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post #201 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash

Okay, since you don't like my example, let's use yours. "if the deity came down from on high to tell you that you were going to make decisions that result in you wearing underpants on your head when you die..." If this unlikely scenario were to take place, according to the Muslim concept of free will, you WOULD be able to make decisions other than those that would lead to that end result. But God would already know beforehand his informing you would have that result. So even if you ended up not having "underpants on your head when you died" God would have known that that would happen beforehand.

For example, if God were to tell you that tomorrow someone will ask you such and such a question and you will answer "yes." Then when tomorrow came you would have the free will to answer "no." But if you answered "no," God would already know that that is what would happen.

The thing is, God does not do such things, especially not on an individual basis and never with enough preciseness for the cause and effect to be recognized beforehand. So there is not really that much confusion in practice. You see, by the actors in the events, that is us humans, knowing what is going to happen, that knowledge changes the system resulting in a different thing happening and if they find out about that, again that knowledge changes the system, etc... ad infinitum. An infinite loop. As long as we are kept in the dark, there is no problem because the predestination does not interfere in the free will.

Consider this example: A man was walking in the market when he sees someone noone else can see. He recognizes the person as the Angel of Death and recognizes a surprised look on his face. In shock, and fearing for his life, the man consults an advisor who tells him to leave for a distant country immediately. The man does so and the day he arrives in the distant country he dies while walking through the marketplace. When the Angel of Death comes to him, he asks him why he had appeared surprised when he saw him the first time. The angel of death replies that he was surprised because he knew that he was supposed to take that man's life in the far away marketplace so many days later and he didn't understand what he was doing so far away from there.

In this example, the man of his own free will chooses to travel to the distant country, but that he will do so is already known.

In short the Islamic concept of free will and predestination is that both exist but they do not tamper with each other. They are completely separate phenomenon running parallel to each other, arriving at the same location but without having any affect on the other. If knowledge of predestination were to interfere in the life of the one with free will, you would have the problems that you keep referring to.




I love latin!
Utinam barbari spatium proprium tuum invadant!
Sorry, couldn't help it...

In your interpretation of my example God lies. If the diety told the truth that the individual was going to die with underwear on his head, then that individual is going to die with underwear on his head and he has no choice in the matter. No choice = no free will. By simply existing, a deity with full knowledge of the future prevents anyone from having free will because within his (absolutely correct) view the story is told in only one way. The peons may feel that they have free will but they don't they cannot make choices outside of the way it happens.

Look at it this way: The events of yesterday have past, you know what has happened and it happens in only one way. This is the way a deity with the powers you describe would see all time. You know how your friend Michael is going to react to your comment about his shoes. Micheal in this history has no free will, he cannot in your rememberance do something different (he cannot in fact yesterday do something different), he has no free will yesterday. For a God of the sort you believe in, everyday is yesterday... the events are known actions by anyone and nothing can be changed -- there is no free will (and God realizes this)....
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #202 of 229
Yes, I am "walking in Faith" -- although when "walking in faith" is reduced to a 'general level of niceness' I'm not certain that means much, culturally. At any rate, the part about 'My sheep hear My voice' is the operative idea here, not something to really argue over.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #203 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

In your interpretation of my example God lies.

Certainly. Your (original-the underwear one)example is analogous to dividing by zero. It can't happen so it doesn't. God doesn't come down and tell anything about the future that is so specific that someone might be able to change their decision based on the knowledge. It would necessarily cause either free will or predestination to break down.

Consider this. Suppose I had a machine or some magic that could "see" the future. I see with it that a certain person has done a certain thing. Does that mean, because of my knowledge I am controlling him? I don't think so. What the person does is by his own free will, I am just "watching" him.
Take it a step further. What if I don't even know that person and have no means of communicating with him?



**Still thinking about your past like future analogy**
post #204 of 229
No it doesn't mean you are controlling him, it just means the events are set, and there is no alternative course. Without the possibility of an alternate course, there can be no free will. He may think he has free will, but his decisions are set -- in order for you to have observed him doing something in the future, he is now destined to do everything leading up to that point. He cannot make choices other than the ones that led him to that final point. Knowledge of that final point locks all actors into their specified roles with no chance of change, and no free will...
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post #205 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sondjata

So much wrong. So little time.
Horus is not represented as the "solar god" he is hawk headed in his normal representation.
Amen-Ra is associated with the sun. The Khemetic Calendar which dates back to 4000BC, prior to the rise of the first dynasty does indeed associate the major neters with various constelations but should not be mistaken as representative of the various mythos involving those characters.


right, so virtually every culture arrives at the same constellations, same iconography, same meaning and same religious stories based on the astrological characters, and somehow the Egyptians managed to do all this in complete isolation from the rest of the world and end up with the same.

Yep, thats almost as stupid as thinking Satan created all the other religions to fool people from hearing the message when Jesus arrived.
post #206 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sondjata

So much wrong. So little time.
Horus is not represented as the "solar god" he is hawk headed in his normal representation.
Amen-Ra is associated with the sun. The Khemetic Calendar which dates back to 4000BC, prior to the rise of the first dynasty does indeed associate the major neters with various constelations but should not be mistaken as representative of the various mythos involving those characters.


Horus was represented as a multitude of different things over the Egyptian era, but originally was not even of Egyptian origin. - especially representing the solar and moon gods, and a ton of other concepts mostly relating to aspects of the sun but also including the most popular modern icon as a falcon or hawk headed man.

So there
post #207 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

right, so virtually every culture arrives at the same constellations, same iconography, same meaning and same religious stories based on the astrological characters, and somehow the Egyptians managed to do all this in complete isolation from the rest of the world and end up with the same.

Yep, thats almost as stupid as thinking Satan created all the other religions to fool people from hearing the message when Jesus arrived.


Well given that everyone is looking at the same stars, that people make out the same constelations shouldn't really surprise anyone. Also given that the "scholars" of the time would bring such knowledge to other parts of the world is also not implausible. Greece is full of Egyptian knowledge and much of them admitted as much. Of course then I could argue that Egyptians must have shown Mayans how to build pyramids since isolationist knowledge is impossible to come by. Right?
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But this ain't really about Hussein
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As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
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post #208 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

Horus was represented as a multitude of different things over the Egyptian era, but originally was not even of Egyptian origin. - especially representing the solar and moon gods, and a ton of other concepts mostly relating to aspects of the sun but also including the most popular modern icon as a falcon or hawk headed man.

So there

Modern? relative to?
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George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
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As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
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post #209 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sondjata

Well given that everyone is looking at the same stars, that people make out the same constelations shouldn't really surprise anyone.

what, you bordering on ridiculous now. Take 5 people who have no interest in astronomy and get them to look at Leo. How many will see a lion? Move them over to Virgo, How many will see a mother?

If you had one correct guess, it would be a lucky. For two people to agree would be a miracle - For all 5 to 'see' a lion or a mother would be an act of God.

would every major civilization see the bright stars as a lion if it didn't have some common origin passed down? Why is it a lion anyway? Does it look like a lion? No - there is a common underlying reason why these stars were attributed to a lion.



So, that most religions including the Egyptian see Virgo as a mother, Leo as a lion, Draco as a dragon, bootes as an 'Adam' - must mean that they all have a common ancestry in some other religion or astrological system which was passed down to them before their civilization started, or they adopted as their people came into contact with other civilizations.

Quote:
Also given that the "scholars" of the time would bring such knowledge to other parts of the world is also not implausible. Greece is full of Egyptian knowledge and much of them admitted as much. Of course then I could argue that Egyptians must have shown Mayans how to build pyramids since isolationist knowledge is impossible to come by. Right?

Exactly, there is no such thing as an original religion. They all form and develop by incorperating ideas from the cultures they merge with or conqueor, and just as much as they incorperate ideas, they also export them aswell.

So every religion is a different expression of the same underlying thing.
post #210 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sondjata

Modern? relative to?

the earliest non-egyptian representations of Horus as a victorius leader, later incorperated into the egyptian religion as a sun-god.
post #211 of 229
post #212 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

horus's (Hori?)

http://members.aol.com/egyptart/hormyth.html


* Cult Center: Throughout Egypt.

* Attributes: The name Horus comes from the Egyptian word Hor, which translates as 'face'. We find him worshipped as Mekhenti-irry which translates as 'He who has on his brow Two Eyes', the sun and moon representing his eyes. On nights when there is no moon we find him worshipped as Mekhenti-en-irty, 'He who on his brow has no eyes', in this form he was considered the god of the blind.


And predynastic Egypt arose from where?

And I don't know why people insist on using the Greek designations of Egyptian Neters .
As sure as the Bible is missing books
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and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
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or buildings falling in flames
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As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
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post #213 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

the earliest non-egyptian representations of Horus as a victorius leader, later incorperated into the egyptian religion as a sun-god.


Ahh.. didn't see this post first. Egypt is the "child" of the cultures from the south, Nubia, Ethiopia..Which I have never denied. None of this disproves the linear relationship of transmittal of certain concepts into Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
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As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
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post #214 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

what, you bordering on ridiculous now. Take 5 people who have no interest in astronomy and get them to look at Leo. How many will see a lion? Move them over to Virgo, How many will see a mother?

If you had one correct guess, it would be a lucky. For two people to agree would be a miracle - For all 5 to 'see' a lion or a mother would be an act of God.

would every major civilization see the bright stars as a lion if it didn't have some common origin passed down? Why is it a lion anyway? Does it look like a lion? No - there is a common underlying reason why these stars were attributed to a lion.



So, that most religions including the Egyptian see Virgo as a mother, Leo as a lion, Draco as a dragon, bootes as an 'Adam' - must mean that they all have a common ancestry in some other religion or astrological system which was passed down to them before their civilization started, or they adopted as their people came into contact with other civilizations.



Exactly, there is no such thing as an original religion. They all form and develop by incorperating ideas from the cultures they merge with or conqueor, and just as much as they incorperate ideas, they also export them aswell.

So every religion is a different expression of the same underlying thing.

No. not ridiculous at all really. Egyptian "Adam"? Anyway. This would be why I brought up the Mayans. Would the Mayans see a lion? Did they even know what a lion is? Why no horses in the mythology of the "new world"? Of course because they never saw one.

To develop the art (or science) of astrology there has to be a level of free time to notice consistent patterns. Heck I noticed the Big Dipper before I was told it was called the big dipper.

Of course there is a building upon of religious concepts but there are originals because at some point someone had to think of it first (for their group). Egypt's came from the people to it's south.
As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
Reply
As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
Reply
post #215 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sondjata

Why no horses in the mythology of the "new world"? Of course because they never saw one.

That strickly speaking isn't true... It is thought that the early americans in fact killed off the wild horses that roamed the continent...
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post #216 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sondjata

No. not ridiculous at all really. Egyptian "Adam"? Anyway. This would be why I brought up the Mayans. Would the Mayans see a lion? Did they even know what a lion is? Why no horses in the mythology of the "new world"? Of course because they never saw one.

To develop the art (or science) of astrology there has to be a level of free time to notice consistent patterns. Heck I noticed the Big Dipper before I was told it was called the big dipper.

Of course there is a building upon of religious concepts but there are originals because at some point someone had to think of it first (for their group). Egypt's came from the people to it's south.

http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Bootes.html

An egyptian Adam. I think the issue is that you are taking the modern common Christian explanation of things and (rightly) calling BS. However, just because there is an almost universal common misconception of things, doesn't mean that there isn't a more valid answer. The constellation that is now called bootes, is represented by a herdsman or groundworker - agriculture. Now, there will be a stronger conception of this in some religions than others depending on how far from the original idea you travel. In Judaism Bootes was the ancient framework that the story of Adam was hung on. Bootes becomes the first man when we read the story that was developed in the OT from the underlying common story known to all about the herdsman bootes. But if Bootes was not known as such, then the story of Adam possibly would have developed in a different way, Maybe not at all. In Christian mythology, bootes developed to become Joseph next to Virgo Mary. But Bootes wouldn't have likely become Joseph if the original icon of Bootes was an aeroplane, or Virgo represented the annunaki mothership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_constellation

Its interesting that in a civilization that was independant from the middle east, Egypt, and Europe, some of the constellations they saw were completely different. It shows that if you don't have syncretization between cultures, you dont end up with common ideas.

http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/UrsaMajor.html
Yet for this constellation, which is the oldest known, the civilizations including the chinese, arrived at the same idea.

So you saw the Big Dipper. Did you see all of it, or just the bright stars? Did you see Minor as well? Did you attribute these to bears with a herdsman chasing them around - or did you not see that connection until someone told you?

So who thought of the originals? the constellation of the big dipper goes back over 10000 years to civilizations we know nothing about. Some constellations are but a few hundred years old, but we still know the old ones, so somewhere, someones original idea tens of thousands of years ago contributed to development of Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek and modern American theology.
post #217 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

That strickly speaking isn't true... It is thought that the early americans in fact killed off the wild horses that roamed the continent...

One word - Pegasus.
post #218 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sondjata

Ahh.. didn't see this post first. Egypt is the "child" of the cultures from the south, Nubia, Ethiopia..Which I have never denied. None of this disproves the linear relationship of transmittal of certain concepts into Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Im not trying to disprove that at all, because it is very true
post #219 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sondjata

[I]


And I don't know why people insist on using the Greek designations of Egyptian Neters .

well words are just labels so that we all know the common idea we are talking about. If you want to give their egyptian names then go ahead, but we wont have a clue what you are talking about and will probably ignore you. But why dont we start writing in hyroglyphs too?
post #220 of 229
Why's everybody having a debate about hypothetical if not fictional entities and phenomena?
post #221 of 229
I guess it's just a kind of hobby.
post #222 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

Why's everybody having a debate about hypothetical if not fictional entities and phenomena?

It can help some people.
post #223 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/Bootes.html

An egyptian Adam. I think the issue is that you are taking the modern common Christian explanation of things and (rightly) calling BS. However, just because there is an almost universal common misconception of things, doesn't mean that there isn't a more valid answer. The constellation that is now called bootes, is represented by a herdsman or groundworker - agriculture. Now, there will be a stronger conception of this in some religions than others depending on how far from the original idea you travel. In Judaism Bootes was the ancient framework that the story of Adam was hung on. Bootes becomes the first man when we read the story that was developed in the OT from the underlying common story known to all about the herdsman bootes. But if Bootes was not known as such, then the story of Adam possibly would have developed in a different way, Maybe not at all. In Christian mythology, bootes developed to become Joseph next to Virgo Mary. But Bootes wouldn't have likely become Joseph if the original icon of Bootes was an aeroplane, or Virgo represented the annunaki mothership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_constellation

Its interesting that in a civilization that was independant from the middle east, Egypt, and Europe, some of the constellations they saw were completely different. It shows that if you don't have syncretization between cultures, you dont end up with common ideas.

http://www.winshop.com.au/annew/UrsaMajor.html
Yet for this constellation, which is the oldest known, the civilizations including the chinese, arrived at the same idea.

So you saw the Big Dipper. Did you see all of it, or just the bright stars? Did you see Minor as well? Did you attribute these to bears with a herdsman chasing them around - or did you not see that connection until someone told you?

So who thought of the originals? the constellation of the big dipper goes back over 10000 years to civilizations we know nothing about. Some constellations are but a few hundred years old, but we still know the old ones, so somewhere, someones original idea tens of thousands of years ago contributed to development of Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek and modern American theology.


1) I fail to see how your first link shows an Egyptian "Adam". {Perhaps I missed something.

2) We arent arguing here. The Chinese do exactly what would be expected if one had "original' thought. Thus underscoring my point on Judaism. So no argument here

3) As far as the "dipper" is concerned. I'm not an astrologist and don't keep track of constellations. my only point was that patterns in the sky can be determined by anyone or any culture paying attention. We would expect "high cultures" to have a more robust mapping of constellations than that of an individual like myself.
As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
Reply
As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
Reply
post #224 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

That strickly speaking isn't true... It is thought that the early americans in fact killed off the wild horses that roamed the continent...


Well, n ot being an expert on South or North American anthropology I can't say for sure but my understanding is that the horse was introduced into the Americas by Europeans.
As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
Reply
As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
Reply
post #225 of 229
Sondjata, horses were native to the Americas but died out 13 to 15 thousand years ago. Here's an interesting article about it that claims the horses that went extinct in the Americas are genetically identical to the ones brought back to the Americas in the late 1400s by the Europeans.

http://www.saplonline.org/wild_horses_native.htm

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #226 of 229
Thanks. The same is generally true for Lions as well. But the problem is that generally speaking "high civilizations" the world over are not that old so the fact that horses (and lions) were not around during the "formative" years is important vis-a-vis animals being tied to constellations.
As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
Reply
As sure as the Bible is missing books
George Bush is missing sense
and violence breeds more violence
But this ain't really about Hussein
Regime change
Crashing Airplanes
or buildings falling in flames
Reply
post #227 of 229
HOLY CRAP!

I've just read todays article at New Scientist, in which Cosmologists are working on an idea that Space does not exist at all.

The world is catching me up. Shit.
post #228 of 229
Linky?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #229 of 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR

Linky?

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...mg19125645.800

now you need a subscription to read past the opening paragraph. Needless to say, upon reading it, I went straight out and got one.
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