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All old Israel/Lebanon threads merged in here  

post #1 of 882
6/27/06 at 8:27pm
Thread Starter 
Palestinians militants have kidnapped an Israeli soldier and Israel is retaliating by taking out civilian infrastructure as collective punishment.

click 1
Quote:
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israeli troops entered southern Gaza and planes attacked two bridges and a power station, knocking out electricity in most of the coastal strip early Wednesday and stepping up the pressure on Palestinian militants holding captive a 19-year-old Israeli soldier.
...
Early Wednesday, Israeli planes fired at least nine missiles at Gaza's only power station, cutting electricity to much of the Gaza Strip, Palestinian security officials said. The station's three funtioning turbines and a gasoline reservoir were engulfed in enormous flames that firefighters were unable to control.

The attack raised the specter of a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, as water pumps in the strip are powered by electricity.

Israeli military officials said Prime Minister Ehud Olmert approved a "limited operation" for southern Gaza, aimed at "terrorist infrastructure." The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to reporters.

click 2
Quote:
Israel had warned of a massive military assault if he was not freed and its tanks have been massing along the border with Gaza for several days.

It is unclear how many troops are being used in the incursion, launched from the Kerem Shalom crossing near southern Gaza.

The assault on Gaza marks Israel's first major incursion into the territory since it withdrew its soldiers and settlers last year, ending almost 40 years of occupation.

Now I know this is a crazy though, but I'm betting Israel somehow manages to wind up with more territory.

Geneva Conventions - Protocol 2
Quote:
Part IV. Civilian Population

Art. 14. Protection of objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population

Starvation of civilians as a method of combat is prohibited. It is therefore prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless for that purpose, objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population such as food-stuffs, agricultural areas for the production of food-stuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #2 of 882
6/27/06 at 9:04pm
I cant blame Israel, they have shown a lot of restraint, they should just go grab the gaza and wall it off. Palestinians just dont get it never will but who is surprised? Extreme Islam is what it is. Making sure palestine stays in poverty ,chaos and has no future for its children. They hate Israel more then they love their children hence no future.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #3 of 882
6/27/06 at 9:34pm
Thread Starter 
"Palestinians" act as a single, cohesive entity therefore when one group of Palestinians does something wrong the entirety deserves retaliation?
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #4 of 882
6/27/06 at 10:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
\\"Palestinians\\" act as a single, cohesive entity therefore when one group of Palestinians does something wrong the entirety deserves retaliation?


Brilliant.

Err,.. why involve the whole of Israel in this action when it\\'s only a few individual soldiers that took down a transformer station in Gaza?
post #5 of 882
6/27/06 at 11:14pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
I cant blame Israel

There. You said it. It doesn't matter that entirely civilian infrastructure is being destroyed by Israel, it doesn't matter that such things are STRICTLY PROHIBITED BY EVERY INTERNATIONAL LAW THE HUMAN RACE HAS CREATED THAT DEALS WITH THAT, you can't blame Israel.

When they throw bombs in towns, you ask why aren't they fighting the military. When they fight the military and the other party responds by fighting the civilian population, you say you can't blame them.

That type of automatic bias no matter what the mitigating evidence shows, is commonly known as a state of denial which some people refer to as insanity. But I'm sure you'll find a way to blame 'extreme islam' for that too, and put all Palestinians into one shoebox while you're at it.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #6 of 882
6/27/06 at 11:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
Brilliant.

Err,.. why involve the whole of Israel in this action when it\\'s only a few individual soldiers that took down a transformer station in Gaza?

On the behest of the PM. You know, ordered to do so by the guy who's the head honcho.

Easy concept.
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
post #7 of 882
6/27/06 at 11:32pm
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
On the behest of the PM. You know, ordered to do so by the guy who\\'s the head honcho.

Easy concept.



What about the 50% or so that didn\\'t vote for him? Or the 20% in Gaza that didn\\'t vote Hamas? Why oh why must they too suffer collectively?
post #8 of 882
6/27/06 at 11:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
What about the 50% or so that didn\\'t vote for him? Or the 20% in Gaza that didn\\'t vote Hamas? Why oh why must they too suffer collectively?

Screw 'em, I guess. Right?
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
post #9 of 882
6/27/06 at 11:49pm
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
Screw \\'em, I guess. Right?


At least until the next election cycle, if Hamas or Fatah will allow it.
post #10 of 882
6/27/06 at 11:53pm
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
At least until the next election cycle, if Hamas or Fatah will allow it.

... or Kadima.
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
post #11 of 882
6/27/06 at 11:55pm
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
... or Kadima.

Why would you say that?
post #12 of 882
6/28/06 at 12:05am
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
Why would you say that?

I'd say that because I don't think this will end until Israel just finishes the job. The possibility of another election cycle is just as dependent on Hamas and Fatah as it is on Kadima (or whomever is the next ruling party in Israel, which I suspect will fall on the right of centrism).

It seems (to me) that Israel, at this point in time, are playing to win.
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
post #13 of 882
6/28/06 at 12:16am
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
I'd say that because I don't think this will end until Israel just finishes the job. The possibility of another election cycle is just as dependent on Hamas and Fatah as it is on Kadima (or whomever is the next ruling party in Israel, which I suspect will fall on the right of centrism).

It seems (to me) that Israel, at this point in time, are playing to win.


Playing to win what? Their kidnaped soldier? The halt of the daily sniping at the Israeli citizens? The halt of kassam missile bombardment of Israeli cities? Is there more to this damn Joooooish conspiracy that I missed?
post #14 of 882
6/28/06 at 12:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
Playing to win what? Their kidnaped soldier? The halt of the daily sniping at the Israeli citizens? The halt of kassam missile bombardment of Israeli cities? Is there more to this damn Joooooish conspiracy that I missed?

Are you intentially obtuse? You play the part well, if so.

Mika?
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
post #15 of 882
6/28/06 at 12:27am
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
Are you intentially obtuse? You play the part well, if so.

Mika?

Wtf are you talking about? How about you answer the question. What exactly are they playing to win, mr mod.
post #16 of 882
6/28/06 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
Wtf are you talking about? How about you answer the question. What exactly are they playing to win, mr mod.

Territory amigo, territory.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #17 of 882
6/28/06 at 10:45am
CNN Breaking News:

"-- Israeli warplanes flew over the home of Syrian President Bashar Assad,
Israeli officials said. The move apparently is aimed at pressuring the Syrian
leader to help get a captured Israeli soldier released."

Even Moe is getting a little concerned about the ME situation.
"some catch on faster than others"
"some catch on faster than others"
post #18 of 882
6/28/06 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
CNN Breaking News:

"-- Israeli warplanes flew over the home of Syrian President Bashar Assad,
Israeli officials said. The move apparently is aimed at pressuring the Syrian
leader to help get a captured Israeli soldier released."


hahah!

Man, these guys are fucking lunatics.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #19 of 882
6/28/06 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
Even Moe is getting a little concerned about the ME situation.



(check your private messages, by the way)
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
post #20 of 882
6/28/06 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Territory amigo, territory.

Nonsense. This is clearly all about the missing soldier.

The Army has gone all out to save one of its own. Yes, they're crossing the line (literally and figuratively) but I'm not sure they could be stopped even if everyone wanted them to.

If you think this is somehow a situation specific to Israel, you've obviously never seen a Police Officer get shot or kidnapped in Toronto, New York or L.A.

Do yourself a favour and rent Harrison Ford's Fugitive, and watch what Chicago PD tries to do to Richard Kimball, on behalf of one of their own.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
post #21 of 882
6/28/06 at 12:07pm
Thread Starter 
How the hell can Israel be defended on this? It is madness.

Provoking Syria? Destroying civilian infrastructure and risking humanitarian crisis?

This is ridiculous.
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #22 of 882
6/28/06 at 12:12pm
Who's defending it?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
post #23 of 882
6/28/06 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
Nonsense. This is clearly all about the missing soldier.

Yes. He was hiding under the bridge and sometimes in the power plant.


Quote:
The Army has gone all out to save one of its own. Yes, they're crossing the line (literally and figuratively) but I'm not sure they could be stopped even if everyone wanted them to.

Usually those things are done through negotiations. The Palestinians were not saying they're going to kill him; their demand was freedom for their women and children in Israeli jails. Clearly, this is just a pretext for all-out bombing of Palestinians for no particular reason other than to hurt them.

Quote:
If you think this is somehow a situation specific to Israel, you've obviously never seen a Police Officer get shot or kidnapped in Toronto, New York or L.A.

I live in Chicago - last year alone we had 593 murders, of which at least 30 were cops. I sure as shit have seen cops murdered and kidnapped but I can't remember the last time the US government sent the army to bomb our power plants!

Quote:
Do yourself a favour and rent Harrison Ford's Fugitive, and watch what Chicago PD tries to do to Richard Kimball, on behalf of one of their own.

No thanks. You go ahead and watch movies. I'll stick with real life, where there are laws and consequences.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #24 of 882
6/28/06 at 1:13pm
Hey they elected the terror group Hamas to run the country, So are they a legal law abiding govt? or just more thugs and still a terror group. I would say thugs wanting a war and thats why hiding in Syria. If Hamas wants war Israel just may give it to them. If they left Israel alone there wouldnt be a problem but they have never left Israel alone in the past 50 yrs. If Hamas wants war Israel just may give them one.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #25 of 882
6/28/06 at 1:26pm
This is how they provoke and start a war, and then use the propaganda mouth to blame it on others and play the innocent victim:

Quote:
CNN) -- Syria says it chased Israeli warplanes out of its airspace Wednesday after what it called a "hostile and provocative act," Syrian state television reported Wednesday.

Israeli jets flew over the country home of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in Ladekye, the Israeli military reported. Israeli television reported that al-Assad was at home at the time.

A banner on Syrian television reported that the Syrian air force intercepted the Israeli aircraft and "forced them to separate and leave the area." It called the Israeli airspace breach "an unacceptable, hostile and provocative act."

It's unbelievable what I'm hearing for the last 3 days. Does this shit never stop?

link
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #26 of 882
6/28/06 at 6:49pm
and the cycle continues:

Hamas leaders arrested; Israeli executed
AP - 1 hour, 1 minute ago

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israeli forces rounded up Palestinian Cabinet ministers and lawmakers from the Islamic Hamas, increasing pressure on the Islamic militants to release a captured Israeli soldier, and witnesses said tanks moved into northern Gaza, widening Israel's largest military operation in the year since Israel pulled out of the seaside territory.

What next?
"some catch on faster than others"
"some catch on faster than others"
post #27 of 882
6/28/06 at 7:56pm
Quote:
Originally posted by southside grabowski
Israeli forces rounded up Palestinian Cabinet ministers and lawmakers from the Islamic Hamas

Also, against international law that guarantees the immunity of the elected representatives.


Quote:
What next?

Exactly.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #28 of 882
6/28/06 at 8:17pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Also, against international law that guarantees the immunity of the elected representatives.




Exactly.

Law doesnt apply in war just ask Gerorge Bush. But I do wonder why no one is yelling about the Israelis that were murdered? or the one who was just executed? Hamas asked for this.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #29 of 882
6/28/06 at 8:22pm
What, Israelis, that were murdered? I only see something about a soldier being murdered (unconfirmed too), and that is not something to bomb power plants and bridges and round up elected representatives for.

Not to mention the flying of jets in Syria, threatening its President.

Read what they're doing:

Quote:
Air strikes continued throughout Wednesday, with missiles striking a road near the Khan Younis refugee camp and the premises of the Islamic University in Gaza City.

Universities? Refugee camps? This is unacceptable and unjustifiable.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #30 of 882
6/29/06 at 3:39am
So now they have seized elected officials and are also saying that targeted assassination - again of elected officials - is on the agenda.

So: Iranian President criticizing a criminal rogue state is "bad".

Same criminal rogue state actively breaking international law, imposing collective punishment and openly threatening assassination of elected leaders is "good".

Right on. Welcome to 'civilization'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #31 of 882
6/29/06 at 3:59am
Look, I don't really have a position on way or another on the Israel / Palestinian showdown (other than the fact that Hamas seems like bad news). Really though, are current events different than how it's been for thousands of years in that portion of the world?

Hell, every nation goes through a time in history where they're the ones expanding, until eventually they're the ones that get dumped on. Look around right now: the US in Iraq, Greeks vs. Turks, North Korea vs. South, China vs. Taiwan, Bosnia, Rwanda, Sudan, etc. etc. etc.

Karma's gonna catch up to everybody eventually. I have a feeling that in a hundred years or so, we'll all be speaking mandarin. Is this really something to get all in a tizzy over?

Unless you have some sort of vested interest in Israel (e.g. wackos convinced "Left Behind" is going to be the way the world ends), who really gives a crap? People have been fighting dirty over bits of land since time began. It's just that now, Israel is being the bully.
The secret of life: Proteins fold up and bind things.
The secret of life: Proteins fold up and bind things.
post #32 of 882
6/29/06 at 6:18am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
So now they have seized elected officials and are also saying that targeted assassination - again of elected officials - is on the agenda.

So: Iranian President criticizing a criminal rogue state is "bad".

Same criminal rogue state actively breaking international law, imposing collective punishment and openly threatening assassination of elected leaders is "good".

Right on. Welcome to 'civilization'.

If these officials were actually involved in terrorism, then they are much worse than, say, Duke Cunningham.

We arrest elected leaders all the time.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #33 of 882
6/29/06 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
If these officials were actually involved in terrorism, then they are much worse than, say, Duke Cunningham.

We arrest elected leaders all the time.

So what's the problem with people targeting your elected leaders then?

And why are people who do so terrorists? Maybe they are really the 'world police'?

Take the London bombings for example - there is now a significant amount of evidence that at least one of the bombers had extensive links with the UK intelligence community (I guess similar links exist between certain alleged 911 perps or certainly 'al Qaeda' and the US admin). Does that mean that the UK government has 'links with terrorism'?

And if so, does it mean that someone who is opposed to this can take the UK officials out - violently if necessary?

I would say yes personally but I don't think you would. I just post this to illustrate the stupidity of your position.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #34 of 882
6/29/06 at 7:38am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
So what's the problem with people targeting your elected leaders then?

And why are people who do so terrorists? Maybe they are really the 'world police'?

Take the London bombings for example - there is now a significant amount of evidence that at least one of the bombers had extensive links with the UK intelligence community (I guess similar links exist between certain alleged 911 perps or certainly 'al Qaeda' and the US admin). Does that mean that the UK government has 'links with terrorism'?

And if so, does it mean that someone who is opposed to this can take the UK officials out - violently if necessary?

I would say yes personally but I don't think you would. I just post this to illustrate the stupidity of your position.

If the UK intelligence community was linked to the 911 bombings (i.e. terrorist acts in our country), then yes - we could go over there and trash them.

Who cares what the UK intelligence community does in their own country? Not me.

In international relations, might makes right. What would you have Israel do in this situation? Just beg for the people back like Carter did?

Some scientists did experiments looking for the most successful strategy in power struggles with other people - the strategy that won out was "be nice normally, but retaliate against attacks with utter savagry", which is what the Israelis are doing.

I just don't understand why the Palistinians are so stupid to mess up the peace process.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #35 of 882
6/29/06 at 7:49am
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I just don't understand why the Palistinians are so stupid to mess up the peace process.

You don't understand because you cannot face the truth as you have been conditioned to see Israel as never being able to do wrong.

When it does do wrong - as it very often does whether it be the present example or the infamous dancing Israelis on 911 - you cannot see it. You are blind to it.

You do know something is wrong though, that something 'does not gel' and even though you blame the Palestinians (who else is there to blame after all) for every action, still it does not add up and you still have to say 'I do not understand'.

You are right of course. You don't understand and you never will.

Not that it matters.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #36 of 882
6/29/06 at 7:55am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
You don't understand because you cannot face the truth as you have been conditioned to see Israel as never being able to do wrong.

When it does do wrong - as it very often does whether it be the present example or the infamous dancing Israelis on 911 - you cannot see it. You are blind to it.

You do know something is wrong though, that something 'does not gel' and even though you blame the Palestinians (who else is there to blame after all) for every action, still it does not add up and you still have to say 'I do not understand'.

You are right of course. You don't understand and you never will.

Not that it matters.

So what made the Palistinians kidnap the soldier? Israel and Palistinian relations looked like they were getting a lot better, with Hamas recognising Israel and all.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #37 of 882
6/29/06 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
So what made the Palistinians kidnap the soldier? Israel and Palistinian relations looked like they were getting a lot better, with Hamas recognising Israel and all.

Try: innocent family picknicking on beach getting blown away and then the Palestinians themselves getting blamed for it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #38 of 882
6/29/06 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Try: innocent family picknicking on beach getting blown away and then the Palestinians themselves getting blamed for it.

That\\'s Pallywood for you. Find a better director.
post #39 of 882
6/29/06 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
This is how they provoke and start a war, and then use the propaganda mouth to blame it on others and play the innocent victim:



It\\'s unbelievable what I\\'m hearing for the last 3 days. Does this shit never stop?

It\\'s an outrage I tell you.

That someone on the jihadi side should bare some responsibility for what have been in all intent and purpose acts of war against Israel, it\\'s an outrage! That past charade of \\"plausible\\" jihadi deniability should come to an end, who do those Israelis think they are. Sure acts of war have been committed, but is that reason for Israel to hit back with EVERYTHING it has? Israel needs to treat this jihadist population as any country treats another country it is at war with -- supply them with electricity, gas, telephone service, collect taxes, and perform any other duty that might contribute to the enemy\\'s continued hostilities. It\\'s long overdue for the Israelis to bare full responsibility for continuous instigation of war like actions against them.
post #40 of 882
6/29/06 at 9:17am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Try: innocent family picknicking on beach getting blown away and then the Palestinians themselves getting blamed for it.

More spin? its pretty much fact Israel had just came in on that beach because of rockets being shot into Israel, did you forget? also that beach was mined by Hamas to get the Israeli's if they did it again. Segovius has selective memory. Fact is Palestinians came in and killed two soldiers and kidnapped one. I love how Segovius ignores that. Perhaps Hamas should stay out of Israel and stop kidnapping folks. Hamas and or Syria are provoking Israel so dont start crying because Israel responds.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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