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All old Israel/Lebanon threads merged in here - Page 5  

post #161 of 882
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Sovereign countries respect international law when it is concurrent with the interest of more powerful countries or when it otherwise suits them.

In the case of Israel, the US and some others, yes. But most countries actually respect International Law, respect decissions by it's courts in conflicts of interests, and adjust their policies in accordance with it.

Most countries respect international law when it suits and noty when it doens't in this troubled world, some countries are under a mignifying glass such as Israel or the US, so they get noticed more.

40 years of occupation and closure, currently 400,000 illegal settlers doing what they do (or what they are supposed to do). Currently, half the Palestinian (democratically elected) government kidnapped. Add in, missle strikes on universities, bombing of power stations, roads and bridges consquent loss of water, loss of food etc etc etc - warning to evacuation,. - who know how many dead in last week. And it seems to me the magnifying glass really is not really being applied around there. It's also pretty much not around in Iraq either.
post #162 of 882
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Originally posted by OfficerDigby
40 years of occupation and closure, currently 400,000 illegal settlers doing what they do (or what they are supposed to do). Currently, half the Palestinian (democratically elected) government kidnapped. Add in, missle strikes on universities, bombing of power stations, loss of water, loss of food etc etc etc - warning to evacuation,. - who know how many dead in last week. And it seems to me the magnifying glass really is not really being applied around there. It's also pretty much not around in Iraq either.

Right.

Terrorism is what happens at the end of the road of systematic repression, persecution and oppression: when people who have nothing left to lose and nothing left to live for still haven't had their spirit crushed.

That's their real crime - that they didn't just roll over and die underneath the fascist jackboot.

They still are prepared to fight and are undefeated and defiant: the ultimate crime, the ultimate insult. They didn't just die and disappear from history.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #163 of 882
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Originally posted by segovius
Right.

Terrorism is what happens at the end of the road of systematic repression, persecution and oppression: when people who have nothing left to lose and nothing left to live for still haven\\'t had their spirit crushed.

That\\'s their real crime - that they didn\\'t just roll over and die underneath the fascist jackboot.

They still are prepared to fight and are undefeated and defiant: the ultimate crime, the ultimate insult. They didn\\'t just die and disappear from history.


Jester, you might want to read up on the history of Jihadi attacks on Jews in the region. As it is, your ignorant rants are just that - ignorant rants.
post #164 of 882
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Originally posted by occam whisker
Jester, you might want to read up on the history of Jihadi attacks on Jews in the region. As it is, your ignorant rants are just that - ignorant rants.


Now, now, now!

We could talk about some of your viewpoints now couldn't we?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
post #165 of 882
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Originally posted by jimmac
Now, now, now!

We could talk about some of your viewpoints now couldn\\'t we?


Sure. But not on this thread.
post #166 of 882
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Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
I don't make them out to be more peaceful, they are less atrocious than the alternatives.

Funny, according to several polls the people of the world view the US and Israel as the biggest threaths to world peace.

And you still continue to lump all others into the same box. A lot of nations have never started a war. Their common denominator is not that they are "liberal democracies".



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The horrors committed by the Khmer-Rouges were their responsibility alone.

That's pretty simplistic. Of course it is their responsibility. But to be able to understand such events one has to look beyond that. Let's talk about why Rwanda happened. The structural reasons behind. Belgium suddenly pops to mind again.


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Dismantle the police in a country and see if people build trust in the system or have any willingness to abide by the law.
The system is only trusted when it has teeth.

We are not talking about not having sanctions. There are plenty of efficient sanctions in international politics, many efficient ones don't have to do with violence. But still, I'm not ruling out military sanctions. I never once said that international law should not be upheld with military force. It is today.


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Most countries respect international law when it suits and noty when it doens't in this troubled world, some countries are under a mignifying glass such as Israel or the US, so they get noticed more.

Do you really believe that? Israel is just being noticed more? No, most countries abide by international law because their people expect it.


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Some places need less force than other, but the monopoly of organised armed force by the sovereign state exists also where you live (if I recall, somewhere in Scandinavia).

Ofcourse, thats how stats work. But why is it that some places need less force?


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Targetting enemy infrastructures is a common retaliation to an armed attack.

Targeting civilan infrastructure excessively and without millitary gains is clearly criminal. This is collective civilian punishment.


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That is your speculation on the matter. I don't agree woth it.
As said previoulsy, should the Palestinians release the soldier and stop lauching Kassam rockets, the Israeli attack would stop.

It's not just my speculations. Israel has done similarly before the kidnapping and the rockets.


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In a liberal democracy individual citizen has the opprtunity to improve the record of the country (an opportunity much less available under other systems of government), as to the various treaties, conventions, and customs which make international law, countries will keep respecting them when it suits them as long as it doesn't hinder their interest or security.

Yes people have more direct influence in democracies, but statistically democracies are only more tolerant against each others. Other than that they are just as, or even more, diverging in their level of aggression as other systems.

Other factors seem far more important. For instance, the level of dependency on resources from other countries. It's all much more complicated the simply being a "liberal democracy", which in it self is a misleading grouping of extremely different cultures and systems of government.
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #167 of 882
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Originally posted by OfficerDigby
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Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Sovereign countries respect international law when it is concurrent with the interest etc.

40 years of occupation and closure, currently 400,000 illegal settlers doing what they do (or what they are supposed to do).

Eating, sleeping, working, and generally gpoing about their business, nothing illegal about that, unless you'd consider illegal for Jews to live in certain places.
As for the length of occupation, it depends on the length of conflcit. Israel occupied Sinai until Egypt agreed to a peace treaty, the Palestinians don't want a peace treaty, their government wants the destruction of Israel, it comes with coinsequences attached.

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Currently, half the Palestinian (democratically elected) government kidnapped.

No, it is under arrest. When attacked by a hostile force, one could attack them back indiscrimately or one could arrest their leaders and target some of their property. Or you might prefer one did nothing or issue stern warnings or express strong condemnation or ask for a UN resolution, all which also mean doing nothing.

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And it seems to me the magnifying glass really is not really being applied around there.

Really? Have you applied it on China, Russia, Sudan?
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post #168 of 882
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Originally posted by New
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
I don't make them out to be more peaceful, they are less atrocious than the alternatives.

Funny, according to several polls the people of the world view the US and Israel as the biggest threaths to world peace.

I don't know anything about these polls you talk of, how were their questions asked, what was their methodology, and I couldn't care any less if you brought me a poll showing most people in the world believe the highest mountain in the world is Mont Impossiblé.

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And you still continue to lump all others into the same box. A lot of nations have never started a war. Their common denominator is not that they are "liberal democracies".

Starting a war is not atrocious in itself. So compare liberal democracies which never start wars to other countries which never start wars, and liberal democracies which do start wars with other countries which do start wars; that is compare what is comparable.
It all comes down to under what rule would you prefer to live, one like Kazakhstan's or one like Canada's. We do know that when they hear suggestion of being annexed to a future state of Palestine, Israeli Arabs reject it; they must know a thing or two.

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The horrors committed by the Khmer-Rouges were their responsibility alone.

That's pretty simplistic. Of course it is their responsibility. But to be able to understand such events one has to look beyond that. Let's talk about why Rwanda happened. The structural reasons behind. Belgium suddenly pops to mind again.

Ah yes, it's the evil imperialists made'em do it pretxt. Well, no they didn't.
The US in the Vietnam war did not make the Khmer-Rouges commit genocide a few years after the end of the Vietnam war, and the Belgians didn't make the 1994 Rwanda government commit genocide more than thirty years after de-colonisation.

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Dismantle the police in a country and see if people build trust in the system or have any willingness to abide by the law.
The system is only trusted when it has teeth.

We are not talking about not having sanctions.

i am talking about not having a deciding sovereign authority, which you have over individual citizens within a state, but not between states, which is why you cannot compare the rule of law within states to international law between states, the former can be effective and latter is not effective.

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Most countries respect international law when it suits and noty when it doens't in this troubled world, some countries are under a magnifying glass such as Israel or the US, so they get noticed more.

Do you really believe that? Israel is just being noticed more? No, most countries abide by international law because their people expect it.

Like France in Ivory Coast and various other African countries?
Like China, Russia, Soudan?
But don't take my word for it, you could be a little more inquisitive about these and other countries besides just Israel and the US.

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Ofcourse, thats how stats work. But why is it that some places need less force?

Some places have more trouble than others, it doesn't make them inherently bad places.

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Targeting civilan infrastructure excessively and without millitary gains is clearly criminal. This is collective civilian punishment.

No, this is about impeding their ability to hurt.

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That is your speculation on the matter. I don't agree with it.
As said previoulsy, should the Palestinians release the soldier and stop lauching Kassam rockets, the Israeli attack would stop.

It's not just my speculations. Israel has done similarly before the kidnapping and the rockets.

The current operation began as an immediate reaction to the attack on Kerem Shalom, the capture of Gilad Shalit, and the abduction and murder of Eliyahu Asheri, preceded by weeks of rocket attacks on the town of Sderot.
There were similar operations immedialtely after similar attacks.
So your affirmation about IDFs ambitions, Israeli government without any backbone etc. are just your own spectulation.

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Yes people have more direct influence in democracies, but statistically democracies are only more tolerant against each others.

You overlooked their being more tolerant towards their own citizens as well as toward citizens of hostile countries, than the alternatives.

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Other than that they are just as, or even more, diverging in their level of aggression as other systems.

My initial assertion was about liberal democracies tending to be less criminal than others, noting that the worst collective crimes committed by states last centuries were committed by illiberal non-demcoracies, it was not about who fights more (not a crime in itself).

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Other factors seem far more important. For instance, the level of dependency on resources from other countries. It's all much more complicated the simply being a "liberal democracy", which in it self is a misleading grouping of extremely different cultures and systems of government.

I disagree with your assertion, most affluent developed countries tend to be liberal democracies, and one tends to be freer in a liberal democracy than in a country of similar wealth and culture but which is neither liberal nor a demcoracy. And one would fare better if defeated by a liberal democracy than by another.
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post #169 of 882
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Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Eating, sleeping, working, and generally gpoing about their business, nothing illegal about that, unless you'd consider illegal for Jews to live in certain places.
As for the length of occupation, it depends on the length of conflcit. Israel occupied Sinai until Egypt agreed to a peace treaty, the Palestinians don't want a peace treaty, their government wants the destruction of Israel, it comes with coinsequences attached.

You know just as well as others here that settling occupied land is a violation of the Geneva Convention. And it's not like that land was not inhabited aldready. Jews have no more right than others to steal land.

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Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Really? Have you applied it on China, Russia, Sudan?

Are you suddenly saying Israel is similar to these countries?

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Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
I don't know anything about these polls you talk of, how were their questions asked, what was their methodology, and I couldn't care any less if you brought me a poll showing most people in the world believe the highest mountain in the world is Mont Impossiblé.

You know how to use google. Many polls. Done in many ways. Clearly show that most people, all over the world, do not agree with your view of the "nice liberal democracies". The feel that the US and Israel, how these countires conduct their policies, are the biggest threats to world peace. It's really not about facts, but perception. And if you didn't care you wouldn't participate in this discussion.

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Starting a war is not atrocious in itself.

Maybe it is? Depends on how you define the very action of starting a war. But lets say Aiding a military coup in another democracy. Is that an atrocity?

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So compare liberal democracies which never start wars to other countries which never start wars, and liberal democracies which do start wars with other countries which do start wars; that is compare what is comparable.
It all comes down to under what rule would you prefer to live, one like Kazakhstan's or one like Canada's.

Are you asking me? Isn't the USA currently supporting the regime in Kazakhstan? Let's compare living in the militarized Israel to living in Scandinavia. I feel quite lucky to have been born here in the first place.

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We do know that when they hear suggestion of being annexed to a future state of Palestine, Israeli Arabs reject it; they must know a thing or two.

Of course. And seing how Israel has treated the people of the palestinian territories, I can't imagine anyone who really has a choice would want to live there.

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Ah yes, it's the evil imperialists made'em do it pretxt. Well, no they didn't. The US in the Vietnam war did not make the Khmer-Rouges commit genocide a few years after the end of the Vietnam war,

Eh, no, but the events are connected. Without the Vietnam war, I don't Think the KR would have come to power.
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and the Belgians didn't make the 1994 Rwanda government commit genocide more than thirty years after de-colonisation

The concept of Hutu's and Tutsi's is a colonial product.

My point is not that the western "imperialists" did this intentionally. But that these things are connected, and that injustice transplants itself throughout history. If you start doing things right, that too will have long time effects on the following events in a region. Europe is a good example. Justice isn't just "built into" certain kinds of systems of government. Justice and equality is an continuous process. Regarding Israel, current events are in my mind making things worse. Also for Israelis in a longer perspective.

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I am talking about not having a deciding sovereign authority, which you have over individual citizens within a state, but not between states, which is why you cannot compare the rule of law within states to international law between states, the former can be effective and latter is not effective.

That's your opinion. Law within states is also based on an ulitmate threat of force. But as law is accepted and developed, sanctions also civilize.

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Like France in Ivory Coast and various other African countries?
Like China, Russia, Soudan?
But don't take my word for it, you could be a little more inquisitive about these and other countries besides just Israel and the US.

Are we just pointing fingers now? This thread is about Israel. I just returned from Zimbabwe, I'd be happy to discuss that miserable government as well. But not in this thread.

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Some places have more trouble than others, it doesn't make them inherently bad places.

No, but "bad" always originates from something.

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No, this is about impeding their ability to hurt

Cutting of the water supply for over 130 000 people? Hardly. It's about hurting. And making Gaza ungovernable.
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The current operation began as an immediate reaction to the attack on Kerem Shalom, the capture of Gilad Shalit, and the abduction and murder of Eliyahu Asheri, preceded by weeks of rocket attacks on the town of Sderot.
There were similar operations immedialtely after similar attacks.
So your affirmation about IDFs ambitions, Israeli government without any backbone etc. are just your own spectulation

As I said, it's not just my specualtion. I read a lot of political analysis of this conflict, both israeli and international. And from what I read, the IDF has been wanting to do this for some time. Stoping the rockets is a main objective, but the rockets in themselves are an expected effect of the "withdrawal".
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You overlooked their being more tolerant towards their own citizens as well as toward citizens of hostile countries, than the alternatives.

No I'm pointing out that different democracies have very different ways of threating their citizens. Some are quite bad, and I'd rather be a gypsy in India than Slovakia for instance.
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My initial assertion was about liberal democracies tending to be less criminal than others, noting that the worst collective crimes committed by states last centuries were committed by illiberal non-demcoracies, it was not about who fights more (not a crime in itself).

You'll have to define crime and others first. i don't think we even agree about that.
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I disagree with your assertion, most affluent developed countries tend to be liberal democracies, and one tends to be freer in a liberal democracy than in a country of similar wealth and culture but which is neither liberal nor a demcoracy. And one would fare better if defeated by a liberal democracy than by another.

I find it quite natural that the richer and more educated a population becomes, the stronger the demand for participation in government becomes.
But our democracies, some much worse than others, seem little intersted in sharing wealth and progress with the world. Protecting a "certain kind of lifestyle" and a "standard of living" seems to be worth fucking over millions of other people. I see democracies creating their own worst enemies.

The tendency in the US and other places to move away from fundamental princibles of democracy is in itself quite troubling. Democracy doesn't really seems to be in its best state these days.
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #170 of 882
Do Americans hear about how Israel bombed a American built powerstation that cost american taxpayers over 150 million dollars?

This station is also insured by the US state, meaning that more taxdollars will go to it's rebuilding.

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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #171 of 882
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Originally posted by New
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Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Eating, sleeping, working, and generally gpoing about their business, nothing illegal about that, unless you'd consider illegal for Jews to live in certain places.
As for the length of occupation, it depends on the length of conflcit. Israel occupied Sinai until Egypt agreed to a peace treaty, the Palestinians don't want a peace treaty, their government wants the destruction of Israel, it comes with coinsequences attached.

You know just as well as others here that settling occupied land is a violation of the Geneva Convention.

Do you mean that any Israeli individual buying a house in the West Bank is in violation of the Geneva Convention?
Please, kindly show me where:
Geneva Convention

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And it's not like that land was not inhabited aldready. Jews have no more right than others to steal land.

If you claim land-theft the burden of proof is on you (as far as I know the lands in question were either government-owned or legally bought).

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Are you suddenly saying Israel is similar to these countries?

No I don't, that doesn't mean they should be under less scrutiny than Israel.

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You know how to use google. Many polls. Done in many ways. Clearly show that most people, all over the world, do not agree with your view of the "nice liberal democracies". The feel that the US and Israel, how these countires conduct their policies, are the biggest threats to world peace. It's really not about facts, but perception.

I care more about facts than perceptions, thank you.

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And if you didn't care you wouldn't participate in this discussion.

What I care is this sad state of affairs where perceptions are given too much importance, and facts not enough.

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Maybe it is? Depends on how you define the very action of starting a war. But lets say Aiding a military coup in another democracy. Is that an atrocity?

It's too vague a question, all I could say is that it is wrong but not in itself an atrocity.

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Are you asking me? Isn't the USA currently supporting the regime in Kazakhstan?


So? Countries have pragmatic foreign policies, not idealistic ones.

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Let's compare living in the militarized Israel to living in Scandinavia.


Militarized? Are you referring to the compulsory military service and the reserve service (which Switzerland has also)?
Or the fact that Israel happens to be involved in a conflict caused by several neighbouring countries disagreeing with its very existence?

As for comparing them: Scandinavian countries have efficient welfare-states going for them, along with not having their existence questioned by so many. Yet they also have a depressing climate. From my own admittedly subjective vantage point, I find Israelis more optimistic; I have lived most of my youth (but not childhood) in Israel and may yet settle down there for good, I wouldn't consider Scandinavia in a million years, although I have a very good opinion about it.

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We do know that when they hear suggestion of being annexed to a future state of Palestine, Israeli Arabs reject it; they must know a thing or two.

Of course. And seing how Israel has treated the people of the palestinian territories, I can't imagine anyone who really has a choice would want to live there.


Read again, the suggestion was about Israeli Arabs being annexed to a yet to be state of Palestine not to an Israeli-ruled Palestinian territory.

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Ah yes, it's the evil imperialists made'em do it pretxt. Well, no they didn't. The US in the Vietnam war did not make the Khmer-Rouges commit genocide a few years after the end of the Vietnam war,

Eh, no, but the events are connected. Without the Vietnam war, I don't Think the KR would have come to power.


It may have had some impact on the inner Cambodian strife leading to the Khmer-Rouge takeover, or not. Still, the Khmer-Rouges' horrors are their own.

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The concept of Hutu's and Tutsi's is a colonial product.


No, the Hutus were the peasants and the Tutsis more aristorcratic, it is the ideas of a Hutu race and a Tutsi race which were brought by nineteenth century Europeans (first Germans and then Belgians).

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My point is not that the western "imperialists" did this intentionally.


Western imperialists did bad enough on thier own, both intentionally and unintentionally, yet one cannot blame them for everything that happens after they're gone anymore than one can blame all criminal's deeds on his crappy childhood.

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But that these things are connected, and that injustice transplants itself throughout history. If you start doing things right, that too will have long time effects on the following events in a region. Europe is a good example. Justice isn't just "built into" certain kinds of systems of government.


It does seem to fare better in some more than in others.

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Regarding Israel, current events are in my mind making things worse. Also for Israelis in a longer perspective.


I don't think so, Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip and intend to withraw from most of the West Bank as well (mostly because they gave up on using the territories as bargaining chip for a peace treaty), that makes things better since the territories are bad for Israel, even though it means gving up on peace, at least in our time.

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That's your opinion. Law within states is also based on an ulitmate threat of force. But as law is accepted and developed, sanctions also civilize.

You can be in the most civilised place in the world, yet dismantle the police (or dismiss it for two days) and see the myhem you'd get.

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Like France in Ivory Coast and various other African countries?
Like China, Russia, Soudan?
But don't take my word for it, you could be a little more inquisitive about these and other countries besides just Israel and the US.

Are we just pointing fingers now? This thread is about Israel.

No finer-pointing here, you were telling me that most countries abide by international law because their people expect it I suggested it might not be so.

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I just returned from Zimbabwe, I'd be happy to discuss that miserable government as well. But not in this thread.

Fine.

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No, but "bad" always originates from something.

That's as clear and to the point to me as evil always triumphs over good, because good is dumb.

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Cutting of the water supply for over 130 000 people? Hardly. It's about hurting. And making Gaza ungovernable.

In wars, one attacks enemy infrastructures to impede the enemy's capabilities, targeting property, so to speak, being better than targetting people. Or do you suggest one just sits around doing nothing in retaliation?

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As I said, it's not just my specualtion. I read a lot of political analysis of this conflict, both israeli and international.

So this speculation/perception/feel is shared by others too, I might as well be shown an opinion poll or a popularity constest.

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No I'm pointing out that different democracies have very different ways of threating their citizens. Some are quite bad, and I'd rather be a gypsy in India than Slovakia for instance.

While not an expert on either country, I consider India a more democratic one, it certainly has more established and experienced democratic institutions. Slovakia has yet to recover from being a post-Soviet wreck.

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You'll have to define crime and others first. i don't think we even agree about that.

Genocide, concentration camps, government-caused starvations, the usual Stalin/Hitler/Mao/Pol-Pot/Kim-Il-Sung fare; that's quite criminal, much more than whatever misdeeds liberal-democracies come up with.

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I find it quite natural that the richer and more educated a population becomes, the stronger the demand for participation in government becomes.
But our democracies, some much worse than others, seem little intersted in sharing wealth and progress with the world.

I don't know much about sharing wealth and progress with others as individuals, outside my own youthful stint in a kibbutz; I don't expect from most individuals to adhere to such alternative lifestyle, even less from states.

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Protecting a "certain kind of lifestyle" and a "standard of living" seems to be worth fucking over millions of other people. I see democracies creating their own worst enemies.

This seems a little too vague for me.

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The tendency in the US and other places to move away from fundamental princibles of democracy is in itself quite troubling. Democracy doesn't really seems to be in its best state these days.

This too.
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post #172 of 882
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You know just as well as others here that settling occupied land is a violation of the Geneva Convention.

Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Do you mean that any Israeli individual buying a house in the West Bank is in violation of the Geneva Convention?
Please, kindly show me where:
Geneva Convention

From Article 49: The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

You're trying to spin this. But it's really quite simple. The international Criminal court has ruled on this.

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If you claim land-theft the burden of proof is on you (as far as I know the lands in question were either government-owned or legally bought).

I know the israeli government uses the lack of modern documents for the public land as an excuse to take it, but since it's occupied territory this is still illegal. On top of that there are many examples of direct displacement. But I can see how it is convenient for you to disregard this.

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No I don't, that doesn't mean they should be under less scrutiny than Israel.

They arn't.

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I care more about facts than perceptions, thank you.

You're welcome. My point still stands. A vaste majority of the people of the world regard the US as the biggest threat to world peace.

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What I care is this sad state of affairs where perceptions are given too much importance, and facts not enough.

You post surprisingly little factual information to hold this position.

As I see it we won't get much further her. Being israeli certainly understand your position. It's to be expected. Mine is probably as well. I live in a place where I feel the government actually holds international law high. Your's doesn't.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #173 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
[B]Do Americans hear about how Israel bombed a American built powerstation that cost american taxpayers over 150 million dollars?

No they don't. All they hear is:

"Dem fucking ragheah Muslims are trying to kill every Jew, even ones not even born, and the ones already dead, no no, they're killing Jews and squirrels, mammals, or any other kind of living being! Fucking Palestinians don't deserve to live, bastard half-humans. Help Israel destroy more power plants and universities! Dat'll show 'em!"

Quote:
This station is also insured by the US state, meaning that more taxdollars will go to it's rebuilding.


The irony in this is too sweet.
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post #174 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Do you mean that any Israeli individual buying a house in the West Bank is in violation of the Geneva Convention?
Please, kindly show me where:
Geneva Convention

From Article 49: The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

So any Israeli individual buying a house in the West Bank and moving there is the same as him being transferred or deported? I don't see it that way.

Quote:
You're trying to spin this. But it's really quite simple. The international Criminal court has ruled on this.

On buying a house and moving being a crime?

Quote:
I know the israeli government uses the lack of modern documents for the public land as an excuse to take it, but since it's occupied territory this is still illegal. On top of that there are many examples of direct displacement.

While there probably were some administrative irregularities, if you want to claim that Jewish settlements are, as a general rule, built on stolen land, you should back it up with something more substantial than I know.

Quote:
But I can see how it is convenient for you to disregard this.

Convenient for me, how so? I was opposed to the settlement movement since its beginnings in the nineteen-seventies, it was a big waste of time and still is.

Quote:
Quote:
No I don't, that doesn't mean they should be under less scrutiny than Israel.

They arn't.

How many foreign correspondents in Israel?
How many in Sudan (or in Zimbabwe for that matter)?

Quote:
You're welcome. My point still stands. A vaste majority of the people of the world regard the US as the biggest threat to world peace.

Which wouldn't mean it actually is (not to mention that there is no world peace, which therefore cannot be threatened in any way, but nevermind).

Quote:
You post surprisingly little factual information to hold this position.

I usually refer to well-documented widely known facts, if you need more info, just ask.

Quote:
As I see it we won't get much further her. Being israeli certainly understand your position. It's to be expected. Mine is probably as well. I live in a place where I feel the government actually holds international law high.

Which is fairly easy when not having any real conflict with real enemies, it's like being generous and tolerant in sunny times of plenty.

Quote:
Your's doesn't.

For practical reasons, mostly.
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post #175 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
So any Israeli individual buying a house in the West Bank and moving there is the same as him being transferred or deported? I don't see it that way.

On buying a house and moving being a crime?


While there probably were some administrative irregularities, if you want to claim that Jewish settlements are, as a general rule, built on stolen land, you should back it up with something more substantial than I know.

"The principal tool used to take control of land is to declare it "state land. This process began in 1979, and is based on a manipulative implementation of the Ottoman Lands Law of 1858, which applied in the area at the time of occupation. Other methods employed by Israel to take control of land include seizure for military needs, declaration of land as "abandoned assets, and the expropriation of land for public needs. Each of these are based on a different legal foundation. In addition, Israel has assisted private citizens purchasing land on the "free market. "
http://www.btselem.org/english/Settl...d_Takeover.asp

As I said, the International Criminal Court has ruled on this. The UN security Council has also made are resolution against it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
How many foreign correspondents in Israel?
How many in Sudan (or in Zimbabwe for that matter)?

How many economic sanctions on Israel compared to Zimbabwe?


Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Which is fairly easy when not having any real conflict with real enemies, it's like being generous and tolerant in sunny times of plenty.

Thats easily a question of the hen and the egg, right?
Norway and Sweden had their own Conflict national sovereignty a hundered years ago. The peaceful resolution of that conflict, through international mediation, was revolutionary. At the same time the arabs of palestine started to get restless because of the large and organized immigration of european jews. A few years later they organzied their first general strike to pressure the english administration to stop the agressive takeover of arab land. The rest is ongoing history.

You're right, In scandinavia we havn't seen much war since WWII, or maybe the cold war. What strives we have, like the ongiong conflict between Norway and Russia over borders and fishing rights in the North Sea, are handled through legal channels. I don't see how this in any way disqualifies me from thinking that that the way Israel handles it's conflicts are disastrous.

Quote:
Quote:
Your's doesn't

For practical reasons, mostly.

Of course it's practical to disregard international law when you plunder a people of their land.

Practical and illegal.
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post #176 of 882
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Quote:
So any Israeli individual buying a house in the West Bank and moving there is the same as him being transferred or deported? I don't see it that way.


On buying a house and moving being a crime?

Erm... are you actually suggesting, with straight face and all, that the movement of Jewish Israeli people into the occupied territories has nothing to do with policy? Sort of like, a bunch of the most very radical Zionists just thought... they'd like a change, and to live nearer the beach, or something? And the government hadn't intended to provide them with houses, special, brand-new infrastructure (often for their exclusive use) and military protection until they did?

Because that's kind of like... bullshit, and stuff.
post #177 of 882
Here is an interesting parallel for you:

"...In 1814 when Denmark ceded the sovereignty over Norway to Sweden, the Danes kept the northern Atlantic island possessions of Greenland, Iceland and the Faroes - which actually had beeb old Norwegian sidelands (dependencies). The Danish administration in fact covered only the settled areas of Greenland, on the island's southwestern coast.
In 1925 an administrative reform elevated Greenland's two superintendentures into separate provinces, with a governor each.
Norway, one of the most active nations in Arctic exploration (Amundsen, Nansen), saw Greenland as one of the last frontiers. Norway , independent only since 1905, regarded Greenland as ancient Norwegian possession and did not recognize Danish sovereignty over the uninhabited stretches of the island. VIDKUN QUISLING, minister of defense 1931-1933, ordered Norway's navy to occupy uninhabited eastern Greenland in 1931. The occupied stretch, called EIRIK RAUDES LAND, lay thousands of kilometers distant from Danish-held, inhabited Greenland; Norway proclaimed annexation of the stretch on July 12th 1932.
The conflict was brought before the International Court of Justice in the Hague, which, in 1933, decided in favour of Denmark, a decision Norway accepted."


Wow. Doesn't this remind you of something? Except accepting the rule of the court in Hague that is.
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #178 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
On buying a house and moving being a crime?

"The principal tool used to take control of land is to declare it "state land. This process began in 1979, and is based on a manipulative implementation of the Ottoman Lands Law of 1858, which applied in the area at the time of occupation. Other methods employed by Israel to take control of land include seizure for military needs, declaration of land as "abandoned assets, and the expropriation of land for public needs. Each of these are based on a different legal foundation. In addition, Israel has assisted private citizens purchasing land on the "free market. "
http://www.btselem.org/english/Settl...d_Takeover.asp

We've already seen there were some irregularities, some of which were followed by lawsuits, you are yet to establish that as a general rule, settlements are on stolen land.

Quote:
As I said, the International Criminal Court has ruled on this. The UN security Council has also made are resolution against it.

As I said: On buying a house and moving being a crime?

Quote:
How many economic sanctions on Israel compared to Zimbabwe?

Is Zimbabwe under sanctions?

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Which is [abiding by international law] fairly easy when not having any real conflict with real enemies, it's like being generous and tolerant in sunny times of plenty.

Thats easily a question of the hen and the egg, right?
Norway and Sweden had their own Conflict national sovereignty a hundered years ago. The peaceful resolution of that conflict, through international mediation, was revolutionary.

Since there was no negation by either Swedes nor Norwegians of the other's right to exist nor an aggressive intent to destroy the other. Pray to Wotan or whatever deity or none-deity that it won't happen to you.
Quote:
At the same time the arabs of palestine started to get restless because of the large and organized immigration of european jews. A few years later they organzied their first general strike to pressure the english administration to stop the agressive takeover of arab land.

Buying land lawfully (which is what was done under British rule) is now agressive takeover?

Quote:
You're right, In scandinavia we havn't seen much war since WWII, or maybe the cold war. What strives we have, like the ongiong conflict between Norway and Russia over borders and fishing rights in the North Sea, are handled through legal channels. I don't see how this in any way disqualifies me from thinking that that the way Israel handles it's conflicts are disastrous.

It doesn't disqualify you from anything, Norway respects internationallaw because it doesn't seriously harm its nationalinterest or threaten its national seucrity.
And since internationallaw has no teeth, abiding by it is not binding.

Quote:
Quote:
For practical reasons, mostly.

Of course it's practical to disregard international law when you plunder a people of their land.

Plunder land?
Like getting out of the Sinai with a peace treaty?
Like getting out of Gaza and the northern West-Bank without a peace treaty?

Israel has quite an impressive military mahcine, if it were after tracts of lands to plunder it would be all over Syria, Egypt, Jordan, UAE

So let go the inane grandiloquent slogans.
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post #179 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Erm... are you actually suggesting, with straight face and all, that the movement of Jewish Israeli people into the occupied territories has nothing to do with policy? Sort of like, a bunch of the most very radical Zionists just thought... they'd like a change, and to live nearer the beach, or something? And the government hadn't intended to provide them with houses, special, brand-new infrastructure (often for their exclusive use) and military protection until they did?

Because that's kind of like... bullshit, and stuff.

Because it's kind of like You need more info, and shit.
At its beginning, the settlment movement was againt Israeli policy, and the army was sent to dislodge them (as in the Sebastia incident of 1974). During the first Rabin cabinet (1975-77), Shimon Peres supported the settlers as a way of undermining Rabin.
Only after the 1977 elections, won by the Likud, was there government support for the settlers' movement.
Most of the settlers are not political anyway which explains why the Gaza evacuation was met with little opposition (and Gaza settlers were more political than the rest); for most of them settling meant simply buying a house and moving there.
They were not aware that these areas' status is yet to be determined and that Israel could actually decide to evacuate its citizens, their mistake (along with the very mistake of settling in the Territory).
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post #180 of 882
Yes, Zimbabwe is under sanctions. In my view Israel should be as well.

It becomming quite clear to me that the reason you hold international law in such low regard is because you know very well how Israel in breach of it.

What you fail to grasp is that other nations are not like that. Not all anyway.

What israeli court has to say on the matter of the legality of the settlements is totally irrelevant, since we are not inside israeli territory here. What happende before 47 is one thing. It can't be undone. (And it was partially very agressive, yes, why would a whole nation go on genral strike if everything was a walk in the park?).

What happend with the settlements in the late 70s, and what is still going, is illegal and should be reversed. The International Criminal Court in Hague has ruled so, and the UN Security Council has agreed in a resolution on the matter. It is totally in breech of the Geneva Convention on how you are allowed to operate within occupied land. The only reason no sanctions or other messures of perssure is put on Israel to accept this is because the US have always vetoed any action against Israel. But I suspect the tide of sympathy is slowly turning against Israel in the US, as it has done during the 80s in Europe. This is the main reason why the Government of Israel now sees the time fit to start drawing permanent borders around Israel. The problem being that they will draw these borders to illegally include post-67 land (land occupied after 1967).

Interestingly enough, Israel was the only country who refused to put economic sanctions on Apartheid South Africa. Israel has always been aware of the situation it was in.

Quote:
Since there was no negation by either Swedes nor Norwegians of the other's right to exist nor an aggressive intent to destroy the other. Pray to Wotan or whatever deity or none-deity that it won't happen to you.

I guess I mistook you for a quite educated person. Read up on both the history of Scandinavia ... and the Mytology.

Quote:
It doesn't disqualify you from anything, Norway respects internationallaw because it doesn't seriously harm its nationalinterest or threaten its national seucrity.
And since internationallaw has no teeth, abiding by it is not binding

If you re-read my example and apply some of your braincells, You'll see that Norway had a much greater historical claim to Greenland, an area with vastly more exisiting and potential economic resources than the post 47 Palestinian areas. Yet it accepted International law and ended it's occupation.

If abiding by international law is not binding, doesn't that make the holocaust legal?
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #181 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Because it's kind of like You need more info, and shit.

I like you.
post #182 of 882
Slightly as an aside - though still related to Israel's campaigns of death - why is it that there are 'good' terrorists and 'bad' ones? Or 'good' fundies.....err, I mean religious extremists and 'bad' ones?

Why can't ALL terrorism and religious extremism be bad?

We all know that Israel owes its origin largely to an innovative and ground-breaking terrorist campaign run by terror groups that evolved many of the techniques now commonly in use today but what about the rampant religious hatred that suffuses every level of Israeli society and terrorizes its own citizens in addition to Palestinians?

Take this example: Flters offer 20, 000 NIS for killing gays.

Quote:
A leaflet distributed in several neighborhoods in Jerusalem offered NIS 20,000 to anyone who kills participants in the International Gay Pride Parade scheduled to take place in Jerusalem next month.

The flier also suggested that fire bombs be used to kill the participants and gave instructions on how to construct them.

The parade has generated much opposition from many religious groups in the city who are opposed to the holding of such a parade in Jerusalem. Public opinion polls show that the vast majority of Jerusalem residents are against the parade.

Later this week, a police report is expected to be issued as to whether the parade is considered a security risk. If the report determines that it is, the parade may be cancelled.

That last sentence is an absolute classic and a text-book example of the Israeli attitude: fundie nutters don't want a gay parade and threaten the participants with death. the reaction is the parade must be cancelled as a security risk!



You just couldn't make this stuff up!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #183 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Yes, Zimbabwe is under sanctions. In my view Israel should be as well.

Are there many other countries which should be on that list?

Quote:
It becomming quite clear to me that the reason you hold international law in such low regard is because you know very well how Israel in breach of it.

No, because it is ineffective, since it is not derived from any real sovereign authority.

Quote:
What you fail to grasp is that other nations are not like that. Not all anyway.

Nations follow their national security and national interest first, and international law distant third and only when it doesn't get in the way of the two formers. It's called Realpolitik.

Quote:
What israeli court has to say on the matter of the legality of the settlements is totally irrelevant, since we are not inside israeli territory here.

Since it's territory under Israel control (albeit temporary) the court that counts is that of the guy with the big club.


Quote:
What happende before 47 is one thing. It can't be undone. (And it was partially very agressive, yes, why would a whole nation go on genral strike if everything was a walk in the park?).

In France they have those strikes over anything, so what?

Quote:
Interestingly enough, Israel was the only country who refused to put economic sanctions on Apartheid South Africa. Israel has always been aware of the situation it was in.

Interestingly enough, Israel ahd very little relations with South Africa in the nineteen-fifties and sixties, at the time it was developing cooperation with many newly independent African countries; it was one of Israel's main foreign policies, so Israel kept at a safe distance from Pretoria.
In 1973, most African countries severed all ties with Israel (and how could you blame them? they were under threat of oil embargo from you-know-who). Being shunned from the Asia-Africa arena, Israel sought relations with anyone it could, and so it ended up with some unsavoury partners, notably the then South-Africa. It's called Realpolitik.

Quote:
I guess I mistook you for a quite educated person. Read up on both the history of Scandinavia ... and the Mytology.

Are you equating the denial of Israel's legitimacy by so many with some Scandinavian mythological thingies?

Quote:
If you re-read my example and apply some of your braincells, You'll see that Norway had a much greater historical claim to Greenland, an area with vastly more exisiting and potential economic resources than the post 47 Palestinian areas. Yet it accepted International law and ended it's occupation.

Israel was ready to relinquish the Occupied Territories in 1967 in exchange for peace, but the actual problem is not about territory, it's about those countries refusing to accept Israel's existence.
No Scandinavian country has such problem, I'm sure your brain-cells would tell you that if you asked them.

Quote:
If abiding by international law is not binding, doesn't that make the holocaust legal?

No, it makes international law irrelevent, since it didn't raise a finger to oppose the holocaust, or the 1994 gendocide in Rwanda.
Therefore one should not feel bound by it.
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post #184 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Because it's kind of like You need more info, and shit.

I like you.

Thank you.
I'll do my best to like you too.
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post #185 of 882
Israel just invaded Lebanon - is this the start of a new middle east war?
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post #186 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Israel just invaded Lebanon - is this the start of a new middle east war?

Just more Israeli aggression and murder. Business as usual.

They are stupid to take on Hizbollah - they sorted them out last time and it looks like they'll have to do it again.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #187 of 882
Oh. God. My.

Edit: Sego... Hezbollah took two israeli soldiers, so the aggressive act was lebanese in origin...
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post #188 of 882
Great - those whacky dudes have invaded a sovereign nation and most likely started a war that will plunge the region into more instability. Joy.

No matter that Lebanon has nothing to do with it.

No matter that kidnapping soldiers for a bargaining chip justifies, in the Israeli PM's own words, 'inflicting extreme pain' (on innocent people obviously) while blowing away families and children picnicking on beaches is......well, nothing at all.

I guess they'll get to test that chemical ammunition on other people than the Palestinians for a while though.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #189 of 882
Sounds to me like the Arab states are running amok and Israel is responding...
post #190 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Sounds to me like the Arab states are running amok and Israel is responding...

I agree with you on Hezbollah. But I think Israel went too far when they attacked Gaza in response to the kidnapping. Seemed like a disproportionate response.

Its scary though. Israel, Palestine and Lebanon are now at arms. Israel is talking strong, and backing it with guns. What other nations are going to get involved?
post #191 of 882
cant we just turn israel to glass, and be done with this whole mess once and for all, however evil it is to kill people, I somehow think that alot of good would come from this one-time evil act.
post #192 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by thuh Freak
I agree with you on Hezbollah. But I think Israel went too far when they attacked Gaza in response to the kidnapping. Seemed like a disproportionate response.

Its scary though. Israel, Palestine and Lebanon are now at arms. Israel is talking strong, and backing it with guns. What other nations are going to get involved?

Hezbollah is not Lebanon.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #193 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Hezbollah is not Lebanon.

Great.

And Afganistan wasn't the Taleban or Al Queda...
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post #194 of 882
What the f*ck was Hezbollah thinking when they kidnapped Israeli soldiers? I mean, they can't be surprised that Israel wants to shove a bazooka up its ass!

How would America respond? With 150k boots walking up it's shore.
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post #195 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Great.

And Afganistan wasn't the Taleban or Al Queda...

Too true - examples of tyrannical hitting out at anything for revenge abound......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #196 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Too true - examples of tyrannical hitting out at anything for revenge abound......

You can't fix history but you certainly can get your men back.
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #197 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
What the f*ck was Hezbollah thinking when they kidnapped Israeli soldiers? I mean, they can't be surprised that Israel wants to shove a bazooka up its ass!

How would America respond? With 150k boots walking up it's shore.

No kidding, I think Israel has just tired of the Islamic radicals that the surrounding countrys dont do anything about. Perhaps those Islamic Jihad freaks should have let Israel alone? Hamas wanted war, Israel will give it to them. Dont start pulling crap you cant back up. Grabbing more Israel soldiers is a sure way to get your arse kicked real hard.
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post #198 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You can't fix history but you certainly can get your men back.

Yes, I think that's what the kidnappers were trying - of course in their case it is more correct to say women back.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #199 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Territory amigo, territory.

Israel doesn't want Gaza. They TRIED to give Gaza to Egypt back in '73 but Egypt flat out refused to take it.

I used to be very biased against Israel until I recently went there and actually learned some history and spoke to the people there. You really think they want war? You really think they are cold-blooded?

Here's a quote from one of the most leftist people I spoke to. "The wall [around gaza & the west bank] makes me sick. It flies against everything I believe in and stand for. And I thank god for that wall every single day."

Bush & his cronies try to pound it into our heads that we in the US are constantly surrounded by people who hate us and our freedoms and want to kills us for them. Well, that's more propaganda than truth...it's Israel that really is surrounded by people bent on their destruction. It's just a part of daily life for them.

Do I agree with all of Israel's methods? Of course not. But I don't think it's right to try to demonize their people the way the American left does here.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #200 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
[B]Yes, I think that's what the kidnappers were trying - of course in their case it is more correct to say women back.

Nobody does these things without provocation.

Israel was obviously provoked, and responded, as she has the right to. Everyone approves, because to criticize Israel is political and cultural suicide, verboten, an unwritten law of international relations, based on the certainty that critics will (by default) earn the label of "anti-Semite", (or worse)

However, when Israel does the provoking and the attacked parties react, there is also approval, but for the attackers, of course.

It seems so blindingly obvious that this state of affairs has arisen because the Jewish faith in the US meets with far more official approval than does Islam. Israel's opponents are Muslim in the majority, and there has been a decades long campaign by the western governments, with their media apparatus in tow, to frame Palestinians as terrorists, and more recently to equate the entire Muslim faith with terrorism, in the minds of the public.

Naturally, this is an oversimplification of a very complex issue, but the general gist is sound, (although it is still not polite conversation to even analyze it, for fear of being labeled as described above).

Its not conspiracy, just a case of "looking after your own perceived kind". It's the way humans are, and it causes untold grief.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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