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All old Israel/Lebanon threads merged in here - Page 6  

post #201 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
it's Israel that really is surrounded by people bent on their destruction. It's just a part of daily life for them.

That's just more propaganda.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #202 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Are there many other countries which should be on that list?

Well, there are quite a few. But not too many "liberal democracies".

Quote:
Its becomming quite clear to me that the reason you hold international law in such low regard is because you know very well how Israel in breach of it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
No, because it is ineffective, since it is not derived from any real sovereign authority.

International law has as much sovereign authority as the international community wants to put into it. Look at the first Gulf War, the bombing of Serbia and the independance of East Timor.

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Nations follow their national security and national interest first, and international law distant third and only when it doesn't get in the way of the two formers. It's called Realpolitik.

Quite frankly, Realpolitik has never been a trademark of mid-eastern politics.

But there is no contradiction between Realpolitik and International law. Actually, the way this world going, International Law is very relevant in Realpolitik.
It is in Israels long term interest to start bothering about international law.

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Since it's territory under Israel control (albeit temporary) the court that counts is that of the guy with the big club.

So say You. I say that's crap. I feel an urge to use ideological comparisons that would probaby close this thread.

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In France they have those strikes over anything, so what?

Well, arabs in the 30s didn't.

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Interestingly enough, Israel ahd very little relations with South Africa in the nineteen-fifties and sixties, at the time it was developing cooperation with many newly independent African countries; it was one of Israel's main foreign policies, so Israel kept at a safe distance from Pretoria.
In 1973, most African countries severed all ties with Israel (and how could you blame them? they were under threat of oil embargo from you-know-who). Being shunned from the Asia-Africa arena, Israel sought relations with anyone it could, and so it ended up with some unsavoury partners, notably the then South-Africa. It's called Realpolitik.

Your definition of Realpolitik is starting to stink.

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Are you equating the denial of Israel's legitimacy by so many with some Scandinavian mythological thingies?

The right of Israel to exist, has hardly been a problem since the 60s. And if your gonna use religious puns, at least get your religions right. Especially in this conflict.

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Israel was ready to relinquish the Occupied Territories in 1967 in exchange for peace, but the actual problem is not about territory, it's about those countries refusing to accept Israel's existence.

When was this then? Show me?

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If abiding by international law is not binding, doesn't that make the holocaust legal?


No, it makes international law irrelevent, since it didn't raise a finger to oppose the holocaust, or the 1994 gendocide in Rwanda.
Therefore one should not feel bound by it.

Err... That sentance would only make sense is you said; "therefore one should be bound by it. Or those atrocities will happen again and again.

Your sentence is equal to : "Since the law didn't prevent me from getting robbed, it's irrelevant." Even though the robber got sent to jail. and you got compensated.

So explain to me the "no", if international law is not to be abided, why was the holocaust wrong? Without international law, there wouldn't be any Israel. Is Nuremberg irrelevant too? Do you need more paint in that corner?
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #203 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
That's just more propaganda.

I was there. It isn't.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #204 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
I was there. It isn't.

I've been there too - and I emerged with a completely different view to you.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #205 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
I was there. It isn't.

People there are living in a propaganda-driven life too. They told you what the government told them.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #206 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
International law has as much sovereign authority as the international community wants to put into it.

Presicsely.
When actual sovereign states decide to implement treaties, conventions, and customs which form international law, that is: when it suits those states..
But there's no sovereign authority above nations the way the state is asovereign authority above citizens, which is why international law (law between nations) is not equivalent to the law within states.

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Look at the first Gulf War, the bombing of Serbia and the independance of East Timor.

It was the doing of sovereign states, with the international law as rubber stamp (it's not like Mr.Clinton went back and forth to the UN for a note saying he could bomb Serbia, as well he did).


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Quite frankly, Realpolitik has never been a trademark of mid-eastern politics.

Israel owes its successes to having realpolitik and its enemies not enough.

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But there is no contradiction between Realpolitik and International law. Actually, the way this world going, International Law is very relevant in Realpolitik.
It is in Israels long term interest to start bothering about international law.

If Israel's government was persuaded of that it would act accordignly. You can always try convincing them, hint: calling names like land pludererers and the such won't help.

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Since it's territory under Israel control (albeit temporary) the court that counts is that of the guy with the big club.

So say You. I say that's crap. I feel an urge to use ideological comparisons that would probaby close this thread.

Perhaps you feel that law without sovereign authority, jurisdiction, or enforcement capability, is more relevant, I do not.

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In France they have those strikes over anything, so what?

Well, arabs in the 30s didn't.

Perhaps they felt that Jews shouldn't be allowed to buy land freely. So what?

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Your definition of Realpolitik is starting to stink.

So I suppose you'd want to blame the ANC for having had its own partnership in the nineteen-seventies and eighties with regimes far worse than South Africa's (the USSR comes to mind).

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The right of Israel to exist, has hardly been a problem since the 60s.

It is a problem for Syria, and Saudi Arabia, and Iran, and at least a two dozens other countries.

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And if your gonna use religious puns, at least get your religions right. Especially in this conflict.

I don't have the slghtest clue what you're scribbling about.

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Quote:
Israel was ready to relinquish the Occupied Territories in 1967 in exchange for peace, but the actual problem is not about territory, it's about those countries refusing to accept Israel's existence.

When was this then? Show me?

Never heard of the Khartoum conference of 1967?
On June 19th 1967, the Israel government voted topropose a return of the Golan to Syria, the Sinai and Gaza to Egypt, and the West Bank to Jordan in return for peace treaties.
In September of that same year, the Arab League in conference in Khartoum voted a resolution rejection this proposal, known as the three nos: no peace, no recognition and no negotiation with Israel.
Once rejected, that proposal was no longer on the table.


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No, it makes international law irrelevent, since it didn't raise a finger to oppose the holocaust, or the 1994 gendocide in Rwanda.
Therefore one should not feel bound by it.

Err... That sentance would only make sense is you said; "therefore one should be bound by it. Or those atrocities will happen again and again.

You are only bound by a law when you are forced to abide by it, if you can opt out it is not binding.
The fact that any country can opt out of international law proves it's not binding.

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So explain to me the "no", if international law is not to be abided, why was the holocaust wrong?

The holocaust was wrong because genocides are wrong, irrespective of what intenrational law says.

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Without international law, there wouldn't be any Israel.

Which international law built Israeli infrastructures and institutions? Which international law sent soldiers and weapons to oppose the five armies which ganged up to destroy Israel on its first day?

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Is Nuremberg irrelevant too? Do you need more paint in that corner?

The Nurnberg trials were the prerogative of the righteous victors dispensing justice on the abominable vainquished.
And since you might actually ask, the victors aren't always righteous and the vainquished aren't always abominable, but in this case they bloody were.
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post #207 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
I was there. It isn't.

Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I've been there too - and I emerged with a completely different view to you.

Perhaps you were there on different days of the week?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #208 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Perhaps you were there on different days of the week?

I was there, and it seemed like the Isralis and Palistinians got along pretty well. It is a much safer and nicer place than East Palo Alto, Philidelphia, or Manilla (the three most crappy and dangerous places that I have ever been).
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #209 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Presicsely.
When actual sovereign states decide to implement treaties, conventions, and customs which form international law, that is: when it suits those states..

Yes, and in most parts of the world, states have done a lot of that already, and are doing more as we speak.

Quote:
But there's no sovereign authority above nations the way the state is asovereign authority above citizens, which is why international law (law between nations) is not equivalent to the law within states.

I never said it was. Normally it shouldn't be necessary to put force behind international law. But the UN does have power to do that, though not very efficiently.

Quote:
It was the doing of sovereign states, with the international law as rubber stamp (it's not like Mr.Clinton went back and forth to the UN for a note saying he could bomb Serbia, as well he did).

It would have to be. And that's a good thing.

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Israel owes its successes to having realpolitik and its enemies not enough.

Well, I havn't seen much Realpolitik from Israel since 67. And now it's more like a parody of Realpolitik, "making up new realities".

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If Israel's government was persuaded of that it would act accordignly. You can always try convincing them, hint: calling names like land pludererers and the such won't help.

I didn't call names. I stated a fact about what has, and is still happening.


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So say You. I say that's crap. I feel an urge to use ideological comparisons that would probaby close this thread.


Perhaps you feel that law without sovereign authority, jurisdiction, or enforcement capability, is more relevant, I do not.

Well, luckily most nations don't agree with you, and see the need for international regulations. International law is a pretty young concept, and the world is a diverse place. But the need for it is there, and it's not going away.

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Perhaps they felt that Jews shouldn't be allowed to buy land freely. So what?

Perhaps they felt that their land was being sold by absent landowners with questionable rights and a corrupt State / Government not representing them? But as I said, what happened before 47, (or 67 for that matter), can hardly be undone. The problem is that it's still going on every day, inch by inch and olive three by olive three, and THAT practice is by modern international law, illegal.

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So I suppose you'd want to blame the ANC for having had its own partnership in the nineteen-seventies and eighties with regimes far worse than South Africa's (the USSR comes to mind).

Well, pest or colera in my book. Personally I resent Apartheid more then communism.

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I don't have the slghtest clue what you're scribbling about.

obviously.

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Never heard of the Khartoum conference of 1967?
On June 19th 1967, the Israel government voted topropose a return of the Golan to Syria, the Sinai and Gaza to Egypt, and the West Bank to Jordan in return for peace treaties.
In September of that same year, the Arab League in conference in Khartoum voted a resolution rejection this proposal, known as the three nos: no peace, no recognition and no negotiation with Israel.
Once rejected, that proposal was no longer on the table.

True. Once.
One can always wonder what would have happened if negotiations where started back then. But from that moment, the policies of those countries changed. They all knew that Israel was there to stay.


Quote:
Quote:
Err... That sentance would only make sense is you said; "therefore one should be bound by it. Or those atrocities will happen again and again.

You are only bound by a law when you are forced to abide by it, if you can opt out it is not binding.
The fact that any country can opt out of international law proves it's not binding.

No. Any country cannot opt out of international law. Israel can opt out because the US allows it to. And the US, being the only superpower around, does have it's way with international law these days. Hopefully for the rest of us, that will change.

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The holocaust was wrong because genocides are wrong, irrespective of what intenrational law says.

And genocides are wrong because? </ Jon Stewart Voice>


Quote:
Which international law built Israeli infrastructures and institutions? Which international law sent soldiers and weapons to oppose the five armies which ganged up to destroy Israel on its first day?

The UN partitioned palestine, which might have been very wrong, put still laid down the legal basis of what became Israel. Hey, You knew that allready!

Quote:
The Nurnberg trials were the prerogative of the righteous victors dispensing justice on the abominable vainquished.
And since you might actually ask, the victors aren't always righteous and the vainquished aren't always abominable, but in this case they bloody were.

Quite true, but it's still the basis of modern International Law and The Human Rights, leading to The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, The Convention against Torture, The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and so on blah blah blah.

Lucky us, right?
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #210 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Philidelphia

Heh. Philly isn't that bad.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #211 of 882
post #212 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
Omar at Iraq the Model:

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/200...-where-to.html


HAHAHAHAHAH.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #213 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Israel was obviously provoked, and responded, as she has the right to. Everyone approves, because to criticize Israel is political and cultural suicide, verboten, an unwritten law of international relations, based on the certainty that critics will (by default) earn the label of "anti-Semite", (or worse)

No, Sammi. The anti-semitism comes from claims that people are oppressed by the international jewry, which is what you are saying here isn't it?

Speaking out is fine. Claiming that you cannot speak out because of some international pressure from jewish groups is complete bullshit and is the fundamental basis for anti-semitism. Has been, will always be.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #214 of 882
the way i see it, lebanon is just as responsible as the palestinian authority regarding the abduction of the israeli soldiers. they have both allowed terrorist groups such as hamas and hezbollah to operate with impunity within their territories. if you are going to allow these pricks to walk among you, don't be surprised if you wind up staring down the barrel of an israeli tank.
post #215 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
the way i see it, lebanon is just as responsible as the palestinian authority regarding the abduction of the israeli soldiers. they have both allowed terrorist groups such as hamas and hezbollah to operate with impunity within their territories. if you are going to allow these pricks to walk among you, don't be surprised if you wind up staring down the barrel of an israeli tank.

I don't think either the Lebanese government, nor the PA have any control over what Hizbollah does. To suggest otherwise is to not recognize the divisions and independent nature of such organizations.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #216 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Speaking out is fine. Claiming that you cannot speak out because of some international pressure from jewish groups is complete bullshit and is the fundamental basis for anti-semitism. Has been, will always be.

Then why do people accuse other people of being anti-semitic when it's clear that they don't agree with Israel's policies? Most, if not all, of those people are of Jewish descent.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #217 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
People there are living in a propaganda-driven life too. They told you what the government told them.

Everyone I spoke to could play a little variation of six degrees of Kevin Bacon but with someone hurt or killed in a terrorist attack. Being sent into harms way is taken in stride...it was rather sad how mundane it seemed to the Israelis...1 of the 8 Israelis with us on our tour got called up to active duty in Gaza on the last day of our tour. It hit all of us Americans pretty hard but to all of the Israelis it was just a part of life. I think that all of us can agree to hope for the obsolescence of that attitude.

And of course if you just look at the history of Israel you'd also see that from the very start the rest of the rather new states (Syria, Lebanon, et cetera all formed in the 1930s...not much more history there than Israel born in 1948) have had it out for Israel.

I'm not saying Israel is perfect...far from it in fact. However, you really don't paint a very accurate picture of what's going on there.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #218 of 882
27 more civilians killed by Israel last night - including 10 children.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #219 of 882
Are we just going to focus on who Israel kills and leave out who Hezbollah kills? A little one sided, don't ya think?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #220 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Are we just going to focus on who Israel kills and leave out who Hezbollah kills? A little one sided, don't ya think?

Why is it one-sided? You are here, so why don't you take on the job to report the killings by Hezbollah to make it even-steven, hm?

Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
post #221 of 882
Lets do statistics then, to get things right:

Civilians this week:
Lebanese killed by Israel : 36
Palestinians killed by Israel : at least 23
Israelis by Hizbollah : 1
Israelis by Palestinians : 0

Millitary / millitants this week:
Lebanese killed by Israel : ?
Palestinians killed by Israel : at least 12
Israelis by Hizbollah : 8
Israelis by Palestinians : 1

And then there is the material damage; Israel has done damage for several 100 million dollars. Possibly billions.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #222 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Lets do statistics then, to get things right:

Civilians this week:
Lebanese killed by Israel : 36
Palestinians killed by Israel : at least 23
Israelis by Hizbollah : 1
Israelis by Palestinians : 0

Millitary / millitants this week:
Lebanese killed by Israel : ?
Palestinians killed by Israel : at least 12
Israelis by Hizbollah : 8
Israelis by Palestinians : 1

And then there is the material damage; Israel has done damage for several 100 million dollars. Possibly billions.

True and this is just what Iran,Iraq,Syria, Hizbollah,Hamas want? Israel is surrounded with countrys happy to interfere in Lebanon,Palestine,Gaza,etc. They want a war and have since 1948.
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post #223 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
True and this is just what Iran,Iraq,Syria, Hizbollah,Hamas want? Israel is surrounded with countrys happy to interfere in Lebanon,Palestine,Gaza,etc. They want a war and have since 1948.

And Israel seems happy to interfere as well, right?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #224 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Presicsely.
When actual sovereign states decide to implement treaties, conventions, and customs which form international law, that is: when it suits those states.

Yes, and in most parts of the world, states have done a lot of that already, and are doing more as we speak.

Yes, when and where it suits them (and not when it doesn't).

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I never said it was. Normally it shouldn't be necessary to put force behind international law.

As said previously: to be effective, any law should always have the ability to use force, even if it doesn't have to use it in the end. International law hasn't.

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But the UN does have power to do that, though not very efficiently.

The UN doesn't take away sovereignity from states, it doesn't have sovereignity over states.

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Well, I havn't seen much Realpolitik from Israel since 67. And now it's more like a parody of Realpolitik, "making up new realities".

Two examples: the unileateral withdrawal from Lebanon, the evacuation of the Gaza settlers.

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I didn't call names. I stated a fact about what has, and is still happening.

I responded to your statemement of fact earlier.


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Perhaps you feel that law without sovereign authority, jurisdiction, or enforcement capability, is more relevant, I do not.

Well, luckily most nations don't agree with you, and see the need for international regulations.

And those who cannot help themsleves get no help from those international regualtions, which is why when faced with threats to their national security or interests, states might disregard those regulations.

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Perhaps they felt that their land was being sold by absent landowners with questionable rights and a corrupt State / Government not representing them? But as I said, what happened before 47, (or 67 for that matter), can hardly be undone. The problem is that it's still going on every day, inch by inch and olive three by olive three, and THAT practice is by modern international law, illegal.

Your claim that as a general rule, settlements were built on stolen land is still unsubstantiated, and so it doesn't stand.

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Well, pest or colera in my book. Personally I resent Apartheid more then communism.

Comapring the communism of the nineteen-eighties to the then apartheid, one notices that the USSR was killing more than a million Afghans in that decade and displacing some five millions of them, while South Africa was not; and that while there were Africans migrating to South Africa from neighbouring countries (voting with their feet) people in the Soviet bloc were dreaming of getting out of there, so I say communism was worse.

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True. Once.
One can always wonder what would have happened if negotiations where started back then. But from that moment, the policies of those countries changed. They all knew that Israel was there to stay.

So let them recognise Israel and negociate with it now. Yet they don't.

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You are only bound by a law when you are forced to abide by it, if you can opt out it is not binding.
The fact that any country can opt out of international law proves it's not binding.

No. Any country cannot opt out of international law. Israel can opt out because the US allows it to.

And Sudan can opt out, and France, and every country if it so chooses, and not because of any US favours.

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And the US, being the only superpower around, does have it's way with international law these days. Hopefully for the rest of us, that will change.

For that to change, international law would have to change, so countries see as an advantage, not a hindrance, to their national security and interests, and so opting-out is not allowed to no none.

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And genocides are wrong because? </ Jon Stewart Voice>

Because I said so.

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The UN partitioned palestine, which might have been very wrong, put still laid down the legal basis of what became Israel.

Which in deeds equals, well, nothing.

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Hey, You knew that allready!

Alltoo well.

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Quite true, but it's [the Nurneberg trials] still the basis of modern International Law and The Human Rights, leading to The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, The Convention against Torture, The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and so on blah blah blah.

I was under the impression the basis of modern international law was the law of the sea, the nineteenth century hunt against pirates and the maritime slave-trade and all that
My bad.

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Lucky us, right?

Lucky are those who have nations-states (or sometimes, benevolent foreign states eager to help) to protect them because international law can't, and so it won't.
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


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« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
post #225 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
I don't think either the Lebanese government, nor the PA have any control over what Hizbollah does. To suggest otherwise is to not recognize the divisions and independent nature of such organizations.

i'm not discounting those divisions at, those are well documented. however, the reality is that pa and the lebanese governments know who they (the terrorist) are, where they operate and what they are doing. either they choose to do nothing about it for internal political reasons or they just don't have the ability to act, which i believe is bullshit. either case, israel is just addressing the situation as they have always done, right or wrong. their actions should not be a surprise to anyone.
post #226 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Lets do statistics then, to get things right:

Civilians this week:
Lebanese killed by Israel : 36
Palestinians killed by Israel : at least 23
Israelis by Hizbollah : 1
Israelis by Palestinians : 0

Millitary / millitants this week:
Lebanese killed by Israel : ?
Palestinians killed by Israel : at least 12
Israelis by Hizbollah : 8
Israelis by Palestinians : 1

And then there is the material damage; Israel has done damage for several 100 million dollars. Possibly billions.

and where are the figures for israelis killed in the last year due to suicide bombings, rocket attacks and the such. a bit one sided, don't you think?
post #227 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Then why do people accuse other people of being anti-semitic when it's clear that they don't agree with Israel's policies? Most, if not all, of those people are of Jewish descent.

Which people are you referring to, the ones being accused of anti-semitism or the ones accusing?

Lets turn this around for a moment, where are most claims of racism coming from? Whites or blacks?

It is the subjected group's right to claim unfair or irrational treatment.

Regardless, I don't think you can prove that the claims of anti-semitism are due to the fact that people solely disagree with Israel. I have never been called anti-semitic because I think and actively express that Israel is pursuing idiotic methods to solve its problems, of course I don't couch my discussion in terms of Jews being every bit evil and subjugating the palestinians and forcing the world to follow their misguided paths via a secret back room cabal. See the difference?

You can make criticism of the vatican's policies without being anti-catholic, or you can be anti-catholic in your rhetoric, even if the point is the same.

So will you please take some time to figure out if you hate jews, or the actions of a state?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #228 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
and where are the figures for israelis killed in the last year due to suicide bombings, rocket attacks and the such. a bit one sided, don't you think?

Exactly - and what about the running totals from Israeli aggression and 'reprisals' for the last God knows how long? A bit one-sided don't we think?

And if it's a numbers game then does the fact that Israel has killed vastly more than their enemies mean that they've come out on top? And if so then surely all is ok no?

Or is it merely that the only deaths worthy of any significance are Israeli ones?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #229 of 882
The point, sego, is that there is no winner in armed conflict. Israel doesn't invade countries unprovoked, it doesn't respond militarily unprovoked. Terrorists and indeed the nations around Israel don't follow the same rules. It doesn't matter who has killed more people, what one only obtains from that is a sense that one side is making more irrational sacrifices to a conflict that only consumes lives.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #230 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
The point, sego, is that there is no winner in armed conflict. Israel doesn't invade countries unprovoked, it doesn't respond militarily unprovoked. Terrorists and indeed the nations around Israel don't follow the same rules. It doesn't matter who has killed more people, what one only obtains from that is a sense that one side is making more irrational sacrifices to a conflict that only consumes lives.

True - but it is the excessive nature and the attitude that enflame the situation - coupled with an absolute disregard for any civilized behaviour.

I would not argue that they do not have the right to respond. I would argue that in doing so they should not indulge in the rhetoric of 'war' in an already enflamed situation (it's called 'diplomacy'), avoid playground machismo like 'we will cause great pain' (we all know war is pain - we don't need the braggadoccio) and preferably avoid things like cutting off the water supply to Gaza as happened last night.

These things serve to enflame the situation more - which is of course, the purpose. Israel can only benefit from any situation like this because A0 the world has given it carte blanche to commit whatsoever atrocities it can devise and b) they will be supported by the US and most people regardless of any right or wrong.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #231 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
i'm not discounting those divisions at, those are well documented. however, the reality is that pa and the lebanese governments know who they (the terrorist) are, where they operate and what they are doing. either they choose to do nothing about it for internal political reasons or they just don't have the ability to act, which i believe is bullshit. either case, israel is just addressing the situation as they have always done, right or wrong. their actions should not be a surprise to anyone.

Fighting against the army is not terrorism. That's what Hizbollah is doing. Take off your glasses and understand that.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #232 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Exactly - and what about the running totals from Israeli aggression and 'reprisals' for the last God knows how long? A bit one-sided don't we think?

And if it's a numbers game then does the fact that Israel has killed vastly more than their enemies mean that they've come out on top? And if so then surely all is ok no?

Or is it merely that the only deaths worthy of any significance are Israeli ones?

so i should feel sorry for the hamas and hezbollah because israel is better at killing than they are. i hate to see innocent people die, especially children, but at least israel is not trying to target them. can the same be said for the other guys?
post #233 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
These things serve to enflame the situation more - which is of course, the purpose. Israel can only benefit from any situation like this because A0 the world has given it carte blanche to commit whatsoever atrocities it can devise and b) they will be supported by the US and most people regardless of any right or wrong.

Israel has no more received carte blanche than any other nation, and the reasons for their actions (although perhaps, as you suggest not the severity) are generally rational -- and thus 'noted' but not supported necessarily.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #234 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Fighting against the army is not terrorism. That's what Hizbollah is doing. Take off your glasses and understand that.

i don't wear glasses and you are stretching if you don't think hezbollah is a terrorist organization. nor does it change the fact that if the lebanese government isn't either willing or capable of doing something about these guys, then israel has every right to go after them.
post #235 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
so i should feel sorry for the hamas and hezbollah because israel is better at killing than they are. i hate to see innocent people die, especially children, but at least israel is not trying trying to target them. can the same be said for the other guys?

They are obviously not trying 'not' to target them either.

To be quite honest, neither side probably care about killing anyone on the other. Let's just not paint one side as 'civilized' and 'moral'.

If it comes down to the final analysis those with the fingers on the triggers and rocket-launch buttons on both sides are undoubtedly scum. It all depends on whose side you're on in the bigger picture.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #236 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
i don't wear glasses and you are stretching if you don't think hezbollah is a terrorist organization. nor does it change the fact that if the lebanese government isn't either willing or capable of doing something about these guys, then israel has every right to to after them.

No matter what they are - fighting against the army is not terrorism. Bombing bridges, power plants, civilian airports, on the other hand, is.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #237 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
They are obviously not trying 'not' to target them either.

To be quite honest, neither side probably care about killing anyone on the other. Let's just not paint one side as 'civilized' and 'moral'.

If it comes down to the final analysis those with the fingers on the triggers and rocket-launch buttons on both sides are undoubtedly scum. It all depends on whose side you're on in the bigger picture.

so what should israel do, seg? wait for their targets to go stand in the middle of an empty parking lot? these guys choose to hide within the population. most of the people around them know who they are and what the risks are associated with being in close proximity to them.

i'd say israel "has" gone out of it's way. why do you think many of these guys get hit while they are moving from one hiding place to the next? less collateral damage. chance are that they only hit them at home if the know they are unlikely going to catch them in the open.
post #238 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
No matter what they are - fighting against the army is not terrorism. Bombing bridges, power plants, civilian airports, on the other hand, is.

in a time of war it is quite acceptable. in israel eyes, hezbollah's recent actions and lebanon's continued inaction was an act of war.
post #239 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
so what should israel do, seg? wait for their targets to go stand in the middle of an empty parking lot? these guys choose to hide within the population. most of the people around them know who they are and what the risks are associated with being in close proximity to them.

i'd say israel "has" gone out of it's way. why do you think many of these guys get hit while they are moving from one hiding place to the next? less collateral damage. chance are that they only hit them at home if the know they are unlikely going to catch them in the open.

Imo, the US should withdraw support for Israel - ie stop veto all UN resolutions - on condition that all sides get around the negotiating table then ALL sides should bring EVERY grievance and issue to the table and stay there till they thrash it out however many years it takes.

During this period special laws should be in force regarding unprovoked attacks, killing civilians, cutting off water or other collective punishments and of course terrorism. Anyone breaking these - ie Israel or any Arab State or cell - should be punished.

The situation we have now is exactly what happens when the law is applied selectively and some are exempt from it.

That needs fixing - not just here but right across the globe.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #240 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
in a time of war it is quite acceptable. in israel eyes, hezbollah's a recent actions and lebanon's continued inaction was an act of war.

No, it's not, exagerated targeting of civilian infrastructure is against the Geneva Convention.

Here are some figures on the death toll from October 2000 and til today, as you can see, they arn't much better.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Stati...Casualties.asp
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