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All old Israel/Lebanon threads merged in here - Page 8  

post #281 of 882
Hezbollah have been lobbing Katyusha rockets (about 100) in the recent exchange, and have admitted responsibility for all of these.

In recent breaking news, two rockets landed in Haifa, for which Hezbollah denies responsibility, but have been used by the Israelis to justify escalating violence.

The last time I checked, the standard Katyusha rockets as used by Hezbollah have a range of between 12 and 18 miles. The enhanced variety could under optimum conditions reach Haifa, some 25 miles from the Lebanese border.

Why would Hezbollah strongly deny these two particular attacks, while readily admitting responsibility for all of the others? It seems inconsistent, especially considering that Haifa has been not only been considered out of range for Hezbollah rockets, but this is the first ever time that (alleged) Hezbollah rockets have reached Haifa.

Something smells not quite kosher.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #282 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
The Israelis have a blank check to do whatever they want knowing that they have unconditional US/(UK) support, and in theory (if they could keep it a secret), it would include rounding up all Palestinians into concentration camps and gassing them to death.

And of course, being Israelis, this is exactly what they would want to do.

But, if they have such a blank cheque, why would they have to keep it a secret.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
post #283 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
And of course, being Israelis, this is exactly what they would want to do.

But, if they have such a blank cheque, why would they have to keep it a secret.

To get more blank cheques?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #284 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Thank you. You got there. But you never needed the mask - I always saw through it.

Clearly your sarcasm meter is off.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #285 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
Hezbollah have been lobbing Katyusha rockets (about 100) in the recent exchange, and have admitted responsibility for all of these.

In recent breaking news, two rockets landed in Haifa, for which Hezbollah denies responsibility, but have been used by the Israelis to justify escalating violence.

The last time I checked, the standard Katyusha rockets as used by Hezbollah have a range of between 12 and 18 miles. The enhanced variety could under optimum conditions reach Haifa, some 25 miles from the Lebanese border.

Why would Hezbollah strongly deny these two particular attacks, while readily admitting responsibility for all of the others? It seems inconsistent, especially considering that Haifa has been not only been considered out of range for Hezbollah rockets, but this is the first ever time that (alleged) Hezbollah rockets have reached Haifa.

Something smells not quite kosher.

*And she says she is not a conspiracy theorist*
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #286 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
So I guess the Hezbollah guerilla's aren't Lebanese?

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Lebanese deserve this strike. However, it is incredibly two faced to suggest that Israel started this affair.

But for this logic 'we' would have bombed the *shit* out of Saudi Arabia in retaliation for 9/11. They were all Saudi.

Of course we didn't because that logic is bullshit.

Seriously. Think about it.
meh
meh
post #287 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
BS.

India was attacked a few days back with a terrorist bomb. If because some terror cells had Pakistan connections they had flown into Pakistani airspace blowing away civilians and strafing villages then the world would be united in condemnation and you know it.

They didn't even think of it because they are civilized.

They didn't do it because Pakistan is capable of defending itself (more or less...Pakistan would lose a war but cause sufficent damage should India press the issue) AND is a US ally in reasonably good standing at the moment.

Vinea
post #288 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by vinea
They didn't do it because Pakistan is capable of defending itself (more or less...Pakistan would lose a war but cause sufficent damage should India press the issue) AND is a US ally in reasonably good standing at the moment.

Vinea

Though they still havent handed over Bin Laden, you know from the Bin Laden family that were good buddies with the Bush family. Interesting isnt it.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #289 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
An I say it seems to suit some countries a whole lot more than others.

Or so you say.

Quote:
It has when the international community wants it to. In some places, where only 50 years ago slaugthered each other, this seems to be working.

Are you talking about Europeans, who after causing two world wars are too exhausted to fight each other and so are now peaceful by default?

Quote:
In certain cases, the UN can grant it's members the right, by international law, to intervene against countires, and take away their soverignity for a period.

Not according to the UN:
Do countries surrender their sovereignty at the UN?:
The members of the UN are sovereign nations, and the UN Charter is one of the strongest safeguards of sovereignty, enshrining that principle as one of its central pillars. At the same time, most of the problems the world faces today are of such complexity that they cannot be addressed by any single nation acting alone. The UN is where the world's countries come together to address common problems. Working with other countries is an exercise of sovereignty, not a limitation of it. By cooperating in specific areas through the United Nations, States build the structures that make international life possible. Countries voluntarily decide to work together because they feel it is in their best interest. The universality and impartiality of the UN provides the common ground where countries can achieve maximum benefits from cooperation, while guaranteeing that their sovereignty will be protected.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted Immanuel Goldstein
Two examples [of Realpolitik]: the unileateral withdrawal from Lebanon, the evacuation of the Gaza settlers.

Since both where miserable failures,

How so?

Quote:
they hardly qualify as good examples of Realpolitik. They are actually better examples of Israel comming a bit closer to complying with international law.

Not really, nothing in international law says Israel should have withdrawn out of Lebanon without guarantees from Lebanon that no attacks against Israel would come from its territory, nothing in international law says Israel has to withdraw from Gaza.

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Quote:
I responded to your statemement of fact earlier.

With little good evidence.

I don't like to repeat myself but it is needed.
You said:
Of course it's practical to disregard international law when you plunder a people of their land.

To which I responded
Plunder land?
Like getting out of the Sinai with a peace treaty?
Like getting out of Gaza and the northern West-Bank without a peace treaty?

Israel has quite an impressive military machine, if it were after tracts of lands to plunder it would be all over Syria, Egypt, Jordan, UAE
My evidence is Israel not being all over Syria, Egypt, Jordan, UAE, where's yours?

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And those who cannot help themsleves get no help from those international regualtions, which is why when faced with threats to their national security or interests, states might disregard those regulations.

And this is a general rule? Was East Timor an exeption then?

See above about benevolent foreign states, it so happened some benevolent countries with means of actions were willing to help East Timor.

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Quote:
Your claim that as a general rule, settlements were built on stolen land is still unsubstantiated, and so it doesn't stand.

before 1947:
Jews mainly purchased land from [] they are in the Geneva Convention.

You are still yet to prove that, as a general rule, settlements were built on stolen land.

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Quote:
Comapring the communism of the nineteen-eighties to the then apartheid, one notices that the USSR was killing more than a million Afghans in that decade and displacing some five millions of them, while South Africa was not; and that while there were Africans migrating to South Africa from neighbouring countries (voting with their feet) people in the Soviet bloc were dreaming of getting out of there, so I say communism was worse.

Like I said; pestilence or colera. As an ideology, I still think Apartheid is worse.

You are entitled to your opinion, and me to comparing these ideologies' actual respective deeds as done above.

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So let them recognise Israel and negociate with it now. Yet they don't.

That Saudi Prince did in 2002, This time Israel refused to negotiate.

You claim now that Saudi Arabia actually and officially recognised Israel's existence, anything to back up that outrageous claim?

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Sudan will face international action in the comming months.


Or so we're told, just around the corner.

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What about france?


They often do their own thing in Africa.

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Which is the base of the legality of your country.


Which is yours?
Which is Australia's?
Which is Iran's?
Which is Russia's?
Which is Brunei's?
Which kind of a question is that?

It remains that international law did nothing to build or defend Israel, Israel owes it nothing.

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Quote:
Lucky are those who have nations-states (or sometimes, benevolent foreign states eager to help) to protect them because international law can't, and so it won't.

Yup, And thus,[some vague stuff I don't understand].

So you basically agree? Fine.

Quote:
International law is the only framwork on which we can build real coexistence, It's full of flaws (like any set of laws),

Not like any law, some rules of laws actually work moderatley well in some countries, it's the law between countries which doesn't work as shown above.

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but without it genocides are bound to be repeated.


Since genocides were repeated, one is bound to assume international law is as good as without it; which I was saying all along.

Quote:
and, once more, why are geoncides wrong?

Since you didn't understand the first time:
Genocides are murders of whole peoples, they are only wrong if one assumes that the murder of a single person is wrong, which I do.
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
post #290 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The kidnapping of Helen of Troy caused the sinking of a thousand ships, and the destruction of a whole city.

It's been a while, but doesn't Helen run off with Paris? That is, she ain't kidnapped.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
post #291 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
But for this logic 'we' would have bombed the *shit* out of Saudi Arabia in retaliation for 9/11. They were all Saudi.

Of course we didn't because that logic is bullshit.

Seriously. Think about it.

But isn't Hizbollah a Lebanese political party, and didn't they actually attack Israel from Lebanon? That makes it a bit different from how many (not all) of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia? The leadership, and the training camps, were based in Afghanistan, and we did bomb the shit out of Afghanistan.
post #292 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Same, same but different blah, blah...

On Lebanon and Gaza; Todays events should be evidence enough that israeli policies so far have failed, Realpolitik or not.

On the settlements; Since you are not allowed to settle occupied territory, the settlements in the West Bank are by default illegal / built on stolen land.

On Apartheid, Scale it up to the scale of so-called communism, and I'm certain the effects would be worse.

On international law, this basically this boils down to:

You live in a place where International Law is not respected, so you don't have faith in it. And based on that subjective experience, you don't think the framework works anywhere, and you won't listen to people saying different, and dismiss their examples.

Genocides are in your book only wrong only by assumption / personal conviction. Which following that train of thought human rights go out the door as well. Apartheid would be legal because there would be no international framework to condemn it by. Only laws of the land.
Same with torture, slavery, the right of one nation to interfere with the sovereignty of another. You name it.

So i'll press the question again; If a country legalises genocide (or slavery, or Torture). That's fine with you? Legally? If not, on what grounds?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #293 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
But for this logic 'we' would have bombed the *shit* out of Saudi Arabia in retaliation for 9/11. They were all Saudi.

Of course we didn't because that logic is bullshit.

Seriously. Think about it.

Um. No. That isn't the proper application of the logic. We would have bomb Afganistan because oh I don't know the terrorist organization behind the 911 attacks was based in Afganistan... See how that works out just right...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #294 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
But for this logic 'we' would have bombed the *shit* out of Saudi Arabia in retaliation for 9/11. They were all Saudi.

Of course we didn't because that logic is bullshit.

Seriously. Think about it.

Your right so instead we bombed the shit out of Saddam who had nothing to do with 911. Saudi Arabia even today teaches hate the Christian & Jew to 8th graders. We choose to igore that because Bush & the Royals & Bin Laden family in Saudi are butt buddies.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #295 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
It's been a while, but doesn't Helen run off with Paris? That is, she ain't kidnapped.

She was under a magic spell cast by Aprodite, who sold her into sexual slavery to Paris in exchange for him letting her win the "who is the most beautiful goddess" contest. The other two goddesses also tried to rig the contest, but did not offer quite as nice a bribe.

It was like a divine date rape drug.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #296 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by running with scissors
in a time of war it is quite acceptable.

No it is not. The Geneva Convention specifically prohibits the bombing of civilian objects.

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in israel eyes, hezbollah's recent actions and lebanon's continued inaction was an act of war.

Israel doesn't decide what's an act of war and what isn't. There are rules on that. And if we go by your rationale, Israel's bombing of Gaza and Lebanon are acts of war. So every missile, every Qasam, every suicide-bombing, every Israeli object blown up is OK.

Is it?
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #297 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Everyone I spoke to could play a little variation of six degrees of Kevin Bacon but with someone hurt or killed in a terrorist attack. Being sent into harms way is taken in stride...it was rather sad how mundane it seemed to the Israelis...1 of the 8 Israelis with us on our tour got called up to active duty in Gaza on the last day of our tour. It hit all of us Americans pretty hard but to all of the Israelis it was just a part of life. I think that all of us can agree to hope for the obsolescence of that attitude.

And why did it hit you hard that they were called up on duty, going to a place they occupied? A little less melodrama please.

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And of course if you just look at the history of Israel

I know it.

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you'd also see that from the very start the rest of the rather new states (Syria, Lebanon, et cetera all formed in the 1930s...not much more history there than Israel born in 1948) have had it out for Israel.

Sounds like a big conspiracy theory. You heard this in Israel too, right?

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I'm not saying Israel is perfect...far from it in fact. However, you really don't paint a very accurate picture of what's going on there.

Neither do you, I'm sorry.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #298 of 882
An interesting article:

Echoes of 1948 and 1967

Israel's Latest Bureaucratic Obscenity

By JONATHAN COOK

...

The Palestinian historian Rashid Khalidi once noted that the first goal of Israel's founders as they prepared to establish their Jewish state on a large swath of the Palestinian homeland in 1948 was to empty Palestine's urban heartlands of their educated elites.

Even before Israel's Declaration of Independence on 15 May 1948, most Palestinians had been terrified away from the two wealthiest cities in coastal Palestine, Jaffa and Haifa. Other Palestinian cities soon fell during the war of 1948: Israeli forces mostly cleansed Lydda, Ramle, Acre, Safad, Tiberias, Baysan and Bir Saba of their native populations. Today all these cities have been repopulated with Jews -- as well as renamed.

Khalidi has written: "These refugees from the urban areas of the country generally tended to be those Palestinians with the highest levels of literacy, skills, wealth, and education". Or, in other words, the small number of Palestinians allowed to remain in their homeland by Israel were peasant families living in isolated rural communities.

These Palestinians posed little threat to the new Jewish state: they lacked the education and tools to resist both the wholesale dispossession of their people and their own personal loss as their farm lands were expropriated by the state to establish the Jewish farming communes of the kibbutz and moshav movements.

...

How much Israel fears the presence in the occupied territories of Palestinians who have lived in the West -- those who have money and influence, and speak in a language the non-Arab world can understand -- was highlighted in another piece of news this week that went mostly unnoticed.

According to the Haaretz newspaper, Israel's interior ministry has been quietly implementing a new rule since April that allows it to refuse entry to Palestinians holding foreign passports to Israel and the occupied territories. Most of those affected are Palestinians who today have citizenship in America or Europe.

Israel has this power over these Palestinians' lives because, since its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, it has usurped control of the borders of the Palestinian territories. In another sign of how mistaken Western observers are in believing that the occupation of Gaza somehow ended with the withdrawal of Jewish settlers last year, Israel is still able to prevent Palestinians with a foreign passport (as well as those from the West Bank) from entering Gaza.

This new policy of exclusion affects thousands of the wealthiest and most educated Palestinians, some of whom have been living in the occupied territories for a decade or more investing in the economy as entrepreneurs, teaching in the universities or establishing desperately needed civil society organisations.

In another irony, many of these Palestinians have a foreign passport only because Israel stripped them of their rights to residency in the occupied territories in violation of international law. Using its control of the area's borders since 1967, Israel revoked the residency of these Palestinians while they were studying or working abroad.

...

But Israel is now unilaterally changing the rules (as it always does), even if it has been too embarrassed to declare the fact openly. Apparently the US embassy has been aware of the change for some time but does not think it should intervene in the "sovereign decisions" of another country -- or, more accurately, in the decisions of a sovereign country, Israel, in violating the rights of an occupied people, the Palestinians.

Palestinians with US passports have been told by Israel that, when their three-month visas expire, they will no longer be entitled to enter the occupied territories to visit their families -- except in rare "humanitarian cases" such as a close relative dying. Some will be separated from their spouse and children, while others will lose their businesses and everything they have invested in them.

With these foreign passport holders forced to leave the occupied territories, the pressure is sure to grow on their families left behind in Gaza and the West Bank to seek ways to emigrate abroad to be with them again.

The purpose of Israel's current bureaucratic obscenity is the same as it was in 1948 when its highest priority was the clearing of the Palestinian cities of their elites to make way for the establishment of the Jewish state.

This time Israel needs to empty the ghettoes it is crafting for the Palestinians of the most educated and well-connected of their number so that it can more credibly claim that there is no one "moderate" to talk to. Any Palestinian with a stake in an Israeli-imposed peace, even one that damages Palestinian national interests, will have been forced out by Israel's policies long before.



http://www.counterpunch.com/cook07122006.html
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #299 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
She was under a magic spell cast by Aprodite, who sold her into sexual slavery to Paris in exchange for him letting her win the "who is the most beautiful goddess" contest. The other two goddesses also tried to rig the contest, but did not offer quite as nice a bribe.

It was like a divine date rape drug.

Oh hardly! If I had a nickel for every time I've woken up with a beautiful woman who claimed that she'd been "sold into sexual slavery" because I gave Aphrodite a fly bribe to let her win a hottie goddess contest, I'd have, um, hrm.

Nevermind.

As an aside: SPELL CHECKING IN THE NEWEST FIREFOX BETA!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
post #300 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
No it is not. The Geneva Convention specifically prohibits the bombing of civilian objects.

And the Geneva convention prohibts combatants from trying to look like civilians. In any case, Isreal is not a signatory of the 1977 additions (nor is the US).

A citation would be nice too that prohibits bombing of civilian objects. The 1929 draft protocols allowed bombardment of anything that provided a military advantage or was used by the military and when ground forces were in the area.

Airfields, bridges, roads, etc count.

Vinea
post #301 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by vinea
And the Geneva convention prohibts combatants from trying to look like civilians. In any case, Isreal is not a signatory of the 1977 additions (nor is the US).

Since when have power plants and civilian objects tried to look like civilians? They are civilian objects, used by civilians, in a totally non-militaristic way. Spinning this any other way is total dishonesty.

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A citation would be nice too that prohibits bombing of civilian objects.

Here it is, Basic Rule, Article 48:

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In order to ensure respect for and protection of the civilian population and civilian objects, the Parties to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives.

Israel, by virtue of being a UN member, accepts, even if it doesn't sign, the validity and the supra-nature of that international law.

And as some food for thought, consider this:

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Article 54: Protection of Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the Civilian Population

1. Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited
2. It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas for the production of foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.
3. The prohibitions in paragraph 2 shall not apply to such of the objects covered by it as are used by an adverse Party:
1. as sustenance solely for the members of its armed forces; or
2. if not as sustenance, then in direct support of military action, provided, however, that in no event shall actions against these objects be taken which may be expected to leave the civilian population with such inadequate food or water as to cause its starvation or force its movement.
4. These objects shall not be made the object of reprisals.
5. In recognition of the vital requirements of any Party to the conflict in the defense of its national territory against invasion, derogation from the prohibitions contained in paragraph 2 may be made by a Party to the conflict within such territory under its own control where required by imperative military necessity.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #302 of 882
Quote:
Article 54: Protection of Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the Civilian Population

1. Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited
2. It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas for the production of foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.
3. The prohibitions in paragraph 2 shall not apply to such of the objects covered by it as are used by an adverse Party:
1. as sustenance solely for the members of its armed forces; or
2. if not as sustenance, then in direct support of military action, provided, however, that in no event shall actions against these objects be taken which may be expected to leave the civilian population with such inadequate food or water as to cause its starvation or force its movement.
4. These objects shall not be made the object of reprisals.
5. In recognition of the vital requirements of any Party to the conflict in the defense of its national territory against invasion, derogation from the prohibitions contained in paragraph 2 may be made by a Party to the conflict within such territory under its own control where required by imperative military necessity.

As an aside, these provisions of the Geneva Convention have been violated by the US (and Coalition) military in Iraq. As such, war crimes charges against the attackers and occupiers of Iraq are indeed appropriate. Israel and the US seem to be following each others' examples?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #303 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
How can a civilian stop a terrorist? How can they be held responsible as Israel is doing?

The people of Lebanon want peace and have had peace. It is Israel that is turning them away from that by actions like this.

This is what breeds terrorism and this is what israel has always done. Add the fact that Israel is above the law and the world is not interested in the plight of their victims and you see why the region is like it is and why terrorism has taken such root.

As a sovereign countrie, Leban should never allow Hezbollah to kidnap Isrealians soldiers or to send rockets.

For the Lebanese, at first they where happy that the Israelians soldiers where kidnapped, but now they pay an excessive beyond words price. By sympathy or lack of enough power (remember the Syrian threat, wich still exist), the lebanese power has no control on milices. This milices, and especially Hezbollah want to hurt Isreal, and we all know how Israel react ....

The results will be an another bad war in leban, and the fire in the whole middle east (again). Many civilians will be killed, or will suffer. The ecnomy of leban will collapse ...What a nightmarish vision.

That's said, you can't ask Israel to stay inactive, allowing people from other countries kidnap their soldiers or send rockets.

A situation has to be found, but it will necessary imply Hezbollah in the equation.
And yes civilians suffer of this, but unfortunately it's always the case with wars. Wars are inhumans and manytimes atrocious. But who start the war here ?
Difficult to tell : it's a suit of events.

So Segovius stop your black and white vision :
- the evil Israel
- the poor muslims people

With this kind of vision (it's also true for the reverse) you can't bring peace to the region.
post #304 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
As a sovereign countrie, Leban should never allow Hezbollah to kidnap Isrealians soldiers or to send rockets.

So, if some French citizens attack Israel, and your government has no power to stop them, it's OK for Israel to destroy your power plants, your water supply, your universities, your airports? After all, you haven't stopped them.


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That's said, you can't ask Israel to stay inactive, allowing people from other countries kidnap their soldiers or send rockets.

Of course not. Let them fight against military objects, not civilian power plants and airports. Let it destroy the group it's fighting against, not punish the people in the (illusory) hope that they will stop because the people are suffering. The more suffering you cause for the people, the more hardened they get, and the more hardened they get, the more extremist they get. And guess who they vote for?

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But who start the war here ?
Difficult to tell : it's a suit of events.

It doesn't matter. If Israel (and obviously Hizbollah) fight a conventional war, military against military, then I see nothing wrong in Israel bombing the hell out of Hizbollah. It's their indiscriminate, collective punishing that I hate because I was part of a similar collective punishing that I neither chose, nor voted for (I was 12 at the time).

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So Segovius stop your black and white vision :
- the evil Israel
- the poor muslims people

In the same token, stop the evil nazis, and innocent jewish people black and white vision. But that won't hold water, isn't it?

It's easy to blame both parties, but that's not always the case.

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With this kind of vision (it's also true for the reverse) you can't bring peace to the region.

The automatic division of guilt will not bring any peace either. Neither will collective punishment.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #305 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
And why did it hit you hard that they were called up on duty, going to a place they occupied? A little less melodrama please.

Eat me. You want to tell that to all the girls in our group that started crying upon hearing the news? You want to tell that to all of us that were scared for his safety? He was a reservist, yes. But after 9 days of seeing a very western society and feeling safer in Tel Aviv than in downtown Santa Cruz or Palo Alto, the reality of the situation was shocking...and moreso the reaction of the Israelis.


Quote:
I know it.


Sounds like a big conspiracy theory. You heard this in Israel too, right?

Clearly you don't know the history if you think that the other middle eastern nations not wanting Israel to exist is just a conspiracy theory.


Quote:

Neither do you, I'm sorry.

I paint a much more accurate picture than you do.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #306 of 882
Some updates:

Civilians this week:
Lebanese killed by Israel : at least 57 (closing in on 100)
Brasillians in Lebanon killed by Israel : 4 (why is it always the brasillians?)
Palestinians killed by Israel : at least 23
Israelis by Hizbollah : 1
Israelis by Palestinians : 0

Millitary / millitants this week:
Lebanese killed by Israel : ?
Palestinians killed by Israel : at least 42
Israelis by Hizbollah : 8
Israelis by Palestinians : 1

And then there is the material damage; Israel has done damage for several 100 million dollars. Possibly billions.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #307 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
So, if some French citizens attack Israel, and your government has no power to stop them, it's OK for Israel to destroy your power plants, your water supply, your universities, your airports? After all, you haven't stopped them.




Of course not. Let them fight against military objects, not civilian power plants and airports. Let it destroy the group it's fighting against, not punish the people in the (illusory) hope that they will stop because the people are suffering. The more suffering you cause for the people, the more hardened they get, and the more hardened they get, the more extremist they get. And guess who they vote for?

It doesn't matter. If Israel (and obviously Hizbollah) fight a conventional war, military against military, then I see nothing wrong in Israel bombing the hell out of Hizbollah. It's their indiscriminate, collective punishing that I hate because I was part of a similar collective punishing that I neither chose, nor voted for (I was 12 at the time).




Never said anywhere that the Israelian military answer was the right one. Just said that they have the right to answer.

Quote:

In the same token, stop the evil nazis, and innocent jewish people black and white vision. But that won't hold water, isn't it?

It's easy to blame both parties, but that's not always the case.



The automatic division of guilt will not bring any peace either. Neither will collective punishment.

I do not follow you here. There is a lot of differences between the Nazi oppressor and the Israelians in my book . If people disagree with me for this point : he may start a new thread ...

So there is no automatic division of the guilt. My opinion is : Isreal as the right to defend themselves , but their actions do not have to hurt other people not implicated in the Israelians attacks.

So I blame Hamas and the Hezbollah for being what they are : Islamist milices who want only one thing : the destruction of Israel.

I blame Israelians for his inneficient management against this attacks, wich seems to add more troubles than solving them.
post #308 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
So Segovius stop your black and white vision :
- the evil Israel
- the poor muslims people

Many of those you dismissively and sarcastically call 'poor Muslim people' - ie innocent people oppressed and persecuted by Israel - are actually Christians so perhaps you need to amend to:

- the evil Israel
- the poor muslims and Christian people
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #309 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I do not follow you here. There is a lot of differences between the Nazi oppressor and the Israelians in my book.

Not much difference between Nazis and Zionists though - the two even shared certain common aims during WW2 and Zionist ideology is strikingly reminiscent of Nazism in places.

And of course then there's the racism - but let's not digress...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #310 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Many of those you dismissively and sarcastically call 'poor Muslim people' - ie innocent people oppressed and persecuted by Israel - are actually Christians so perhaps you need to amend to:

- the evil Israel
- the poor muslims and Christian people

If you want.

now I dont dismis muslim people. The sarcasm was intended to you, not the people of these aeras.

Note that the other version of the Black and White vision is :
- the evil muslims terrorists
- the poor isrealians people
But Mika is not here any more ...
post #311 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
How can a civilian stop a terrorist? How can they be held responsible as Israel is doing?

The people of Lebanon want peace and have had peace. It is Israel that is turning them away from that by actions like this.

This is what breeds terrorism and this is what israel has always done. Add the fact that Israel is above the law and the world is not interested in the plight of their victims and you see why the region is like it is and why terrorism has taken such root.

When the terrorists control the southern half of your country - you only really have half a country and the terrorists have the other half. Any trade with the southern half of your country then ammounts to support of a terrorist state, which makes you fair game when somebody attacks that terrorist state to stop their terror actions.

Actually, the colateral damage against Lebanon proper is quite similar to the destruction of US shipping in WW I - the US was supplying England with goods, so they were part of the English war effort and fair game for German attacks (as long as the Germans were willing to pay the consequences, which was drawing the US into the war).
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #312 of 882
Is Nahariya, Israel a military target?

Rockets fired willy nilly at a civilian city is just an itty bitty like the Israeli acts you deem shitty.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #313 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Is Nahariya, Israel a military target?

Rockets fired willy nilly at a civilian city is just an itty bitty like the Israeli acts you deem shitty.

Israel has US weapons and nuclear warheads.
The Palestinians have home made weapons.
Hezbolla has Russian weapons.

Who do you put your money on?
post #314 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Is Nahariya, Israel a military target?

Rockets fired willy nilly at a civilian city is just an itty bitty like the Israeli acts you deem shitty.

So - Israel and Hizbollah are equal shitbags. No problem with that. Both utter scum.

That's not what you are saying though is it? Out of two sides doing the same thing you are supporting the one that does it more effectively, more ruthlessly, more often and in greater quantities.

Oh, there's a choice - two sides are killing civilians. Ho, hum, what to do - I know - I'll support the one that kills ten times as many and doesn't give a toss.......Then I'll tell everyone why they are so great.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #315 of 882
You are stabbing at the fog.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #316 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
You are stabbing at the fog.

If that last was intended for me, I would prefer the metaphor of dispersing smog (as opposed to fog) from my immediate environment so I don't become polluted myself.

The only fog I am aware of is between the ears of the brainwashed sheep and there is no point stabbing at it. There's no substance to it and nothing concrete behind it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #317 of 882
Would it be in the interest of the Lebanese government to help the IDF kill off Hezbolah?

They would get back control of the south from Hezbolah, stop Israel from considering them part of the enemy (and therefore protecting their airport, etc), and make them a strong ally in the south.

Maybe if the pro-Syrian guy had not won the last election...
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45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #318 of 882
Cnn is reporting on Tv that Hezbolla had been keeping missiles in civilian homes. More cowardly acts of war hiding under civilians,and killing civilians. The ambassodor is saying they arent striking just anyone's homes but going after those homes that are used to house and launch missiles. Imagine if the U.S. airforce wanted to house missiles in your home? This is what Israel faces.
So what else can you do except go after those missiles since Lebanon isnt doing anything about Hezbolla.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #319 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
Cnn is reporting on Tv that Hezbolla had been keeping missiles in civilian homes. More cowardly acts of war hiding under civilians,and killing civilians. The ambassodor is saying they arent striking just anyone's homes but going after those homes that are used to house and launch missiles. Imagine if your airforce wanted to house missiles in your home? This is what Israel faces.
So what else can you do except go after those missiles since Lebanon isnt doing anything about Hezbolla.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
post #320 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Eat me. You want to tell that to all the girls in our group that started crying upon hearing the news? You want to tell that to all of us that were scared for his safety? He was a reservist, yes. But after 9 days of seeing a very western society and feeling safer in Tel Aviv than in downtown Santa Cruz or Palo Alto, the reality of the situation was shocking...and moreso the reaction of the Israelis.

When you decided to go to Israel, you should have known that they have soldiers - some of them are called up on duty even. They don't hide things there, at least not this one.


Quote:
Clearly you don't know the history if you think that the other middle eastern nations not wanting Israel to exist is just a conspiracy theory.

It's a conspiracy to suggest that all middle eastern countries are this inseperable bloc that want Israel destroyed.


Quote:
I paint a much more accurate picture than you do.

Filled with tears and dubious history.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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