AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › All old Israel/Lebanon threads merged in here
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

All old Israel/Lebanon threads merged in here - Page 10  

post #361 of 882
7/14/06 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
70% of them voted for Hamas. This has nothing to do with the Palistinians - Israel has put Gaza on the back burner now that they are dealing with the northern front, so you already have your wish granted.

Why do you keep talking about Palistinians? We are talking about Lebanon and Syria.

Do you think it was a random chain of events that led to a second kidnapping just days after the first?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #362 of 882
7/14/06 at 5:33pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Do you think it was a random chain of events that led to a second kidnapping just days after the first?

No, both kidnappings were orchestrated by the puppet masters in Iran and Syria. They were planned together.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #363 of 882
7/14/06 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
No, both kidnappings were orchestrated by the puppet masters in Iran and Syria. They were planned together.

hardly. And how do you know?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #364 of 882
7/14/06 at 5:36pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by New
hardly. And how do you know?

Hezbollah and Hamas are completely funded by Iran, and Syria is the transporter of weapons to those two parties. Where do you think that Hezbollah got the 2000 missles from?

Nothing like this would be planned without approval from both Iran and Syria.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #365 of 882
7/14/06 at 5:44pm
Must be pretty comfortable to view the world completely in black and white.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #366 of 882
7/14/06 at 6:59pm
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
What would we do if Mexico constantly proclaimed that we should all be killed, funded suicide bombers in the US, fired missles into texas, etc?

You, would probably just go online and post more sexy tough talk....

"Israel has no need to get bogged down like we did in Iraq - they go in, slaughter 200,000 soldiers and get out."

"After the US elections in the fall, we go back in and split the country up, which then makes the Iranians capitulate." MMMMMM

Emphasis mine.

Israel has a right to defend itself. Short of totally annihilating a large percentage of the arab world however, such overwhelming responses will just cause more hatred and violence....which will cause more hatred and violence....which will.....

Annihilate...slaughter....sexxxxxxy.
post #367 of 882
7/14/06 at 7:11pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
You, would probably just go online and post more sexy tough talk....

"Israel has no need to get bogged down like we did in Iraq - they go in, slaughter 200,000 soldiers and get out."

"After the US elections in the fall, we go back in and split the country up, which then makes the Iranians capitulate." MMMMMM

Emphasis mine.

Israel has a right to defend itself. Short of totally annihilating a large percentage of the arab world however, such overwhelming responses will just cause more hatred and violence....which will cause more hatred and violence....which will.....

Annihilate...slaughter....sexxxxxxy.

The middle east is a state machine, and large scale slaughter is the only way to move to a new steady state. It happened in 1967, which got Egypt and Jordan off Israel's back, and it will happen again now with Syria and Hesbollah. At the end, after Syria's demise, Iran will be isolated and will progress more quickly towards western democracy.

It worked in Europe in the WWI/WWII just like it will work in the middle east over the next 20 years.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #368 of 882
7/14/06 at 7:27pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The middle east is a state machine, and large scale slaughter is the only way to move to a new steady state. It happened in 1967, which got Egypt and Jordan off Israel's back, and it will happen again now with Syria and Hesbollah. At the end, after Syria's demise, Iran will be isolated and will progress more quickly towards western democracy.

It worked in Europe in the WWI/WWII just like it will work in the middle east over the next 20 years.

Just to correct you on the history a bit...the Yom Kippur War in 1973 was a direct result of the slaughter in 1967. Despite the surprise attack by Egypt & allies, Israel recovered and held them off. Both sides declared victory despite Israel successfully defending its borders. Sadat, however, did enough to restore pride for his people to put them in a frame of mind to support peace. It was rather amusing passing by the war memorial commemorating Egypt's "victory" in 1973 while in Cairo a week and a half ago.

Anyway, the 1973 war restoring pride to Egypt's people "got Egypt and Jordan off Israel's back." Until that war, no peace was to be declared. Sorry buddy, I'm with you on a lot of this stuff but you got your facts wrong and your theory about how easy your plan will be comes crumbling down with them.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #369 of 882
7/14/06 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978

It worked in Europe in the WWI/WWII just like it will work in the middle east over the next 20 years.

Worked for whom?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
post #370 of 882
7/14/06 at 7:32pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Just to correct you on the history a bit...the Yom Kippur War in 1973 was a direct result of the slaughter in 1967. Despite the surprise attack by Egypt & allies, Israel recovered and held them off. Both sides declared victory despite Israel successfully defending its borders. Sadat, however, did enough to restore pride for his people to put them in a frame of mind to support peace. It was rather amusing passing by the war memorial commemorating Egypt's "victory" in 1973 while in Cairo a week and a half ago.

Anyway, the 1973 war restoring pride to Egypt's people "got Egypt and Jordan off Israel's back." Until that war, no peace was to be declared. Sorry buddy, I'm with you on a lot of this stuff but you got your facts wrong and your theory about how easy your plan will be comes crumbling down with them.

Both the 1967 war and the 1973 war ended with total victory for Israel, so I don't know what you are talking about. Nassar was humiliated and lost all prestige is the arab world. The key to stopping somebody from attacking you is to convince them that they have no chance of victory, which is what happend to Egypt.

The similarity to Europe is even more striking then, with the two wars and all.

A total defeat in Syria is too valuble to pass up. It is the key that will let an Israeli/Palistinian peace accord work and last. It is the key that will allow Lebanon to be self-ruled and secure. It is the key that will force Iran into a peaceful co-existance with the rest of the world.

Once this is accomplished, North Korea will be the only world threat. Appeasement does not get you anywhere, a certain amount of violence is required to set the basic configuration of the world, and after that all the diplomacy and well-being will develop to smooth over the rough edges.

Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Worked for whom?

Are you suggesting that the first two world wars were mistakes? Europe is a lot better off now with rich democracies instead of the despots and peasants of the 18th century.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #371 of 882
7/14/06 at 7:37pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The similarity to Europe is even more striking then, with the two wars and all.

Yeah, but the second war in Europe had more to do with the terrible treaty that ended the first and a lot of isolationism and appeasement in the ensuing years. It really doesn't parallel this situation at all.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #372 of 882
7/14/06 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978

Are you suggesting that the first two world wars were mistakes? Europe is a lot better off now with rich democracies instead of the despots and peasants of the 18th century.

a) I'm not suggesting anything. I asked a question requesting clarification on your point.

b) Are you suggesting that without the first 2 World Wars Europe would still be in the 18th century?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
post #373 of 882
7/14/06 at 7:42pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
a) I'm not suggesting anything. I asked a question requesting clarification on your point.

b) Are you suggesting that without the first 2 World Wars Europe would still be in the 18th century?

a) the two world wars made the world better, and not just for Europe.

b) Yes - after the 1st world war, democracies were instituted but the failed due to poor setup. The British started to muse in public that maybe the Italians and the rest of Europe were too stupid to have a working democracy.

After the 2nd world war, we put better democracies in place. Autocrats would still rule Europe without the world wars that wiped out the political order.

Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Yeah, but the second war in Europe had more to do with the terrible treaty that ended the first and a lot of isolationism and appeasement in the ensuing years. It really doesn't parallel this situation at all.

"Isolation and appeasement" sounds pretty close to "Give the poor guys a chance, try diplomacy after they attack you and kidnap your soldiers - they deserve another try. They are all acting in isolation, no connection to the larger group at all" to me.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #374 of 882
7/14/06 at 7:52pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
"Isolation and appeasement" sounds pretty close to "Give the poor guys a chance, try diplomacy after they attack you and kidnap your soldiers - they deserve another try. They are all acting in isolation, no connection to the larger group at all" to me.

That's not using the same definition of isolationism that goes along with the way the United States and other countries behaved in the 1920s and 30s. Isolationism had more to do with the US preferring to stay out of international affairs. It has nothing to do with "they are all acting in isolation."

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #375 of 882
7/14/06 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978


b) Yes - after the 1st world war, democracies were instituted but the failed due to poor setup.

Such as? And how were they poorly set up? You mention Italy.

I'm not being a troll here. You and I have gone round and round about this and we're just going to disagree, but I'm honest-to-god trying to get a better handle on what you think and why.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
post #376 of 882
7/14/06 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
[B]When you become friends with people and feel like you have known them for years...when you spend 9 days in what appears to be a normal and safer western society than that we have experienced in California...when that ideal image is shattered in an instant IT AFFECTS PEOPLE. God you are such an unfeeling douchebag.

Maybe you should cease calling me names and suggesting I don't know Israel's history - then I'll be more sensitive to your opinions.

I understand your feelings when they were called up - but it's normal there for all men to be called up. That's my point.

Quote:
Did I say that? No.

Well, not quite. You said that everyone around Israel wants to see it destroyed. Turkey is "around" Israel and doesn't want it destroyed; I think, actually, that they have some of the best relations in the region.

Quote:
After quite a bit of bloodshed on both sides, Jordan and Egypt are somewhere above Neutral but not quite Allied with Israel.

Can you blame them? Israel is killing civilians as we speak. When a terrorist group does the same, the usual response is to kill them. But when a state kills 60 civilians in 2-3 days, what should the response be? You can't kill the state, but you don't have to kiss their ass either.

Quote:
However, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, the fledgling Palestine, and Iran for that matter have all made it quite clear that they don't want an Israeli state to exist.

I disagree. All of those are pushing for a return to 1967 borders. All rhetoric aside, they all know that Israel does and will exist no matter what their views on the subject are. Hence their critique of Hizbollah.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #377 of 882
7/14/06 at 8:13pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Such as? And how were they poorly set up? You mention Italy.

I'm not being a troll here. You and I have gone round and round about this and we're just going to disagree, but I'm honest-to-god trying to get a better handle on what you think and why.

Read the book "the dark continent" - basically the democracies instituted after WWI fractured and failed due to too many political parties, and pollitical incompetance - nothing got done and everything ended in stalemate and backstabing. People started to romantisise the good old days of kings ("when the trains ran on time, by god!") , and so they re-created them in the inter-war period.

Back to my earlier point - the firebombing of Tokyo and the atomic bombs against Japan were important in that they broke the spirit of the Japanese people. The most violent and evil regime in the Eastern hemisphere was totally humbled, and out of that grew a good, rich and stable country. The process is kind of like training a military recruit, first you break them down, and then you build them back up again.

Syria needs to be broken down and built back up.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #378 of 882
7/14/06 at 8:15pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
That's not using the same definition of isolationism that goes along with the way the United States and other countries behaved in the 1920s and 30s. Isolationism had more to do with the US preferring to stay out of international affairs. It has nothing to do with "they are all acting in isolation."

No - I mean Isolation of Israel, i.e. stay out of the affairs of your neighbors, ignore it when other countries attack you, just deal with problems that you find inside your borders, and then never with force.

In other words, the plan proposed by "New".
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #379 of 882
7/14/06 at 8:19pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
All of those are pushing for a return to 1967 borders. All rhetoric aside, they all know that Israel does and will exist no matter what their views on the subject are. Hence their critique of Hizbollah.

Israel had its borders violated in 1967 - and it cannot retreat back to those borders because it cannot trust its neighbors. I wouldn't trust them either, if they had a history of planning my destruction, attacking my house, and paying others to attack my house.

Israel needs defensible borders because it has untrustworthy neighbors, so the 1967 borders are unacceptable. If France was trying to wipe out Monaco on a daily basis, the borders of Monaco would also be a touchy subject for Monacans.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #380 of 882
7/14/06 at 8:22pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Maybe you should cease calling me names and suggesting I don't know Israel's history - then I'll be more sensitive to your opinions.

I understand your feelings when they were called up - but it's normal there for all men to be called up. That's my point.

Understanding something theoretically and actually experiencing it are two very different things. I understand why I should float in the Dead Sea. That knowledge still didn't prevent me from going 'Wow!' and still feeling the initial surprise when I actually went in and floated.

And what you did was unacceptable...you belittled the feelings of my friends and shrugged them off with "well duh, you should have known." Sorry. The real world doesn't work that way pal.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #381 of 882
7/14/06 at 8:23pm
Quote:
Originally posted by vinea
[B]We're talking about the non-uniformed combatants that attempt to blend into the population they fight from. While some Hezbollah fighters are in uniform many are not. Also Hezbollah has a tendency to park military targets next to civilians for protection.

No we are not.

Quote:
The objects you describe are not civilian objects in time of war as they provide combatants with military capability. Transportation and electrical power are certainly is not "totally non-militaristic" unless you are a moron.

No, dear vinea, the moron is not me. Power plants are civilian objects, as they provide electricity for everyone. In Gaza, they also provide water because the pumps depend on them. So no electricity, no water... soon, no supermarkets, no parks, no cars, no TVs?

Quote:
Airports, power plants, roads etc are valid miltiary targets and are not prohibited by Article 48 or 52.

Yes they are. Civilian airports are not to be bombed. Roads are not to be bombed. Power Plants are not to be bombed. Universities are not to be bombed.

Quote:
The statement by Isreal that the roads, bridges, airports, etc were being used to resupply Hezbollah is to indicate that these are indeed military targets and their destruction offers a definite military advantage (reduction in the number of rockets that can be shipped in).

You believe everything Israel tells you?


Quote:
If you put ammo dumps in buildings they become military targets regardless of their non-war usage.

Provide proof that the Israeli soldier was being held in the Gaza power plant? If you can't, then that ends the debate.

Quote:
If there is no doubt that a normally civilian structure is being used for military purposes it can be struck. Only if there is insufficient intel to show military usage would Article 52 kick in.

There is no proof that the power plant in Gaza was being used by Islamic Jihad. There is proof, however, that it was being used by the civilian population, which leads us into the realm of this thing called "Collective Punishment".

Quote:
For example, if you're taking fire from a Mosque you sure as hell can drop a bomb on it. You may not do so anyway for other reasons but its not protected by Article 52.

Who was firing from the university in Gaza, the power plant, the airport in Beirut? Can you provide some proof?
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #382 of 882
7/14/06 at 8:33pm
Well, this debate is not about their feelings at all. Their feelings don't matter in the political context. You started talking about feelings, how mundane it was, and ended up saying that I don't paint an accurate picture of over there.

Since when are feelings an accurate picture? Not to discard them as the valuable things that they are, but everything has a context, and in that context, they know that they have to go to the army and they are prepared to do it.

Anyway, this is unimportant.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #383 of 882
7/14/06 at 9:24pm
The debate may not be important. Any and Many things may not be important. Feelings are important. Feelings are the reaction that people have to events that happen to them. A reponse to life's events. That appears important to me. That's how I feel.

Paz
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem to lightly...it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Thomas Paine
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem to lightly...it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Thomas Paine
post #384 of 882
7/15/06 at 12:24am
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Syria is ruled by the minority Alawite sect.

Wrong.

Asad happens to come from an Alawi family but Syria is Ba'athist and there are virtually no Alawis in positions of power. Basically the Generals run the country. And they are staunch secular Ba'athists.

Actually, technically Syria is ruled by A Christian sect - by your logic - as it the Ba'ath party was founded by a Christian. And there are far more Christians in positions of power -- and actually in Syria - than Alawis.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #385 of 882
7/15/06 at 2:34am
I'm annoyed that because there were good outcomes from a couple of wars in the last 100 years, every war everywhere in the world becomes justified and will ultimately prove beneficial for the region where it happens. How easily any wars, including precious WWI and II could take another, very different direction, that will result in a downward spiral or worse.

I guess past wars have been justifying present and future wars for thousands of years, and the difference now is we can recognize and entire world history of wars and thus justify and even greater number of conflicts.
post #386 of 882
7/15/06 at 4:24am
It seems that the claim that Hizbollah started all this by kidnapping Israeli soldiers from 'across the border' is just pure horseshit - lies spread in favour of Israel by a baised western media.

From Asia Times:

Quote:
It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.

And from Jewish daily Ynet on the 12th:

Quote:
The Hizbullah said its operatives destroyed an Israeli tank attempting to cross the border into Lebanon.

Israeli ground troops entered southern Lebanon on Wednesday to search for two soldiers captured earlier in the day by Hezbollah. (AP)

That makes them legitimate POWs and also exposes how Israel and the lapdog media Western conspire to lie, spin stories and condition minds.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #387 of 882
7/15/06 at 4:50am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Wrong.

Asad happens to come from an Alawi family but Syria is Ba'athist and there are virtually no Alawis in positions of power. Basically the Generals run the country. And they are staunch secular Ba'athists.

Actually, technically Syria is ruled by A Christian sect - by your logic - as it the Ba'ath party was founded by a Christian. And there are far more Christians in positions of power -- and actually in Syria - than Alawis.

This was kinda the case with Iraq too, if I'm not mistaken. I believe Tariq Aziz was a Christian, and a lot of the party as well.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #388 of 882
7/15/06 at 4:53am
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
This was kinda the case with Iraq too, if I'm not mistaken. I believe Tariq Aziz was a Christian, and a lot of the party as well.

Yes, it is similar. But the Ba'ath party in Syria is a split-off from the Iraqi and is not allied to it.

Strangely, many Muslims also regard the Alawis as Christians rather than Muslims due to the similarities of their beliefs.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #389 of 882
7/15/06 at 5:38am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Wrong.

Asad happens to come from an Alawi family but Syria is Ba'athist and there are virtually no Alawis in positions of power. Basically the Generals run the country. And they are staunch secular Ba'athists.

Actually, technically Syria is ruled by A Christian sect - by your logic - as it the Ba'ath party was founded by a Christian. And there are far more Christians in positions of power -- and actually in Syria - than Alawis.

It is still rule by a small minority - how many Shia or Kurds in power in Syria?
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #390 of 882
7/15/06 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
It seems that the claim that Hizbollah started all this by kidnapping Israeli soldiers from 'across the border' is just pure horseshit - lies spread in favour of Israel by a baised western media.

From Asia Times:



And from Jewish daily Ynet on the 12th:



That makes them legitimate POWs and also exposes how Israel and the lapdog media Western conspire to lie, spin stories and condition minds.

And you trust Hezbollah's version of the events more so than Israel's?

Or perhaps you don't know the full Israeli version:

Linky

Quote:
Choice Quote
According to the Israeli version, a Hezbollah raiding party had sneaked across the border early in the morning and planted landmines on a road used by Israeli Humvees, killing three of the reconnaissance patrol and capturing two near the border town of Shtula.

They placed explosive devices on the road, the Humvees drove on to them and then they fired an anti-tank missile, an IDF spokeswoman said.....

Israeli soldiers and tanks pursued the raiding party back into Lebanon, where an Israeli tank was blown up, killing four more. A fifth soldier was shot while trying to recover the stricken tank. The IDF said that a guerrilla had tried to infiltrate the western side of the border with Lebanon, but was detected and shot dead.

The Ynet story doesn't discount this, nor for that matter does the Asia Times story. So perhaps you are misinterpreting what the authors have written...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #391 of 882
7/15/06 at 9:32am
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The middle east is a state machine, and large scale slaughter is the only way to move to a new steady state. It happened in 1967, which got Egypt and Jordan off Israel's back, and it will happen again now with Syria and Hesbollah. At the end, after Syria's demise, Iran will be isolated and will progress more quickly towards western democracy.

It worked in Europe in the WWI/WWII just like it will work in the middle east over the next 20 years.


Are you from some CrAzY! US think tank that comes up with such great ideas? Aren't you satisfied with the flow of blood in Iraq for just a moment? US unlike other countries hasn't yet grasped the limitations of unlimited power - or full spectrum domination - simply it don't/won't/can't work.
It seems your paragraph above is advocting a kind of genocide - to solve a problem or two and pave a way to a new future, It is simply borrowed doctorine from Mr. Hitler himself.

FYI. The Middle East States offer a plan to peace and acceptance of Israel - it involves Israel accepting Internationally accepted borders and the tenants of International Law - Will it do so with such powerful backers exposing such ridiculous views as yours? Will it fuck! More land please.

As for 'Israel is just defending itself' Bullshit I say until I know the facts - or exactly which side of the border this occurred on. For sure in the case of the Gaza abduction it happened in Israel - however, after weeks of multiple bombings and killings of civillians in Gaza - surely one could argue Palestinians had right to defend themselves? - rather than the suicide bomb you get a direct attack on an occupation supporting army.

I would ask one question of you. According to your large scale slaughter plan for the betterment of middle east politics what percentage Israeli deaths would be an acceptable cost for you?
post #392 of 882
7/15/06 at 9:47am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
It seems that the claim that Hizbollah started all this by kidnapping Israeli soldiers from 'across the border' is just pure horseshit - lies spread in favour of Israel by a baised western media.

From Asia Times:



And from Jewish daily Ynet on the 12th:



That makes them legitimate POWs and also exposes how Israel and the lapdog media Western conspire to lie, spin stories and condition minds.

Jeezus segovius.
post #393 of 882
7/15/06 at 9:50am
Thread Starter 
The beginning of any Israel/Palestine conflict (or rather Israel/anyone) is necessarily marked by the first action of the non-Israel party.

The radical Jewish group (can we call them "terrorists"?) that kidnapped two Palestinian civilians is getting absolutely no media run.

How can people claim the media is liberal or anti-Israel when their coverage of the matter is so predictably skewed and fashioned in a way that fits the internal bias of their audience ("Israel is a morally-upstanding victim").
proud resident of a failed state
proud resident of a failed state
post #394 of 882
7/15/06 at 9:59am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by OfficerDigby
Are you from some CrAzY! US think tank that comes up with such great ideas? Aren't you satisfied with the flow of blood in Iraq for just a moment? US unlike other countries hasn't yet grasped the limitations of unlimited power - or full spectrum domination - simply it don't/won't/can't work.
It seems your paragraph above is advocting a kind of genocide - to solve a problem or two and pave a way to a new future, It is simply borrowed doctorine from Mr. Hitler himself.

FYI. The Middle East States offer a plan to peace and acceptance of Israel - it involves Israel accepting Internationally accepted borders and the tenants of International Law - Will it do so with such powerful backers exposing such ridiculous views as yours? Will it fuck! More land please.

As for 'Israel is just defending itself' Bullshit I say until I know the facts - or exactly which side of the border this occurred on. For sure in the case of the Gaza abduction it happened in Israel - however, after weeks of multiple bombings and killings of civillians in Gaza - surely one could argue Palestinians had right to defend themselves? - rather than the suicide bomb you get a direct attack on an occupation supporting army.

I would ask one question of you. According to your large scale slaughter plan for the betterment of middle east politics what percentage Israeli deaths would be an acceptable cost for you?

The same number of people would die over time regardless - because peace in the middle east will never occur without major restructuring. It is better to get it over with, and re-make a middle east that is not a hazard to the rest of the world. With politics, nobody can decide "death or no death", just "who dies and when" - you just look for the particular deaths that will lead the the best world outcome.

A war with Syria is better than a war with Iran, and dismantling Syria would force Iran to be less hostile. There would also be many other benefits to non-ruling oppressed Syrians, as well as (non-Hezbollah) Lebanese, (Syrian, Iraqi, and Iranian) Kurds, Iraqis and Israelis.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #395 of 882
7/15/06 at 11:00am
How come the only party that has the moral right to defend itself (according to the officially sanctioned US outlook) is Israel?

Is it possible to answer this question without venturing into the most verboten region of political incorrectness that exists anywhere on the planet?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #396 of 882
7/15/06 at 11:27am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
How come the only party that has the moral right to defend itself (according to the officially sanctioned US outlook) is Israel?

Is it possible to answer this question without venturing into the most verboten region of political incorrectness that exists anywhere on the planet?

I'm sure that Israel would be fine leaving Syria, Lebanon and the Palistinian territories alone, provided that it was a two-way deal. Hezbollah, Syria, Hamas, Iran have no interest in leaving Israel alone, which is the problem.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
post #397 of 882
7/15/06 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I'm sure that Israel would be fine leaving Syria, Lebanon and the Palistinian territories alone, provided that it was a two-way deal. Hezbollah, Syria, Hamas, Iran have no interest in leaving Israel alone, which is the problem.

Right, which is why there has been a long cease-fire by just these parties and why they on several occasions have proffered various deal and solutions all of which Israel has rejected.

Of course for unthinking drones this is entirely understandable as the Israeli rationale which they unquestioningly lap-up is: "they just offered a deal - we know they are liars and want to attack so they must be lying. We are utterly justified in rejecting it."

That is the version for the sheep though and I suppose it is good enough for them, intellectually taxing perhaps but it works. Unfortunately, the real agenda behind the propaganda is slightly less edifying.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #398 of 882
7/15/06 at 11:41am
Ooh look - women and children fleeing the ongoing Israeli barbarism have been slaughtered.

Rack up 17 more kills for 'the good guys'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #399 of 882
7/15/06 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
[B]I'm sure that Israel would be fine leaving Syria, Lebanon and the Palistinian territories alone, provided that it was a two-way deal. Hezbollah, Syria, Hamas, Iran have no interest in leaving Israel alone, which is the problem.

That is the impression the western news media gives to its readers and viewers, hence it is the mainstream opinion and perception that Israel is merely sitting by while getting arbitrarily attacked.

The bias is blatant beyond all bounds of description.. even down to the labeling of the participants in the dispute(s). I was watching CNN two mornings back, with Wolf "weasel" Blitzer, intervewing the Israeli and Syrian ambassadors. He let the Israeli tell his side of the story, with soft soap questions and no interruptions. With the Syrian, Blitzer's approach verged on hostile, firing off constant interruptions.

The reality of whats going on over there is so different. But that story is not permitted any space in the mainstream media.

My original question was "why"?. My ventured answer was to do with the unspoken fact that the US administration and corporate America/mainstream, media view:
Israel = good: Palestine = bad.
Zionism = worthy cause: Islamism = evil cause
Jew = good person: Arab = terrorist

And all by default, by nature.

Is the indoctrination working?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #400 of 882
7/15/06 at 12:24pm
Who said anything about Zionism being a good thing?

Regardless, what do you actually think is going on in the Mid-East Sammi Jo?

Edit: This is what I think is going on:

There are violent radicals on both sides and it is in their interest to keep the violence going. The supremely right wing Zionist move into the palestinian territories not only because they think that they have every right to do so but because they know the violent acts that follow will galvanize support from more moderate Israelis. The supremely right wing terrorist organizations attack Israeli civilians and weaken the Arab states nearby so that they may effect their own violent agenda to wage a constant religious war. That is what the extreme right wings of both sides want, and it is exactly what some segments of right wing american christians want. A perpetual religious war.

But the conflict isn't performed at such levels in public, it IS a state protecting its borders; it IS 'freedom fighters' seeking to fight injustice.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
This thread is locked  
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › All old Israel/Lebanon threads merged in here