All old Israel/Lebanon threads merged in here - Page 2  

Is that how a 'democracy' wins a war? By bombing beaches with 9 year old girls and universities with students? Does it win the war by bombing purely civilian bridges and by plunging the civilian population into darkness by destroying their energy source (and their water source, since it depends on energy).

Is that how you were taught a war is? Because that's the war of the barbarians, and not of the people.

Thats why its called war, dont start sh.. if you cant finish it. Also dont pick fights with someone bigger then you unless you want you arse kicked. Seems Hamas is doing both.

But if you are minding your own business and someone massively bigger than you starts brutalizing you and other guys much smaller than them - well, resort to unorthodox means and do whatever it takes to take them out.....just not on their terms......

How does that apply here?

If you have any complaints you should take them to your jihadi freedom fighters hiding behind these woman and children.

Jihadi freedom fighters? What do you know about jihad anyway? Bombing little girls that are playing in a beach, destroying bridges, power plants, universities, refugee camps... you think that's better than what the jihadis are doing?

You and your satellites have become worse than those you attack and you don't even notice it.

I think there is a problem with the forum ignore list: on my Mac it says This post may contain valuable information pertaining to this thread but with the people on my list there is absolutely no possibility whatsoever that this is the case - is there a fix for this?

What is it I need to know about jihad?

You and your satellites are not any better.

Israel has crossed a line here and many of its supporters have not been shy about saying that.

However, your side is positively gleeful at the opportunity to righteously bash Israel.

I must have missed your righteous condemnation the almost daily sending of suicide bombers to blow up civilian targets and the regular sending of rockets and grenades into civilian neighborhoods. You can't deny those actions have affected the way this is playing out. The Army's crazy actions did not happen in a void.

This is a mess on both sides. And it's rage-filled attitudes like yours that keep it going.
I see nothing in your posts that could begin to advance the cause of peace.

Damn right - he hasn't said a word of support for Israeli atrocities

That's precisely the problem with your side.

While most of us who are sane understand that no thinking person could support atrocities committed by either party, your side continually spreads the fiction that anyone who doesn't take the Palestinian point of view actively supports the bombing of civilian infrastructure inside Gaza.

It's a lie and you know it. But it's never been about truth with you has it?

Anyone who has done even a little mediation work knows that chastising one side of a two sided conflict is a recipe for the breakdown of the mediation.

The Israeli overreaction must stop, but so must the lawlessness and anarchy that breeds the destruction on the other side.

I don't have a side Frank - I leave that to people like you. From my pov it's quite simple: oppose fascists and Nazis wherever they are and whatever spurious legitimacy they cloak themselves with.

But seeing as you mention it, yes, Imo you are culpable in your support.

You may not allow yourself for various 'moral' reasons to actively support what you call an 'over-reaction' (actually in reality a continuation of ongoing systematic atrocities and human rights abuses but one that has for whatever reason cannot be ignored or justified) but in essence you do support this.

You support Israel by tacit non-opposition (if not actively which I also believe you do) and this is the same thing. this is what Israel is and this is what Israel does - and this is what you support.

There is no 'over-reaction'. There is just Israeli action. This is what they do. You only have a problem when you can't 'disappear' it like you do to the Palestinians as you recently so chillingly demonstrated.

Nice post and I agree.

I tell youz, it\\'s a holocaust is what it is.

You should try to research the term \\'islamofascist\\'. But what would us stupid infidel monkeys and pigs, as the koran aptly describes us, understand about the lofty goal of muhmud\\'s quest for world domination and subjugation.

I'm sorry, but I'll have to disagree. I'm not justifying any type of bombing of Israeli power plants or civilian bridges, not to mention 9-year old girls swimming in a beach.


Israel has crossed many lines here, only one of which is collective punishment. I don't see any of its supporters condemn Israel and ask that it stops the collective punishment of Palestinians. 0



So long as it keeps collectivelly punishing Palestinians I will always bash it. So long as it continues to bomb entirely civilian targets I will bash it. Because it deserves to be bashed.


Prove that it's "almost daily". Prove it.


You have to understand that Israel has the military might in this case, and its responsibility is greater because of that. Bombing bridges, universities, beaches, refugee camps... that's not how a civilized nation solves the problem of one kindapped soldier.

Show me one of your posts that begin to advance the cause of peace and I'll shut up.

Type \\'qassam\\' into a search engine, to say nothing of the daily sniping at Israeli motorists from Jihadi areas.

'Daily' means that it happens every day, 365 days a year. 'Almost daily' means that it happens at least 300 days a year.

Prove it that it happens 300 times a year, every day. Suggesting I type some random names into a search engine is not proof.

Have you tried laxatives? You want to be anal about this, you can check Isareli TV or Radio programs from the past 360 days.

An independent source, plase. Propaganda is very present on both sides.

The daily Israeli TV news programs cover these incidents with video footage.

You two really like each other, don't you?

Gene, are you seriously denying that rockets are fired regularly into Israel from the West Bank and Gaza? Where have you been living, under a rock?

Not even Hamas agrees with you.

As for the suicide bombers, I understand. The last few years when we all saw report after report of Israeli buses, shopping malls and sidewalk cafes go boom were just a collective dream.

Then of course, they tried to protect themselves with a security wall, which you also condemned as a 'land grab'.

Look at what your argument has been reduced to. Whether the Israelis have been hurt as much as the Palestinians.

Whichever side has racked up more death is irrelevant. All the killing must stop.

I asked you to prove that those rockets have been fired 'almost daily' as you claimed. So do it. It must be easy, if what you say is true.



And we also saw beaches, refugee camps, universities, bridges, mosques, houses, women, children, either killed or destroyed. Cars bombed with 500-ton bombs, houses collectively destroyed, families collectively killed... and?


Not only me, but every international court in existence, including Israel's Supreme Court. You seem to ignore the ruling of Israel's Supreme Court in this issue. Or are you going to accuse them too of 'dreaming collectively'?


Yeah, well, it will only stop when the two parties get what they want, and let go of something else that they want; a compromise.

And a compromise means equality. This is not equality.

Which can be recycled, re-edited, etc. Provide an independent source.

Let's get some perspective:

As usual this Israeli action not what it purports to be but rather is intended to pre-empt and nullify recent agreements to recognize Israel that were agreed between Fatah and Hamas. Such recognition is the last thing Israel wants. It would cease to have justification for its action and cease to hold the 'moral' ascendancy were its atrocities to continue.

The kidnapping in the first instance was intended as leverage by al-Qassam to facilitate negotiations on the release of hostages.

These hostages - women and children as already mentioned - are being held illegally (unlike the kidnapping which falls under 'act of war'). Israel are in clear violation of the Geneva Convention with this but they don't care because they have their own law which they prefer: in this case one which (like the US) legalizes torture.

The law - passed in 1997 - allows an exception to the prohibition kidnapping if the subject is an Arab. I guess this is ok - if someone passed a law allowing kidnapping for Jews it would be bad but.....

Anyway, according to Amnesty International, Israel is the only country in the world to have legalized torture (the US outsource it and deny any home-grown efforts while still admitting it is illegal). The methods which are doubtless being utilized on the women and children illegally detained, include: beatings, electric shock, sleep deprivation, forcing prisoners to remain in painful positions, violent shaking, hooding, confinement in tiny spaces and exposure to temperature extremes.

I\\'m not sure what you mean by independent, but I assure you the Israeli media is quite independent and accurate. If by independent you mean non-Israeli foreign media outlets that employ muslim stingers camera man reporters etc, such as the Associated Press, Reuters, AFP, NYT, etc., then I wont bother.

It\\'s an established fact that these overtly partisan media agencies often ignore Islamic attacks on Israelis in their reports from the region and completely omit attacks on Israelis in their chronicles of world (Islamic) terror attacks. It\\'s a disturbing pattern of propaganda by omission, but that is the reality of matter.

And then theres also the issue that often non-lethal or minor attacks on Israelis do not get mention in the international press. So if a mother and her kids drive down a road and a jihadi sniper misses her and the kids but hits the cars door or windshield, it just doesnt get reported in the international wire services. If theres a failed jihadi abduction of Israelis, it doesnt get reported in the international wire services. If theres a knife stabbing by Jihadis on Israelis, it doesnt get reported in the international wire services. If theres an attempted jihadi attack that is thwarted by the Israeli security services, it doesnt get reported in the international wire services. Instead what you get is these absurd claims by the International media that theres a lull in jihadi terror attacks against Israel, which is complete and utter nonsense.

And yes, these jihadi attacks happen on a DAILY BASIS. All you need to do is follow the Israeli press.

A legal contract requires both parties to uphold their required parts of the contract. Otherwise it is considered null and void.

The Geneva Conventions is and was intended as a Legal Contract between two warring parties. Can you imagine a business contract where one side must pay the other for services they never even pretend to do. That is asinine.

The Geneva Convention is not a one sided contract that one party can disregard and the other must still honor.

In WWII the Germans honored POW standards and we did in kind; they disregarded the dont target civilians part and well we did in kind; their saboteurs infiltrated with no uniform and they were treated to a pole+cigarette+blindfold, well you get the picture.

So basically, you have no proof.

Thought so.

If you don\\'t want to know the truth, there\\'s not much I can do for you. Keep watching BBC, CNN, etc. You\\'ll get all the truth that you can handle.

One of the main pillars of civilization is that the state, not the individual or tribe, should have the monopoly on violence. Enemy soldiers, dressed in the livery of their King, were therefore agents of the state, not to be individually punished, and to a certain degree not even to be held accountable for their acts because they were not free agents but individuals doing their Sovereign\\'s will.

We now live in an age when, for example, Hisbollah can commit what was formerly an act of war but which their Sovereign can disavow. If they have a nuke, they can blow up Paris, Toronto, Los Angeles, etc., and \\"theoretically\\", there would be \\"no one\\" whom we could retaliate against.

Civilization starts to break down when it is tacitly admitted that this private warfare is Ok. Sooner or later, though it may have been initially unintended, other entrepreneurs in the industry of violence will get the drift and act within the environment created.

Wearing a uniform puts you at some disadvantages. It makes you a target. It restricts your options. Shed your uniform and you are free of the disadvantages. But then we destroy the very incentives which international humanitarian law was created to maintain. The incentives are built on symmetric expectations.

There are only a handful of people in Muslim countries with truly impressive technical qualifications. But there are millions of these people in the West, which has many private establishments with far greater technologically advanced science than that found in jihadi societies. Expertise and money is abundant; it\\'s only the hate that\\'s missing.

Once hate is supplied then the \\"fire triangle\\" is complete. Who will induce the hate? It seems the Islamists and their apologists in the West are doing a good job of it. Who suppresses the hate? Why the West itself. No one else. Consider the lengths to which the British and French, for example, go to suppress any outbreak of anti-Muslim sentiment. Now consider the lengths to which muslim media outlets go to incite their audience to hate.

Fanaticism can only be contained for as long as populations believe their governments can provide justice. If a tipping point is reached, and enough people start to lose faith in the system, they will take things into their own hands.

The asymmetrical advantages of private and not so private Jihadi organizations such al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hisbollah, etc., are in retrospect evanescent because any anti-Muslim organization can easily emulate them.

Any environment capable of producing results on a scale that destroys a community would be sufficiently powerful to destroy Islam -- and destroy it many times over. Any weapon that AQ Khan can make can be bought by believers and infidels alike.

Theorists and practitioners of asymmetrical terrorist warfare forgot that its effectiveness depends on the very restraints that it, itself, dissolves.

It is interesting that many Jews around the world do not in fact accept that Israel is representative of Judaism and many actively oppose it.

This is interesting because in the 'popular mind' of the west there are only two positions: support of Israel or opposition (read anti-Semitism) and someone like Ahmadinejad must be an ant-Semite because he opposes Zionism. In this view there is no room or acceptance that there is a distinction - or at least a legitimate one - between Jews and Zionism.

The line pushed is that talk of 'Zionism' is merely a subset of racism and only anti-Semites would speak in this way: ie the division is a product of anti-Jewsih attitudes.

Unsurprisingly, things are not in reality thus.

Iranian Jews, for example, also do not recognize the State of Israel - a major crime in our Brave New World.

And of course there are the well known religious arguments based on Judaic law as to why Israel is founded on false principles and is in effect a rogue state veering out of control.

The Jewish Congregation in Iran - which is free to practice the Jewish religion, attend the many Synagogues throughout Iran, conduct services in Hebrew etc - has spoken out against Israel's continuing violation of international law and systematic suppression of the Palestinian people:


Link

Oh, stop making things complicated, will you!?!

Sorry....I'll try to behave.

Obviously this is all just made up ny the Iranians who probably have the Jews there under some sort of restraint and are forcing them to make these statements.

Sorry again for the deliberate misrepresentation....I'm going downtown now to turn myself in to the authorities as a danger to public order....I may be some time....

Nice to see you\\'re back in good comic form, Jester. I was starting to get a little concerned, given your last several posts.

Yes, it\\'s a real complicated situation these Jooos are in. I bet the Jooooooloving holocaust affirming mullahs made it really simple for them.

So it's not complicated?

It's a surprise that Jews don't view Israel's actions monolithically?

Europe may not have many Jews now, but in the US, they tend to be very liberal politically, and most tend to be opposed to many of Israel's actions. I remember in college when Netanyahu became PM - every single Jew I knew was horrified and depressed.

And forgive me, but I don't really buy the idea that Jews living in Iran are exactly free to express their opinions of Israel freely. I'd also like to know how many Jews are opposed to the existence of the state of Israel. What fraction of 1%? I'm sure there are as many Americans who believe the US isn't a legitimate country.

Wait. Why is this 'interesting'?

There are still more than a million jews in Europe. All european countries have a jewish minority, although mostly small, france has more than 600 000 jews.


That's probably true. But did you look into the matter any deeper? Since the revolution about 55.ooo jews have left Iran. But still 25.ooo have decided to stay. Only 13 have been forcefully expelled since 1979.


Thats probably NOT true. There are whole schools of judaism that don't recognize the state of Israel as the true israel.

I think it depends on how you phrase the question:

Do you support a Palestinian takeover of Israel?

Do you support the state of Israel as it currently exists?

Do you support a cooperative state of Israel with a equal voting rights for arabs and jews?

MOST Jews that I know think that Israel is an abomination to certain degrees as it currently exists.