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All old Israel/Lebanon threads merged in here - Page 12  

post #441 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
You need to re-read the 1967 history

I need to re-read nothing;

Wikipedia: "Israel's first and most important move was a pre-emptive attack on the Egyptian Air Force. It was by far the largest and the most modern of all the Arab air forces, consisting of about 450 combat aircraft, all of them Soviet-built and relatively new."

As I said, no matter the spinn, pro-whoever, the fact remains that Israel attacked first.
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post #442 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
I said topography. Not colors. look at the objects on the ground.

PS. Hidden bonus. Zoom in on the airstrip, and see the bombmarks.

See, topography doesn't mean objects on ground, and I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you meant something else (in particular, the vegetation that is clear on the Israeli side of the map).
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post #443 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
See, topography doesn't mean objects on ground, and I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you meant something else (in particular, the vegetation that is clear on the Israeli side of the map).

Ok, wrong word perhaps. Infrastucture then. The cultivated landscape. Not the colors. The man made stuff. On the ground.

Do bombmarks count as topograpy?
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post #444 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Ok, wrong word perhaps. Infrastucture then. The cultivated landscape. Not the colors. The man made stuff. On the ground.

Do bombmarks count as topograpy?

Depends on how deep they are...

I think that Israel could have endeared itself with its neighbors had it offered its expertise at converting the desert to something useful...
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #445 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Depends on how deep they are...

I think that Israel could have endeared itself with its neighbors had it offered its expertise at converting the desert to something useful...

Absolutly. And let them keep their water.
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post #446 of 882
Gee, forces massing on the borders...blockade in place...siege underway...Israel's army outmanned and outgunned...I wonder why they attacked.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #447 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
The same number of people would die over time regardless - because peace in the middle east will never occur without major restructuring. It is better to get it over ...


You could have simply answered that you are from the CrAzY school of American thought that war is good... Perhaps if some restructuring is required in US? Would you like your home bombed by chance? No.?. Because you're from a sophisticated democracy that is fully involved in world economy and as such can not commit a terroist act? Step outside your pseudo ivory tower and fell the pain of death and sufering. Simply I recommend to you sir to sign up and put your guts to where your opinions expouse.

I'd like to see you as a third generation refugee perhaps. Most of family dead from restructing .. political bombing.. still for the good? Yeah I'm sure..
post #448 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by OfficerDigby
You could have simply answered that you are from the CrAzY school of American thought that war is good... Perhaps if some restructuring is required in US? Would you like your home bombed by chance? No.?. Because you're from a sophisticated democracy that is fully involved in world economy and as such can not commit a terroist act? Step outside your pseudo ivory tower and fell the pain of death and sufering. Simply I recommend to you sir to sign up and put your guts to where your opinions expouse.

I'd like to see you as a third generation refugee perhaps. Most of family dead from restructing .. political bombing.. still for the good? Yeah I'm sure..

Oh - maybe you are right then. We should allow the middle east to continue on as it has been, and let it suck more and more each passing year until it eventually pulls us into a full-on global war.

We should wait to solve this issue until the human race is at the brink of extinction due to the pressures of global warming and peak oil have put extra pressure on.

Great idea! You are right, I give in.

Or else we could just kill 200K syrians next month, and save hundreds of millions later on.
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post #449 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
I need to re-read nothing;

Wikipedia: "Israel's first and most important move was a pre-emptive attack on the Egyptian Air Force. It was by far the largest and the most modern of all the Arab air forces, consisting of about 450 combat aircraft, all of them Soviet-built and relatively new."

As I said, no matter the spinn, pro-whoever, the fact remains that Israel attacked first.

Borders violated by Jordan - Check.
I'm right, you are wrong - Check.
So you change the subject, to avoid noticing this - Check.

Israel attacked first, depending on your definition of attack, but my point still stands. The 1967 borders were violated, and unacceptably hard to defend - Jordan violated the borders, and solved the problem by losing territory as a result.
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post #450 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Oh - maybe you are right then. We should allow the middle east to continue on as it has been, and let it suck more and more each passing year until it eventually pulls us into a full-on global war.

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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #451 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
...Israel's army outmanned and outgunned...I wonder why they attacked.

Well, if you when you put it that way. I sounds utterly absurd, right?

All I said, Without getting into personal opinions about what happened, is that Israel attacked first. It's a fact.

If you want to get into why. Chew on this qoute:

"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68
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post #452 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Borders violated by Jordan - Check.
I'm right, you are wrong - Check.
So you change the subject, to avoid noticing this - Check.

Israel attacked first, depending on your definition of attack, but my point still stands. The 1967 borders were violated, and unacceptably hard to defend - Jordan violated the borders, and solved the problem by losing territory as a result.

You better stop reading only wikipedia because virtually all historians consider Jordan the least agressive party in that war. They surrendered after 2 days for christ sake. What is desputed is if the Egyptian agression in Sinai and the blockade was really a build up to a military attack. Many historians don't think so. Others do.

But You, as usual, have all the answers.

Fact: "On 5 June at 7:45 Israeli time, as civil defense sirens sounded all over Israel, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) launched Operation Focus (Moked). " from your own damn source.
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post #453 of 882
From encarta:

"Because Israel feared fighting on three fronts (Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian), and because it preferred that fighting take place in Arab rather than Israeli territory, Israel decided to strike first. On the morning of June 5 the Israeli air force attacked Egypt, the largest force in the region. The timing of the attack, 8:45 am, was designed to catch the maximum number of Egyptian aircraft on the ground and to come when the Egyptian high command was stuck in traffic between homes and military bases. The Israeli aircraft took evasive measures to elude Egyptian radar and approached from directions that were not anticipated. The surprise was complete. Within hours of the strike, the Israelis, who focused their attacks on military and air bases, had destroyed 309 of the 340 total combat aircraft belonging to the Egyptians. Israeli ground forces then moved into the Sinai Peninsula and Gaza Strip, where they fought Egyptian units. Egyptian casualties were heavy, but Israel suffered only minimal casualties.

War was not far behind on Israels eastern front. Israel had conveyed a message to King Hussein of Jordan asking him to stay out of the conflict, but on the first morning of the war Nasser called Hussein and encouraged him to fight. Nasser reportedly told Hussein that Egypt had been victorious in the mornings fightingan illusion the Egyptian public believed for several days. At 11:00 am Jordanian troops attacked the Israeli half of Jerusalem with mortars and gunfire and shelled targets in the Israeli interior. Israels air force, having immobilized the Egyptian air force, turned its attention to Jordan. By evening, the Jordanian air force had been largely destroyed, again with minimal Israeli casualties. At midnight Israeli ground forces attacked Jordanian troops in Jerusalem, and by the morning of June 6, Israeli troops had nearly encircled the city."
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post #454 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
You better stop reading only wikipedia because virtually all historians consider Jordan the least agressive party in that war. They surrendered after 2 days for christ sake. What is desputed is if the Egyptian agression in Sinai and the blockade was really a build up to a military attack. Many historians don't think so. Others do.

But You, as usual, have all the answers.

Fact: "On 5 June at 7:45 Israeli time, as civil defense sirens sounded all over Israel, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) launched Operation Focus (Moked). " from your own damn source.

And if Jordan was more aggressive, the undefendable border that they attacked would have been even worse of a problem for Israel.

How many times can you change the subject before you admit that I was right and you were wrong? This was a simple statement of fact that you objected to "Israel had its borders violated in the 1967 war".
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post #455 of 882
From LexicOrient:

"1967 May: Forces on both Arab and Israeli sides of the borders are mobilized.

June 5: Israel attacks Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel achieved great victories immediately, especially on the Egyptian front, where Egyptian air crafts are wiped out after effective bombing of air strips.

June 7: The strategically important Egyptian Sharm el-Sheikh is captured.
Jordan surrenders to Israel, after having lost East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

June 8: The entire Sinai comes under Israeli control. Later that evening, Israeli fights on the Egyptian front cease.

June 10: Syria surrenders, after seeing Golan Heights come under Israeli control.
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post #456 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New

We also need to nation build in Africa, creating 1-2 superpowers there, and do a preemptive strike against North Korea (starting with a night-time raid on the DMZ based artillery stations with small scale nukes, in order to prevent them from destroying Seoul).

We only have 20 or so years to get the world into good enough shape so that we can survive the coming energy and climate problems.
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post #457 of 882
From the fucking jewish virtual library:

"On June 5, 1967, Israel was indeed alone, but its military commanders had conceived a brilliant war strategy. The entire Israeli Air Force, with the exception of just 12 fighters assigned to defend Israeli air space, took off at 7:14 a.m. with the intent of bombing Egyptian airfields while the Egyptian pilots were eating breakfast. In less than 2 hours, roughly 300 Egyptian aircraft were destroyed. A few hours later, Israeli fighters attacked the Jordanian and Syrian air forces, as well as one airfield in Iraq. By the end of the first day, nearly the entire Egyptian and Jordanian air forces, and half the Syrians, had been destroyed on the ground.

The battle then moved to the ground, and some of historys greatest tank battles were fought between Egyptian and Israeli armor in the blast-furnace conditions of the Sinai desert.

Jerusalem Is Attacked

Prime Minister Levi Eshkol sent a message to King Hussein on June 5 saying Israel would not attack Jordan unless he initiated hostilities. When Jordanian radar picked up a cluster of planes flying from Egypt to Israel, and the Egyptians convinced Hussein the planes were theirs, he ordered the shelling of West Jerusalem. It turned out that the planes were Israels and were returning from destroying the Egyptian air force on the ground.

It took only three days for Israeli forces to defeat the Jordanian legion. On the morning of June 7, the order was given to recapture the Old City. Israeli paratroopers stormed the city and secured it. Defense Minister Moshe Dayan arrived with Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin to formally mark the Jews return to their historic capital and their holiest site. At the Western Wall, the IDFs chaplain, Rabbi Shlomo Goren, blew a shofar to celebrate the event."
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post #458 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Israel attacked first, depending on your definition of attack, but my point still stands. The 1967 borders were violated, and unacceptably hard to defend - Jordan violated the borders, and solved the problem by losing territory as a result.

So Israels borders were violated, in a war thay started? That makes no sense. Completely.
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post #459 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
So Israels borders were violated, in a war thay started? That makes no sense. Completely.

Egypt started the war via troop movements, invasion/death threats and port blockades, causing Israel to attack.

But it is also besides the point. I was right and you were wrong - Jordan violated Israel's borders.
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post #460 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
[B]Egypt started the war via troop movements and port blockades, causing Israel to attack.

They were moving their troops, into their own territory, and as a sovereign nation they have that right. They blocked their own ports, and again, as a sovereign nation, they have that right.

You don't start wars just because you move your troops and block your ports.

Quote:
But it is also besides the point. I was right and you were wrong - Jordan violated Israel's borders.

When you saw your argument being destroyed - you just changed it. Classic.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #461 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
They were moving their troops, into their own territory, and as a sovereign nation they have that right. They blocked their own ports, and again, as a sovereign nation, they have that right.

You don't start wars just because you move your troops and block your ports.



When you saw your argument being destroyed - you just changed it. Classic.

Yes you do start wars for those reasons, because you have a responsibility to protect your citizens. If Mexico moved a million troops to the border, blocked our ports, and threatened to soak US soil with American blood, we would attack them also.

But I am not the one changing the subject - I am still waiting for New to admit he was wrong. Jordan violated Israeli borders in the 1967 war.
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post #462 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
But I am not the one changing the subject - I am still waiting for New to admit he was wrong. Jordan violated Israeli borders in the 1967 war.

What's your major malfunction? How can you have your borders violated in a war you start!?!
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post #463 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
We also need to nation build in Africa, creating 1-2 superpowers there, and do a preemptive strike against North Korea (starting with a night-time raid on the DMZ based artillery stations with small scale nukes, in order to prevent them from destroying Seoul).

We only have 20 or so years to get the world into good enough shape so that we can survive the coming energy and climate problems.

ok, I get it, You're not a real person, You're just a joke identity created by someone to amuse themselves on the internet.
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post #464 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
ok, I get it, You're not a real person, You're just a joke identity created by someone to amuse themselves on the internet.

No, actually I really believe what I am saying. Israel can seriously advance the cause of world peace by sending Syria into civil war after an attack that destroys most of their military.

Once Syria is gone, no more support for Hizbollah (because Iran has no direct supply link to Lebanon), and Iran is forced to temper its aggressive attitude.
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post #465 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
What's your major malfunction? How can you have your borders violated in a war you start!?!

They didn't start the war, and this conversation is starting to bore me, so I guess that means you win.
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post #466 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
They didn't start the war, and this conversation is starting to bore me, so I guess that means you win.

If they fired first - they did start the war.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #467 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
If they fired first - they did start the war.

That's a rather unsophisticated statement.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #468 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
That's a rather unsophisticated statement.

As opposed to 'they started firing first, but they didn't start the war' ? Please.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #469 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
As opposed to 'they started firing first, but they didn't start the war' ? Please.

Are you telling me you can't think of a single situation where the person firing the first shot isn't the one who started it?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #470 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
If they fired first - they did start the war.

What about provocation?
post #471 of 882
Israel's pre-emptive action in 1967 was easily justified. As someone said in another thread on the subject, don't start nonsense if you can't finish it.

This is the crazy Middle East we're talking about. You don't mass troops on anyone's borders and threaten to soak the ground with their blood. Not unless you intend to actually do it.

It's sad that the anti-Israel crowd has to actually fall back on justifying that kind of behaviour to argue their case. Very sad.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
post #472 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by OfficerDigby
Step outside your pseudo ivory tower and fell the pain of death and sufering. Simply I recommend to you sir to sign up and put your guts to where your opinions expouse.

No, no, no. Don't you know that the "remote control warriors" around here make crazy macho suggestions because someone else's dad or brother or friend will be doing the fighting and bleeding for them?
post #473 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
Israel's pre-emptive action in 1967 was easily justified.

That statement is illogical.

Maybe you meant "Israel's pre-emptive action [..] was righteous."

It couldn't possibly be "justified", because, due to the very nature of pre-emptive action, the hypothetical action you are acting against never ends up happening.
post #474 of 882
Ok, I see your point. My point was that it was the correct thing to do, given the circumstances.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
post #475 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Are you telling me you can't think of a single situation where the person firing the first shot isn't the one who started it?

A war? No. Starting a war because a neighboring country is moving its troops around is like shooting someone because he/she put his/her hand in his/her pocket. It could be a gun they're reaching for - but it could also be some candy.

Chucker:

Quote:
What about provocation?

A lot of people are provoked, provoke, and instigate provocation every day. That doesn't mean that one should fight with them. There are daily provocations in the Grecian-Turkish border but whens the last time you heard them starting wars about it?
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #476 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
A lot of people are provoked, provoke, and instigate provocation every day. That doesn't mean that one should fight with them. There are daily provocations in the Grecian-Turkish border but whens the last time you heard them starting wars about it?

I personally agree, but if a war can't be started based on provocation, virtually every war of the 20th century is illegitimate.
post #477 of 882
There is always the option of letting mediators / superpowers / the UN have a go at it before dropping the bombs.

If you read more in-depth sources from the war, there is clear indication, that there was much room for diplomatics. And that the Egyptians did not want war.

June 2, 1967:

" 1517. Eyes Only for President and SecState from Robert Anderson.

1. There follows a summary of my talk with President Nasser. Unless otherwise indicated, I will be trying to express his point of view to me.

2. After exchange of pleasantries, Nasser said he became worried and afraid of Israeli attack because of speeches and his own intelligence of mobilization by Israel and the intelligence shared with Syrian Govt. As an example, he stated that 13 brigades were mobilized near Syria.

3. Nasser explained that he did not want repetition of 1956 affair when he was reluctant to believe that an attack had begun and was slow in moving troops to Sinai only to be caught between the Israelis in the north and the British at Port Said. He said he felt he had no choice but to mobilize and send troops to Sinai, which he did, and request the removal of UN forces. While he did not say so, I believe he was surprised at the rapidity of the removal of UN troops because he said they were only a token force and would have created no real obstacle.

4. He was asked specifically if he intended to begin any conflict and he said to please explain to my govt that he would not begin any fight but would wait until the Israelis had moved. This was qualified by saying that he did not know what the Syrians would do and had worried all day (Wednesday)/2/ for fear the Syrians might start something out of anger because of the pact which he had made with Hussein. He also stated, that, contrary to most public opinion, he did not have control over the radical elements of refugee organizations who were interested only in starting a conflict because they had no real responsibility for the conduct of military affairs. He was asked if this conflict occurred, for example, if Syria should attack against his desires, whether he would respond and he answered affirmatively, saying that any conflict begun, whether in Jordan or Syria, would necessarily bring response from him. "

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/jo.../xix/28057.htm

Paints a pretty different picture, right?
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #478 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
Oh - maybe you are right then. We should allow the middle east to continue on as it has been, and let it suck more and more each passing year until it eventually pulls us into a full-on global war.

We should wait to solve this issue until the human race is at the brink of extinction due to the pressures of global warming and peak oil have put extra pressure on.

Great idea! You are right, I give in.

Or else we could just kill 200K syrians next month, and save hundreds of millions later on.

No No, you heard me wrong what we should do is force Israel to obey international law . Force it to remove it's 40 year old illegal settlementers (all 400,000 of them), force it to stop collective punishment, force it to stop internment of men, women and children - basically force it to become a normal country. Not one festering on an prolonged occupation with a massive hidden agenda. Once it becomes a 'normal' country perhaps it could even label Jewish terrorism as terrorism. Only when you put an even hand to each side can then you put force behind each of them to keep them on staight and narrow.

Basically your approach has been used for last 40 years in a drip-drip style and to massive negative cost recently in Iraq. US is already paying massively for this ridiculous foreign policy. You forget that it was US support for the Shah that led to the present situation in Iran., that Saddam was then created to be the answer to fix Iran by US. And that Syria/Israel is just relic of the cold war games between US and CCCP.
You imagine that if you kill 200,000 Syrians you can make yourself safe by genocide. You'll have to kill all muslims/arabs and then the christians in middle east to 'be safe' you fool. Have you met a Syrian? Just normal people crappy government - bit pissed off about parts of their country being occupied by Israel etc.
I could equally answer that just by wiping out all of US (the only country to use a nuclear weapon) then the world might be safer place in a few years... No wait now I sound like more extreme than Bin Laden - must be a terrorist - Perhaps I'm awaiting than strike on my bedroom in few moments!

Sometimes I wonder if the reason for these bizzare beliefs in US is somehow down to the fact that it has never really suffered in occupation/war loss on it's own soil. Never realised the futility of it - like in the way Europe has. The most it has seen is a slight bloody nose.. Never really seen how war on terror don't work if done in the wrong way rendition/guantanamo etc etc.
post #479 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by OfficerDigby
No No, you heard me wrong what we should do is force Israel to obey international law . Force it to remove it's 40 year old illegal settlementers

It was doing that, obviously it didn't work. Israel withdrew from Lebanon, from the gaza strip, and was starting to dismantle west bank settlements, and the terrorist attacks continued.

Israel has two options: destroy its enemies, or be destroyed - peace can only come after one or the other is achieved, your suggestions will not lead to peace.

"Normal people, crappy government" - great, they will like it when the government goes away and we replace it with a representative democracy.
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post #480 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Paints a pretty different picture, right?

No, it is the same old bs by a pollitician. "I don't want to attack, even though I said I did and I am preparing for an attack - but one might happen anyway because I can't control the situation".

Oh - poor me, I am president of a country threatening to attack a neighbour, and I can't quite figure my way out of it!

And also - Syria attacked first by shelling border villages, come to think of it.

Same pattern as now from Syria - constant attacks and funding others to attack, but Egypt and Jordan no longer participate, the 1967 war must not have hit Syria hard enough, time to rectify that and get them off the case also.
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