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All old Israel/Lebanon threads merged in here - Page 3  

post #81 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Wait. Why is this 'interesting'?

I find it interesting for specific reasons - but the fact that you ask how shows you don't share these reasons or possibly know what they are - or if you do, you do not find them interesting.

All fair enough.

But the situation won't change by my explaining my reasons for finding it interesting so I won't elaborate.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #82 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
It's a surprise that Jews don't view Israel's actions monolithically?

It is a surprise to the degree that one is subject to a bi-polar reductionist mindset. Those who are not obviously wouldn't find it so surprising, Unfortunately they seem to be in a minority.

Quote:
Europe may not have many Jews now, but in the US, they tend to be very liberal politically, and most tend to be opposed to many of Israel's actions. I remember in college when Netanyahu became PM - every single Jew I knew was horrified and depressed.

Me too.

Quote:
And forgive me, but I don't really buy the idea that Jews living in Iran are exactly free to express their opinions of Israel freely.

Well they criticized him openly enough for his remarks on the Holocaust - what exactly do you think would happen to them?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #83 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I find it interesting for specific reasons - but the fact that you ask how shows you don\\'t share these reasons or possibly know what they are - or if you do, you do not find them interesting.

All fair enough.

But the situation won\\'t change by my explaining my reasons for finding it interesting so I won\\'t elaborate.


LOL. The comedy never stops.
post #84 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius

Well they criticized him openly enough for his remarks on the Holocaust - what exactly do you think would happen to them?


Maybe they\\'ll be assigned the patriotic task of clearing mines, crawling on their belly through a minefield.
post #85 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
Maybe they\\'ll be assigned the patriotic task of clearing mines, crawling on their belly through a minefield.

HEy Mika, is that you?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #86 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
Maybe they\\'ll be assigned the patriotic task of clearing mines, crawling on their belly through a minefield.

Nah - the US will kill the remainder off when they carpet bomb and reduce the country to glass. Takes the edge of a bit I guess but you probably think it worth it in the long run....

Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs eh?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #87 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Nah - the US will kill the remainder off when they carpet bomb and reduce the country to glass. Takes the edge of a bit I guess but you probably think it worth it in the long run....

Can\\'t make an omelette without breaking eggs eh?


I think the Mullahs are playing a game of Empire that they\\'re not in a position to play. I think the Pakis outsmarted them, and basically have given them the rope with which to hang themselves.
post #88 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
I think the Mullahs are playing a game of Empire that they\\'re not in a position to play. I think the Pakis outsmarted them, and basically have given them the rope with which to hang themselves.

Pakis = racist.

That's got to be a posting violation. Strike one.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #89 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I find it interesting for specific reasons - but the fact that you ask how shows you don't share these reasons or possibly know what they are - or if you do, you do not find them interesting.

All fair enough.

But the situation won't change by my explaining my reasons for finding it interesting so I won't elaborate.

Simply put: My family is Jewish, and none of us have the blind attitude towards Israel that one would need to take in order to accept its actions. AND we are not alone in the community. Thus, I find it unusual to think that people find diverse viewpoints from an unstated academic religious group unusual enough to make them interesting.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #90 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Pakis = racist.

That\\'s got to be a posting violation. Strike one.


Russkies be second? Yankies a third?
post #91 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Simply put: My family is Jewish, and none of us have the blind attitude towards Israel that one would need to take in order to accept its actions. AND we are not alone in the community. Thus, I find it unusual to think that people find diverse viewpoints from an unstated academic religious group unusual enough to make them interesting.

Fair enough - I am aware of all that but they are not the reasons I find it interesting.

Besides, I was not primarily speaking of people in the Jewish community - of course they would be aware of all shades of nuances of opinion and belief related to their own heritage past and present.

I was thinking more of the simplistic and reductionist way in which virtually all issues - not just this one - are presented for public consumption these days.

Let's face it, things seem to be perceived in black and white terms by an increasing number of people and so anything that falls outside these parameters is by default 'interesting'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #92 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Do you support the state of Israel as it currently exists?

Do you support a cooperative state

What's a cooperative state, like a big kibbutz?
(The dream ideal of my youth)
Quote:
of Israel with a equal voting rights for arabs and jews?

Equal voting rights for Arabs and Jews? That's the way Israel currently exists.

As for the rest, who'd have expected an officially recognised Iranian Jewish organisation to publically express the official opinion of the Islamic republic of Iran?
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


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« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
post #93 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
It's a surprise that Jews don't view Israel's actions monolithically?

Europe may not have many Jews now, but in the US, they tend to be very liberal politically, and most tend to be opposed to many of Israel's actions. I remember in college when Netanyahu became PM - every single Jew I knew was horrified and depressed.

And forgive me, but I don't really buy the idea that Jews living in Iran are exactly free to express their opinions of Israel freely. I'd also like to know how many Jews are opposed to the existence of the state of Israel. What fraction of 1%? I'm sure there are as many Americans who believe the US isn't a legitimate country. [/B]

That is echoed here in California, certainly amongst many of my Reform Jewish friends... the greater majority being politically liberal (reflecting mainstream Jewish political thought). The slaying of PM Rabin, then the backlash against the ineffectual Barak which brought two hardliners Netanyahu and Sharon.. (and now Olmert).. has brought about a sense of profound disappointment and fear within much of the Jewish community here. I have talked with people at length about this all this and there seems to be an unwritten consensus that these Israeli hardliners are ultimately acting against the interests of Jewish people not just in Israel, but all over the world.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
post #94 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
What's a cooperative state, like a big kibbutz?
(The dream ideal of my youth)

No. I mean as shared palestinian/jewish state -- give palestinians israeli citizenship and go from there.

Quote:

Equal voting rights for Arabs and Jews? That's the way Israel currently exists.

Fair enough. I am often surprised that we don't here from arab political parties in Israel, I am also surprised that we don't see joint political parties...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #95 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
What's a cooperative state, like a big kibbutz?
(The dream ideal of my youth)

No. I mean as shared palestinian/jewish state -- give palestinians israeli citizenship and go from there.

I see, it's the miracle-formula popular wherever neither Israelis nor Palestinians live; for it is something neither Arab Palestinians nor Israeli Jews want.
Arab Palestinians want their own Arab nation-state, Israeli Jews like having their own nation-state too.

Quote:
Quote:
Equal voting rights for Arabs and Jews? That's the way Israel currently exists.

Fair enough. I am often surprised that we don't here from arab political parties in Israel, I am also surprised that we don't see joint political parties...

I cannot know why you don't hear about it.
Raam-Taal is an Arab nationalist party, it sent four MKs to the Knesset in the March 2006 elections.
Balad (Motherland) is another nationalist Arab party, it has three MKs.
Hadash is a nominally joint party as it is the current incarnation of the Israeli Communist party in league with several smaller movements, it also has three MKs.
There are Arab MKs representing other parties such as Nadia Hilow of the Labour party, several left-of-centre Israeli parties have have a significant Arab constituency.
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
post #96 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein

I see, it's the miracle-formula popular wherever neither Israelis nor Palestinians live; for it is something neither Arab Palestinians nor Israeli Jews want.
Arab Palestinians want their own Arab nation-state, Israeli Jews like having their own nation-state too.

I am not sure why anyone would not want it.

It is racist (or at least ethnocentric) on both sides, and to be honest completely unacceptable ethically.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #97 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I am not sure why anyone would not want it.

Probably for the same reason why the Poles wouldn't want to be part of some Russo-Slovak confederacy, or why the Bangladeshi didn't just want to be Eastern Pakistan.

Quote:
It is racist (or at least ethnocentric) on both sides, and to be honest completely unacceptable ethically.

Do you mean that all nation-states are racist, unethical?
Feh Ireland! Why can't it just be part of England?
Shame on Armenia, what don't they like about being in Greater Turkey?
And then there's India, giving up on being the Crown's jewel.
Not to mention the whole process of de-colonisation, now stricken down as ethically unacceptable or even downright racist!
Then there are those countries which are not nation-states, having no affinity to any ethnic identity whatsoever and yet keeping themselves distinct, like Canada keeping itself apart from the USofA, what's the deal with them?
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
post #98 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Probably for the same reason why the Poles wouldn't want to be part of some Russo-Slovak confederacy, or why the Bangladeshi didn't just want to be Eastern Pakistan.


Do you mean that all nation-states are racist, unethical?
Feh Ireland! Why can't it just be part of England?
Shame on Armenia, what don't they like about being in Greater Turkey?
And then there's India, giving up on being the Crown's jewel.
Not to mention the whole process of de-colonisation, now stricken down as ethically unacceptable or even downright racist!
Then there are those countries which are not nation-states, having no affinity to any ethnic identity whatsoever and yet keeping themselves distinct, like Canada keeping itself apart from the USofA, what's the deal with them?

Self-determination is one thing, Nationalism on the basis of racial or ethnic identity sounds familiar.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #99 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Do you mean that all nation-states are racist, unethical?_

A state is not a nation-state unless it is totally dominated by one ethnic group. Israel is not a nation-state because it has a significant number of minorities, anywhere from 15-25%._

Theoretically, Israel could become a nation-state only if it drove out Palestinians (the ones that are "lucky" enough to have Israeli citizenship) or if it adopts a law that says that only those with pure Jewish descent are to be citizens; others need to leave.

There are no nation-states today, with the possible exclusion of Japan and Iceland. _The term is used impresicely for a state that tries to promote one single national identity ("culture"), usually in the form of language._

Israel is trying (what with the name "The Jewish State of Israel" and all) but it's not there yet. It's stupid to want that anyway. And it goes for both Israelis and Palestinians._
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #100 of 882
Thanks for reminding me of that fact Gene Clean...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #101 of 882
Mind you, it's not a nation-state only because of historical consequences; it couldn't drive all Arabs out of the country, so it had to do what it had to do (offer them some type of citizenship, though not exactly as equal as it should be). Israel is not an ideal nation-state, but it does act like one, starting from it name. Any democratic state, promoting equality amongs its members would not have named itself after its biggest religious group. Same goes for Iran.

In any case, Zionism, as laid down in Israel's Independence Charter of 1948, is the official policy of the Israeli state, and Zionism, as such, has been declared to be racist by the UN in 1976 (later "retracted" due to tremendous US pressure, 1991). My point was, Israel is not racist because it's a nation-state (whose behaviour could be somehow justified due to its overwhelming ethnical "purity") - it's racist because, well, it has adopted a racist doctrine as its official policy.

Simple as that._
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #102 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Mind you, it\\\\\\'s not a nation-state only because of historical consequences; it couldn\\\\\\'t drive all Arabs out of the country, so it had to do what it had to do (offer them some type of citizenship, though not exactly as equal as it should be). Israel is not an ideal nation-state, but it does act like one, starting from it name. Any democratic state, promoting equality amongs its members would not have named itself after its biggest religious group. Same goes for Iran.

In any case, Zionism, as laid down in Israel\\\\\\'s Independence Charter of 1948, is the official policy of the Israeli state, and Zionism, as such, has been declared to be racist by the UN in 1976 (later \\\\\\"retracted\\\\\\" due to tremendous US pressure, 1991). My point was, Israel is not racist because it\\\\\\'s a nation-state (whose behaviour could be somehow justified due to its overwhelming ethnical \\\\\\"purity\\\\\\") - it\\\\\\'s racist because, well, it has adopted a racist doctrine as its official policy.

Simple as that._


I say we flood Arabia with a billion Chinaman from Tibet and let them enjoy their multi culti paradise.

Edit: Why do they call it Arabia? Is it reserved for arabs only?
post #103 of 882
Edit: This is directed at no one.

Eat rat poison and die.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #104 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
Edit: Why do they call it Arabia? Is it reserved for arabs only?

For the same reason they call it America - reserved for Americans only.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
post #105 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
For the same reason they call it America - reserved for Americans only.

And who decided who\\'s an Arab and who\\'s not. And why is it reserved for Arabs only?!
post #106 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
And who decided who\\'s an Arab and who\\'s not. And why is it reserved for Arabs only?!

And who made the reservation? Hmmm??
post #107 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
Edit: Why do they call it Arabia? Is it reserved for arabs only?

Is Jesusland reserved for Christians only?
post #108 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Outsider
And who made the reservation? Hmmm??


Yes. I\\'d like to meet with the hotel manager.
post #109 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Is Jesusland reserved for Christians only?

Is that in Arabia?
post #110 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Probably for the same reason why the Poles wouldn't want to be part of some Russo-Slovak confederacy, or why the Bangladeshi didn't just want to be Eastern Pakistan.


Do you mean that all nation-states are racist, unethical?
Feh Ireland! Why can't it just be part of England?
Shame on Armenia, what don't they like about being in Greater Turkey?
And then there's India, giving up on being the Crown's jewel.
Not to mention the whole process of de-colonisation, now stricken down as ethically unacceptable or even downright racist!
Then there are those countries which are not nation-states, having no affinity to any ethnic identity whatsoever and yet keeping themselves distinct, like Canada keeping itself apart from the USofA, what's the deal with them?

Self-determination is one thing, Nationalism on the basis of racial or ethnic identity sounds familiar.

I don't understand you.
Do you mean that some ethnic identities can have nation-states and others not, depending on whose identity it is?
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
post #111 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Do you mean that all nation-states are racist, unethical?

A state is not a nation-state unless it is totally dominated by one ethnic group. Israel is not a nation-state because it has a significant number of minorities, anywhere from 15-25%._

No. A nation-state is one whose sovereignity has an affinity to a national or ethnic identity (Ethnos being the Greek word for nation) and its culture.
Italy is the nation-state of the Italian nation even though some of its citizens are not ethnically Italians (like the German-speaking Tyrolians of Alto-Adige). Spain is the nation-state of the Spaniards even though it has many sizable minorities such as the Basques, the Catalans, the Gallegos. Iran is the nation-state of the Persians even though it has many minorities (Azeri, Balotchi, Arab, Kurd) and Persians are only slightly over 50% of the population.
Most countries in the world are nation-states and most of them have minorities. [Edit: Russia is the nation-state of the Russian nation even though it has innumerable minorities; the Russian language actually has two different words for Russian: one for ethnic Russian: Russki, and one for a non-ethnically Russian inhabitant of Russia: Rossiyani.]

Quote:
There are no nation-states today, with the possible exclusion of Japan and Iceland.

In your own little world, perhaps.

Quote:
_The term is used impresicely for a state that tries to promote one single national identity ("culture"), usually in the form of language._

The term is misused by you to mean a country without significant ethnic minorities.

Quote:
Israel is trying (what with the name "The *Jewish* State of Israel" and all)

The name is not The Jewish State of Israel, it's The state of Israel (officially: Medinat Israel and Dawlat Israil, because this nation-state grants co-official status to the main minority language).

Quote:
but it's not there yet.

Sez you.

Quote:
It's stupid to want that anyway. And it goes for both Israelis and Palestinians._

So most people in this world are stupid according to you, fine. Perhaps they know a thing or two you don't, like the poor track record of trusting one's collective welfare in some other collective, not to mention knowing what a nation-state actually is.
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
« Jparle pas aux cons, ça les instruit. »

From Les Tontons Flingueurs


חברים יש רק באגד
post #112 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein

I don't understand you.
Do you mean that some ethnic identities can have nation-states and others not, depending on whose identity it is?

No, I am saying its wrong, period.

National identity and ethnic identity should never be parsed together, ever.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #113 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
No, I am saying its wrong, period.

National identity and ethnic identity should never be parsed together, ever.


It goes against the multi culti ideal.

Edit: Until Sharia is enforced.
post #114 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
No, I am saying its wrong, period.

National identity and ethnic identity should never be parsed together, ever.

Then whats the point in having nations at all?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #115 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Then whats the point in having nations at all?

Choice.

Each nation can choose its mode of government be it left-wing, wing-nut, jihadi or Communist and the individual has the choice of which regime to live under.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #116 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Then whats the point in having nations at all?

Um, "establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity"

There is no need to tie ethnicity up in that at all...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
post #117 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Um, \\"establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity\\"

There is no need to tie ethnicity up in that at all...



Ethnos being the Greek word for nation, completely escapes your progressive thinking.
post #118 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Choice.

Each nation can choose its mode of government be it left-wing, wing-nut, jihadi or Communist and the individual has the choice of which regime to live under.

Not really. Many of the nations of the world have had their borders drawn with rulers by occupiers and some have such a divers ethnic mix, that there is no wonder they are in a constant state of chaos.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #119 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Um, "establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity"

Do we need nations to accomplish that?
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
post #120 of 882
Quote:
Originally posted by occam whisker
Ethnos being the Greek word for nation, completely escapes your progressive thinking.

Nation actually comes from Latin; meaning to be born in.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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