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Portability engine promises Windows games for Mac

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 
A company specializing in software portability technology has released a portability engine that is supposed to give game developers the power to deploy Windows-based games on Intel Macs almost instantly and without the need for traditional arduous porting.

On its Web site on Thursday, TransGaming introduced the "Cider" portability engine, proclaiming that: "No longer will Mac users be forced to wait months or years for the few top tier titles to get into their hands."

The Toronto-based company said Cider is so effective that publishers will be able to simultaneously deploy the Mac and Windows versions of their titles "with little to no effort", even with games already under development.

"Cider is a sophisticated portability engine that allows Windows games to be run on Intel Macs without any modifications to the original game source code," the company said. "Cider works by directly loading a Windows program into memory on an Intel-Mac and linking it to an optimized version of the Win32 APIs."

According to TransGaming's product information, developers need only to maintain one code base in order to target multiple platforms. Windows games wrapped in the Cider portability engine are said to use the same copy protection, lobbies, game matching and connectivity as the original title.

Additionally, the company said, games migrated to Intel Macs using Cider will also run on Linux under Cedega, allowing developers to forge a path to two game hungry markets at the same time.
post #2 of 36
wooo this is nice.
post #3 of 36
Yay!!

They'd better port all the oldies too!
post #4 of 36
Too bad that you need a AIO or a high end desk top to get good video on a intel mac.
post #5 of 36
YES!!! This is awesome! And it perfectly coincides with my permanent forsaking of computer games as I head off to burry my face in books at school!! Oh, the beautiful, painful irony! I feel especially masochistic right now. I think I'll go buy a copy of F.E.A.R. just so that I suffer by not installing it!
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post #6 of 36
I hate to burst your bubble, but calm down everyone.

This is just the same as thier Cedega product for Linux.

Basically, the games will run, but there will be bugs, and they will be very slow! i.e. you wont be able to run them high res etc. They run about 5x slower than normal.

This is cool - but it will never brign PC gaming to the mac.

Sorry guys! \
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post #7 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by revs

I hate to burst your bubble, but calm down everyone.

This is just the same as thier Cedega product for Linux.

Basically, the games will run, but there will be bugs, and they will be very slow! i.e. you wont be able to run them high res etc. They run about 5x slower than normal.

This is cool - but it will never brign PC gaming to the mac.

Sorry guys! \

You just couldn't keep your mouth shut could you. Now look what you've done, now you made me cry. Thanks alot - DREAMKILLER.
post #8 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barabas

You just couldn't keep your mouth shut could you. Now look what you've done, now you made me cry. Thanks alot - DREAMKILLER.

lmao. The rule still applies then: If you want the grooviest games, you gotta pay the same price as everyone else: Windows XP (the XP stands for Experience Points, and the "WINDOWS" is base 26. You get one XP for each minute you spend tweeking your pc to get your game work right. When you hit "WINDOWS" XP, it'll work perfectly! It's in the license agreement, I swear! )

*edit* By the way, if you're curious, that comes out to be 7,218,473,938 Minutes, or 13724.38 years, just to get ONE game to work right!!! Of course, if you get the Microsoft Plus! package, then you get a free upgrade to 1 XP every SECOND. So it only takes you 228.7 years. Sounds like a good deal to me! 8)
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #9 of 36
I have to say, I feel like an old fogey when people go on about gaming. Don't get me wrong, I was all about games... when I was 16.

Is it that wrong to think that gaming is a little silly when you're an adult? I mean, I don't think any less of someone who games, but when they start bitching about their computer because it won't game... It's just weird.
post #10 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by revs

I hate to burst your bubble, but calm down everyone.
This is just the same as thier Cedega product for Linux.

That is not what their website says.
post #11 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevenmrgan

I have to say, I feel like an old fogey when people go on about gaming. Don't get me wrong, I was all about games... when I was 16.

Is it that wrong to think that gaming is a little silly when you're an adult? I mean, I don't think any less of someone who games, but when they start bitching about their computer because it won't game... It's just weird.

The two primary problems I've experienced with gaming are:

A) Experiencing a tendancy to loose touch with reality. I experienced this first hand when I was stationed in Korea in the Army. With nothing else to do really, (unless I wanted to go get drunk) I spent countless hours behind the computer engrossed in a fantasy world. It gets very hypnotic, to the point that if I now hear certain music that I played often while gaming, I remember with an almost obscene vividness the FANTASY WORLD that I was in at the time. No recollection at all of actual physical location, only the artificial location. It's kind of spooky. I suspect that may be similar in some way to what many Vietnam era veterans experience due to severe PTSD. So that's the first.

B) Time. It's just in too short supply. If one honestly has no other asperations in life, and has no purpose, then gaming is a fun way to whittle away the hours. In my experience though, after the point that I started acquiring some honest goals and ambitions for my future, I really REALLY began to regret the time that I was spending on things that weren't helping me acomplish them. It's painful to be actively holding yourself back from your goals and have full knowlege of it. I think it comes from a sense of inertia in our lives- the feeling that it's better to stick with the old habbits than to work really hard psycologically on ourselves (or physically; Ever try to loose 30 pounds?) to establish a new habbit (like studying chemistry in the dorm room instead of the bar) that doesn't provide an immediate sense of gratification.

Ok, back to the dorm room chemistry! (Geeze! don't you HATE dorms?)
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #12 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

The two primary problems I've experienced with gaming are:

A) Experiencing a tendancy to loose touch with reality. I experienced this first hand when I was stationed in Korea in the Army. With nothing else to do really, (unless I wanted to go get drunk) I spent countless hours behind the computer engrossed in a fantasy world. It gets very hypnotic, to the point that if I now hear certain music that I played often while gaming, I remember with an almost obscene vividness the FANTASY WORLD that I was in at the time. No recollection at all of actual physical location, only the artificial location. It's kind of spooky. I suspect that may be similar in some way to what many Vietnam era veterans experience due to severe PTSD. So that's the first.

B) Time. It's just in too short supply. If one honestly has no other asperations in life, and has no purpose, then gaming is a fun way to whittle away the hours. In my experience though, after the point that I started acquiring some honest goals and ambitions for my future, I really REALLY began to regret the time that I was spending on things that weren't helping me acomplish them. It's painful to be actively holding yourself back from your goals and have full knowlege of it. I think it comes from a sense of inertia in our lives- the feeling that it's better to stick with the old habbits than to work really hard psycologically on ourselves (or physically; Ever try to loose 30 pounds?) to establish a new habbit (like studying chemistry in the dorm room instead of the bar) that doesn't provide an immediate sense of gratification.

Ok, back to the dorm room chemistry! (Geeze! don't you HATE dorms?)

This is exactly how i feel about gaming. I spend enough time browsing the web, reading forums and digging articles. Thats my version of "gaming" for those who are into their games. In the end, its fun, but its all just more wasted time.
IMO consoles are best for the casual gamer, and lets face it - mac users are casual gamers. If you were a hardcore gamer, you WILL own a PC.
post #13 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan22t

That is not what their website says.


Yep. Think that those who think it will be slow on Mac or Linux are wrong. I think that they are trying to get programmers to think about the way they are implementing API's so that they are compliant with all three systems. The two real catches here are that, 1) there is a lag between when Microsoft updates Direct X and when TransGaming adds support to do the same thing; and 2) Game makers like to make their games get the most out of the hardware and since there will be lag time in updating TransGaming's Cider game makers would have to be working with less than is available. But as to TransGaming being buggy I can only say that my mates think its great. And finally. If there is a way for me to run most of my Games under Mac OS, even if there was a performance hit I would. I really hate MS Windows... even though I do have boot camp.
post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevenmrgan

I have to say, I feel like an old fogey when people go on about gaming. Don't get me wrong, I was all about games... when I was 16.

Is it that wrong to think that gaming is a little silly when you're an adult? I mean, I don't think any less of someone who games, but when they start bitching about their computer because it won't game... It's just weird.

Seconded.

b
post #15 of 36
I'll believe this works well when I see some independent tests.
post #16 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon

Too bad that you need a AIO or a high end desk top to get good video on a intel mac.

Is it really that bad without a dedicated graphics card? seems such a pitty
post #17 of 36
This is good news in that it may increase the number of games available 'on the Mac'.

However the fact that Cider is a developer product and not an end-user product has both good and bad aspects.

It is good in that it allows TransGaming to provide a more Mac like experience (for installing and running), but it is bad in that this is likely to make make 'conversions' more expensive than the 'PC' original, and it is very VERY bad in that you will not simply be able to get an off-the-shelf copy of say Halo2 and run it on your Mac. This last issue is particularly important because can anyone seriously see Microsoft working with TransGaming to allow Mac users to run their games? Never mind that logically this would increase sales (of games) for Microsoft, they absolutely will not do anything to hep Mac users even if it would make them more money.
post #18 of 36
My games have to be multiplayer for me to spend incredible amounts of time with them. Otherwise I get depressed thinking about what I'm doing.
post #19 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

My games have to be multiplayer for me to spend incredible amounts of time with them. Otherwise I get depressed thinking about what I'm doing.

Ha ha. I know the feeling. So here's a question for everyone: How many games do you own, and of those, how many have you actually played through to the end? Without cheating?



Me: 69 games, 24 completed, 14 of those without cheating. pretty sad, ne?
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post #20 of 36
i like playing computer/console games.

i think games are inherent to our human nature. we tend to play, to seek entertainment. playing video games is probably better than watching the tube. with games at least you're in command, making decisions, reacting. tv forces you to take a passive role.

games also come in handy when you are waiting for something/someone. ever been in an airport for two hours? one good cell phone game or a palm with games makes all the difference.

have you ever taken your wife/gf shopping? this week i went to the mall and i forgot my Palm in the car. waiting without nothing else to do is boring.

when i get home from work i like to play madden nfl 2006 on my nintendo gamecube. why? because i am not an nfl general manager/coach/quarterback/defensive tackle and it's entertaining to indulge in that fantasy world for a short period of time. it's just entertainment, just like going to the movies or dancing or posting on apple computer forums on the internet.

of course too much of anything can be a problem, but for the most part i think video games are an ok form of fun, as long as you don't forget to eat, sleep, work and shower.
post #21 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by revs

I hate to burst your bubble, but calm down everyone.

This is just the same as thier Cedega product for Linux.

Basically, the games will run, but there will be bugs, and they will be very slow! i.e. you wont be able to run them high res etc. They run about 5x slower than normal.

This is cool - but it will never brign PC gaming to the mac.

Sorry guys! \


Not really true. Ive used Cadega for years, even back when it was still called WineX. It works quite good for supported games. Now the main difference in Cider and Cadega is that Cadega is for end users to try to get games working. Its requiring you to do most of everything yourself. Cider is not the same thing, its a similair type package sold to the developer of the game, and the developer of the game will package it and test it and get it working right with Cider, before shipping it. The end user never even has to know Cider was invloved, itll work just like a standard OSX app. It just majorly cuts costs to make a Mac port of a WIndows game. Depending on how much time they spend making sure it runs right, it should run anywhere from 80 to 90% of the native speed it would in Windows on the same hardware.
post #22 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123

its a similair type package sold to the developer of the game, and the developer of the game will package it and test it and get it working right with Cider, before shipping it.

That's where I see the biggest problem. Making games cross-platform would be fine if developers didn't limit themselves to using Windows APIs. There's also the matter of whether they want to target Mac gamers anyway when there are so few of us because they then have much more testing time and more support costs for probably very little return. They would also have to license this cider software and why would they risk tying their software to something that might be unstable?

It's a nice idea but so is W3C compliance.
post #23 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

Time. It's just in too short supply. If one honestly has no other asperations in life, and has no purpose, then gaming is a fun way to whittle away the hours. In my experience though, after the point that I started acquiring some honest goals and ambitions for my future, I really REALLY began to regret the time that I was spending on things that weren't helping me acomplish them.

I suppose your time spent posting here at AI is in some way helping you to accomplish your life goals? Perhaps you aspire to be a gossip collumnist?

Anyways, I don't see what's so hard about installing Windows on a MacIntel, and rebooting to play games. Yeah it would be harder to play games while you work, but isn't that a good thing?
post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Dawg

I suppose your time spent posting here at AI is in some way helping you to accomplish your life goals? Perhaps you aspire to be a gossip collumnist?

Heh, good point. Aside from inanity (which is certainly a waste of time) AI forums provide me with a place to engage my mind and keep it well oiled. Can't reasonably reply to good logic when in a daze. As someone else said though, too much of a good thing is very bad.
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post #25 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Dawg

I suppose your time spent posting here at AI is in some way helping you to accomplish your life goals?

Ever heard 'Buy on rumor, sell on fact"? I have actually been surprised at how often insights provided by members here (and on Slashdot and others for example) have affected my stock moves. Ironically, I have made some serious money on tech stocks for years. If you want the truth about tech companies, read what the geeks are saying.

Oh, and another vote for Celemourn's post. Although I do indulge the habit occasionally. All work and no play...
"I'm learning how to meditate, so far so good."
Donald Fagen and Walter Becker
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post #26 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by digiology

Is it really that bad without a dedicated graphics card? seems such a pitty

the gma 950 sucks at 3d.
post #27 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon

the gma 950 sucks at 3d.

http://www.nvidia.com/page/mxm.html

you would think that this type of thing would have become a standard a LONG time ago... Hope Apple decides to impliment it.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #28 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

http://www.nvidia.com/page/mxm.html

you would think that this type of thing would have become a standard a LONG time ago... Hope Apple decides to impliment it.

You realize, of course, that this would make a MacBook thicker, heavier, more power-consuming and hotter?
post #29 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

You realize, of course, that this would make a MacBook thicker, heavier, more power-consuming and hotter?

Depends on whether Apple chose to use MXM 1, 2, or 3. If they went with the low power MXM 1 or 2, then heat would be minimal. Footprint I suspect would be affected regardless, since it's no longer a chip on the board, but now a replacable module, but I doubt the impact would be that great. the graphics chip has to have a certain amount of space for heatsink etc anyway, regardless of where it's positioned.

Idealy I'd like to see the MBP have MXM 3 slots in them, that way you can use whatever level card you want (you can use a 1 or a 2 in a 3, but a 3 only fits in a 3).

It's kind of like what the auto industry was doing a few years back: Build em to break. Car was good for 5 or 6 years, then you basically had to replace the whole thing. Along come Toyota, Honda and a few others, and they started building cars to last. Now look what's happening go GM and Ford. Apple is a higher quality manufacturer anyway, so this model, like what toyota did, by extending the longevity of their products would behoove them. If I have to replace my laptop ever 2 years cause the graphics are no longer cuting the mustard, then why the heck should I go with a premium box? I can just get a junker $400 windows discount special. There has to be a very compelling reason for consumers to pick you when you have the small bit of the market share.

I think Apple would benefit from this, and I don't feel that any minor size sacrifice that had to be made would be that much of a problem, especially since, if you don't want it hot, you can just get a wimpy gpu.

And I'm solidly convinced (for now anyway. ) that the consumer would benefit from it. After I got my G3 Wallstreet back in 98, I SWORE that I would never get a laptop as my primary computer again, for the sole reason that the GPU is never upgradable. And then I went and built a PC... but that's another story, and a mistake I try to forget.

Anyway, for your consideration.
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post #30 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

Footprint I suspect would be affected regardless, since it's no longer a chip on the board, but now a replacable module, but I doubt the impact would be that great.

Why do you think socketed CPUs and GPUs are uncommon? Footprint.

Quote:
the graphics chip has to have a certain amount of space for heatsink etc anyway, regardless of where it's positioned.

It currently just has a heatpipe connector. An MXM-style heatsink would take up a lot more vertical space —*something Apple keeps trying to cut down on.

Quote:
If I have to replace my laptop ever 2 years cause the graphics are no longer cuting the mustard, then why the heck should I go with a premium box? I can just get a junker $400 windows discount special. There has to be a very compelling reason for consumers to pick you when you have the small bit of the market share.

Why would you replace your laptop that often?
post #31 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

Why do you think socketed CPUs and GPUs are uncommon? Footprint.



It currently just has a heatpipe connector. An MXM-style heatsink would take up a lot more vertical space —*something Apple keeps trying to cut down on.
.
.
.

Why would you replace your laptop that often?

Because the graphics are no longer cutting the mustard. Personally, I get very frustrated by slow choppy graphics, while I also thrive on running the newest software. I've succeeded in resigning myself to the fact that if I want high end graphics I have no choice but to go with a desktop or tower, but by gosh, they are anoyingly big, heavy, and non portable. As to the heatpipe, point taken. I haven't seen the guts of the MBP so I'm not familiar with what kind of heat management it uses. But let me ask this: If it's the same gpu chip, why does being modular require better cooling? When you upgrade, I can see it becoming an issue, especially if the new gpu is significantly hotter, but just having it in a modular fashion I don't see as causing any different need for cooling. Course that could be part of the MXM specs (I looked at them many months ago and then promptly forgot what they were), so the point may still be valid. Then again, Apple has very good engineers, who have proven their ability to squeeze tons of junk into absurdly small spaces. However, I see utility even without future upgrades in mind: If someone enjoys having a large display, but doesn't need massive graphics capabilties, they can BTO a 15" or 17" MBP and select a 950 gpu to save money. If someone really REALLY wants powerful graphics, but needs a small computer, they could get a MB with an x1800 mobility board in it. (yes, such a MB would prolly be a bit thicker.)

There are always trade-offs in technology. I suspect that in this case they would be offset by the benefits though.

Consider as you like.
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post #32 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

But let me ask this: If it's the same gpu chip, why does being modular require better cooling?

As far as I know, a soldered chip can be cooled better than a socketed one. The heat is simply transferred a lot easier.

But I'm not a physics guy.

Quote:
Then again, Apple has very good engineers, who have proven their ability to squeeze tons of junk into absurdly small spaces.

By making compromises! Compromises such as soldering instead of socketing, getting rid of expansion bays (as a Wall Street PB owner, you probably remember those), downgrading from a dual-layer drive to a single-layer one, etc. Lots of compromises that lots of would-be customers frown upon.
post #33 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

The two primary problems I've experienced with gaming are:

A) Experiencing a tendancy to loose touch with reality. I experienced this first hand when I was stationed in Korea in the Army. With nothing else to do really, (unless I wanted to go get drunk) I spent countless hours behind the computer engrossed in a fantasy world. It gets very hypnotic, to the point that if I now hear certain music that I played often while gaming, I remember with an almost obscene vividness the FANTASY WORLD that I was in at the time. No recollection at all of actual physical location, only the artificial location. It's kind of spooky. I suspect that may be similar in some way to what many Vietnam era veterans experience due to severe PTSD. So that's the first.

B) Time. It's just in too short supply. If one honestly has no other asperations in life, and has no purpose, then gaming is a fun way to whittle away the hours. In my experience though, after the point that I started acquiring some honest goals and ambitions for my future, I really REALLY began to regret the time that I was spending on things that weren't helping me acomplish them. It's painful to be actively holding yourself back from your goals and have full knowlege of it. I think it comes from a sense of inertia in our lives- the feeling that it's better to stick with the old habbits than to work really hard psycologically on ourselves (or physically; Ever try to loose 30 pounds?) to establish a new habbit (like studying chemistry in the dorm room instead of the bar) that doesn't provide an immediate sense of gratification.

Ok, back to the dorm room chemistry! (Geeze! don't you HATE dorms?)

You played videogames during the Korean War?!

Was this some prehistoric Pong prototype or are you some sort of Time Traveler?!

Peddle your witchcraft somewheres else!
post #34 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac~N~Cheese

You played videogames during the Korean War?!

Was this some prehistoric Pong prototype or are you some sort of Time Traveler?!

Peddle your witchcraft somewheres else!


lmao

Hmm, maybe I never left the fantasy world?!

Actually, I was in Korea from November 2000 to November 2002.

Although, I DO have a really old RadioShack Pong type game. You plug it into the TV and then turn knobs. It has a little speaker that goes *blip!* 8)

*edit* And that's "World of Witchcraft" thankyou very much. ;-D <jab>
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post #35 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

As far as I know, a soldered chip can be cooled better than a socketed one. The heat is simply transferred a lot easier.

But I'm not a physics guy.



By making compromises! Compromises such as soldering instead of socketing, getting rid of expansion bays (as a Wall Street PB owner, you probably remember those), downgrading from a dual-layer drive to a single-layer one, etc. Lots of compromises that lots of would-be customers frown upon.

Actually, I think we'd need an engineer to figure that one out. I don't see why a heat pipe couldn't be used on the graphics module. But we have only conjecture on that subject, I think.

As far as compromises, very true. And yes, I like my expansion bays. You're right, that's definately the direction they've been heading, and now that I consider it, additional upgrade options do lead away from that KISS principle they've been following.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #36 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

As far as I know, a soldered chip can be cooled better than a socketed one.

just as an afterthought to clarify the discussion, rememeber that MXM GPUs are on daughterboard, rather than being socketed like a desktop processor. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though and assume that's what you meant.
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