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Briefly: Apple on Vista, Leopard, retail windows - Page 2

post #41 of 136
Ok, but MS's lead is only because of it's lead. MS is supported only by inertia if Vista falls through. If Office winds up not being well-liked (the interface change is semi-divisive), then OO.o could get a bit of a boost, and if Vista bombs, people will look at Macs.

Apple's winning here isn't 50% of the market, it's more like 15. All Apple and Linux need to do is loosen MS's grip and get it to about 75% market share. Then Windows developers are gonna look at Mac and Linux and see that they can add a lot to their profits by coding for them. If a competitor starts a Mac port, you darn well better too.
post #42 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign Pulver

Oh, and "Hasta la vista, Vista " is sheer brilliance.

UMMM...No; not only is it the most obvious pun in computing this decade, it has been used by everyone. The first place I saw it was a slashdot comment in the story announcing the Longhorn->vista thing.
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post #43 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWhaler

Vista is already delayed, and everyone knows it is going to be delayed again. There is nothing stopping Microsoft from delaying it by another 6 months and adding in whatever is missing from Visa that Apple announces for Leopard.

MS's problem is that Vista is so big that adding features causes a lot more problems elsewhere. If Vista adds Leopard features, it'll have a lot more bugs creep up, and it won't come out until early 2008 or so, when everyone is talking about 10.6

Additionally, if Leopard beats Vista, it creams XP. Like lays waste to it. And if users start thinking about XP as "7 year old technology", it's gonna look embarassing for MS. Additionally, XP doesn't have much SMP support - I think it has issues beyond 2-4 cores, if I hear right. It also doesn't have HD-DVD or Blu-Ray support. Microsoft would have to release an SP3 with those features, or OEMs are gonna be shipping PCs that are limited by Windows XP. And 4 cores is coming this Christmas, and will be in mid-range Dells by Q2 2007. If Vista isn't out, than quad-core iMacs or whatever Apple has there will dominate quad-core Windows machines, just because of the superiority of the OS.
post #44 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

Ok, but MS's lead is only because of it's lead. MS is supported only by inertia if Vista falls through. If Office winds up not being well-liked (the interface change is semi-divisive), then OO.o could get a bit of a boost, and if Vista bombs, people will look at Macs.

Apple's winning here isn't 50% of the market, it's more like 15. All Apple and Linux need to do is loosen MS's grip and get it to about 75% market share. Then Windows developers are gonna look at Mac and Linux and see that they can add a lot to their profits by coding for them. If a competitor starts a Mac port, you darn well better too.

There no that apple is going to get 75% market share with it's os locked to its hardware.
post #45 of 136
I know that. I meant reduce Windows to 75% market share (from 94% or whatever it is now). Apple could take 15% of the market, and Linux 8-10%.
post #46 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

MS's problem is that Vista is so big that adding features causes a lot more problems elsewhere. If Vista adds Leopard features, it'll have a lot more bugs creep up, and it won't come out until early 2008 or so, when everyone is talking about 10.6

Additionally, if Leopard beats Vista, it creams XP. Like lays waste to it. And if users start thinking about XP as "7 year old technology", it's gonna look embarassing for MS. Additionally, XP doesn't have much SMP support - I think it has issues beyond 2-4 cores, if I hear right. It also doesn't have HD-DVD or Blu-Ray support. Microsoft would have to release an SP3 with those features, or OEMs are gonna be shipping PCs that are limited by Windows XP. And 4 cores is coming this Christmas, and will be in mid-range Dells by Q2 2007. If Vista isn't out, than quad-core iMacs or whatever Apple has there will dominate quad-core Windows machines, just because of the superiority of the OS.

Both good comments Zach.

I don't disagree with you at all. I am just being cautious given Microsoft's remarkable success at making Windows a "good enough" copy of Apple's OS to keep serious switching from happening. I just don't want MSFT to be so embarrassed that they abort their current release schedule.

I think Apple's original plan--and in part why they pushed back WWDC this year--was to announce Leopard's features late enough in Vista's development cycle that Microsoft would be stuck and the die cast. MSFT would be embarassed for many years.

But I think Vista has been delayed beyond anyone's expectations, and this makes a window of opportunity for Microsoft--especially if the feature and design gap is wide enough--to simply take the hit and delay Vista. Hell, they can take another year, it's not like the stock is going to go much lower at this point.

Obviously, I am rooting for Apple here. I want either MSFT to be stuck with Vista and Leopard to blow away the market. And my dream scenario is that Leopard is such an epic series of innovation MSFT has no choice but to release what they have and try better with SP6 in two years.

But with all that said, I agree with your points. As I said in my original post, I am being very pessimistic given how lackluster--both in features and in quality--Tiger has been. But I am hoping tomorrow Apple shows us what they are capable of.
post #47 of 136
Tiger was a developer release. There were something more than a dozen major (or at least non-trivial) new APIs added to Tiger. I see Leopard consolidating that. I mean, I think Dashboard and Exposé were tossed on at the last minute to add some "end user" stuff to the release. I mean, with all the APIs and working on the Intel switch, there wasn't much up-front stuff for Tiger.

In so far as stuff that Apple is going to be in a great position to improve further from Tiger:

Dashboard
Spotlight (this has enormous potential)
Core Image
Q2D Extreme
Boot Camp
X11
post #48 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

MS's problem is that Vista is so big that adding features causes a lot more problems elsewhere. If Vista adds Leopard features, it'll have a lot more bugs creep up, and it won't come out until early 2008 or so, when everyone is talking about 10.6

Additionally, if Leopard beats Vista, it creams XP. Like lays waste to it. And if users start thinking about XP as "7 year old technology", it's gonna look embarassing for MS. Additionally, XP doesn't have much SMP support - I think it has issues beyond 2-4 cores, if I hear right. It also doesn't have HD-DVD or Blu-Ray support. Microsoft would have to release an SP3 with those features, or OEMs are gonna be shipping PCs that are limited by Windows XP. And 4 cores is coming this Christmas, and will be in mid-range Dells by Q2 2007. If Vista isn't out, than quad-core iMacs or whatever Apple has there will dominate quad-core Windows machines, just because of the superiority of the OS.

<in a feeble voice> "Yall whipper snappers don't know how good you gots it! Why, I remember when I was your age, you could fit a WHOLE OPERATING SYSTEM on a lil ole 800k floppy! What's a floppy? <sigh> Kids these days!"
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post #49 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

Because those points fail to address Vista's worth as an operating system?

I like Mac os x but don't like what apple is doing with there hardware with think like

No mid-range head less systems

Forced to get an AIO or a high end workstation to get good video

apple high costs you get laptops with bigger screens, real video cards, more ram, bigger Hard Drives, and more for just about the same price as the base Mac book.

I would like to have a amd 4x4 system runing Mac os x and a system like is cheaper then a workstation and does not use high cost FB-DIMMS and will be better the intels quad-core that are just 2 duel core that are linked by a FSB the 4x4 can also use AMD up comeing quad-core too.
post #50 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

<in a feeble voice> "Yall whipper snappers don't know how good you gots it! Why, I remember when I was your age, you could fit a WHOLE OPERATING SYSTEM on a lil ole 800k floppy! What's a floppy? <sigh> Kids these days!"

post #51 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ai51240


Frightening fact: On my tower, XP started as a 500mb installation, plus about 1gb for the page file. Now, after installing SP2, it's rocking its way at about 5 GB plus about 4 GB of page file. And that's JUST the os, not including ANY 3rd party aplications. I have those on a separate partition. Frightening. I REALLY HATE to think what vista is going to do. Anyone have a spare 250GB drive I can use as my system disk?

*edit* Oh, and that was XP Home. no clue what pro or 64 would do.
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post #52 of 136
yes Joe, but there are two catches:

1) In order to afford to sell software-only, OS X would have to cost $200 or more.
2) Apple would have a hard time supporting every motherboard/graphics card/printer/camera under the sun. This is what causes a lot of windows headaches - driver issues and whatnot.

Oh, and a Mac Pro will cream a 4x4 in processing power, and Quad-SLI hasn't proven all that useful just yet. If there is a Quad 2.0 Mac Pro with SLI, it'll kill any 4x4. I mean, Quad SLI is gonna cost more than SLI'd 7900GTs and is gonna be like 10% better (because of paralellization issues and bus issues. And 2.0 GHz Woodcrest will beat any FX that isn't heavily overclocked. Yes, FB-DIMMs are a pain in the butt, I'll admit. Also, a 1333 GHz FSB is not gonna be a huge bottleneck in a dual-dual situation. A dual-quad situation maybe, but generally it's only in 8+ processor environments that HT proves a huge plus over a fast FSB (which is not to say it doesn't beat an 800 MHz FSB, but 1333 is a different story)
post #53 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

Frightening fact: On my tower, XP started as a 500mb installation, plus about 1gb for the page file. Now, after installing SP2, it's rocking its way at about 5 GB plus about 4 GB of page file. And that's JUST the os, not including ANY 3rd party aplications. I have those on a separate partition. Frightening. I REALLY HATE to think what vista is going to do. Anyone have a spare 250GB drive I can use as my system disk?

*edit* Oh, and that was XP Home. no clue what pro or 64 would do.

To be fair here, I do somehow have just under 6 GBs of Virtual Memory ATM. I have 768 MB of RAM, and I'm running AOL, Adium, Firefox, iTunes, and Mail. That's something Apple could work on fixing in Leopard. I don't really care, since I have about 18 GB of HDD space free, but it's not like Vista is the only HDD hog.
post #54 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

To be fair here, I do somehow have just under 6 GBs of Virtual Memory ATM. I have 768 MB of RAM, and I'm running AOL, Adium, Firefox, iTunes, and Mail. That's something Apple could work on fixing in Leopard. I don't really care, since I have about 18 GB of HDD space free, but it's not like Vista is the only HDD hog.


*Shudder* oh how I loath virtual memory! Remember when you would use virtual memory on your old IIsi because you couldn't afford the REAL ram? and remember when you upgraded to a brand new 601, you turned the tables and started using a RAM disk? ahh, the days of manual allocation! just get like 50TB of ram and call it good.
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post #55 of 136
Yeah - I remember virtual memory back on the Performa, but even then, it was only like 2x your real RAM. But here there's an awful lot of VM to go around at 6 GB, it's like 8 times the amount of RAM
post #56 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon

I would like to have a amd 4x4 system runing Mac os x and a system like is cheaper then a workstation and does not use high cost FB-DIMMS and will be better the intels quad-core that are just 2 duel core that are linked by a FSB

duel = fight
dual = two

I'm not sure which you refer to. Intel's 51xx Xeons are not linked together by the FSB (each socket has its own dedicated channel), though the Kentsfield is linked by FSB. So far, the 51xx series chips is proving to be the performance king in the workstation and dual socket server market. The successor to Kentsfield will not be linked by FSB, will have a shared cache. Apple's chosen route for Mac Pro isn't clear yet, I hope that is cleared up during the keynote.

I do agree with you though that the lock-in isn't helping acceptance. I think their hardware is nice, but I only really want their OS, there are plenty of times when their hardware doesn't suit my needs.
post #57 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

duel = fight
dual = two

I'm not sure which you refer to. Intel's 51xx Xeons are not linked together by the FSB, though the Kentsfield is. The successor to Kentsfield will not be. For the 5100, each processor socket has its own channel to the chipset. Apple's chosen route isn't clear yet.

I do agree with you though that the lock-in isn't helping acceptance. I think their hardware is nice, but I only really want their OS, there are plenty of times when their hardware doesn't suit my needs.

I primarily want the MacOS because it's a load more stable than Win. I also love Apple's industrial design. But I want a tablet and Apple hasn't given any significant indications that they will ever produce even so much as a convertable (I don't really care for the slate idea. Tablet is more useful to me as a suplimental input system, rather than a substitute.) So I'd love to just get, say, a Fujitsu TabletPC and install MacOS as the base system. Except that it probably would have as much trouble as Windows has in regards to stability.

The wonderful thing about the MacOS is that it IS locked to Apple's hardware, which generally leads to mondo better stability, since (yes, I know this is review) Apple's software engineers know exactly what hardware it will be run on, and can make sure that it runs well, rather than trying to support billions and billions (thanks Sagen) of configurations.

So I'd love to be able to get non-Apple hardware if what Apple makes doesn't suit my needs, but doing so would really open pandora's box.

Hmm... what if Apple were to recognize specific PC types (such as tablets) that it had no interest in producing, and partner up with an existing pc manufacturer to licence the MacOS and tightly control those models so as to provide the same level of stability....

Hee hee! It'll never happen! (probably)
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post #58 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

OK guys - let's play a game:

Honest guess as to Vista consumer release date:

A) Never (world ends, or MS goes bankrupt first)
B) Jan-Mar 2007
C) Mar-May 2007
D) June-Aug 2007

Yeah, my money's on C too, though I think March or April. Either way, it will soon after become painfully clear that it was still much to soon to release. The real issue is that MS has made the whole OS a lot more difficult to control, at least for those of us who like drop down menus. I've tried to use both WMP 11 and IE7, but they both drove me crazy with how hard it was to do anything. I also can't stand how HUGE the whole interface is. You can't get anything done with the space that's left over after this new GUI moves in.
post #59 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

what if Apple were to recognize specific PC types (such as tablets) that it had no interest in producing, and partner up with an existing pc manufacturer to licence the MacOS and tightly control those models so as to provide the same level of stability....

Hee hee! It'll never happen! (probably)

The problem with that concept is: for obvious reasons, Apple would only do it if it could expand the Mac platform's market share. Could a convertible? Or a tablet PC? And if they could, why wouldn't Apple produce them themselves? Since Apple doesn't produce them, they probably believe that the needn't R&D wouldn't be justifiable based on projected sales, and that wouldn't be different for a third party either. (Even if you were to take a third party that already has experience with Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, that's still a different story than using Mac OS X as a tablet computer.)
post #60 of 136
I think that as we see Apple grow, it'll move into more and more markets with extra hardware lines.

Personally, I think we'll see a new line some time in the next year. I think Apple has three more lines it should make:

1) mid-range desktop (iMac w/o screen)
2) tablet
3) smaller pro laptop - I miss the 12" Powerbook. I'd like to see a 10-12 inch model MBP, and I think we will.
post #61 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

OK guys - let's play a game:

Honest guess as to Vista consumer release date:

A) Never (world ends, or MS goes bankrupt first)
B) Jan-Mar 2007
C) Mar-May 2007
D) June-Aug 2007

OK guys - let's play a game:

Honest guess as to Copland consumer release date:

A) Never (world ends, or Apple goes bankrupt first)
B) Jan-Mar 1996
C) Mar-May 1996
D) June-Aug 1997
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post #62 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

The problem with that concept is: for obvious reasons, Apple would only do it if it could expand the Mac platform's market share. Could a convertible? Or a tablet PC? And if they could, why wouldn't Apple produce them themselves? Since Apple doesn't produce them, they probably believe that the needn't R&D wouldn't be justifiable based on projected sales, and that wouldn't be different for a third party either. (Even if you were to take a third party that already has experience with Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, that's still a different story than using Mac OS X as a tablet computer.)

In all seriousness, I wonder how much additional effort and what it would require in general to add a wacom digitizer to a MBP. We know that Ink is already in the os, so the basic input method is there. I wonder what else would have to be done (aside from coercing MS to port OneNote).
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post #63 of 136
Only Copland was replaced with something else. Vista won't be.
post #64 of 136
I agree with Chucker (who posted as I was typing). Apple can't make niche computers, because OS X is itself a niche. but I think ultra-portables and tablets could catch on, especially as we see a growth in laptop sales - a rising tide raises all ships or whatever.
post #65 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

In all seriousness, I wonder how much additional effort and what it would require in general to add a wacom digitizer to a MBP. We know that Ink is already in the os, so the basic input method is there. I wonder what else would have to be done (aside from coercing MS to port OneNote).

Apple would want the solution to be classier than just have pen input and handwriting recognition. There's go to be a killer feature.

(What's so great about OneNote?)
post #66 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

I agree with Chucker (who posted as I was typing). Apple can't make niche computers, because OS X is itself a niche. but I think ultra-portables and tablets could catch on, especially as we see a growth in laptop sales - a rising tide raises all ships or whatever.

Since a strong part of Apple's user base is graphics professionals, it makes me wonder why adding a digitizer isn't the no-brainer it appears to be. wonder how much they add to production cost...
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post #67 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

Apple would want the solution to be classier than just have pen input and handwriting recognition. There's go to be a killer feature.

(What's so great about OneNote?)

go comondeer a tabletpc for a month and sit in on a chemistry class. Note consolodation is the primary advantage I see. I HATE having 8 binders on my bookshelf, one for each subject. And every time I flip a page of lined paper in thtat binder, the holes rip, creating a HUGE mess. (I guess I just get excited in class though. ) If you really want to know why OneNote is good, go check out MS's page on it. It really does have some nice features, not just aplicable to note taking, but junk that I personally have really wanted in my computer for a long time. Or, if you don't care, just ignore it. Up to you.

*edit* this post is a prime example of why I am NOT an English major.
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post #68 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

Only Copland was replaced with something else. Vista won't be.

Additionally, while Apple was working on Copeland and OS X, it continued to release updates in the form of OSes 8 and 9. MS, meanwhile, is letting Vista rot. Seeing how those were going against Win98 and WinME, Apple wasn't in as dire of straits (it was still competitive). Currently, XP is up against Tiger and strong Linux distros, which are only getting better. XP is a badly outdated OS, OSes 8 and 9 weren't. For example, XP Home can't do more than 2 cores. At all. And XP doesn't support Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.
post #69 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWhaler

I think Apple should be very, very careful here.

Hubris is one of the spikes that fatally impale great companies.

Vista is already delayed, and everyone knows it is going to be delayed again. There is nothing stopping Microsoft from delaying it by another 6 months and adding in whatever is missing from Visa that Apple announces for Leopard.

How would they be able to add something in 6 months if all they have done for the past three years is cut stuff?

This will be very interesting, and their stock is going to jump tomorrow, probably about 6%.

I'm sure Leopard will be good because they had the same banners last year. Maybe they will try to have this ready ahead of schedule and release it the same wekk that Vista comes out, if Vista somehow gets lucky and comes out before April. The only reason that Apple won't take Microsoft over in terms of market share or market cap is because the world will be in WW3 and everything will change.

But I'm excited for monday and can't wait to watch to see what is announced.
post #70 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

If you really want to know why OneNote is good, go check out MS's page on it. It really does have some nice features, not just aplicable to note taking, but junk that I personally have really wanted in my computer for a long time. Or, if you don't care, just ignore it. Up to you.

I'm really just curious how it stacks up against StickyBrain, VoodooPad, OmniOutliner and the likes.
post #71 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

I'm really just curious how it stacks up against StickyBrain, VoodooPad, OmniOutliner and the likes.

sadly, I'm not familiar with those so I am unable to give a meaningful comparison. I'd love to know too though. Anyone got the dope on this one?
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post #72 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottie924

The only reason that Apple won't take Microsoft over in terms of market share or market cap is because the world will be in WW3 and everything will change.

...? WW3, what does that have to do with anything? confused here, but it's 1 AM, that happens.

The only reason Apple will never overtake MS is because they don't want to. They can make more money riding the draft position in 2nd, taking only niche markets they're interested in, while ignoring low-margin or low-volume markets they can't make money in. Windells will always have higher marketshare, but it's going to be more and more in the crappy places. I expect Apple to become a dominant player in the workstation market, especially if they go all Quad in the Mac Pros, and they could pick up steam in the server/enterprise market if they fix the kernel in Leopard Server. Also, they have a much higher market share in laptops than in desktops, which is only going to increase.

In short, the Windows marketshare dominance will only be in gaming machines (high margin, low volume), and entry desktops (low margin, high volume). Apple will rule the high-end, and also probably mid-range laptops. And by rule, I mean over 25% market share in those areas.
post #73 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henriok

I agree with Palegolas. I think it's rather petty to poke at Microsoft. Can't they see that they are hurting?! It's mean to kick someone when they are down.

It isn't pettty. At some point you just have to call BS on the people who speak BS. Sometimes you have to use ridicule to highlight stupidity. If MS didn't cheat and steal AND if 80% of the population just doesn't notice or care, you wouldn't need some "petty" techniques to speak the truth. But they do and so must the slings and arrows.
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post #74 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

I'm really just curious how it stacks up against StickyBrain, VoodooPad, OmniOutliner and the likes.

I really like NoteTaker. It is the best attempt at replacing notebooks on a pc and has some powerful, though sometimes slow, tools. I also like the responsiveness of the developers. OmniOutliner is great of course, but like DevonThink uses a computer analogy to taking notes, not a notebook analogy which somehow feels better. StickyBrain is now bundled into SoHo and I've tried it because it is slightly quicker and leaner, but nothing satisfies like NoteTaker.
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post #75 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWhaler

Vista is already delayed, and everyone knows it is going to be delayed again. There is nothing stopping Microsoft from delaying it by another 6 months and adding in whatever is missing from Visa that Apple announces for Leopard.

Microsoft can easily take the hit--which they need to do anyway from everything I have read--and close the gap with Leopard.

That is unfortunately the problem with monopolies. You can be big and get away with alot of mistakes and take the hit. There is barely a "free market" if MS can make as many mistakes as it does, gets convicted of felonies and basically feels no threat from a captive installed base of customers and vendors.
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post #76 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

Frightening fact: On my tower, XP started as a 500mb installation, plus about 1gb for the page file. Now, after installing SP2, it's rocking its way at about 5 GB plus about 4 GB of page file. And that's JUST the os, not including ANY 3rd party aplications.

I'm lucky to be able to deal with Macs only at both work and home, so I'm going to ask,

What the fuck is a "page file" and why does it grow from 1 GB to 4 GB with everyday usage? I don't remember even the system registry being so much of a monster.
post #77 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

Ok, but MS's lead is only because of it's lead. MS is supported only by inertia if Vista falls through. If Office winds up not being well-liked (the interface change is semi-divisive), then OO.o could get a bit of a boost, and if Vista bombs, people will look at Macs.

Apple's winning here isn't 50% of the market, it's more like 15. All Apple and Linux need to do is loosen MS's grip and get it to about 75% market share. Then Windows developers are gonna look at Mac and Linux and see that they can add a lot to their profits by coding for them. If a competitor starts a Mac port, you darn well better too.

Vista can't fail. People have to understand that. Once MS makes the release, it will be on every new computer sold to the retail market. That's around 100 million computers a year, and rising, about half of the PC market. Business will start taking it up as well, though at a sedate pace. Still, after a few years, at most, 75% of the PC market will be on Vista.
post #78 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

<in a feeble voice> "Yall whipper snappers don't know how good you gots it! Why, I remember when I was your age, you could fit a WHOLE OPERATING SYSTEM on a lil ole 800k floppy! What's a floppy? <sigh> Kids these days!"

I remember when you could do a whole OS in 1.5KB.
post #79 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

Since a strong part of Apple's user base is graphics professionals, it makes me wonder why adding a digitizer isn't the no-brainer it appears to be. wonder how much they add to production cost...

Check out Wacom's prices, and you'll see. It's pretty expensive, and would add thickness to the lid as well.

I think it would be too clumsy. You would have to hold the lid with one hand while you drew with the other. That's what tablets (computer tablets, that is) are for, if you can abide them, and the public can't.
post #80 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGregor

It isn't pettty. At some point you just have to call BS on the people who speak BS. Sometimes you have to use ridicule to highlight stupidity. If MS didn't cheat and steal AND if 80% of the population just doesn't notice or care, you wouldn't need some "petty" techniques to speak the truth. But they do and so must the slings and arrows.

Except that as a practical matter, it is not good to mention your competitor in advertising. No matter what, the mention of a name is always remembered. When Apple mentions Vista, people will remember "Vista", long after they forget the context in which it was mentioned.
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