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Briefly: Apple on Vista, Leopard, retail windows - Page 3

post #81 of 136
8/6/06 at 11:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

To be fair here, I do somehow have just under 6 GBs of Virtual Memory ATM. I have 768 MB of RAM, and I'm running AOL, Adium, Firefox, iTunes, and Mail. That's something Apple could work on fixing in Leopard. I don't really care, since I have about 18 GB of HDD space free, but it's not like Vista is the only HDD hog.

Do you mean to imply that OS X has bad memory management? It doesn't.

As VM size, what's the problem? You have a tiny HD - my 1999 Powermac Sawtooth came with a 20 GB drive. On a modern Mac, with a 60-100 GB HD, VM space is negligible.

Of course, the beautiful thing about OS X's VM system is that you can leave virtually every app on your system open at all times, without a significant performance hit, and each one is a dock-click away. Not a bad feature for having a large VM footprint.

The key numbers, as I understand it, are pageins/pageouts. If you're system has to keep hitting the HD to retrieve data, then you need more RAM. But that's not a VM problem, that's the nature of OS X's memory management, and it's need for lots of RAM. This isn't a problem as long as your Mac has ~1 GB of RAM. This is where Apple needs to improve - no Mac should leave the factory with less than 1 GB of RAM.
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post #82 of 136
8/6/06 at 11:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkyard Dawg

Do you mean to imply that OS X has bad memory management? It doesn't.

As VM size, what's the problem? You have a tiny HD - my 1999 Powermac Sawtooth came with a 20 GB drive. On a modern Mac, with a 60-100 GB HD, VM space is negligible.

Of course, the beautiful thing about OS X's VM system is that you can leave virtually every app on your system open at all times, without a significant performance hit, and each one is a dock-click away. Not a bad feature for having a large VM footprint.

The key numbers, as I understand it, are pageins/pageouts. If you're system has to keep hitting the HD to retrieve data, then you need more RAM. But that's not a VM problem, that's the nature of OS X's memory management, and it's need for lots of RAM. This isn't a problem as long as your Mac has ~1 GB of RAM. This is where Apple needs to improve - no Mac should leave the factory with less than 1 GB of RAM.

I can agree with that.

But, look on the bright side of things. It's been shown on some websights, that, particularly when playing games, Vista needs 2 GB of RAM.

We may be on the light side after all.

And memory requirements are never going to go down, just up.
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post #83 of 136
8/7/06 at 12:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by crees!

Guys, come on. It's not like Apple hasn't been so blatant before. Last year they had similar banners saying "Redmond, Start Your Photocopiers" and others taunting Longhorn.

As we all know now, Apple was right in this regard.
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post #84 of 136
8/7/06 at 12:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

<in a feeble voice> "Yall whipper snappers don't know how good you gots it! Why, I remember when I was your age, you could fit a WHOLE OPERATING SYSTEM on a lil ole 800k floppy! What's a floppy? <sigh> Kids these days!"

Floppy disks? You were lucky! In my time you'd have to hand-punch the whole OS onto cards every time you started the machine. But you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.
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post #85 of 136
8/7/06 at 12:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by csimmons

As we all know now, Apple was right in this regard.

This is too explicit though. Being somewhat nebulous is fine, but when mentioning a particular product, it seems petty and childish.

If Apple lists features for each, and makes comparisons, that would be all right. That's commonly done.

But, even there, one has to be careful. All major features from both products must be mentioned, including those your own product lacks. Otherwise,your comparison will be picked apart.

It's interesting to note that in Europe, you are not allowed to mention a competitors product in your ads.
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post #86 of 136
8/7/06 at 12:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobberwacky

Floppy disks? You were lucky! In my time you'd have to hand-punch the whole OS onto cards every time you started the machine. But you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

HA! I've got that one beat as well. I still have, in my attic, the rack cards that IBM used to insert the wires to change the programming with.
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post #87 of 136
8/7/06 at 1:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

Tiger was a developer release. There were something more than a dozen major (or at least non-trivial) new APIs added to Tiger. I see Leopard consolidating that. I mean, I think Dashboard and Exposé were tossed on at the last minute to add some "end user" stuff to the release. I mean, with all the APIs and working on the Intel switch, there wasn't much up-front stuff for Tiger.

In so far as stuff that Apple is going to be in a great position to improve further from Tiger:

Dashboard
Spotlight (this has enormous potential)
Core Image
Q2D Extreme
Boot Camp
X11

This is the key point for me, the banners are rallying the troops to make great use of the technologies in OSX. Dashboard made use of the ripple effect but that's almost all we've seen of that (have a look at Omni dazzle though)

Ther's also Core data and Core foundation.

The move to Intel has concentrated everyone on Universal Binaries, this years WWDC will refocus on the new great tools for developers in OSX and crucially Apple will show how it's done by making use of these in the OS.

M$ hasn't got a chance of catching up with stuff that was released 2 years ago let alone what will be new in afew hours.......
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post #88 of 136
8/7/06 at 1:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobberwacky

Floppy disks? You were lucky! In my time you'd have to hand-punch the whole OS onto cards every time you started the machine. But you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

Punch cards? Luxury! We had to install t'valves by hand for threpence ha'penny a week. If we didn't get it right our fathers used to beat us with a rolled up printout, and we'd be thankful for it.
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post #89 of 136
8/7/06 at 1:45am
The new slogans fill me with glee. I wish I was there..
Resident Furry, Animation student, and Steve Jobs fan.
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Resident Furry, Animation student, and Steve Jobs fan.
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post #90 of 136
8/7/06 at 1:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston smith

Dashboard made use of the ripple effect but that's almost all we've seen of that ... have a look at Omni dazzle though

Actually, Dazzle's ripple effect is far inferior to Dashboards'.

Side the fact it looks worse, the effect is applied to a 256x256 stationary snippet of your screen (IE: The program takes a small screenshot around your mouse. Displays it. Then applied the horrid ripple effect to that.), where as the Dashboard ripple is applied in real time (and much higher quality) to anything going on beneath.

I only mention this to vent my disappointment. =(

- Xidius
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post #91 of 136
8/7/06 at 2:16am
One more thing:

OS X Leopard will be sold shrink wrapped for any Vista-compatible PC.

Dell to announce OEM deal with Apple that will see them shipping OS X pre-installed.

...and so it begins.
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post #92 of 136
8/7/06 at 3:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gee4orce

One more thing:

OS X Leopard will be sold shrink wrapped for any Vista-compatible PC.

Dell to announce OEM deal with Apple that will see them shipping OS X pre-installed.

...and so it begins.

That would be as big, if not bigger, a bombshell as the Intel switch. Can't count anything out I guess but it would seem unlikely with Apple primarily wanting to sell more hardware.
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post #93 of 136
8/7/06 at 4:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobberwacky

Floppy disks? You were lucky! In my time you'd have to hand-punch the whole OS onto cards every time you started the machine. But you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

LMAO I think I found some punch cards in my basement when I was 10 or 11. From back when my dad was at MIT I think.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #94 of 136
8/7/06 at 4:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

HA! I've got that one beat as well. I still have, in my attic, the rack cards that IBM used to insert the wires to change the programming with.

Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #95 of 136
8/7/06 at 5:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign

Punch cards? Luxury! We had to install t'valves by hand for threpence ha'penny a week. If we didn't get it right our fathers used to beat us with a rolled up printout, and we'd be thankful for it.

Abacus.






blah blah blah, filler filler filler (can't post fewer than 10 characters) blah blah blah
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #96 of 136
8/7/06 at 5:10am
My first computer experience was on a machine that had no OS. You had to dial a number and put the phone receiver on a modem that dialed into a mainfraime thatdid all the work. Once you dialed in you waited a few seconds until the curser on the screen blinked I yhink three times and question mark apperaed.
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post #97 of 136
8/7/06 at 5:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

I'm running AOL.

Get Out! Its a trap!
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #98 of 136
8/7/06 at 6:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

This is too explicit though. Being somewhat nebulous is fine, but when mentioning a particular product, it seems petty and childish.

If Apple lists features for each, and makes comparisons, that would be all right. That's commonly done.

But, even there, one has to be careful. All major features from both products must be mentioned, including those your own product lacks. Otherwise,your comparison will be picked apart.

It's interesting to note that in Europe, you are not allowed to mention a competitors product in your ads.

Hmmm the past 12 months have seen the start button be replaced with the windows logo in a sphere-like orb thing that when clicked now reveals system wide meta search...where have I seen that before (glances up at top right corner of Tiger desktop) Oh Yea...

They have this really cool thing that shows you all of the open windows at once with the touch of a button, it is so innovative, but vaguly familier...(taps F9) Oh Yea...that is where I saw that...

IE 7 will have this great new thing called "tabbed browsing" a true innovation that for some reason, leaves me with a sence of dejavo...I think this exists in something called "opera" "mozilla/firefox" "netscape" and this little Apple app called Safari...

The Office toolbar will have tabbed toolsets, kinda like Photoshops "layers/channels" pallette or Final Cuts Canvas...

If you can name me one truly innovartive and original idea in Vista, I wil eat my hat.
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #99 of 136
8/7/06 at 6:15am
There's obviously only two Yorkshiremen in this thread
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post #100 of 136
8/7/06 at 6:23am
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

It's interesting to note that in Europe, you are not allowed to mention a competitors product in your ads.

Psst. This isn't an ad.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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post #101 of 136
8/7/06 at 6:24am
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that Apple says "Hasta la vista, Vista" yet they're doing everything they can to let Vista run alongside OS X?
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post #102 of 136
8/7/06 at 6:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimUSCA

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that Apple says "Hasta la vista, Vista" yet they're doing everything they can to let Vista run alongside OS X?

Vista is the new Classic!
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post #103 of 136
8/7/06 at 7:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimUSCA

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that Apple says "Hasta la vista, Vista" yet they're doing everything they can to let Vista run alongside OS X?

they are saying "we will play nice with the desperately lacking and patheticly bloated platform because they have ~90% marketshare...for now..."
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #104 of 136
8/7/06 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by csimmons

As we all know now, Apple was right in this regard.

I wish they had been. If Vista (and XP et al) were copies of Mac OS X, they wouldn't suck. As it is, generally they're going in completely the opposite direction.
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post #105 of 136
8/7/06 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

It's interesting to note that in Europe, you are not allowed to mention a competitors product in your ads.

So let me get this straight.... If Cheerios wanted to run a full page ad in the Times of London that said "F&CK CORN-FLAKES!" they be prevented from running it?!?! Wow, what a sad world THAT must be.
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post #106 of 136
8/7/06 at 7:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

yes Joe, but there are two catches:

1) In order to afford to sell software-only, OS X would have to cost $200 or more.
2) Apple would have a hard time supporting every motherboard/graphics card/printer/camera under the sun. This is what causes a lot of windows headaches - driver issues and whatnot.

Oh, and a Mac Pro will cream a 4x4 in processing power, and Quad-SLI hasn't proven all that useful just yet. If there is a Quad 2.0 Mac Pro with SLI, it'll kill any 4x4. I mean, Quad SLI is gonna cost more than SLI'd 7900GTs and is gonna be like 10% better (because of paralellization issues and bus issues. And 2.0 GHz Woodcrest will beat any FX that isn't heavily overclocked. Yes, FB-DIMMs are a pain in the butt, I'll admit. Also, a 1333 GHz FSB is not gonna be a huge bottleneck in a dual-dual situation. A dual-quad situation maybe, but generally it's only in 8+ processor environments that HT proves a huge plus over a fast FSB (which is not to say it doesn't beat an 800 MHz FSB, but 1333 is a different story)

You do not need two video cards in a 4x4 system. If the Mac pro is using Woodcrest then it may be ok for now with the FSB but when they go to quad-core the interlink form dual-core to dual-core will put more load on the fsb. Also you will likely be able to get a 4x4 system for less then a duel Woodcrest system. And if apple base system is only a singe duel core and you can get a 4x4 with 2 cpus for the same price that will not be good for apple.

as for motherboards / graphics they can use the common ati / intel / nvidia drivers.

They should not use EFI to keep video cards prices high in the new Macs with slots.

There own macs will have to deal printering and cameras any ways and the ones with slots will have to deal with cards to.
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post #107 of 136
8/7/06 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gee4orce

One more thing:

OS X Leopard will be sold shrink wrapped for any Vista-compatible PC.

Dell to announce OEM deal with Apple that will see them shipping OS X pre-installed.

...and so it begins.

Yeah, that's exactly what's going to happen.
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post #108 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign

I'm waiting for OS XI.

If Apple don't use the Spinal Tap 'Our amps go up to 11' skit, they'll have missed out on a major bit of humour. Perhaps they'll replace brushed metal with black and black controls.

I agree. That was the first thing that came to mind when I thought of OS XI
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post #109 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:26am
FYI, you are allowed to compare your product with competitors (at least here in the UK you are), but what is a no-no is negative marketing.

I think we have to look no further than USA politcal TV ads to see that negative advertising is depressing and unnecessary in the extreme - though we do see some of that here now as well.

David
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post #110 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

Apple's winning here isn't 50% of the market, it's more like 15. All Apple and Linux need to do is loosen MS's grip and get it to about 75% market share. Then Windows developers are gonna look at Mac and Linux and see that they can add a lot to their profits by coding for them. If a competitor starts a Mac port, you darn well better too.

I agree. Anything more than about 15% is unrealistic.

I think the big problem people have is they keep comparing Apple's share to the entire PC market. That's as stupid as saying Dell only have a 17% market share compred to 83% PC. The fact that Apple has a 5% or so share show that they are doing pretty well.

The low share can only be attributed to OS X: i.e 5% OS X vs 90% Windows. The only way that can be changed is for Apple to sell OS X on other hardware.

It's a risky venture though. People who already own PCs in business could just buy a few OS X licenses to run some needed Apple software and never buy Mac hardware.

But then, would Apple make enough on software sales to make up for the losses? I think they might but I think in business terms, software has a more limited growth than hardware. After Leopard, what kind of things are people really going to need in an operating system? Eventually, we get down to gimmicks.

On the other hand, people are going to need hardware upgrades for decades to come.
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post #111 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsmi

My first computer experience was on a machine that had no OS. You had to dial a number and put the phone receiver on a modem that dialed into a mainfraime thatdid all the work. Once you dialed in you waited a few seconds until the curser on the screen blinked I yhink three times and question mark apperaed.

That is an epsiode of Lost isn't it?
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post #112 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:31am
I don't think Apple will ever sell OS X without the hardware. It doesn't make sense. Market share be damned. Remember the Mac Clones of the mid 90's pre Steve Jobs 2.0? I don't see them returning to that route. And while Apple may only hold 5% of the total computer market, I'm willing to bet it's the top end of that market -- the ones willing to pay a bit more for higher quality product, loyal lifetime customers, etc. They'll increase their total market share in due time so long as they keep selling quality products -- look at the notebook sales last quarter.
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post #113 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:42am
Does anyone know if Apple will be streaming Jobs Keynote online like they have in the past? I can't find a link on their site.
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post #114 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by budshonda

Does anyone know if Apple will be streaming Jobs Keynote online like they have in the past? I can't find a link on their site.

Hmmm that's a great question.... someone should try and find out the answer... Perhaps a thread search would help.
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post #115 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!

Nope. They are black, made out of paper phenelic, with numbers printed in white next to the holes, with a metal handle in front. I have a few, with the spring metal ended wires.
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post #116 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobberwacky

Floppy disks? You were lucky! In my time you'd have to hand-punch the whole OS onto cards every time you started the machine. But you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.


I DO....did the hole punch thing transporting my box of many many cards to the adjacent computer run room, and some assistant slams the door on me and all my cards out of sequence now, are spilled all over the lab. my professor started howling and had the assistant pick them all up and put them in sequence. wow saved me alot of time. hey that computer room was the size of a small house, the punch room was as big. we have come a long way, when the computer guys at my university told of this slick little gizmo called a mac (they had the first renditions) i jumped sight unseen for the little bugger as an edu discount and developer assistant(big lie, but i got it) and got my first mac plus.
i think you can put that computer power we had in that room on a watch now, probably use it for promo in a box of cereal.
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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post #117 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:54am
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
We had a TRS-80 in grade school.

It was faster to type in BASIC programs from scratch than to load them from the cassette tape interface.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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post #118 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

Hmmm the past 12 months have seen the start button be replaced with the windows logo in a sphere-like orb thing that when clicked now reveals system wide meta search...where have I seen that before (glances up at top right corner of Tiger desktop) Oh Yea...

They have this really cool thing that shows you all of the open windows at once with the touch of a button, it is so innovative, but vaguly familier...(taps F9) Oh Yea...that is where I saw that...

IE 7 will have this great new thing called "tabbed browsing" a true innovation that for some reason, leaves me with a sence of dejavo...I think this exists in something called "opera" "mozilla/firefox" "netscape" and this little Apple app called Safari...

The Office toolbar will have tabbed toolsets, kinda like Photoshops "layers/channels" pallette or Final Cuts Canvas...

If you can name me one truly innovartive and original idea in Vista, I wil eat my hat.

You know that all OS's steal from each other (hmm, I wrote that as though they're conscious).

Anyway, that isn't the point. That's one of the rules of advertising, though some companies occasionally don't follow it. It's never been seen to work, and carries risks. It's simply the public perception that studies have shown. Companies that mention their rival's product(s) disparagingly are perceived to be desperate.

Apple doesn't have to do it. The OS should stand on its own.
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post #119 of 136
8/7/06 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha

Psst. This isn't an ad.

Uh, well, sort of, isn't it?

When a banner that size is placed with the intention of the press seeing it, and photographing, and perhaps videoing it as well, with the web sites having threads about it, it's a publicity stunt, which is just about the same thing.

And, at this point, you don't know if Apple won't use it in more conventional advertising as well.
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post #120 of 136
8/7/06 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGee

So let me get this straight.... If Cheerios wanted to run a full page ad in the Times of London that said "F&CK CORN-FLAKES!" they be prevented from running it?!?! Wow, what a sad world THAT must be.

No. Cornflakes are not competitors, are they? Other companies products are competitors when their products are named.

And Cheerios is a product, not a company.
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