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post #121 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

Well, if you are not going to register your other computers for support, why buy the Family Pack in the first place?

Because it buys you 5 licences. I've never registered a copy of OSX. Skipped that stage at installation every time. Registration isn't mandatory, unlike Windows Activation. Bertrand even made a joke about Windows Activation during the keynote. If it's ok by Apple, then it's ok by me.
post #122 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

I attempted to price the value of Leopards features earlier and I need to make a correction -- the value of this is now $0 because I can do it already -- along with a cool cube interface too on Linux... all I do is type "apt-get install XGL" and then do about 5 minutes of (well documented) configing and presto...instant 3d multidesktop...complete with neat lil' cube effect!

And it is OPEN SOURCE!

info at: http://en.opensuse.org/Xgl

"but grandma on the 800Mhz iMac with 256MB ram may have a hard time with that..."

Daniel Tull
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Daniel Tull
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post #123 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

I attempted to price the value of Leopards features earlier and I need to make a correction -- the value of this is now $0 because I can do it already -- along with a cool cube interface too on Linux... all I do is type "apt-get install XGL" and then do about 5 minutes of (well documented) configing and presto...instant 3d multidesktop...complete with neat lil' cube effect!

Good look getting that to run with Aqua applications.

Quote:
And it is OPEN SOURCE!

Who gives a shit, and why? Does that make it easier to use? Does that add features? Are you going to look at the source code or change it around? Are you going to accept the restrictive license?
post #124 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

A somewhat different take on Leopard. Not a fanboi's view.

http://www.tomshardware.com/


For even more wrongness, look no further than the anti-fanboi...

http://www.internet-nexus.com/

Really, What a tool. Someone who dislikes Apple's surface gloss but never looks deeper than it.
post #125 of 177


Me likes 64-bit appz and Xcode 3.0!

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #126 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielctull

My point wasn't so much that Leopard will release earlier than spring 2007, but that there will be new and better features coming to Leopard. Although, I can't help but imagine it coming out at MWSF 07 to blow away Vista. Nay-sayers like in that Tom's Hardware article (which got a fair amount of information wrong - mostly, it presumed that this was a complete feature list) will be reporting of this crazy "Mac OS X" which has come along, not only earlier than projected, but with double the amount of released features. Compare this to the "still lingering Vista" release with hardly any of the ground breaking features. Hmm hmm...

To be fair, I'm not sure how many new/updated features are going to be in Vista, there may be fewer in the Leopard release, but it's all mind games at the end of the day right? Leopard will look like it's getting more because the feature list got bigger, whereas Vista's got smaller.

PS. Will there be a MW Paris keynote does anyone know? I think they will use that to display more user oriented updates. If you think about the ones we have seen at WWDC, there were a lot of developer-oriented apps (Dashcode, Xcode 3, Core Animation, Spaces) or apps developers are expected to hook into (Time Machine), but not too many end user apps. They may have chosen to logically split these up so that they will be focusing on the right user groups. Not that developers aren't users, but developers will surely know of features released at MW Paris, if they see them there or on the web.

First of all, one must stop thinking about "blowing away Vista". I assure you that Apple's strategy is more sophisticated than that. I doubted that it would come out during MWSF before, and I still do. There isn't enough time for developers to access the new code, and the requirements for what they will have to do. If there are features that Apple hasn't finished yet, which is very likely, even more time will be needed. The developers on the board have generally agreed with that.

This isn't a game. Jobs likes to tweek MS's nose during these conferences, but back home, things are more serious. While I'm sure that Apple is keeping an eye on Vista's release date, they aren't going to go to their programming teams and tell them to rush because they want to beat MS. It doesn't work that way.
post #127 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H

I hope that was a joke. (I'm not sure if your smiley at the end was in response to the message you'd quoted, or an indication that you were being sarcastic.)

Obviously it was a joke. not sarcasm, which people seem to think everything not serious is, but just a wry joke in response.
post #128 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign

Because it buys you 5 licences. I've never registered a copy of OSX. Skipped that stage at installation every time. Registration isn't mandatory, unlike Windows Activation. Bertrand even made a joke about Windows Activation during the keynote. If it's ok by Apple, then it's ok by me.

Only if you register each machine, which is the point to the whole thing. If you don't, then no license. If you are your own support, as I am, then you have no need of it. Apple's unofficial position is that while they would prefer you to license each machine you own, they will accept the fact that you will buy one copy for more than one, for the home, not for business, which, of course, is different.

But when you call for support, you must give them the number. I suppose you can fake it by giving the one that was registered, but if the problem on the other machine is machine specific, then support won't be able to help.

The point is, again, that this is a FAMILY pack license, friends living around the city can't use it with you, unless, as I said, Apple changed their stance on that.
post #129 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

Only if you register each machine, which is the point to the whole thing. If you don't, then no license. If you are your own support, as I am, then you have no need of it. Apple's unofficial position is that while they would prefer you to license each machine you own, they will accept the fact that you will buy one copy for more than one, for the home, not for business, which, of course, is different.

I'm sure they'd rather have you buy a Family pack than install a single user licence on 5 Macs.

I'd imagine any Apple employee espousing anything other than the 'Thou shalt not install OSX on more than one machine created by us at a time' commandment would shortly be struck down with a bolt from Jobs.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=26275

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

But when you call for support, you must give them the number. I suppose you can fake it by giving the one that was registered, but if the problem on the other machine is machine specific, then support won't be able to help.

The point is, again, that this is a FAMILY pack license, friends living around the city can't use it with you, unless, as I said, Apple changed their stance on that.

Dunno. Never rang support, ever.

Technically, I'm possibly stretching the terms of the licence myself as the family licence is used to update machines I use for my business but then it's a family business ran from home.
post #130 of 177
i want to make something clear... go review the keynote movie if you like, but steve was VERY CAREFUL NOT to call Spaces "new" but "new to the Mac." so he isn't lying. it's called "marketing spin." see also: "political spin."
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Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
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Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #131 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign

I'm sure they'd rather have you buy a Family pack than install a single user licence on 5 Macs.

I'd imagine any Apple employee espousing anything other than the 'Thou shalt not install OSX on more than one machine created by us at a time' commandment would shortly be struck down with a bolt from Jobs.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=26275



Dunno. Never rang support, ever.

Technically, I'm possibly stretching the terms of the licence myself as the family licence is used to update machines I use for my business but then it's a family business ran from home.

I did say it was unofficial. But Apple used to say it clearly. Now they say it and shrug. The legalese must be there, but it isn't being enforced the way MS does it, because they do have that unofficial position that, after all, it will be installed on a Mac. The concession is that there will be no support.
post #132 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggshmoogly

I
...
As for "spaces"...how many more features can they possibly add to shuffle windows around? Command-H and command-tab are pretty much all you need anyway.
..."

Hahaha. I like your thinking.
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post #133 of 177
i wonder what happens if you're IN a set of Spaces, and then trigger Exposé? Anyone with a preview release installed at WWDC wanna try and report on what happens? ooh, or maybe trigger a option-shift-minimize on an app with lots of windows open, and while the genie effect is going switch to spaces AND activate exposé.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #134 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by rok

i wonder what happens if you're IN a set of Spaces, and then trigger Exposé? Anyone with a preview release installed at WWDC wanna try and report on what happens? ooh, or maybe trigger a option-shift-minimize on an app with lots of windows open, and while the genie effect is going switch to spaces AND activate exposé.

and dashboard: differant dashboards in each space? and what happens if you hit F12 in the 4-up view...

Also, can you up it to say 6 or 8 spaces?
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #135 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

and dashboard: differant dashboards in each space? and what happens if you hit F12 in the 4-up view...

Also, can you up it to say 6 or 8 spaces?

Given the logo, and the onscreen animation when switching spaces, I would say that, at least for now, four seems to be the limit. And I agree the possibilities are definitely exciting. As someone who's used multiple desktops on Linux, I'm definitely looking forward to Apple's implementation.
post #136 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

and dashboard: differant dashboards in each space? and what happens if you hit F12 in the 4-up view...

Dashboard is global -- I don't think each Space will have a different Dashboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

Also, can you up it to say 6 or 8 spaces?

You can apparently add as many Spaces as you want.
post #137 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005

Time Machine is way beyond System Restore. And that's discounting the user interface, and the assumption that it works. Go read about it some more.


Time Machine is what OpenVMS was 20 years ago (and still is). It's what Dirvish and Wayback in Linux are, and what Windows Server 2003 calls Volume Shadow Copy.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #138 of 177
But with a usable interface.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - all the power in the world does you squat if you can't get to it easily.

I used to use VMS daily, and the versioning was a pain in the ass to use for anything but the most simple actions. Most users never used it, and just wanted it to get out of their way.

I use a custom rsync script set now, and while it's functional it is not something the average user is going to whip up or even be able to adequately use in daily tasks.

TM looks like it makes it grandma-usable, and that's the only thing that really matters to 95+% of the users out there.
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post #139 of 177
I must say, after viewing the website version of the preview of leopard -- I was not really impressed that much at all. Certainly not excited about Leopard. After watching the Keynote though, I was impressed. Apple did not do a very good job with their preview.

With Tiger, I was also much more impressed with the keynote preview than the website preview.
post #140 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes

You can apparently add as many Spaces as you want.

Holy cow, I am gonna be lovin' Leopard. Yowza!

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GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #141 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keda


I was excited by the possibilities of Core Animation. If these 3D effects are being applied in real time, then it seems like a big step toward a 3D OS environment. Did any of you pick up on this during the 'iTunes' commercial demo? The app was showing album details in real-time...and in a composited 3D environment. Just imagine how else this could be applied. If data are streamed, then many possibilities are presented. Very cool.

Yes, but not for leopard. It requires a paradigm shift away from the desktop metaphor. There should be some cool apps though and some good exploration of 3D UI techniques.

Vinea
post #142 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Yes, but not for leopard. It requires a paradigm shift away from the desktop metaphor. There should be some cool apps though and some good exploration of 3D UI techniques.

Vinea

That is the big question in my mind... just how far will Apple try to push the envelope in desktop UI with Leopard?

But I agree with you that we will see some exploration of new techniques using CoreAnimation rather than a full-blown paradigm shift into 3d space (which would probably be much too confusing for your average user).
post #143 of 177
I have to say, if Apple aren't amongst the first to harness the potential UI-candy with core animation I will be pretty disappointed. As mentioned before, this preview seems a lot like Tiger + Leopard, as some "top secret" features are yet to come. It would seem only logical that one of those features is a UI overhaul that makes full use of Core Animation (as surely, one of the main reasons for its conception was for Apple to utilize it to make an even sexier OS).

Not that a UI overhaul is necessary for mac-owners (who have more important reasons for buying a new mac), rather, switchers as Apple are certainly known for purloining market share using flashy design. It would seem only logical that the UI for leopard should blow Vista completely away, making all its visual "enhancements" seem tacky (or more so) in comparison to the offerings on a mac.

...doesn't anyone else think the finder windows feel a little out of place within Time Machine...
post #144 of 177
A UI overhaul as a SUPRISE!!! feature would be easy to do seeing as it requires little beta testing and would have few bugs.
post #145 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Clean

Time Machine is what OpenVMS was 20 years ago (and still is). It's what Dirvish and Wayback in Linux are, and what Windows Server 2003 calls Volume Shadow Copy.

While Time Machine can recover different version of files that is not its sole purpose. Time Machine is more about taking transparent snapshots but having the ability to recover files from whatever snapshot is needed without restoring to a point. Windows VSC takes snapshots which allows for individual users to restore in Storage Server 2003 so that's closer. Again no one is stating that Apple is first here but the fact that Apple can go from 0-halfway polished beta in no time flat is impressive. Microsoft has had 6 years to work on VSC.

In fact hold on. I don't believe Windows 2003 Storage Server can restore individual files. I believe you have to use Data Protection Manager for that. Suffice it to say for $129 Time Machine will be worth the price of admission alone if the hard drive requirements are not out of this world.

A 6 Terabyte server running WSS and DPM consumes half the storage for snapshots and RAID set. We'll see.
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post #146 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by hahjr

I have to say, if Apple aren't amongst the first to harness the potential UI-candy with core animation I will be pretty disappointed. As mentioned before, this preview seems a lot like Tiger + Leopard, as some "top secret" features are yet to come. It would seem only logical that one of those features is a UI overhaul that makes full use of Core Animation (as surely, one of the main reasons for its conception was for Apple to utilize it to make an even sexier OS).

Not that a UI overhaul is necessary for mac-owners (who have more important reasons for buying a new mac), rather, switchers as Apple are certainly known for purloining market share using flashy design. It would seem only logical that the UI for leopard should blow Vista completely away, making all its visual "enhancements" seem tacky (or more so) in comparison to the offerings on a mac.

...doesn't anyone else think the finder windows feel a little out of place within Time Machine...

Let's not forget that the first versions of Vista beta used the old XP GUI. It's very possible that Apple does have some changes in mind, but is not showing them as yet.

Just like the "top secret" features, the changes to the GUI are likely too buggy to have been shown. An indicator of that could have been the rare crash that occured during the demo. Hopefully they will be good enough to show during MWSF.
post #147 of 177
Here's a good article about Apple's releases during the conf. from Computerworld, one of my favorite publications.

This article I think most will appreciate. It starts with the machines, and then goes to a good breakdown of the software.

His insights are very interesting. The article is 5 pages.

I'm thinking of posting it to the hardware article forum as well.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/...icleId=9002267
post #148 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by icfireball

A UI overhaul as a SUPRISE!!! feature would be easy to do seeing as it requires little beta testing and would have few bugs.

That's not actually true... GUI bugs are the hardest to find. Everything else can be unit tested.
post #149 of 177
Here's a few things I posted on another forum, I thought it might be worth repeating them here...

Firstly, during the Keynote when the guy used Time Machine to retrieve the presentation file, he called up a preview of that file which opened up (pretty quickly - much quicker than loading it into Keynote proper) in a simple black-framed preview window. That's new - Preview doesn't open Keynote files (at least in Tiger) so it's not using that, so I'm wondering if there's a new file previewing architecture we don't know about yet? That ties in nicely with the fact that we saw nothing about the Finder...

Secondly, there was a Spotlight icon in the dock. That might just be a "home" for the Spotlight Results windows, but it might be something a little more interesting? A little worryingly, there's quite a lot of icons down by the Finder icon now - Dashboard, Time Machine, Spaces, Spotlight. That's quite a bit of dock real estate. Ho hum.

Something not in the Keynote, but a thing I'd like to see as an extension of the Spotlight theme is Smart Labels. If you can associate a label colour to a bunch of metadata, then the Finder can auto-label any matching file. Even better would be if this was implemented as an open API, so any application could query if a piece of data should be labelled.

For instance, you could set up a smart label for a particular client. Automatically, any contacts in your address book who work for the client company get labelled, as well as any emails from them in Mail, and any files you're prepping for the client in the Finder.

That'd be good.

Enough rambling from me...

Neil
a.k.a. Arnel
post #150 of 177
I would assume that Leopard's new look will be based on the X logo that they've been using. The reflective black glass is an incidator of what Leopard will look like.

Your guys' thoughts?
post #151 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckshot

I would assume that Leopard's new look will be based on the X logo that they've been using. The reflective black glass is an incidator of what Leopard will look like.

Your guys' thoughts?

If that were the case we'd have faux fur all over the interface already.

No, I can't see them using black. Whereas teenage Marilyn Manson fans might like it, and it has it's places, it would seriously mess up existing 3rd party apps. They've been using it for floating media palettes and HUDs but that's about it.

Black as a predominate colour causes your iris to close which requires more muscle movement in your eye. It gives you eye strain. White opens up the iris letting more light in and causes less damage.
post #152 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign

If that were the case we'd have faux fur all over the interface already.

No, I can't see them using black. Whereas teenage Marilyn Manson fans might like it, and it has it's places, it would seriously mess up existing 3rd party apps. They've been using it for floating media palettes and HUDs but that's about it.

Black as a predominate colour causes your iris to close which requires more muscle movement in your eye. It gives you eye strain. White opens up the iris letting more light in and causes less damage.

I see. But in the past logos like Cheetah--the aqua blue, and Tiger and Panther--the brushed metal--it followed that some visual changes were made and it may be that it is loosely based on the X logo. Obviously faux fur isn't in the works since the past upgrades have made some use of fur in the sneek peek logo. But I still think that the logo's X for leopard is gonna be a clue into how it will look. If not black glass that something similar to it.
post #153 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

I attempted to price the value of Leopards features earlier and I need to make a correction -- the value of this is now $0 because I can do it already -- along with a cool cube interface too on Linux... all I do is type "apt-get install XGL" and then do about 5 minutes of (well documented) configing and presto...instant 3d multidesktop...complete with neat lil'* cube effect!*

And it is OPEN SOURCE!

info at: http://en.opensuse.org/Xgl

Apple is here to take all that "all I do is type "apt-get install XGL" and then do about 5 minutes of (well documented) configing" out of using a computer.
JLL

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post #154 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnel

Here's a few things I posted on another forum, I thought it might be worth repeating them here...

Firstly, during the Keynote when the guy used Time Machine to retrieve the presentation file, he called up a preview of that file which opened up (pretty quickly - much quicker than loading it into Keynote proper) in a simple black-framed preview window. That's new - Preview doesn't open Keynote files (at least in Tiger) so it's not using that, so I'm wondering if there's a new file previewing architecture we don't know about yet? That ties in nicely with the fact that we saw nothing about the Finder...

Secondly, there was a Spotlight icon in the dock. That might just be a "home" for the Spotlight Results windows, but it might be something a little more interesting? A little worryingly, there's quite a lot of icons down by the Finder icon now - Dashboard, Time Machine, Spaces, Spotlight. That's quite a bit of dock real estate. Ho hum.

Something not in the Keynote, but a thing I'd like to see as an extension of the Spotlight theme is Smart Labels. If you can associate a label colour to a bunch of metadata, then the Finder can auto-label any matching file. Even better would be if this was implemented as an open API, so any application could query if a piece of data should be labelled.

For instance, you could set up a smart label for a particular client. Automatically, any contacts in your address book who work for the client company get labelled, as well as any emails from them in Mail, and any files you're prepping for the client in the Finder.

That'd be good.

Enough rambling from me...

Neil
a.k.a. Arnel


It could be Quick Look. Spotlight now can preview a bunch of files and even play QT movies without oppening up the app. Maybe that icon was Quick Look open or ready in the doc for just such moments.
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post #155 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLL

Apple is here to take all that "all I do is type "apt-get install XGL" and then do about 5 minutes of (well documented) configing" out of using a computer.

Yep. Spot on.

One of my Windows using colleagues pointed out that 'Time Machine' was the 'same' as 'Previous Versions' in Windows and then showed me how to right click on a shared folder, click the properties tab and restore a previous version of the folder.

I just sat there and thought for a moment.

...


"Yeah, but it's not in a funky 3D starfield with automatic difference finding and not showing you the difference in place in the application you're using"


There's doing something and there's doing something well. Claiming 'Previous Versions' is the same is as sensible as me claiming we've got it already with rsync.
post #156 of 177
Yup. I use rsync and snapshots to great effect, rather like the basic functionality of Time Machine.

But it's a pain to use. I can't wait for this to come down the pipe.
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post #157 of 177
I'm not really impressed with anything that doesn't let me recover just a file. Restoring a snapshot in some cases entails losing any files that haven't been captured in the last snaptshop in some cases I believe.

Replacing a folder is cool but I really like that way Time Machine drills down the to the file. Will a combination of rsnc and snapshots recover down to the file? If so I'll have to become a bit more acquainted with rsync.
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post #158 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison

Replacing a folder is cool but I really like that way Time Machine drills down the to the file. Will a combination of rsnc and snapshots recover down to the file? If so I'll have to become a bit more acquainted with rsync.

I don't know if rsync can do that, however if it can, it is a convoluted way of doing it, and defiantly not as intuitive or efficient as Time Machine.

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-- Mike Eggleston
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-- Wii #: 8913 3004 4519 2027

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post #159 of 177
You can recover anything from a single file to a whole drive out of a snapshot, simply because the snapshot looks like the entire drive - you can use the Finder or Terminal to grab them like from any other drive.

The problem is that you can't really 'spin back' through time easily, and *that* is the useful task. Instead, you have to access the date *first*, *THEN* drill down to the data. Not the way most people think, and Apple realized that. MS, VMS, and the other Linux solutions... not so much.
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post #160 of 177
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