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post #81 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by scavanger

I disagree with this right here. I haven't had the chance to watch the keynote or the demonstrations about this since I'm at work, but....

Time Machine seems like a improved version of the Windows XP System Restore feature.
Spaces is pretty much linux's virtual desktop concept.
The iChat sharing desktop feature seems to be a pretty similar application to Windows XP's remote assitance feature.

No offense but that quote is pretty misleading, when 2 of the features seem to be taken from Windows XP itself.

And Windows XP Remote Assistance is a poor reduced capability ripoff of Timbuktu, which debuted on the Mac ages ago.

The idea of videoconferencing and over the network presentations (WebEx, etc) are not new. But Apple has lowered the price of entry to just the OS and free app, and made it easy to use for the average person by putting it into iChat. You wouldn't believe how many problems you can have signing a few people up for a WebEx presentation.
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post #82 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005

And Windows XP Remote Assistance is a poor reduced capability ripoff of Timbuktu, which debuted on the Mac ages ago.

The idea of videoconferencing and over the network presentations (WebEx, etc) are not new. But Apple has lowered the price of entry to just the OS and free app, and made it easy to use for the average person by putting it into iChat. You wouldn't believe how many problems you can have signing a few people up for a WebEx presentation.

Windows XP Remote Desktop Connection is a limited version of Terminal Services. Will Apple ever do Terminal Services in OS X to allow Citrix-type server-to-client capabilities???
post #83 of 177
For those of you who haven't seen the keynote, go watch it.

It is pretty easy to see what could be coming down the road to iTunes after viewing the presentation about Core Animation.

Time Machine is nothing like Windows Restore.

Apple gave just enough excitement today to get your imagination going. And just enough to make those with Vista on their minds to wonder just what awaits.

It is pretty clear that Apple is not showing their hand on the final look and feel. They are just teasing the people they need to tease.

XCode 3 was announced by Jobs at the very end of the keynote.

And I expect that the Spring release is something they have well in hand and will probably be on the front of that timeline. At least, that has been their MO lately.
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post #84 of 177
LOL

Mark2005 thank you for that post. Gene Clean....buddy you got owned. Next time try and be original and think up some stuff on your own.
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post #85 of 177
At the end Steve talks about the next generation of Front Row, Photoboth, Mail, iCal, Dashboard, and iChat. He says explicitly that he did not show us everything they are doing.

He didn't show anything about Front Row or Photoboth and very little about iCal.

They showed new tools for Dashboard but did not show much new about the Dashboard interface. Obviously at this point it is logical for widgets to come out onto the desktop. But Steve showed none of that.

Which clearly means there is a lot more coming in the future.
post #86 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes

But that's not by Apple.

Are you sure? I was told that it was.
post #87 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Beardsley

Melgross don't fret over the lack of discussion reguarding resolution independence. I don't believe that showed up in Steve's WWDC keynote last time around. That was in the Graphics and Media State of the Union presentation. It will be those more focused workshops where the under the hood enhancements are discussed.

I wasn't actually the one who brought that up. But I agreed with the poster who did bring it up.

Quote:

I for one am very eager to learn more about Objective-C 2. Here's what the blurb on Apple.com had to say:



I'm anxious to see how they managed garbage collection, and what syntax changes they made. Objective-C is a great language, but it was starting to show its age. Glad to see them sprucing it up.
post #88 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielctull

Where does it say that Xcode 3.0 is getting released today? I've been listening and reading, but not hearing or seeing it.

Oddly, Xcode 2.4 is shown for download on the ADC Xcode page but I don't see it on the downloads page in the Member Site. Will 2.4 be a stop gap and we'll have to buy Leopard to get the 3.0 features? As with Kickaha, I am really looking forward to it, so the sooner the better.

Time Machine looks amazing. How easy to use and intuitive does that look? I would imagine it's detecting the changes, as Backup currently does. So a big first copy, then lots of incremental ones, detailing changes. Of course if that is how it's done, it just makes searching through the individual system states even more incredible.

The rest of the stuff looked cool. I'm glad they're putting effort into Accessibility, it's okay for folks without disabilities to sit there and say it's fine for me or whatever, but everyone should be able to use computers. Spaces looked okay, I've used virtual desktops before, the key now is clicking an app in the dock takes you to the screen with that app in.

Lets face it, Apple has been very under promising lately and significantly over delivering on their promise:
  • Tiger to ship by 2h 2005 (IIRC), launched end of April, 2 months ahead.
  • Ship Intel macs by WWDC 2006, ~6 months ahead.
  • Move to Intel by end of 2007 was the first quote WWDC 2005, 16 months ahead.

The features list will grow. There are killer apps. This is the release that will compete directly with Windows. No smoke, no mirrors, no different platforms to hide behind. It's Windows vs. Mac OS X. Vista vs. Leopard.

Tiger launched early because, after Apple and Intel made their deal, Apple didn't want to besmirch the Dev conf with Tiger. They wanted the entire focus on the Intel relationship. They launched Tiger two months earlier than it was thought to be launched to give it plenty of time out there.

My friends inside Apple said that it was surprising that it launched when it did. considering that almost no one inside Apple knew of the Intel deal, that is not surprising.

I wasn't surprised that Apple moved the launch times of the machines up. That really was to be expected. Apple was dealing with a customer base that would drop their purchases if they knew that the machines would be HERE. So a bit of deception was needed. If they thought they had a year, they would continue to buy machines. The holiday sales proved that idea to be sound. Then, drop the shoe, and have an immediate announcement of availability of some popular models. The ones for the most fickle part of the customer base.

By that time everyone suspected that Apple would rush the rest, and so they did.

It was an obvious, and good, business strategy.

But you can't assume that it will follow for Leopard, though I suspect that it might be out somewhat before Spring.
post #89 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell

Microsoft kills Virtual PC for the Mac.

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/08/07/vpc/index.php

At this point in time, who cares? There are enough virtual, and MS environments of one sort or another, for the Mac out, or shortly will be. Those, plus Boot Camp, will cover the field.
post #90 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

consistant look and feel $50, although it should have been kept consistant all along
the ability to turn off spotlight and dashboard for older macs: $0 It should have been a DB/Spotlight feature in Tiger


and the 800LB Gorilla that Apple is ignoring
FIX THE F(antastic) FINDER!!!!
If done right (cleaner UI, better speed, better handling of nfs/smb shares and better FTP), $50


And the new multi-desktop thing is really cool, lets say $10 shareware price...

iChat (sans the keying which is really slick) is doing now what I did with netmeeting in Windows 98...so that has a whopping value of $0 Freeware...but I will be generous and add $20 for keying.

The finder is PERFECT. Otherwise they would have fixed it YEARS ago.\
post #91 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison

I find it odd that you guys are debating based on very little knowledge of the "nuts and bolts" of Leopard and UI that hasn't been announced yet. Seems like a waste of time.

OS updates are also about changing the plumbing to enable better functionality of the apps using said plumbing.

I'm pretty damn interested in what Apple's NOT telling the public about. I find it interesting that they are saying little about

Quart Extreme and 2D enhancements
Updates to Core API
No finder updates
Nothing on Automator
Nothing on Applescript

etc


Apple has much more to divulge but for now they are just whetting the appetite a bit. It's up to Mac users to read between the lines a bit more. Some of you have grown so dependent on Thinksecret and AI to provide you info about what's coming you haven't built up skills of your own.

Leopard is going to be a nice OS just as Tiger was. The pieces are falling into place we just have to be patient.

We all find it odd that they did not comment on those items, as well as others we brought up earlier.

I don't remember Apple doing this before. They didn't do it when XP was in final stages of development, why now? It's not very likely, despite what some might think, that MS will start to rewrite their code to add Apple's features. For the next major update to their OS, possibly. But that;'s a good two years away, and by then, we will will be seeing 10.6 at the dev conf anyway.
post #92 of 177
I wonder if Spotlight will be able to use Time Machine.
post #93 of 177
Why don't they skip hop and jump to the chase and just provide built-in big-people versioning?
post #94 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALM

I wonder if Spotlight will be able to use Time Machine.

That's an interesting question.
post #95 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

Why don't they skip hop and jump to the chase and just provide built-in big-people versioning?

Ok, I'll bite. what are you talking about?
post #96 of 177
Is it just me or is the finder getting a little too cluttered with organizational tools. Between Spaces, exposé, and spotlight I never know what I should be using anymore
post #97 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by akheron01

Is it just me or is the finder getting a little too cluttered with organizational tools. Between Spaces, exposé, and spotlight I never know what I should be using anymore

Fortunately, it's not the finder that's getting cluttered, it's the keyboard. Well, I always thought that someday, we'd have a real use for them.
post #98 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister

Check out the cursor left in the CoreAnimation video... it appears after the first few seconds.

I believe the cursor is there because this was more like a screen-capture than a video. In the Keynote the guy was talking about how this was not a movie, but was being produced.

Other thoughts after reading all the other comments:

Some people are acting like this Virtual Desktops is a great idea that hadn't existed for OS X yet. Actually there are a couple of 3rd party solutions (You Control Desktops, Virtue Desktops), but they all have their flaws. I was waiting for Apple to implement virtual desktops because I knew they would do it right, and from the short preview it looks like they might've (the one feature they didn't mention which I really hope they implemented is individual backgrounds). I'm super excited about Spaces :-)

I'm also very excited about that web-capture-dashboard-thingy. I wish I could have it right now, there are a couple of widgets I already want to make with it!

On another note, it looks like most of us agree that there IS plenty more to come for Leopard (the "top secret" stuff). Apple has always been super secretive, so this comes as no surprise. And also, to those of you who disagree, did you so quickly forget how suddenly and out-of-the-blue Apple dropped the Intel transition on us? I have no doubt in my mind that they have some really great stuff up their sleeves yet again (maybe not quite so major, but probably still exciting).

I am really surprised at the number of people who are disappointed with this sneak peak of Leopard. The Keynote was clearly just skimming the surface of this next iteration of OS X. I think maybe the huge rumor-mill base that surrounds OS X is getting people's expectations too high...

My 2 cents.
post #99 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdamon

I believe the cursor is there because this was more like a screen-capture than a video. In the Keynote the guy was talking about how this was not a movie, but was being produced.

Other thoughts after reading all the other comments:

Some people are acting like this Virtual Desktops is a great idea that hadn't existed for OS X yet. Actually there are a couple of 3rd party solutions (You Control Desktops, Virtue Desktops), but they all have their flaws. I was waiting for Apple to implement virtual desktops because I knew they would do it right, and from the short preview it looks like they might've (the one feature they didn't mention which I really hope they implemented is individual backgrounds). I'm super excited about Spaces :-)

I'm also very excited about that web-capture-dashboard-thingy. I wish I could have it right now, there are a couple of widgets I already want to make with it!

On another note, it looks like most of us agree that there IS plenty more to come for Leopard (the "top secret" stuff). Apple has always been super secretive, so this comes as no surprise. And also, to those of you who disagree, did you so quickly forget how suddenly and out-of-the-blue Apple dropped the Intel transition on us? I have no doubt in my mind that they have some really great stuff up their sleeves yet again (maybe not quite so major, but probably still exciting).

I am really surprised at the number of people who are disappointed with this sneak peak of Leopard. The Keynote was clearly just skimming the surface of this next iteration of OS X. I think maybe the huge rumor-mill base that surrounds OS X is getting people's expectations too high...

My 2 cents.

The Intel transition was just ever so slightly more important to the company than Leopard is. If the secret of the transition got out, Apple could have lost a billion sales dollars before they ever said a word about it.
post #100 of 177
I was impressed by the keynote and the MacPros. Those look like great specs, and Ill be picking a couple up soon.

Spaces looks great. I never thought Apple would release virt. desktops in OSX. After the YEARS of debate about this feature--specifically the end-user's ability to understand it--Apple seem to have pulled it off. Good job.

I was excited by the possibilities of Core Animation. If these 3D effects are being applied in real time, then it seems like a big step toward a 3D OS environment. Did any of you pick up on this during the 'iTunes' commercial demo? The app was showing album details in real-time...and in a composited 3D environment. Just imagine how else this could be applied. If data are streamed, then many possibilities are presented. Very cool.

Overall, it was a great keynote. I can't wait for Leopard.
post #101 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keda

I was impressed by the keynote and the MacPros. Those look like great specs, and Ill be picking a couple up soon.

Overall, it was a great keynote. I can't wait for Leopard.

Yes, you can
post #102 of 177
I am looking to make the switch (finally...i know). I just have one question...

If I buy, say the MacBook, now and Leopard comes out in March what will my options be for upgrading?

How much does it cost? I heard something about a family pack of a few copies, if I get some friends together how much will it cost a piece?

Most importantly is it worth waiting if I am not desperate for a new computer yet?
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post #103 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by wealjays

I am looking to make the switch (finally...i know). I just have one question...

If I buy, say the MacBook, now and Leopard comes out in March what will my options be for upgrading?

How much does it cost? I heard something about a family pack of a few copies, if I get some friends together how much will it cost a piece?

Most importantly is it worth waiting if I am not desperate for a new computer yet?

a couple of things here.

Leopard will work just fine on a Macbook.

The family pack means just that. No friends, unless you all live at the same address. The regular version lists for $129, and the family pack of five lists for $199. Unless Apple changes that.

Usually, if you wait a week or more, Amazon will have them cheaper. Perhaps $109 - $119 for the single, to $179 -$189 for the family. Others, such as OWC.com will have discounts as well.

But, remember, Family Pack will not allow people living in seperate places to register. After the first registration, the rest won't go through. Unless Apple has changed that, but I don't think so.
post #104 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

Why don't they skip hop and jump to the chase and just provide built-in big-people versioning?

My guess it's built on top of rsync + hard links.

Minimal overhead for multiple versions, every snapshot looks like a full disk... best of both worlds.

Unless you're talking about something like svn... WAY overkill for the average user, and a pain in the ass to integrate. "Wow, now everything has to go through the database API even if it's just flat file!" Naw.
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post #105 of 177
<sigh>

2006
4Mb Cable connection
streaming keynotes still sucks
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post #106 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison

<sigh>

2006
4Mb Cable connection
streaming keynotes still sucks

It's not you.
post #107 of 177
A somewhat different take on Leopard. Not a fanboi's view.

http://www.tomshardware.com/
post #108 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

a couple of things here.
But, remember, Family Pack will not allow people living in seperate places to register. After the first registration, the rest won't go through. Unless Apple has changed that, but I don't think so.

Hmm? Registration?
post #109 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Hmm? Registration?

Well, if you are not going to register your other computers for support, why buy the Family Pack in the first place?
post #110 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

A somewhat different take on Leopard. Not a fanboi's view.

http://www.tomshardware.com/

And also wrong in a couple of places.

Stationary is new to Mail - HTML isn't.

Mail does not mail you notes - they are system wide and every app can use them.

But the 'e-mail youself notes and to-do's' is actually what I do several times every day. I'm just the right target for Notes in Mail*

I don't like RSS feeds in Mail though - it seems more stressing having to go through 25 unread RSS articles instead of opening one page in Safari with all 25 articles on it.
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post #111 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

Why don't they skip hop and jump to the chase and just provide built-in big-people versioning?

The underlying system here goes way beyond that. And becomes system-wide version-control. Time Machine is a consumer-level interface into that, but I'll wager that there are APIs which allow it to appear as an easy-to-implement version control system for all apps.

C.
post #112 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALM

I wonder if Spotlight will be able to use Time Machine.

For clarification, you're wondering if Spotlight will search Time Machine backups?

Another question: Similar to Spotlight, will Time Machine have a command line interface?

Heck if I know, yet.
post #113 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjk

For clarification, you're wondering if Spotlight will search Time Machine backups?

Another question: Similar to Spotlight, will Time Machine have a command line interface?

Heck if I know, yet.

I betting on that finder window acting just like normal. He showed it so that you can view a folder, but the sidebar is present, as well as search. I'd be completely disappointed if you couldn't browse each backup of the system, via point and click or via spotlight search. Which as I said before, from a developers point of view, this is a much more complicated app than any user will ever realise.
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post #114 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

Tiger launched early because, after Apple and Intel made their deal, Apple didn't want to besmirch the Dev conf with Tiger. They wanted the entire focus on the Intel relationship. They launched Tiger two months earlier than it was thought to be launched to give it plenty of time out there.

My friends inside Apple said that it was surprising that it launched when it did. considering that almost no one inside Apple knew of the Intel deal, that is not surprising.

I wasn't surprised that Apple moved the launch times of the machines up. That really was to be expected. Apple was dealing with a customer base that would drop their purchases if they knew that the machines would be HERE. So a bit of deception was needed. If they thought they had a year, they would continue to buy machines. The holiday sales proved that idea to be sound. Then, drop the shoe, and have an immediate announcement of availability of some popular models. The ones for the most fickle part of the customer base.

By that time everyone suspected that Apple would rush the rest, and so they did.

It was an obvious, and good, business strategy.

But you can't assume that it will follow for Leopard, though I suspect that it might be out somewhat before Spring.

My point wasn't so much that Leopard will release earlier than spring 2007, but that there will be new and better features coming to Leopard. Although, I can't help but imagine it coming out at MWSF 07 to blow away Vista. Nay-sayers like in that Tom's Hardware article (which got a fair amount of information wrong - mostly, it presumed that this was a complete feature list) will be reporting of this crazy "Mac OS X" which has come along, not only earlier than projected, but with double the amount of released features. Compare this to the "still lingering Vista" release with hardly any of the ground breaking features. Hmm hmm...

To be fair, I'm not sure how many new/updated features are going to be in Vista, there may be fewer in the Leopard release, but it's all mind games at the end of the day right? Leopard will look like it's getting more because the feature list got bigger, whereas Vista's got smaller.

PS. Will there be a MW Paris keynote does anyone know? I think they will use that to display more user oriented updates. If you think about the ones we have seen at WWDC, there were a lot of developer-oriented apps (Dashcode, Xcode 3, Core Animation, Spaces) or apps developers are expected to hook into (Time Machine), but not too many end user apps. They may have chosen to logically split these up so that they will be focusing on the right user groups. Not that developers aren't users, but developers will surely know of features released at MW Paris, if they see them there or on the web.
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post #115 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

the ability to turn off spotlight and dashboard

Er... you already can turn off spotlight (scroll down to the "a better way" comment), and turn off dashboard.

Another great way of diabling these features is to use 10.3.9 instead of 10.4.x
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post #116 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

The finder is PERFECT. Otherwise they would have fixed it YEARS ago.\

I hope that was a joke. (I'm not sure if your smiley at the end was in response to the message you'd quoted, or an indication that you were being sarcastic.)
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post #117 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H

Er... you already can turn off spotlight (scroll down to the "a better way" comment), and turn off dashboard.

Another great way of diabling these features is to use 10.3.9 instead of 10.4.x

Yes you or I can turn it off, but grandma on the 800Mhz iMac with 256MB ram may have a hard time with that...it chould be in prefs.
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post #118 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielctull

Where does it say that Xcode 3.0 is getting released today? I've been listening and reading, but not hearing or seeing it.

I'm sure I read it somewhere. Might have been in the IRC logs so perhaps badly quoted or misheard.
post #119 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

Yes you or I can turn it off, but grandma on the 800Mhz iMac with 256MB ram may have a hard time with that...it chould be in prefs.

A grandma on an 800 MHz iMac with 256 MB RAM is unlikely to have Tiger to begin with.
post #120 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

...
And the new multi-desktop thing is really cool, lets say $10 shareware price..

I attempted to price the value of Leopards features earlier and I need to make a correction -- the value of this is now $0 because I can do it already -- along with a cool cube interface too on Linux... all I do is type "apt-get install XGL" and then do about 5 minutes of (well documented) configing and presto...instant 3d multidesktop...complete with neat lil' cube effect!

And it is OPEN SOURCE!

info at: http://en.opensuse.org/Xgl
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