or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac Software › Microsoft axes Virtual PC for Mac, Office still planned
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Microsoft axes Virtual PC for Mac, Office still planned - Page 2

post #41 of 106
OpenOffice.org, aka the-project-that-will-never-innovate?
post #42 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedalmatian

personally i wish Apple would stop faffing about with iWork (with the exception of Keynote) and get behind OpenOffice.

But that's even more backwards facing and horrible that Microsoft Office. It's as good as Office97 was and not much better. It's slow, bloated and not Mac-like in the slightest. If you've really low expectations of your software then enjoy OpenOffice.org.
post #43 of 106
One less avenue for viruses to hit my Mac. (and the nastiest viruses in the history of the Mac were all VBA based.)

I just hope Apple has a serious iWork upgrade in store for us, adding in the key missing features and making it fast as sin.

I'd love to dump Office all together for a superior product--sorry Open Office--and not care about Microsoft ever again.
post #44 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

OpenOffice.org, aka the-project-that-will-never-innovate?

Exactly the problem with Open Office.

Sure it is free. But it copies too much of the worst of Office. Designed by committee.

My hope is in iWork. I just hope Apple has the balls to take MSOffice on.

Apple, build it and we will come.
post #45 of 106
Well, iWork and MS Office have some significant differences in their approaches (and, thus, in the results). iWork is as thoroughly "KISS" as possible, whereas MS Office (and, surprise, also OpenOffice.org) tries to accommodate for every possible usage case, be it for the typical consumer or a homongous organization's user. iWork really only (or at least primarily) caters for the former, but it does so much better.

I'm still confident that we will see iWork expanded into a more complete suite, but it will never have the level of complexity Office has, and for good reason. It is this very simplicity that makes Apple's application design shine. They try to do just one thing, but do it well.
post #46 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by icfireball

Thanks are in the craper at M$. How does that relate to what you quoted me on?

I hit the wrong button.
Hard-Core.
Reply
Hard-Core.
Reply
post #47 of 106
everyone forget about Crossover office? should be a beta out soon, and final relase out before new MS Office is out. Itll let you run the Windows version of office (and other apps) in OSX without having a copy of Windows.
post #48 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWhaler

Exactly the problem with Open Office.

Sure it is free. But it copies too much of the worst of Office. Designed by committee.

My hope is in iWork. I just hope Apple has the balls to take MSOffice on.

Apple, build it and we will come.

OO.o does (mostly) solve the version compatibility issue though, it will take in docs from more versions of Word with generally fewer problems than a contemporary version of Word will. Apparently it doesn't do anything for VBA but that's not an issue for me.

For me, OO.o works and that's what I care about. I really don't think innovation in an "office" suite is important, any more so than I need an artsy looking shovel for the BS around an office.

Edit: For Mac, I assume NeoOffice as OO.o itself doesn't directly support OS X very well.
post #49 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by macanoid

This shows a lot of promise: Tables

Does look promising. Gonna keep my eye on this one.
post #50 of 106
Wait a second...won't the Dept. of Justice get pissed, at this anti-competative, monopolistic behavior? Or did Bill and Steve give Bush and his friends, including Attorney General Gonzales, a few trips to Europe and a new car?

This sucks. But I checked out NeoOffice, wow things are coming along! Can't until it's finalized! No VBA but hey maybe someday. Even still it looks almost as good as Office. I may even switch someday. I may have to.
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
Reply
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
Reply
post #51 of 106
Oh well. Apple, could we have an iWork based iOffice if you please?
post #52 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedalmatian

personally i wish Apple would stop faffing about with iWork (with the exception of Keynote) and get behind OpenOffice.

In the meantimeThinkFree Office looks promising.

Thinkfree is in no way a real competitor. Even Openoffice is lacking.
post #53 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig

Oh well. Apple, could we have an iWork based iOffice if you please?

What do you need?
post #54 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWhaler

Exactly the problem with Open Office.

Sure it is free. But it copies too much of the worst of Office. Designed by committee.

My hope is in iWork. I just hope Apple has the balls to take MSOffice on.

Apple, build it and we will come.

What you think of as a problem with OO, is the aim of the suite. The entire purpose was to make it as compatible with Office as possible, so that users of Office could go to OO and not miss a beat.

If you think that is the "worst" of Office, then you have seen what is intended to be its strength. If they could suddenly clone Office, and call it OO, then their ultimate goal will have been accomplished.
post #55 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub

I hit the wrong button.

You sure did, you're in the wrong forum.
post #56 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic

Wait a second...won't the Dept. of Justice get pissed, at this anti-competative, monopolistic behavior? Or did Bill and Steve give Bush and his friends, including Attorney General Gonzales, a few trips to Europe and a new car?

This sucks. But I checked out NeoOffice, wow things are coming along! Can't until it's finalized! No VBA but hey maybe someday. Even still it looks almost as good as Office. I may even switch someday. I may have to.

Yes, now that NeoOffice is at the current OO version is does seem much better.

For those not familliar with Neo, it is OO with an Aqua interface, also free.
post #57 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

What do you need?

Office evolved.
post #58 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig

Office evolved.

The real issue for many (me included of course) is the compatibility in the near-term. This is what will effect purchase and use decisions. We would all like to see Office get better, or a replacement (and there are a number of possbilities that have been mentioned) but if its not on both platforms it can't even begin to be adopted. I'm interested in learning about the non-VB roadmap for Office on the PC. Does anyone have any links that are worthwhile?
post #59 of 106
There's no question that MS is deliberately shafting Apple with this move. As has already been said, let the OS war begin! Make no mistake about it, this is serious business, and this: "Although VB macros within files will not be accessible and cannot be viewed or modified, the files themselves can be edited without affecting or changing the macros." is a joke.

That said, it seems its really not too bad for us Mac users thanks to OpenOffice. OpenOffice, which I discarded after researching because it's basically an Office copycat, may in fact save the day because of that same "feature". If they maintain VB compatibility in future versions they will become the "new" Office for Mac.

In the short term, there's absolutely nothing to worry about. The existing Office is more than sufficient and OpenOffice may even be a better bet. I'm going to have another look into that.

In the long term, it's going to be up to Apple to develop iWork into something truly worthy of the platform, match Office's feature set, and maintain compatibility. And I can't believe that Apple would push MS's hand the way they have without being confident in what they can do.

If nothing else, it's going to be an interesting next few years.
post #60 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash

There's no question that MS is deliberately shafting Apple with this move. As has already been said, let the OS war begin! Make no mistake about it, this is serious business, and this: "Although VB macros within files will not be accessible and cannot be viewed or modified, the files themselves can be edited without affecting or changing the macros." is a joke.

While I generally don't ascribe to those theories, this time it may have something to it. Even though MS won't be using VB in its own products after a while, this is too early to be eliminating it from Mac Office.

The one thing though, Mac Office is a highly profitable area for them, and with more Mac's being sold, they would be selling more copies of it as well.

I can only guess that as MS can afford to lose billions on the X Box, just to have a presence in an area important to them, they can afford to lose sales of Office on the Mac, if they think they can keep enough people from migrating, and thus losing Windows, and all of their other software sales as well.

As long as they continue to develop Office for the Intel Mac, they will have fulfilled their contract with Apple.
post #61 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

While I generally don't ascribe to those theories, this time it may have something to it. Even though MS won't be using VB in its own products after a while, this is too early to be eliminating it from Mac Office.

I agree with your first comment. However, the next Office:mac is not coming for a while. I call it Office 2008. The tenor and tone of Microsoft's announcement yesterday leads me to believe it may be later than that. MacBU may know that VBA will already be dead before then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

The one thing though, Mac Office is a highly profitable area for them, and with more Mac's being sold, they would be selling more copies of it as well.

Microsoft may want World Domination, but it needs profits. For years now, only three of Microsoft's seven business units have earned a profit. [IIRC, Microsoft is consolidating its operations to reduce the number of business units.]
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

I can only guess that as MS can afford to lose billions on the X Box, just to have a presence in an area important to them, they can afford to lose sales of Office on the Mac, if they think they can keep enough people from migrating, and thus losing Windows, and all of their other software sales as well.

That's just it. Microsoft cannot afford to lose billions on the Xbox. It is doing everything it knows to make a profit there. However, the Xbox cannot get any hotter than it is now, but it still loses money. When it cools off, where does Microsoft go. Losing Mac sales is not Microsoft's strategy for mitigating losses elsewhere. Microsoft cuts its losses by dropping non-revenue generating products like Internet Explorer:mac and Windows Media Player:mac. The situation with Office:mac is a case of Microsoft's past sins catching up with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

As long as they continue to develop Office for the Intel Mac, they will have fulfilled their contract with Apple.

The contract with Apple is strictly PR. Microsoft produces Office:mac because it has a significant positive impact on Microsoft's bottomline.
post #62 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy

Does this mean it comes back to the OS version? Is VB available in OO 2.0 or NeoOffice?

Neither. It's available on SLED, Novell's Linux Enteprise Desktop, integrated into OpenOffice that ships with the product.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
post #63 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

OpenOffice.org, aka the-project-that-will-never-innovate?

Innovation is not always important or necessary.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
Reply
post #64 of 106
MS got caught with their pants down on VPC. First the move to the G5s and then the surprise move to Intel. When they delivered on the G5 version they restricted it to supporting only 2000 and XP. Now Parallels comes along and supports all MS OS's as well as a raft of others. MS simply doesn't have the Mac oriented personnel to handle that conversion as well as Office, where the money is.

As far as VBA goes, what percent of the Office users use it? 3 - 5%? I think that's an easy decision when MBU is allocating their programmers to various tasks. The first priority is to get out a basic Universal Office, which is a tough road for them - probably close to a full rewrite.
Ken
Reply
Ken
Reply
post #65 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me

That's just it. Microsoft cannot afford to lose billions on the Xbox. It is doing everything it knows to make a profit there. However, the Xbox cannot get any hotter than it is now, but it still loses money. When it cools off, where does Microsoft go.

They make virtually all of their profits on OS's and Office. They can afford to lose money elsewhere, or else they wouldn't be doing it, and still have the highest profitability in the software industry.

Quote:
Losing Mac sales is not Microsoft's strategy for mitigating losses elsewhere. Microsoft cuts its losses by dropping non-revenue generating products like Internet Explorer:mac and Windows Media Player:mac. The situation with Office:mac is a case of Microsoft's past sins catching up with it.
The contract with Apple is strictly PR. Microsoft produces Office:mac because it has a significant positive impact on Microsoft's bottomline.

The Mac BU has sales of about $300 - $400 million a year. that's a drop in the bucket for MS whose sales are over $50 billion a year. they could drop the entire BU, and not remember they did it.
post #66 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenaustus

MS got caught with their pants down on VPC. First the move to the G5s and then the surprise move to Intel. When they delivered on the G5 version they restricted it to supporting only 2000 and XP.

Not true. I'm running two flavours of Linux and WinNT4 on mine. I've ran Minix, BeOS and even DOS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenaustus

As far as VBA goes, what percent of the Office users use it? 3 - 5%? I think that's an easy decision when MBU is allocating their programmers to various tasks. The first priority is to get out a basic Universal Office, which is a tough road for them - probably close to a full rewrite.

It really could do with a rewrite too.

Whilst I agree that only a small percentage of Office users use VBA, if the Windows version runs it and the Mac version doesn't then people won't buy the Mac version as they know some things will not work.
post #67 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

The Mac BU has sales of about $300 - $400 million a year. that's a drop in the bucket for MS whose sales are over $50 billion a year. they could drop the entire BU, and not remember they did it.

Didn't they roll the MacBU into the XBox division?

Perhaps that's how they're going to make the XBox division make money.
post #68 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy

Does this mean it comes back to the OS version? Is VB available in OO 2.0 or NeoOffice?

Neither. It's available on SLED, Novell's Linux Enteprise Desktop, integrated into OpenOffice that ships with the product.

Not to derail the discussion but isn't the aim of OS such that if you add such a thing at VBA to OO that you need to make that available back to the community??? I'm still trying to understand the details of OS. Thanks in advance.
post #69 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign

Didn't they roll the MacBU into the XBox division?

Perhaps that's how they're going to make the XBox division make money.

Heh!

Drat, no more short pithy replies.
post #70 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy

Not to derail the discussion but isn't the aim of OS such that if you add such a thing at VBA to OO that you need to make that available back to the community??? I'm still trying to understand the details of OS. Thanks in advance.

The other possibility is that Novell has a license from MS.
post #71 of 106
If in 5 years time Microsoft stopped developing the Mac version of Office. I don't think it would do a great deal of harm.

Apple have now got 5 years to develop the pants off of iWork and make it a really great suite (it looks like it's heading in the direction of greatness). iWork will eventually become the new 'Office' for Macs. Plus it would still include (and expand on) the .Doc/PDF/XML import, export options etc... Organizations who really 'needed' the vast range of MS Office features could simply buy the PC version and use the ole faithful Boot Camp or a virtualization solutions.
5-8" MultiTouch Mini Tablet would go down a treat if you're reading!
Reply
5-8" MultiTouch Mini Tablet would go down a treat if you're reading!
Reply
post #72 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

Well, iWork and MS Office have some significant differences in their approaches (and, thus, in the results). iWork is as thoroughly "KISS" as possible, whereas MS Office (and, surprise, also OpenOffice.org) tries to accommodate for every possible usage case, be it for the typical consumer or a homongous organization's user. iWork really only (or at least primarily) caters for the former, but it does so much better.

I'm still confident that we will see iWork expanded into a more complete suite, but it will never have the level of complexity Office has, and for good reason. It is this very simplicity that makes Apple's application design shine. They try to do just one thing, but do it well.

Albeit this is not 100% applicable in the case of enterprise software development (or perhaps this is precisely where software development is headed), but I once read something along the lines of:

"Perfection is not found at the point where you can no longer add any more, but at the point where there is nothing else to take away."

I've been a Windows user for 95% + of my life, and switched to a Mac last year with the purchase of a 17" Powerbook. To spare everyone from a review like praising of Apple, I'll simply say that simplicity is innovative. Again, I acknowledge that high-end capabilities and functionalities are a must for business, but we all know that Apple could surely create a program as robust as MS Office (Excel specifically), but with the ease of use to blow away any chance of MS recovery. If Apple has been secretly heading in this direction then bravo! If Apple has not, then it's time to get crackin'.
post #73 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123

everyone forget about Crossover office? should be a beta out soon, and final relase out before new MS Office is out. Itll let you run the Windows version of office (and other apps) in OSX without having a copy of Windows.

Sweet. Pirate (Arrghh Mat13!!) MS Office 2007 (or when ever the hell it comes out), and run it on a purcha$ed copy of Crossover Office. Problem solved.
post #74 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by psilopsyche

Albeit this is not 100% applicable in the case of enterprise software development (or perhaps this is precisely where software development is headed), but I once read something along the lines of:

"Perfection is not found at the point where you can no longer add any more, but at the point where there is nothing else to take away."

I've been a Windows user for 95% + of my life, and switched to a Mac last year with the purchase of a 17" Powerbook. To spare everyone from a review like praising of Apple, I'll simply say that simplicity is innovative. Again, I acknowledge that high-end capabilities and functionalities are a must for business, but we all know that Apple could surely create a program as robust as MS Office (Excel specifically), but with the ease of use to blow away any chance of MS recovery. If Apple has been secretly heading in this direction then bravo! If Apple has not, then it's time to get crackin'.

I was reading an article in ComputerWorld the other day about Office, and its competitors.

What they said is that while most users only use 20% of the features of Office, different users use a different 20%. That's what makes it so valuable. One suite can serve the needs of many populations of people.

Simpler programs can't do that.

There is also a large developer community out there making add-ons to the suite. Large companies have their own IT departments write custom software as well.

All of this must be overcome. One reason why Star Office, and its open source brother, OO, haven't made much of a dent is because they aren't compatible with most of these add-ons that these businesses require.

Apple will have that same problem, even if they do develop an alternative to Office, which, right now, at least publicly, they don't seem to be interested in.

Of course, in five years, if the Mac has gained decent marketshare, and the virtualizarion programs have gotten better, or perhaps CrossOver Office has, it won't matter. The Windows version might be all we need.

But, then MS wins there, and we lose.

How many other companies will look at that and think that they could do that as well?
post #75 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

What they said is that while most users only use 20% of the features of Office, different users use a different 20%. That's what makes it so valuable. One suite can serve the needs of many populations of people.

Quite possible. Every company I've ever worked for has given me a copy of Office despite me only having a need for Word for writing specs and tech docs. I've never used Powerpoint in my life and my Excel use could be described at best as fiddling about with CSV files or prototyping code before sticking them in an SQL Server database.

You can probably guess why I won't use Access.

So that probably counts for my 20% usage.
post #76 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign

Quite possible. Every company I've ever worked for has given me a copy of Office despite me only having a need for Word for writing specs and tech docs. I've never used Powerpoint in my life and my Excel use could be described at best as fiddling about with CSV files or prototyping code before sticking them in an SQL Server database.

You can probably guess why I won't use Access.

So that probably counts for my 20% usage.

I'm the same way, though I tend to use InDesign for writing. I know that sounds backwards, but it's really no more of a problem than using a word processor.
post #77 of 106
Besides the fact the lack of a spell check in CS!
Hard-Core.
Reply
Hard-Core.
Reply
post #78 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub

Besides the fact the lack of a spell check in CS!

I'm not sure I know what you mean. I use Apple's.
post #79 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazabrit

Organizations who really 'needed' the vast range of MS Office features could simply buy the PC version and use the ole faithful Boot Camp or a virtualization solutions.

Therein lies the basic problem. Organisations are very unlikely to buy the PC version and run it on Macs. They will just buy PCs and run Office on them and a lot of people who used to be able to use Macs at home and PCs at work, including many potential switchers, no longer can without being slugged extra expense.
"When I was a kid, my favourite relative was Uncle Caveman. After school, wed all go play in his cave, and every once and awhile, hed eat one of us. It wasnt until later that I discovered Uncle...
Reply
"When I was a kid, my favourite relative was Uncle Caveman. After school, wed all go play in his cave, and every once and awhile, hed eat one of us. It wasnt until later that I discovered Uncle...
Reply
post #80 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telomar

Therein lies the basic problem. Organisations are very unlikely to buy the PC version and run it on Macs. They will just buy PCs and run Office on them and a lot of people who used to be able to use Macs at home and PCs at work, including many potential switchers, no longer can without being slugged extra expense.

It is possible that companies will continue to do what they do now. If an employee needs Office to do work at home, they will give it to them. As long as they have paid for the seats, that's fine.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Mac Software
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac Software › Microsoft axes Virtual PC for Mac, Office still planned