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Vista woes helping to build a better Leopard

post #1 of 56
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Microsoft Corp's ongoing struggles with Windows Vista are buying Apple Computer more time to strengthen the features in its rival Mac OS X Leopard operating system, one Wall Street analyst says.

At its annual developers conference on Monday, Apple poked fun at Microsoft while introducing ten of the features Mac users could expect in Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard, slated to go on sale next spring. Up until the conference, Apple had insinuated that Leopard would make its debut a bit earlier in the new year.

Shaw Wu, an analyst with American Technology Research, said he expects Microsoft will have to report another round of Vista delays after a number of stability issues were discovered in the latest beta of the software. He said Apple is likely looking to capitalize on that situation by stretching out its development of Leopard in order to add more unique features.

In a summary of Apple's developer conference announcements sent to clients on Tuesday, Wu emphasized Apple's decision to keep some of Leopard's features "top secret," meaning the company has yet to reveal its full hand.

"While we [found Apple's] announcements impressive, we believe there may be slight investor disappointment that Leopard will not ship until Spring 2007 and that Apple did not make more announcements," the analyst said. "However, we believe with Windows Vista likely further delayed due to stability issues with its latest Beta2 version and its 'look and feel' and feature set essentially a 'clone' of Apples's currently shipping Mac OS X Tiger, Apple is choosing to spend more time adding features unique to Leopard."

Also on Monday, Apple announced its Mac Pro desktops systems, which Wu believes are valued quite well when compared to similar offerings from other system manufacturers. "In our analysis, it is also very competitive with high-end PCs and workstations that cost $3000-$6000," he said. "We anticipate this product to sell fairly well in its key markets, including professional and high-end customers who have patiently waited for a high-end Intel Mac"

Wu also told clients he wasn't surprised at the lack of iPod or music-related announcements at Apple's developers conference. He's long predicted a separate music event will take place in either September of October.

The analyst rates shares of Apple a "Buy" with a price target of $75.
post #2 of 56
Loepard looks really good, i cant wait to see what secrets apple are keeping untill its released!
post #3 of 56
This makes a lot of sense. When Microsoft finally decides on a final release date for Vista Apple will release Leopard a few weeks before and steal Vista's thunder. Far better to delay Leopard until just the right moment when it cause the most damage to MS. If Leopard is out too earily people might forget about it when Vista comes along with its billion dollar marketing budget.
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post #4 of 56
Yeah, but what good is a 'streets-ahead' OS if you don't market it right, or at all come to that. Seriously, how many people outside the Mac bubble have even heard of OS X? And of the people that have, how many know what it has to offer...now. Nevermind about Leopard, does anyone outside of Macland know what they're missing RIGHT NOW?

I plead with you Mr Jobs, advertise the OS, before the boat sails past without you on it.
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post #5 of 56
Finally, a fair analysis from this guy.
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post #6 of 56
Shaw Wu speaks a lot of shit. He also changes his mind like the wind.
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post #7 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jms698

If Leopard is out too earily people might forget about it when Vista comes along with its billion dollar marketing budget.

Actually I think Apple should just stick to its schedule and release it when its ready. Releasing just ahead of Vista will only bring all the frustration that windows users are experiencing with the delays to mac users. If they stick to their own time line Apple could be on Sabertooth by the time Vista is released.
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post #8 of 56
Mobius is right on. Until Apple puts Time Machine, iChat collaboration, Spaces, etc. on prime time TV, no one other than you and me and maybe someone else is gonna know what the hell OSX is all about.
post #9 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jms698

This makes a lot of sense. When Microsoft finally decides on a final release date for Vista Apple will release Leopard a few weeks before and steal Vista's thunder. Far better to delay Leopard until just the right moment when it cause the most damage to MS. If Leopard is out too earily people might forget about it when Vista comes along with its billion dollar marketing budget.

I agree. Smart analysis, and I think this is exactly what Apple is going to do.
post #10 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWhaler

I agree. Smart analysis, and I think this is exactly what Apple is going to do.

So do I, It would be great if apple advertised it as well. Just imagine, one minute you see an ad for Vista with all it's non-existant features, then next you see an ad with OS X's amazing qualities and features. It would be great!

I guess we'll be hitting OS X.4.10 soon!
post #11 of 56
On top of releasing Leopard a few weeks ahead, Apple should also release hardware specifically aimed at making their market share go up. A ONE two punch of great OS (Leopard) and Inexpensive single chip desktop Prosumer/Gamer system, Upgraded iMacs, and upgraded Xeon Pro systems would really be effective. And the ad campaign talks up OS X.5 but ends with a great line
"but this Leopard can change it's spots. If you want, You'll find our new hardware the best way to run Vista as well. Apple.
It may not give Apple 50% market share overnight but it is the best possible moment to dramatically change the market share reality of the PC market. After Vista launch hysteria, sales of computers will fall back into a regular upgrade cycle.
And if they have to sacrifice their markup for a quarter or two to gain all of this share they should do it. Expecting Vista to fail/falter leaves too much to chance.
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post #12 of 56
Yeah they should DEFINITELY do an ad showing all of Vista's features, then flash to a Mac, and show the equivalents in Tiger.

Sorta like...that movie with Bill Gates narrating Vista features but the video showing their equivalents in Tiger. In fact, I wish Apple could just air that shit. Seriously. That was fucking SWEET. AND, I think people would "get it." It'd be a fucking home run.

Let's fucking get rid of chiat/day with their "G5 blowing people through their wall" shit. What the fuck is Apple's Marketing Department's problem? These idiots definitely need to get back to Marketing 101. They haven't had a good ad since, well, 1984. Except the iPod ads.
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post #13 of 56
I don't think Apple's Mac Marketing Department gets more than 10% of the funds that the iPod Marketing Department does. When was the last time you saw a Mac advert...?
post #14 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobius

Yeah, but what good is a 'streets-ahead' OS if you don't market it right, or at all come to that. Seriously, how many people outside the Mac bubble have even heard of OS X? And of the people that have, how many know what it has to offer...now. Nevermind about Leopard, does anyone outside of Macland know what they're missing RIGHT NOW?

I plead with you Mr Jobs, advertise the OS, before the boat sales past without you on it.

Agree 100%
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post #15 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland

Shaw Wu speaks a lot of shit. He also changes his mind like the wind.

Evidence please. I've never heard him talk shit (he usually just states the obvious) and also not noticed him changing his mind all that much, if at all.
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post #16 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg

When was the last time you saw a Mac advert...?

Hi. I'm a Mac.

And I'm a PC.

...
post #17 of 56
it's sad but true. i have worked with plenty of windows zealots, and they have no idea what os x does or is. i tell them over and over, and they forget within seconds. then i can work with 98% of the files they give me, yet when i give them a file THEY can't open, they blame the macs "shortcomings." problem is, they are also beyond reason. they are beyond even listening. i think you could strap them into a chair and glue their eyes open and stare at the genie effect for days and they still couldn't tell you what was going on.

i mean, it's friggin' bizarre. maybe apple knows those people are too far gone, and just want to work the subversive angle, where the kids go to the apple store, drag mom and dad there, and while the kids are looking at ipod accessories, the parents just tinker with the desktop, and THEN they're hooked. but they can't be TOLD to do it.

that's why the ipod and apple stores are such a great 1-2 combination. pity there's not an apple store in ottawa (c'mon, apple! it's the capital! maybe a mini-store? pretty please???)
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post #18 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by rok

it's sad but true. i have worked with plenty of windows zealots, and they have no idea what os x does or is. i tell them over and over, and they forget within seconds. then i can work with 98% of the files they give me, yet when i give them a file THEY can't open, they blame the macs "shortcomings." problem is, they are also beyond reason. they are beyond even listening. i think you could strap them into a chair and glue their eyes open and stare at the genie effect for days and they still couldn't tell you what was going on.

i mean, it's friggin' bizarre. maybe apple knows those people are too far gone, and just want to work the subversive angle, where the kids go to the apple store, drag mom and dad there, and while the kids are looking at ipod accessories, the parents just tinker with the desktop, and THEN they're hooked. but they can't be TOLD to do it.

that's why the ipod and apple stores are such a great 1-2 combination. pity there's not an apple store in ottawa (c'mon, apple! it's the capital! maybe a mini-store? pretty please???)


This is why I think Apple's marketshare will increase with a snowball effect. Each person who gets and loves a mac tells all of their friends. A fifth of those people get and love their mac and tell their friends. A fifth of their friends get and buy a mac. Soon you've got a lot of market share.
post #19 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by McHuman

Hi. I'm a Mac.

And I'm a PC.

...

Sadly, those ads fail to advertise the Mac, they simply advertise the arrogence and elietisum of Apple and to a large extent, re-enforce the steriotype that us "switchers" (at least the computer pros amoungst us) have to face each day when we mention that we use Macs...
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post #20 of 56
After visiting Apple's Leopard preview page, I'm already excited over two of the features; Time Machine and the collaboration enhancements in iChat, specifically the screen sharing. I have an external drive now that I use for back-ups, but I do it manually. Time Machine is going to be perfect for automating that for me. And I also use Remote Desktop to help my parents out when they need it. So yeah, I'm pretty excited.

I agree with some of the people on here though, Apple needs to get a visible demo commercial, so people can see how wonderful the OS is ... the problem is, a 30 second ad, is usually not enough time. The real problem is, OS X doesn't offer much more than Windows to your average home user. The only advantages are already discussed in their "PC/Mac" commercials.
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post #21 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

Sadly, those ads fail to advertise the Mac, they simply advertise the arrogence and elietisum of Apple and to a large extent, re-enforce the steriotype that us "switchers" (at least the computer pros amoungst us) have to face each day when we mention that we use Macs...

Agreed.

What Apple needs is cutting edge advertising that actually informs. Easier said than done in 30 seconds but hey that's what creativity is all about.
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post #22 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer

Sadly, those ads fail to advertise the Mac, they simply advertise the arrogence and elietisum of Apple and to a large extent, re-enforce the steriotype that us "switchers" (at least the computer pros amoungst us) have to face each day when we mention that we use Macs...

You could not be more wrong. Those simple ads with actors portraying computers have been extremely effective. For all of the handwringing about Apple's failure to promote all of the features in MacOS X, the most impressive feature to my Windows-using colleagues is its lack of viruses. The ad with the sneezing PC that is suffering from the latest virus really brings home the fact that Macs don't have viruses.
post #23 of 56
I think Wu is right - Apple will spend some extra time to boost Leopard up some. FIxes originally scheduled for 10.5.1 can go into 10.5.0 - and maybe and idea or two that was originally pushed back to 10.6. Throw in ideas and issues from developers who will have Leopard for testing and development and things get a bit interesting While Apple is not going to lay back and relax the extra time will be nice for us and frustrating for MS. They KNOW what Apple is doing with that extra time.
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post #24 of 56
Because MS doesn't build the hardware, they will need a significantly longer lead time from the time they go final build on Vista to actual OS on-box-on-the-shelves to satisfy the needs of Dell and HP, then Apple will need for Leopard.

So Apple could take advantage of that by waiting until Vista goes final before announcing the remainder of Leopard's features, and still beat Vista to the stores for consumers.
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post #25 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me

You could not be more wrong. Those simple ads with actors portraying computers have been extremely effective. For all of the handwringing about Apple's failure to promote all of the features in MacOS X, the most impressive feature to my Windows-using colleagues is its lack of viruses. The ad with the sneezing PC that is suffering from the latest virus really brings home the fact that Macs don't have viruses.

Agreed. And once Leopard ships, they could easily do such an ad about Mr. PC losing photos or music due to a hard drive failure, while the Mr. Mac talks about how he can go back in his Time Machine to retrieve it. Right out of the box.

Also, once Leopard ships, they could do an ad about Mr. PC getting help via confusing instructions over the phone from a friend, while Mr. Mac says his friend can give him help directly through iChat, but better yet his friend can share photos and presentations while chatting. Much more fun. Right out of the box.

And on and on...
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post #26 of 56
Now if this isn't a case for the opposites. Windows fans are yelling at M$ for delaying Vista and Apple fans are actually pushing for Leapord to be delayed.

LOL
post #27 of 56
This extra time to develop Leopard should be very benifitial.
post #28 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic

Yeah they should DEFINITELY do an ad showing all of Vista's features, then flash to a Mac, and show the equivalents in Tiger.

Sorta like...that movie with Bill Gates narrating Vista features but the video showing their equivalents in Tiger. In fact, I wish Apple could just air that shit. Seriously. That was fucking SWEET. AND, I think people would "get it." It'd be a fucking home run.

Let's fucking get rid of chiat/day with their "G5 blowing people through their wall" shit. What the fuck is Apple's Marketing Department's problem? These idiots definitely need to get back to Marketing 101. They haven't had a good ad since, well, 1984. Except the iPod ads.

Oh yeah, I can certainly agree with you on this one. Everytime we discuss Apple's Ads, that one is the one that drives me nuts. But, don't forget that Apple..uh, Jobs, has to decide to go with it. So he is just as much to blame.

MS has had better ads than Apple.
post #29 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg

I don't think Apple's Mac Marketing Department gets more than 10% of the funds that the iPod Marketing Department does. When was the last time you saw a Mac advert...?

lately? Too many times. These ads suck, big time!
post #30 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me

You could not be more wrong. Those simple ads with actors portraying computers have been extremely effective. For all of the handwringing about Apple's failure to promote all of the features in MacOS X, the most impressive feature to my Windows-using colleagues is its lack of viruses. The ad with the sneezing PC that is suffering from the latest virus really brings home the fact that Macs don't have viruses.

How do you know they have been effective? We used to do surveys after ads had run (along with the ones we did BEFORE the ads ran).

Have you seen any surveys showing that after having seen them, people went out and bought a Mac who wouldn't have previously? Or, at least, said that they were more likely to do so?

I haven't. Some people actually like the ads, but that's not the same thing.
post #31 of 56
Mac users are elitists? Sure Macs are perceived to be more expensive, and they have a small market-share. Studies shows that Mac users have on average a higher income and are more educated. I guess that the simple fact that I'm quoting studies like that could be interpreted as elitism.

But I rarely found any Mac users saying that it's a good thing in itself and that prices shouldn't be lower. I never saw a Mac user seriously defending Mac prices and market-share by saying that it's a good thing to keep Macs out of the hands of poor people.

On the other hand, Mac users have been repeating continually that Macs are easier to use, and that's a good thing for everyone. Pro-PC counter-arguments are that Macs are for dumb people, and run a dumbed down OS.

That's where I see the real computer elitism resides. We often hear PC proponents saying that if there is so much malware on Windows is that many people are dumb. Same reason is given to explain unstable and problematic Windows systems. There's no sign of this changing, I wouldn't call those people dumb, they are simply people that decided that they had better things to do in life than to learn about how Windows/computers work.

In the mean time, these Windows gurus make money on the back of "dumb" people, and/or appear as heroes saving their computer from evil malware.

But, these people don't like to be called dumb, and they are starting to figure out that maybe their PC techie friends don't want them to buy Macs because they like to act like a savior, and need to feel smarter by knowing how to fix a registry problem on their friend's computer.

Here's how the cycle is working for the Windows gurus:

1. Recommend a PC to their friends and family and/or build one for them.
2. Wait until they catch malware and/or screw something in Windows.
3. Save the day and make their friend feel inferior and dumb compared to them.
4. Repeat steps 1-4

Ok sorry that was out of topic.
post #32 of 56
Releasing Leopard same time with Vista is very effective way to promote OS X, that way every Vista review will turn to Vista/OS X comparison, OS X gets noted also in magazines that would not otherwise touch Mac subjects. Let Microsoft spend all the money to marketing and take a free ride with them. Of course Leopard has to be up to Vistas par or surpass it for that trick to work, but I wouldn't worry about that.
post #33 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by McHuman

Hi. I'm a Mac.

And I'm a PC.

...

Ah yes... It was late...

I've never actually seen one of those over here in the UK though.
post #34 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg

Ah yes... It was late...

I've never actually seen one of those over here in the UK though.

And you won't. Our laws don't allow these adverts. I believe it's only banks that are allowed to show comparisons to competitors because they can give absolute figures.
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post #35 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobius

Yeah, but what good is a 'streets-ahead' OS if you don't market it right, or at all come to that. Seriously, how many people outside the Mac bubble have even heard of OS X? And of the people that have, how many know what it has to offer...now. Nevermind about Leopard, does anyone outside of Macland know what they're missing RIGHT NOW?

I plead with you Mr Jobs, advertise the OS, before the boat sails past without you on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings

Mobius is right on. Until Apple puts Time Machine, iChat collaboration, Spaces, etc. on prime time TV, no one other than you and me and maybe someone else is gonna know what the hell OSX is all about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg

So do I, It would be great if apple advertised it as well. Just imagine, one minute you see an ad for Vista with all it's non-existant features, then next you see an ad with OS X's amazing qualities and features. It would be great!

I guess we'll be hitting OS X.4.10 soon!

I very much agree. I wish Apple would actually advertise OS X. The only people I know (in my circle) who know about OS X are close family and friends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Me

The ad with the sneezing PC that is suffering from the latest virus really brings home the fact that Macs don't have viruses.

What about the people who say the reason why Macs don't get viruses is because Macs have lower market share, and Windows has most?

Apple, please markey your products better.
post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005

Agreed. And once Leopard ships, they could easily do such an ad about Mr. PC losing photos or music due to a hard drive failure, while the Mr. Mac talks about how he can go back in his Time Machine to retrieve it. Right out of the box.

Also, once Leopard ships, they could do an ad about Mr. PC getting help via confusing instructions over the phone from a friend, while Mr. Mac says his friend can give him help directly through iChat, but better yet his friend can share photos and presentations while chatting. Much more fun. Right out of the box.

And on and on...

Better yet, they could poke fun at WGA and have Mr. PC trying to convince someone (Windows Update) that they are not pirated while trying to get an update, or while in the middle of a conversation with the Mac guy, call "home" to make sure he is valid.
post #37 of 56
I think Apple needs to start doing infomercials.
Instead of 30 second blurbs, 30 minutes of solid reasons why the Mac is better.
This would give them time to actually show the OS and demonstrate Apps. They could even give tutorials on how to use the iLife Apps.
They could also have Jonathan Ive talk about the design of the hardware.

During the show they could tell them to visit apple.com, call a 1-800 # or visit a local reseller to buy a Mac.
post #38 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by troberts

Better yet, they could poke fun at WGA and have Mr. PC trying to convince someone (Windows Update) that they are not pirated while trying to get an update, or while in the middle of a conversation with the Mac guy, call "home" to make sure he is valid.

Genius! Appy for a job w/ Apple marketing immediately!
post #39 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella

I think Apple needs to start doing infomercials.
Instead of 30 second blurbs, 30 minutes of solid reasons why the Mac is better.
This would give them time to actually show the OS and demonstrate Apps. They could even give tutorials on how to use the iLife Apps.
They could also have Jonathan Ive talk about the design of the hardware.

During the show they could tell them to visit apple.com, call a 1-800 # or visit a local reseller to buy a Mac.

OMG you weren't around in the early/mid 90's were you? Think Performa. Think the 'dark days' just prior to Steve's return... Shudder I still have nightmares... Have a look at some of these links and pray nobody ever tries this again. No matter what that hawthornedirect.com page says (link below) that was Apple at the VERY bottom.

"The Martinetis Get a Computer" was the title of the infomercial.

Found this description:

Quote:
The commercial was basically a dad who doubted his family would actually use a computer, but agreeing to buy it on the condition that they all had to show him how useful it was over the course of a week or month or something. Even grandpa got involved by e-mailing his new girlfriend, who put in an appearance at the end of the infomercial. So dad was convinced, and they kept the computer.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~johnr/apple.html
http://www.hawthornedirect.com/caseS...e_studies.html

Okay maybe I'm going overboard with how bad it was but Apple and infomercials just don't do it for me... Visions of bad actors and juicers and knives that can cut cans and "Ronco Hair In A Can" and oh make the visions stop, please make them stop...

Dave
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post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

How do you know they have been effective? We used to do surveys after ads had run (along with the ones we did BEFORE the ads ran).

Have you seen any surveys showing that after having seen them, people went out and bought a Mac who wouldn't have previously? Or, at least, said that they were more likely to do so?

I haven't. Some people actually like the ads, but that's not the same thing.

This is easy. I have been around awhile, seen things, and learned from them. In my experience, ordinary Windows users will see the ease at which quality work can be produced on the Mac. They will then go right back to their sticks and stones, dismissing the Mac as borderline magic. Others clearly are intimidated by the fact that the Mac minimizes the barrier between its users and what they want to do. Of the more sophisticated colleagues, my most memorable is extremely proficient in Windows. She gets it that the Mac allows her to produce quality work with less effort. However, she repeats the mantra that the Mac is more expensive. When I told her that the Mac has no viruses, I got her attention in a good way. As for the this latest Apple ad campaign, I just didn't get it. I thought that it was juvenile. That is, I thought so until I walked in on a bunch of Windows-preferring university students in a computer lab. They were actually talking about the virus commercial. They believed it. It made them more favorably disposed to the Mac. I have never seen any commercial for any product or service ever get such an immediate positive response as this Apple ad.
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