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Isn't it time for a plain old Macintosh again? - Page 5

post #161 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by technohermit

You guys are all correct. BTW, what ver happened to the 1.6 Ghz PM G5?

Excellent first post

We are all correct? Some of us think there's need/room for a cheaper tower than the mac pro, some of us don't. We can't all be right.

The 1.6 GHz PM G5 has been discussed and it was pointed out that it was a rip-off and that is why it did not sell well. Part of the high cost was due to the fact that Apple didn't bother developing a smaller tower, they just used the expensive, oversized PM enclosure. Another problem was lack of processor diversity available for Apple to use. Now that the processor diversity problem is obviated, it is much easier to justify the development of an enclosure and motherboard separate from the Mac Pro. Such a machine could start at a much lower price ($999) and offer good price/performance ratio.
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post #162 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H

We can't all be right.

The 1.6 GHz PM G5 has been discussed and it was pointed out that it was a rip-off and that is why it did not sell well. Part of the high cost was due to the fact that Apple didn't bother developing a smaller tower, they just used the expensive, oversized PM enclosure. Another problem was lack of processor diversity available for Apple to use. Now that the processor diversity problem is obviated, it is much easier to justify the development of an enclosure and motherboard separate from the Mac Pro. Such a machine could start at a much lower price ($999) and offer good price/performance ratio.

He 's a believer in Neitze.
As for Apple and the elusive mid-range tower, it all comes down to will. The components are there and at the right price points. It sure seems like there is demand as well. Obviously somebody in a decision making position knows someting we don't.
post #163 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy

Not so. There are, and there have been, Windows AIOs. They don't sell well in he Windows world, where customers actually have a choice in the mid price range. In the Mac world, however, customers do not have this choice and today must buy an iMac, or shell out the bucks for a Mac Pro. Since I believe people are not all that different, Windows user versus Mac users, the preference for a mini tower over an AIO would be about the same, given a choice.

You're reference to laptops selling well is indeed true, but the discussion happens to be about desktop computers here.


hmmm...... so are you saying that when iMac was introduced years ago, the only reason it began, and continued to sell so well is that all the mid-range Mac towers suddenly and mysteriously vanished from existance?

The primary appeal that I, myself, have always seen for the iMac is that they aleviate the torments of PCdom. The more expandable a computer is the more things can go wrong with it. The iMac is a toaster. And it wurks gud.
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post #164 of 1658
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post #165 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn


hmmm...... so are you saying that when iMac was introduced years ago, . . .

No, I'm talking about today. Quote: ". . . customers do not have this choice and today must buy an iMac, or shell out the bucks for a Mac Pro."

Quote:
The primary appeal that I, myself, have always seen for the iMac is that they aleviate the torments of PCdom. The more expandable a computer is the more things can go wrong with it. The iMac is a toaster. And it wurks gud.

I'm glad you like it. It's a good machine, but not what I want. I'm one of those guys who really does use PCI slots.
post #166 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy

No, I'm talking about today. Quote: ". . . customers do not have this choice and today must buy an iMac, or shell out the bucks for a Mac Pro."



I'm glad you like it. It's a good machine, but not what I want. I'm one of those guys who really does use PCI slots.

Regarding '...today...', have the iMacs not been selling very well up till now, when previously there were, in fact, mid-range towers? Why would that change now, if we were to have a midrange tower available? Intel?

I as because it sounds like you're saying, "AIO don't sell well in the Windows world because there is the option of midrange towers, and if such an option were available from Apple, iMac would likewise suffer." That really doesn't make total sense, since iMac has been selling very well even up to the recent past even when there WAS such an option available from Apple. So... that doesn't quite make sense, unless you mean that by switching to Intel, it would change the whole dynamic (ha ha, I used a buzz word!) of the situation. I really doubt it would, but I won't asert that since I have no way of really knowing.

As to using PCI slots: Me too. I'd be very unlikely to buy an iMac for that very reason. I meant the comment as an observation of the iMac's virtues, rather than a proclamation of adoration. . It's the ugly tradeoff between ease of use and expandability. Sometimes I want nothing more than a stable box that will do what I need when I need it (this applies to laptops too) and other times (especially when the trigger finger is itchen, or the HD is getting full) I care most about expandability... hmm, maybe I should just get both a MBP and a MP and call it a night. <sigh> I hate being broke.
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post #167 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

. . . it sounds like you're saying, "AIO don't sell well in the Windows world because there is the option of midrange towers, and if such an option were available from Apple, iMac would likewise suffer."

I think I see how I confused the issue. No, I believe that iMac sales would not suffer too much from a mid range mini tower. Rather, the big effect would be increased sales of desktops. I believe the mini towers would out sell the iMacs by 2 to 1, that's my guess. To guess again maybe iMac sales would drop 10 to 20 percent.

Quote:
. . . have the iMacs not been selling very well up till now, when previously there were, in fact, mid-range towers? Why would that change now, if we were to have a midrange tower available? Intel?

Going back in history is harder. I think the iMac was a lower end product back then, a G3 for quite a while. The towers were in a relatively higher price range. The mini tower we are talking about today is in the same price range as the iMac.
post #168 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS

Wow, what a great rebuttal. I'm utterly convinced by that.

There may have once been a market for non-expandable desktop machines, but nowadays those customers are increasingly going for laptops instead. If what you're getting is functionally equivalent to a laptop anyway, why not just get a laptop and have that portability?

Let me try to explain this in a way that you might understand. Now I know that there are a bunch of people who insist that any analogy automatically sucks if it has a car in it. To those people I say just bear with me for a minute, okay? Try to listen to what I have to say, and maybe even understand it.

Suppose you have a well-beloved car company with a fanatical user base. This car company offers a wide range of automobiles, until one day when they decide to offer only these choices: 1) a cheap, tiny, Smart Car-like vehicle (yes, I know that real Smart Cars aren't that cheap. Bear with me for a moment) which is very efficient but has no frills, no luxuries, a V4 engine, and no cargo space or passenger space to speak of (Mac mini), 2) a mid-range sports car with lots of creature comforts, great handling and speed, but still no cargo space or passenger space (iMac), and 3) a massive, Hummer-sized tank with a V10 engine, way more space than most people would ever need, terrible fuel economy, tons of really expensive luxuries including built-in entertainment systems and everything, and costing the price of a small house.

Now, consider your average Joe customer. He's not rich, but he has maybe a couple of kids that he needs to drive to school and back, so he needs a car with a back seat, which neither the Smart car nor the sports car have, and maybe he wants to go to the grocery store once in a while to buy food and other generic supplies. Is he going to mortgage his house just to be able to afford the Hummer, or is he going to go buy a normal freaking car from one of the company's competitors? And what would this mean for the company? Ultimately, this company would have a low market share made up primarily of 1) the most basic users who don't need anything more than what the lowest-end car offers, and 2) their existing fanatical enthusiast user base, who will either a) just suck it up and buy the Hummer to get access to basic abilities that the competitors offer in normal cars costing less than our company's mid-range sports car, or b) settle for the sports car, install a spoiler on it, and just force the kids to sit on the back of the car and hang onto the spoiler real tight. Of course, some of these enthusiasts are going to get fed up and go to the competition, causing a gradual dwindling in market share, and the company's not going to gain much market share, because the other car companies' users are going to be turned off by the lack of features in the first two models that they can get from the other guys for a tiny percentage of the price of the Hummer. If this car company would offer a normal, non-huge car with a little non-monstrous amount of space, for a reasonable price, a lot of the other guys' customers might actually be able to buy one instead of only being tempted.

Look at Apple's recent market share gains - I'll bet that most of those gains are attributable to laptops, the one market segment where none of this matters. Apple's desktop machines haven't sold all that well for some time now. The reason is that Apple doesn't deliver what people expect in a desktop machine. Sometimes you just want a normal freaking car.

Computers are not cars. Most consumers don't go out looking for a PC that they will be able to upgrade. Does your neighbour say I really like the iMac but its just to difficult to upgrade the thing. I bet not. Most consumers don't want computers that they can modify they want them to just work.
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post #169 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja_Monkey

Computers are not cars. Most consumers don't go out looking for a PC that they will be able to upgrade. Does your neighbour say I really like the iMac but its just to difficult to upgrade the thing. I bet not. Most consumers don't want computers that they can modify they want them to just work.

Though it would be nice for Conroe chips and a more choices for graphics cards in the iMac
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post #170 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac

He 's a believer in Neitze.
...Obviously somebody in a decision making position knows someting we don't.

I wouldn't count on it, look at the Cube which would have sold really well but for the price. As I recall another good example is the CD burner, which Apple held off putting in their computers for quite a while. The Death of the CRT was another example, but they kept the eMac with a CRT around for the public and education for quite a while after the death of the CRT was anounced for Apple

In other industries look at GM, a lot of high paid execs to make decisions and where are they today? For that matter add Ford in and Chyrsler in there as well, a day late and a dollar short on the offering more fuel effecient cars and hybrids. Another good example is the "New Coke", Pepsi had some flops as well, and those were market tested a lot more than any Mac ever has been before their release.

They don't have a crystal ball, and all their experience, training, and research can still come up with a compleat flop, or keep them from offering a product that would sell like the iPod. It's a gamble, the best that you can hope for is that you won't loose too much money trying to convince the consumer to buy your product.
post #171 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja_Monkey

Computers are not cars. Most consumers don't go out looking for a PC that they will be able to upgrade. Does your neighbour say I really like the iMac but its just to difficult to upgrade the thing. I bet not. Most consumers don't want computers that they can modify they want them to just work.

Most consumers (who are not "Geeks") don't know what they want in a computer. They buy on advice from friends, co-workers, and salesmen as well as what they are comfortable with. Apple has to "Sell" the switch to them, and one of the selling points has been ease of use and fewer wires. Plug in 3 wires, start the computer, launch the set-up program 15 minutes till the internet. That is the benefit of the iMac, but as you can tell from the opinions on these boards this does not work for everyone, and having the only other options offered by Apple a low-performance model without expansion or a workstation eleminates a lot of potential customers, both consumer and buisiness, who are looking for a something that is not an AIO model but don't want or need to spend over $2000 on a workstation.

Also, there are other reasons to want the "expansion" than the desire to swap out video cards every 6 months. If you have a free slot and your built in network or USB controller goes out (and your warrenty has run out) then it's a lot easier and less expensive to drop in a PCI card and configure it than it is to bring it in to the closest authorized Mac repair shop and have them fix the problem (or worse yet shipping it to Apple because there isn't a shop local that you can have it fixed at) or to just go out and buy a new computer.
post #172 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by @homenow

If you have a free slot and your built in network or USB controller goes out (and your warrenty has run out) then it's a lot easier and less expensive to drop in a PCI card and configure it than it is to bring it in to the closest authorized Mac repair shop and have them fix the problem (or worse yet shipping it to Apple because there isn't a shop local that you can have it fixed at) or to just go out and buy a new computer.

Most home users don't think about stuff like this. If the computer breaks, it goes to the shop. If it costs a lot to fix, we buy a new one. They wouldn't consider self repair. One of the hurdles for home users with upgrading is that they barely understand where the plugs go. Joe Average would take the computer to a Geek Squad guy for the upgrades, and get charged $50 for 30 minutes of the guy's time. That's why they don't upgrade much. They sure wouldn't do an "upgrade-to-repair" thing.
post #173 of 1658
Ha ha, more or less off topic post here. I was in Best Buy yesterday looking at the MBP15, when I happened to overhear a salesman telling a lady about a wintel laptop. I think the exact words he used were, "... and it comes with Windows XP so you don't have to worry about that..." I really should have stopped him and scolded him for giving her false hopes.
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post #174 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

Most home users don't think about stuff like this. If the computer breaks, it goes to the shop. If it costs a lot to fix, we buy a new one. They wouldn't consider self repair. One of the hurdles for home users with upgrading is that they barely understand where the plugs go. Joe Average would take the computer to a Geek Squad guy for the upgrades, and get charged $50 for 30 minutes of the guy's time. That's why they don't upgrade much. They sure wouldn't do an "upgrade-to-repair" thing.

You are likely correct, but many of us have friends who know a lot more than we do, and we don't hesitate to ask their advice.


More importantly, business IT folks are vary aware of the advantages of PCI cards, and business is a huge customer. I don't believe Apple is ignoring this segment of computer buyers. To me, it looks like Apple's business strategy is to first offer the small 1U rack servers and begin competing there. Next you can bet it is the office desktop computer. I'm sure the iMac will make its way into offices and reception desks, but to get the attention of most IT folks, it will take something 'like' a mini tower.

It could be something none of us are expecting -- a somewhat different format that especially appeals to business, but is also a good product for the home. Maybe that's too much dreaming, but a mini tower would certainly be okay.

Now let's review the advantages of an expandable computer.

Upgrade: easily add new graphics card or new I/O. When USB2 became available I simply added a four port PCI card to my PowerMac.

New Capability: add new features or I/O. Add 24-bit pro audio or a midi board to a music workstation, without adding more cords and clutter.

Repair: already mentioned by @homenow.

Ease of Maintenance: the computer case opens easily, making upgrade and such relatively simple.
post #175 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy

You are likely correct, but many of us have friends who know a lot more than we do, and we don't hesitate to ask their advice.


More importantly, business IT folks are vary aware of the advantages of PCI cards, and business is a huge customer. I don't believe Apple is ignoring this segment of computer buyers. To me, it looks like Apple's business strategy is to first offer the small 1U rack servers and begin competing there. Next you can bet it is the office desktop computer. I'm sure the iMac will make its way into offices and reception desks, but to get the attention of most IT folks, it will take something 'like' a mini tower.

It could be something none of us are expecting -- a somewhat different format that especially appeals to business, but is also a good product for the home. Maybe that's too much dreaming, but a mini tower would certainly be okay.

Now let's review the advantages of an expandable computer.

Upgrade: easily add new graphics card or new I/O. When USB2 became available I simply added a four port PCI card to my PowerMac.

New Capability: add new features or I/O. Add 24-bit pro audio or a midi board to a music workstation, without adding more cords and clutter.

Repair: already mentioned by @homenow.

Ease of Maintenance: the computer case opens easily, making upgrade and such relatively simple.

top iMac, base configuration: $1699
MacPro, base configuration: $2499

I've heard it said, "Nature abhores a vacuum."

just thought I'd mention it in that specific way.
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post #176 of 1658
Oh - I'm not denying that I wouldn't like PCIe expansion at all. It's just my experience that with the exception of geeks (no offense. I'm including myself in that), few people bother with aftermarket upgrades a year or two down the line. Home users will wait as long as possible, then re-buy. IT departments tend to phase out a few computers every year. At my school and where I work this summer, they have four year plans. They replace a quarter of the computers yearly. That tends to be more popular than partial upgrades every two years, especially since the computers tend to be basic machines anways.

Again, I'm not denying that I like PCIe slots, I'm just saying that for most people, it's not a deal breaker. Obviously excepting geeks, gamers, and professionals.
post #177 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

. . . At my school and where I work this summer, they have four year plans. They replace a quarter of the computers yearly.

Just wondering, do they replace the displays too? I was curious how an iMac would fit into this replacement plan, since the display is part of it. I think the old CRT iMacs and eMacs were fairly popular in schools though.
post #178 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy

Just wondering, do they replace the displays too? I was curious how an iMac would fit into this replacement plan, since the display is part of it. I think the old CRT iMacs and eMacs were fairly popular in schools though.

I don't know. My school has G4 iMacs (and a few B&Ws) in a few labs in libraries, and G5s in production labs. They also use a few eMacs in the libraries. The PCs look like they have new-ish monitors, so I think they might replace them.

At work, it looks like the monitors stay past the computer's lifespan, as some of the monitors look ancient, but some look newer.
post #179 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecking

Pointing out this fact has never been useful, correct or fair.

Apple is essentially a boutique company with boutique computers and a boutique OS.

No other manufacturer offers what apple does period.

Not Dell, not HP, not Microsoft.

Apple offers 5 computer models. Five.

It's just not possible to have high market share, even if they added a new tower making 6 computers.
...<snip car analogy>...
A mid-range tower can't and won't suddenly make a huge paradigm shift.


We agree then. One man's boutique is another man's niche.

Problem is that Apple executives have stated they wish to increase market share. Offering a mid range to upper end consumer desktop would give them a much greater chance of gaining market share. No one here has indicated Apple should get into the low end.

And, I at least don't expect "a huge paradigm shift". What I did mention was the possibility of doubling market share to 10% by capturing a larger %'age of the upper end consumer(read profitable) market.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #180 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecking

I used to be one of those guys and here's your fundamental flaw:

MAC VS WINDOWS

Not tower vs mini or tower vs AIO

because...here and say it with me...THERE IS NO WINDOWS EQUIVALENT.

Some ugly 15" POS Gateway or massive 17" VIAO is not the same.

HP slim PC is not the same as a mini and actually believe it or not reviewed quite well and sold quite well, I know I sold them.

If dell offered an imac clone and still towers we might have something to compare.

If dell offered a mimi clone and still towers we might have something to compare.

They don't. No one does.

Oh and to answer your original question: LAPTOPS, LAPTOPS, LAPTOPS.

Ugly is in the eye of the beholder. Upon introduction both the previous generation iMac(iLamp if you will) and the current iMac have had their fair share of criticisms for their looks(a la the big chin for the current model)

AOpen offers a Mac mini clone that is virtually identical and AOpen is hardly a boutique company.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #181 of 1658
ok, guys, maybe yall missed this the first time I posted it, so I'll throw it up there again.

http://www.geocities.com/celemourn/headlessmac.jpg

Think it's funny huh? Well this one is for real:

http://www.geocities.com/celemourn/for-real.jpg

Anyone can get this. and that is the regular price, not the educational discount. Gets cheeper with edu pricing for those in school.

the MacPro does NOT cost $2499. Period. Might I remind everyone that it is downright goofy to buy loads of RAM and bigger HDs from the computer manufacturer? They get a LOT of profit from upgrades. With the MacPro, there's really no excuse for having Apple preconfigure it unless you are getting a LOT of them and just don't want the hassle.
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post #182 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by technohermit

You guys are all correct. BTW, what ever happened to the 1.6 Ghz PM G5?

I was basically neutered. Slower bus than the other towers, PCI not PCI x can't remember what else. And it was priced the same as the iMac. So you could get an iMac with fundamentally teh same specification at the same price with a nice monitor or a castrated tower, not a good deal.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #183 of 1658
heh heh, speaking of AIO,

This is fun ---> http://tam.axon.net/



*edit* ha, wish I had a wad of spare cash. there's a TAM on ebay for 999ish.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #184 of 1658
Hello, and sorry for my poor english,

I'm computer programmer working all days with Windows, and some 6 years ago, I decided when I came home I wanted some computer wich didn't give me troubles, so I bought a iMac DVD 400.
Today he is ok, my duaghter use it, and she can do a lot withc him.

When iMac G5 20' came out, I decided to buy one. Rev. A, a bit noisy cause front of me and not under the table, but a beautiful machine. Only one problem : grahic card suck !!! FX5200 was almost a low-level graphic card when it came out.
This is really a problem cause I have a great computer, wich I could use 5 years more without problems, and I can't change the graphic card.
And here is the real problem : I do a lot with my computer, including some games. Mostly MMORPG and flight simulators. Both games without equivalents with game console and I don't have TV, so ...
So I have a beautiful computer with a 20' screen, a beautiful OS, but I should play games in 800*600 resolution, without details ?
I have a beautiful computer, but I should need to buy a PC only because I like to play some games ?

And now, Mac is proposing BootCamp.
OK, this is great for professionnal, but many peoples, I included, are interested in BootCamp for an other
reason. With it, it is possible to do what Mac does not make very weel, and the only thing Windows does well : playing game.

But now a problem ... Mac don't propose any computer wich allow you to play computers games.
I want a 2 GB memory, 250 GB HD, 250 HD (perhaps 500 GB) and my graphics card.

A fully equiped Mini cost as much as an iMac (20') without all performances of an iMac (and grahic card is really bad).

An iMac has all I want, but has some kind of low-level mid-range graphic card I can't change. It would cost me 3'200.-- CHF (Swiss Francs).

The only mac wich has a decent graphic card and the ability to change it is the Mac Pro, wich would cost me 5'800.-- CHF, almost the double price (cause I need to buy a 20' screen). For ths. I would have to much power (I could handle this) and extensions capacities I will never use.

I really not sure I understand what Apple will do with BootCamp.
I'm really not sure anyone else as peoples wich are at ease with computer want to change for Mac in using BootCamp, cause peoples wich are not a ease with won't try a double OS.
And peoples wich are at ease with computers are mostly young peoples, and many young peoples like games. And the only thing they can say about a Mac is "It sucks" and they are right. Cause with a PC you can do everything. With a Mac, you can only do almost everything.

Mini are overpriced and unusable for games, iMac can't handle most hit games and it will be unable to handle the game wich come next year, and Mac Pro are far to much for this.
OK, playing is not a good idea ? This mean I must go back to PC to allow me to do this too.

So yes, something between could be a good idea.
A good Dell computer allowing game would cost me half-way between iMac and Mac Pro.
And I would really like a downsized Mac Pro at the same price. Really. And many peoples I know wich are using PC would be far more intersted too.
Most peoples change 3 things in their computer : memory, hard disk and graphic card.

PS : I agree too with the idea of an iMac withc a PCI 16x porte and double room for large graphic card (X1900XT). In that case, the iMac would really be great, but I'm really afraid for the graphic card of next iMac. A G7300 ???
RePS : And if I'm not a geek, I would prefear to buy manufacturer equipment, such as memory ...
post #185 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by @homenow

........
Also, there are other reasons to want the "expansion" than the desire to swap out video cards every 6 months. If you have a free slot and your built in network or USB controller goes out (and your warrenty has run out) then it's a lot easier and less expensive to drop in a PCI card and configure it than it is to bring it in to the closest authorized Mac repair shop and have them fix the problem (or worse yet shipping it to Apple because there isn't a shop local that you can have it fixed at) or to just go out and buy a new computer.

Agreed. To add, I had a 7500 that didn't even have USB nor Firewire. Bought a PCI card and I was in business. Sonnet G4, external firewire drive, Final Cut Express mmmmmm. And I am not a geek. I don't like messing with computers, but Apple's pricing model excluded me from the Tower goodness. I paid $89 for the 7500, and built a computer I could afford to do my humble home movies.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #186 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

Oh - I'm not denying that I wouldn't like PCIe expansion at all. It's just my experience that with the exception of geeks (no offense. I'm including myself in that), few people bother with aftermarket upgrades a year or two down the line. ....

Except for the fact that many people upgrade the innards(usually the video card, quite often teh harddrive) at the time of purchase, which is not an option with the iMac.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #187 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag


We agree then. One man's boutique is another man's niche.

Problem is that Apple executives have stated they wish to increase market share. Offering a mid range to upper end consumer desktop would give them a much greater chance of gaining market share. No one here has indicated Apple should get into the low end.

And, I at least don't expect "a huge paradigm shift". What I did mention was the possibility of doubling market share to 10% by capturing a larger %'age of the upper end consumer(read profitable) market.

Apple can (and may) increase market share only in it's niches. If Apple got 20% of the laptop market, or doubled it's share in the pro field (because of Mac Pro aggressive pricing), that'd give Apple a huge profit boost and a good bit of marketshare.

I don't deny that an xMac can increase marketshare (and probably would), I'm just saying it isn't essential to increasing marketshare.
post #188 of 1658
Just for fun here's a couple of links.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...Tab=0&NoMapp=0
Core2 Duo 1.86Ghz
1.0GB DDR2 533 (PC2-4200) ram up to 8.0GB
DVD±RW Dual Layer
PCI-Express Video Card ATI RADEON X300SE 128MB Memory
6 USB Ports\t
1 Firewire Port
2 PCI slots
3 PCI express slots.
Media Center remote control

$899.99

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...Tab=0&NoMapp=0
Core2 Duo 2.40GHz
1.0GB\tDDR2 800 (PC2-6400) ram up to 8.0GB
DVD±RW Dual Layer
PCI-Express Video Card ATI Radeon X1600 Pro
6 USB Ports\t
1 Firewire Port
2 PCI slots
3 PCI express slots.
Media Center remote control

$1299.99

Would I buy either of them, no, they run Windows. Could Apple offer computers similar in a similar price range in a much better package and make a nice profit? I bet so. I bet they could design an unbelievable package. They would sell gazillions of these. Well, maybe not gazillions, but certainly quite a few.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
Reply
post #189 of 1658
More shorter as my precendent message :

Has Switching + Bootcamp any sense without a mini-tower ?
post #190 of 1658
2 Mac's: Mac and MacBook
2 configs each: Home and Pro and you jest go from there.
there're are too many other configs to list
post #191 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag

Just for fun here's a couple of links.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...Tab=0&NoMapp=0
Core2 Duo 1.86Ghz
1.0GB DDR2 533 (PC2-4200) ram up to 8.0GB
DVD±RW Dual Layer
PCI-Express Video Card ATI RADEON X300SE 128MB Memory
6 USB Ports\t
1 Firewire Port
2 PCI slots
3 PCI express slots.
Media Center remote control

$899.99

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...Tab=0&NoMapp=0
Core2 Duo 2.40GHz
1.0GB\tDDR2 800 (PC2-6400) ram up to 8.0GB
DVD±RW Dual Layer
PCI-Express Video Card ATI Radeon X1600 Pro
6 USB Ports\t
1 Firewire Port
2 PCI slots
3 PCI express slots.
Media Center remote control

$1299.99

Would I buy either of them, no, they run Windows. Could Apple offer computers similar in a similar price range in a much better package and make a nice profit? I bet so. I bet they could design an unbelievable package. They would sell gazillions of these. Well, maybe not gazillions, but certainly quite a few.

<inhales deeply> ahhhh, the fresh smell of $15 enclosures! takes me back to the Yongsan Electronics Market in Seoul, South Korea!

Let us not forget that if you know what you're doing, you can ALWAYS build a comp for much less than you can buy one. That's why I built my current PC five years ago. I've been upgrading it progressively since it's birth, and I can still manage to play the newest games on it, despite it's having a 1.4 P4 (socket 423, for those who know what it is) and only 512 MB of RAM.

And let me make clear at this point that I'll NEVER build my own pc from scratch again.

I've had nothing but trouble from this thing, partly due to windows, but mostly due to stupid little conflicts that occur between components that were only designed to work togeather in a very general sort of way. The wonderful advantage that Mac users have is that Apple VERY THOROUGHLY tests all of it's computers before releasing them to make sure that they work smoothly.

Remember, "Practice Safe HEX, and Avoid Computer Viruses Today!" (seen on a t-shirt from thinkgeek.com)
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #192 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

Apple can (and may) increase market share only in it's niches. If Apple got 20% of the laptop market, or doubled it's share in the pro field (because of Mac Pro aggressive pricing), that'd give Apple a huge profit boost and a good bit of marketshare.

I don't deny that an xMac can increase marketshare (and probably would), I'm just saying it isn't essential to increasing marketshare.

I don't disagree with this at all. It is a matter of degrees. How much market share, how quickly. The mid to upper end of the consumer market is still a niche market, but a much larger niche than they currently address with their product mix. Maybe here we see the difference between boutique and niche .
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
Reply
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
Reply
post #193 of 1658
<Sighs dejectedly and quits posting since everyone is ignoring his posts> The ADHD made me do it! I swear!

<and, yes, you are SUPPOSED to ignore THIS one. :P>
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #194 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

<inhales deeply> ahhhh, the fresh smell of $15 enclosures! takes me back to the Yongsan Electronics Market in Seoul, South Korea!

Let us not forget that if you know what you're doing, you can ALWAYS build a comp for much less than you can buy one. That's why I built my current PC five years ago. I've been upgrading it progressively since it's birth, and I can still manage to play the newest games on it, despite it's having a 1.4 P4 (socket 423, for those who know what it is) and only 512 MB of RAM.

And let me make clear at this point that I'll NEVER build my own pc from scratch again.

I've had nothing but trouble from this thing, partly due to windows, but mostly due to stupid little conflicts that occur between components that were only designed to work togeather in a very general sort of way. The wonderful advantage that Mac users have is that Apple VERY THOROUGHLY tests all of it's computers before releasing them to make sure that they work smoothly.

Remember, "Practice Safe HEX, and Avoid Computer Viruses Today!" (seen on a t-shirt from thinkgeek.com)

Er, um, these models come built, I think. Proudly assembled in the USA. No mus no fus, just order and a few days later it arrives at your door.

Also, the point of the links was not to suggest that Apple build clones of these, but that they could offer similarly spec.'d products or this might be a starting point for the spec.'s of an Apple designed machine in these approximate price ranges. I apologize if I didn't make this clear in my earlier post.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
Reply
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
Reply
post #195 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag

Er, um, these models come built, I think. Proudly assembled in the USA. No mus no fus, just order and a few days later it arrives at your door.

Also, the point of the links was not to suggest that Apple build clones of these, but that they could offer similarly spec.'d products or this might be a starting point for the spec.'s of an Apple designed machine in these approximate price ranges. I apologize if I didn't make this clear in my earlier post.


sorry, didn't make clear what point I was trying to make. The components used in these boxes are very likely (read: almost certainly) picked because they are the cheapest ones of reasonable quality which meet the spec. requirements. meaning that they are more of a mish-mash than a computer made by Dell, Gateway, Apple or other major manufacturers would be. Its the same degree and quality of integration that I would get if I were to go read a bunch of articles on all the current tech, then go out and build a comp. piecmeal again, the way I did when I was in Korea. These are Cheap, reasonably powerful, and look like good buys, but, in my experience, which is not necessarily representative of reality, you end up paying a price in hassel and mental anguish in the long run. On my WindowsXP tower (what the original ME box mutated into after a plethora of upgrades) I have always had to reformat the hard drive on average every 3-6 months. Pretty much anytime I want to do something different, like, say, add a midi keyboard and midi sequencing software, I have to reinstall everything from scratch and remove nearly all the old software I had on it. Otherwise it WON"T WORK. Thats what I was referring to. as you can see, I am particularly skilled at confusing people.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #196 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

...
The components used in these boxes are very likely (read: almost certainly) picked because they are the cheapest ones of reasonable quality which meet the spec. requirements. ...

You maybe right, I don't know, I've never built a computer from scratch.

But, it uses
Intel cpu
Intel D975XBX motherboard based on Intel® 975X Express Chipset
supports Intel® Viiv technology
ATI video card

Seems like they use mostly Intel components that should be very reliable. But still, this isn't the point. Point is Apple, should be able to provide a reliable, mid to upper end consumer desktop with similar spec's and make a very good profit.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
Reply
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
Reply
post #197 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag

You maybe right, I don't know, I've never built a computer from scratch.

But, it uses
Intel cpu
Intel D975XBX motherboard based on Intel® 975X Express Chipset
supports Intel® Viiv™ technology
ATI video card

Seems like they use mostly Intel components that should be very reliable. But still, this isn't the point. Point is Apple, should be able to provide a reliable, mid to upper end consumer desktop with similar spec's and make a very good profit.

<nod> going with one manufacturer does tend to elmiminate problems. However, my box has:

Intel D850GB mobo
Intel P4 1.4GHz
I think Samsung RAMBUS RAM
Maxtor 60GB hd
LiteOn DVDR@)(&%)_@#*$(* whatever
have gone through 2 Samsung DVD/CD-RW combo drives, both died,
MSI DVD ROM drive
Iomega Zip drive
NO floppy drive, thankyou very much,
and various other components from reputable manufacturers.

So even having normally HQ hardware doesn't garuntee that everything will go smoothly.

Course, I can't count out the possibility that all my problems are due to PEBKAC, but I tend to think not. Specially when I see other people in computer labs getting violent with the PCs too.

And I'm sure that Apple could come out with an excelent box at a reasonable price. I'll not enter that debate. I think it would likely be quite a bit more than those examples though, due to Apple's nit-picking nature in regards to hardware design. Being anal-retentive necessarily restricts one from taking advantage of the best deals. Also, remember that its just plain goofy to sell something if there isn't much profit to be made (unless you're Walmart and you enjoy inducing stampeeds on the day after christmas, that is. )
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #198 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag

You maybe right, I don't know, I've never built a computer from scratch.

But, it uses
Intel cpu
Intel D975XBX motherboard based on Intel® 975X Express Chipset
supports Intel® Viiv technology
ATI video card

Seems like they use mostly Intel components that should be very reliable. But still, this isn't the point. Point is Apple, should be able to provide a reliable, mid to upper end consumer desktop with similar spec's and make a very good profit.

<Bangs fist on table in agreement.>
post #199 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

ok, guys, maybe yall missed this the first time I posted it, so I'll throw it up there again.

http://www.geocities.com/celemourn/headlessmac.jpg

Think it's funny huh? Well this one is for real:

http://www.geocities.com/celemourn/for-real.jpg

Anyone can get this. and that is the regular price, not the educational discount. Gets cheeper with edu pricing for those in school.

the MacPro does NOT cost $2499. Period. Might I remind everyone that it is downright goofy to buy loads of RAM and bigger HDs from the computer manufacturer? They get a LOT of profit from upgrades. With the MacPro, there's really no excuse for having Apple preconfigure it unless you are getting a LOT of them and just don't want the hassle.

A couple things here
1. You may be rich, but $2100 is a lot of money to spend on a computer.
2. It's a PROFESSIONAL WORKSTATION, not a desktop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinglewood

More shorter as my precendent message :

Has Switching + Bootcamp any sense without a mini-tower ?

Not really. You're just appealing the 4% who already use Macs and those with similar tastes. Despite what many around here think, Mac users do not have the majority opinion.
post #200 of 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn

the MacPro does NOT cost $2499. Period.

So? $2124 is still 266% of $799, which is the price of Apple's next cheapest headless desktop machine.
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
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it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
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