Mac mini shortage suggests product changes - Page 2

based on when the MacBook was released October/November is a reasonable time framer for an update though it could come sooner if Apple is aggressive with their updates.

I think someone else was running the company...

Apple can't keep up with current Macbook demand. There's no way they'll rev it when it's already selling faster than they can make them. There'd be weeks of back-order (which is a lot worse for consumer machines than pro machines, since people buy consumer machines when they need them, as opposed to having a current pro machine laying around).

The thing similar out now is the Quadroplex (note I said similar) and it costs a fortune (partially because of the 2-4 Quadros). Bandwidth is the issue. You'd have to move x8-type bandwidth (like 2 Gbps or so), which is the equal of every other external port on the Mini. You might squeeze along with 1 Gbps (the equal of 4 PCIe lanes). Still - it's a massive bandwidth issue.

I was actually thinking in terms of the industry as a whole, rather than just apple. But yeah, diferent helmsman.

Definitely will have to look into this.
Thanks!

For full integration, it would need more than that. you also don't want to run more than one HD off a firewire bus.

The connector I mean would have much of that functionality.

Seems like there would be less to worry about on that front with the 2.5" drives the Mac Mini uses.

Yes, though that's another cable or two.

I think the best thing that can happen for a media Mac is that it goes to the ~17" wide enclosure so it can be stacked with other A/V equipment. Then that would allow you to have room for a couple pull-out hard drives on the front, and you get plenty of room on the back for tuners. Otherwise, stacking components on a tower isn't going to fit well in many entertainment centers. There's enough goof-ball stuff like game consoles that don't fit very well in an entertainment center, if Apple gets serious about making a media computer, I hope they do this.

This is all my opinion and my suggestion. I really don't think they will do this, I just wish and hope they do.

What I mean is that Firewire doesn't take kindly to mixed data/streaming video on the same bus. You would want the data separate from the video stream. So the tuner data should go on a more integrated bus, along with the remote, display, and any other functions. Leave the video/audio stream alone.

I've thought about that, but I don't think it would work because of the cost factor. If Apple does it right, it might cost over $1,500. That might be too much for many people to front. A two pronged approch would be more affordable, as the cost could be spread out.

Also, if they would like to remove the computer for some other purpose, or location, the separates idea would make it easier.

I thought is possible to assign and guarantee bandwidth for different targets on a Firewire bus, or is this in a special mode that's undesirable to use?

There seems to be a problem with Firewire in this respect. I've seen, in my own use, many problems resulting from connecting other devices to a Firewire bus when an HD is connected, and transferring either data or streams. There isn't much that can be done, as it's determined automatically. It doesn't have to be using all of the bandwidth either.

Why should they buy El Gato?

It would be a nasty thing for Apple to start competing with El Gato. It would only be slightly worse for them to buy them out. The message is then that Apple doesn't like competition and doesn't like developers that do things right.

What Apple needs to do is make Front Row 2.0 open to plug-ins, so that developers can add functionality, allowing it all to be controlled from one place. (Well, they also need a better remote--not a MS monstrosity, but something with a bit more than an "on" button. ) Then, if you want a PVR, boom, you've got it. You want games via FR? Boom, done. (Providing those developers want to support FR, obviously.)

If you like El Gato's stuff, just buy their products. Why does it all have to have an Apple logo on it?

As for the Blu-Ray drive: count on it. (Well, not the discount pricing or reduced margin. This is Apple folks! ) If I could find a bookie to take bets on a MWSF intro of products featuring BR drives, I'd fork over my savings (which, TBH, since I'm a teacher, isn't all that much...). Whether it's just adding them to the line-up as BTO options, or that plus a unique entertainment device/media hub, I'm not so sure. But BR drives will be available in Apple products by early January, no question.

They'll be expensive as hell--I'm guessing a $700-$1000 add-on option--but available, even if only in the Mac Pros. (Remember, for it to be added to a mini or an iMac or laptop, the drive would have to be a SuperDuperDrive(TM) CD-RW/DVD-RW/BR all-in-one reader/burner.)

People should be prepared for a mini-based media hub that reads BR disks to cost in the $1500 neighborhood.

That's unfortunate. (Wasn't one of the early benefits of FW that it let devices guarantee bandwidth if they needed it, hence the benefits to consumer electronics?)

Back in the winter, I asked Dan Frakes about any problems using multiple FW devices that were attached to the same bus (specifically, daisy-chaining an external FW HDD and a DV camera--sending the video to the HDD on the same bus seemed to me like it might cause some problems). He said he had no experience with it, but hadn't heard of any problems doing that. I'm now contemplating the same general issues, except add the possibility of an external Blu-Ray drive and an external HD-DVD drive as well. (Obviously, in practical usage, I would only ever be using two devices at once: 1) the HDD with 2) the DV camera, or the BR drive, or the HDDVD drive.) Are you saying that it's not a good idea? (Or am I completely misunderstanding you?)

If so, then I hope the new minis get 2 FW ports (on seperate buses).

Also, would/does FW800 fix the problem?

And this only issue is what's holding me back from buying one (as well as the macbook).

- Mark

This is already possible, Elgato has integrated eyeTV 2.0 into Front Row 1.0.

Not that I'm aware of. Are you sure? I hadn't heard of that. And I just looked at EG's site, and saw nothing about it.

It has an access screen/menu that is "Front-Row-like." And its videos can be added to the "Movies" section of FR (because it adds the recordings to the movies folder). But its controls are not accessible from FR (again, as far as I know).

Personally, when I saw El Gato come out with its FR-like screen, it seemed like a plea to Apple to open up FR and make it extensible. ("Hey, Steve! See, it can work like this.") However, it remains closed AFAIK.

BTW, I fully expect it to be opened come January. I don't think Apple is sitting on this.

... Hmmm...I wonder if there's anything interesting in the develop build of Leopard wrt Front Row. I'm hoping FR2 is opened come MWSF, and is available for both Panther and Tiger via iLife 07, and then is shipped with all copies of Leopard, including the Mac Pros. I hope Front Row 2 is not one of the "secret features" of leopard. That would just be lame.

Dan is a nice guy, but he doesn't use any of this in a professional way. In his career, he plays with equipment, as do most others in his position. I can tell you that I've done most of this, and there are problems. A Camcorder on a firewire bus with a HD is a well known problem. So is capturing with a tethered digital cam.

Firewire is like USB, much has been promised, and little has been delivered.

Not correct. They emulate Front Row's UI and let you switch between Front Row and EyeTV. They do not extend Front Row itself.

Lofty hopes for the next version of the Mac mini:

* 2.0GHz Core2 Duo Merom would be money

* 7,200 RPM standard - oh please Apple!

* Firewire 800 would be awesome

* Choice of a discreet graphics card

How much would you be willing to pay for a Mini with those features? $1,000? More?

I can almost guarentee that iMac's will be getting an update too by the logic of the Mini Shortage story. I ordered my iMac on monday (the 21st) and i just got an email telling me that i'll probably get my iMac on the 12 of september. Thats a twenty three day wait. Granted, I did order it with a gig of RAM and the beefed up graphics card, through my "mac genious" cousin.

Actually, it's quite a relief to finally see some news about Mac Mini updates. It has always been iMac this, iMac that... For a long time, the Mac Mini has seemed like the ugly bastard token piece that sits in a corner collecting dust, for the sole purpose of letting Apple say they do make a modular desktop computer other than the Power Mac. Meanwhile, every other Mac ships with a minimum of 1.83 Ghz CPU while the Mac Mini is still stuck at 1.5 or 1.66 Ghz.

Oh Ok. It is being sold as integration.

I highly doubt Core 2 Duo. It's a new chip which will be expensive and therefore not in keeping with the Mini's cheapness. I would hope that they just lower the price and introduce better GPUs, even if that meant a better integrated chipset.

Current Mini is 1.66 Duo for £529. I'd be happy with a better GPU like the X3000, which is rumored to be coming out around this time too I think.

I saw some benchmarks somewhere that suggested it would be about half the speed of the X1600, which is far more reasonable than the GMA950 but benchmarks for it are hard to find and some sites say the chip won't be up to much.

If they can hit a price point of £499 with that, I'd be very happy.

Core 2 Duo is currently the same price as Core Duo. There is no reason for Apple not to use it, unless they want to artificially cripple the mini to make the more expensive hardware look better, which they often did in the PPC era.

Well, Apple could also throw in a Blu-ray drive (even if it's just as an option). That'd be a nice surprise.

Guys, the Mac mini will be updated on Tuesday.

The base Mini had better get the Duo. Putting it out with the Solo was just a stupid move on Apple's part.
If it gets a Duo I will buy one with 1Gb RAM, even though the IG sucks. Unfortunately I have to buy another brand for an LCD Monitor since Apple desided not to sell a 17 inch monitor to folks who aren't loaded.
Any suggestions for a 17 in LCD?

Another sign that they're coming soon is my local Mac reseller - www.cancomuk.com - they're quite a big concern, and are an AASP as well.

Looking on their site, the've been waiting for new shipments of the minis that are overdue from the first week of August! It must be soon...

David

How do you know this?

That depends on the price/performance ration of the mid to high end Yonahs over the low end Conroe or Morem chips. If, say Apple could put in a 2.0 Ghz Yonah in the Mini instead of the 1.86 Conroe and see similar performance at a lower price then I would prefer the 2.0 Yonah be used in the Mini. I think that one of Apple's main goals for the next update of the Mini should be to get the pricing structure of the G4 Mini's back, and they might have a better chance at doing this with the Yonah than the Conroe. This would also mean that they would have fewer systems using the Conroe so there will be less strain on the available supply of chips for the iMac, assuming that the iMac goes Conroe. Of course I also think that one of Apple's goals for the iMac should be to get the entry model back down to $999, which I think will help more people to seriously consider an iMac over the competition.

I think that these price points are very important due to the way that Apple computers are advertised by 3rd party vendors like CompUSA, and Apple's tendency to compleatly omit price from their advertising. Most non-Apple oriented venders that I have seen tend to print the high end price for Macs. Also, I have not seen them give much in any ad space for the Mini. Case in point, when my parents were looking at computers last year they had no idea that Apple had a computer for less than $1299, and my frugal step-father did not want to spend that much on a computer. Of course in the end he did end up with a 17" iMac for $1299, but only after being "bullied" into it by my Mom who did not want a laptop. He also ended up buying a new printer and some other stuff because it was "on sale". I honestly think that if the iMac was $1399 retail and $1299 on sale he would not have objected to the price at all because he would have thought he was gettting a good deal on the computer.

This just shows that there is a lot of psychology in marketing that helps companies make the sale, some of it Apple takes advantage of but most of it they do not. Apple could do a lot better with price points, rebates, and advertising (especially in non-Mac centric media) to get people to look at Macs and hopefully make a sale.

A very good hunch. It will probably be bumped to a higher processor but not necessarily Core2 Duo. The reason is that I have been watching the product lead times on the online Apple Store for Education. The Mac mini was once listed as availability in 2-3 weeks, and now it's 2-4 days. I vaguely recall something similar happening in the past on the online store prior to a product refresh. The iMac is still listed as 2-3 weeks. I conclude this to mean that the iMac is going to be getting Merom processors, whereas Apple can do the Mac mini update now (Tuesday 8/29) with existing Yonah processors. I am hoping that the Mac mini will move to Merom with the upcoming rev, but my hopes are diminishing. My fingers are still crossed though.

My predictions based on the above for the mini are the following:

One standard configuration - Ã* la the Mac Pro - with options:

1.66GHz Core Duo (optional 1.83GHz Core Duo, 2.0GHz Core Duo)
Combo Drive (optional upgrade to SuperDrive)
60GB HD (optional upgrades to 80GB, 100GB, 120 GB, 160GB, 100GB @ 7,200 RPM)
Integrated Graphics Chipset
512 MB RAM
$599.

That is a pretty minor update, with that I would expect that the price was $499. One problem wiht the single price model that is not as big of an issue with the Pro's is that the Minis are harder to upgrade at home for the average user, and the one model for the shelves, which means that their retail partners would be shut out of a lot of the BTO options that you are suggesting. Sure they might be able to up the RAM, and maybe the HD with in house upgrades (probably at a higher cost for some options than Apple's BTO options at their online store), but not the procesor.

They could have done this 2 months ago. I hope they have more in store for us than this. They can't blame freescale and ibm anymore.

Though I like your idea a lot, the Mac mini is more a take-it from the shelve kind of appliance. Apple may still offer a basic and a better model:
$599 dual-core 1.66 (Yonah) 512MB RAM Combo 60GB HD
$799 dual-core 1.83 (Yonah) 512MB RAM Superdrive 80GB HD

To backtomac: If they could sqeeze a better (than GMA950) integrated chipset (GMA3000?) it would be awesome!

The optional 7200rpm drive is an excellent idea (it's been available for pro notebooks for a long time...).

Having all (or most of) the Core Duo speeds available would be good for 2 reasons: more choices for the customer and a good way to get rid of Core Duo chips inventory if MacBooks, MacBook Pros and iMacs get Core 2 Duo cpus in the next weeks.

1.83GHz= +$50, 2.00Ghz= +$100, 2.16GHz= +$250, (2.33GHz= +$450, but unlikely)

Yeah from what I've read that should be a nice upgrade and perhaps explains the delay in the refresh. But if all they do is up the Yonah clock speeds then Apple should have done this 2 months ago.