or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Snootycrats
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Snootycrats - Page 7

post #241 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

One side says individual effort alone is the solution for eradicating poverty. The other says that's not the whole story-- that reforming institutions, creating new laws, and generally focusing on those kind of systemic factors would more effectively solve the problem. I don't really know what else to tell you.

Neither of the two choices above cover me. I don't believe poor people will get any better through individual effort. I also don't believe that was is taught in the classroom right now has anything to do with improving poor people.

What I think is that a large group of poor people get completely horrible inputs from their parents. Because of this, they simply don't follow any of the many rules that you need to drive ahead and get things done. To put it in simple terms, their attitude sucks.

So what will fix this? I don't think memorizing any more historical trivia in the classroom has anything to do with it. I don't think memorizing any more completely forgettable facts about Earth Science will help this. I don't think people with little interest in learning are going to really put all the effort into proving that this line is congruent to that in geometry. That's what liberal weenies want to do even though it hasn't work for the last 100 years.

My solution is that people who most likely will be poor as adults need some structure, organization, and accomplishment quickly. Memorizing history doesn't interest them, but you might be able to teach them sophisticated stuff about cooking or camping because it has an immediate payoff. If as young kids you gave them a job assembling things, and you paid them NOT hourly, but for each piece they assembled, they would have incentive to learn. If you paid them higher when they learned more complicated stuff, they would have a lot of DIRECT incentive. $8/hr is nothing when you are paying bills, but to kids it is a fortune.

I really think that video games are perfect for learning organization. The original intent of regular games was to dramatize things to make them exciting for kids. Video games are 100 times better at this because they can present situations so much more quickly than a game of Monopoly. Video games can require planning and following instructions closely.

So I think by TAKING A LOOK AT WHAT POOR PEOPLE REALLY ARE LIKE we could try to make a plan that works with what there is to work with. But liberal weenies want to join Jesse Jackson and pretend that poor people are just humble, ambitious people that the system has failed. They want to pretend that if we just threw a few more dollars at libraries and schools, it would cancel out the "inequities". The reality is that poor people tend to be clueless, ignorant, uncurious, and completely self-defeating. The only way I can see to cut that cycle off is to get to them when they are 7 or 8 and show them they can succeed in a way that is meaningful and dynamic to them, not by memorizing the uninspiring and mostly useless junk you learn in school.
post #242 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

There we go! Let's talk about MIDWINTER some more! Screw this discussion of poverty and culture and systemic issues that Nick and I are having upthread and talk about M.I.D.W.I.N.T.E.R, because that's what it's all about.

But you want solutions to poverty in the rural South. Here you go:

1) Fund the hell out of education.

2) Bring back the amnesty scholarships that would pay for your college tuition if you got a degree in Education and came back to teach for 5 years.

3) Encourage the 4 rich people in MS to donate more money to cultural centers in the state—museums, libraries, repositories, art galleries.

4) Fund more outreach programs to get kids from rural areas onto college campuses beginning in grade school. There are federal grants to do this. I'm working with one right now.

5) Expand upward bound and target the rural areas of the state.

6) Work with universities to do some kind of teacher trade—faculty from the area go to the rural schools and teach; faculty from the schools go to university and get additional training

7) Encourage middle-class burbs to adopt a sister city within the state and to leverage community resources (especially the churches) to help

8 ) Stigmatize complacency. Show rednecks for what they are: swilling beer on the front porch every night for the rest of their lives.

9) Fire Shelby Thames.

10) Publicize the poverty that exists in the state. Make it impossible to ignore. Air the dirty laundry. Encourage open, public discussions of failures.

11) When MS attempted to adopt a dumbass song that was a ode to romanticized old South values, I suggested that if it were adopted, MS should change its state slogan to "We can do better than this." I think branding that phrase onto everyone's head would help.

I admire you, Midwinter. You don't give up. That attitude is what the people we are allegedly talking about need most.

Reply 1) Throwing money at a problem tends to create more government bureaucracy attempting to control (and distribute, and quite frankly, siphon off) that money. Look at what happened to the Katrina families. Hundreds of millions seemingly evaporated. That was completely predictable. It's a fact that money in the hands of government encourages graft and corruption, and it rewards incompetence.

Reply 2) I like this idea under the current system, although as a rule I am against public education. The private sector would be far more effective in educating and training kids, identifying troubled kids for special attention and being responsible for meeting goals or losing students to more effective schools. I wrestle with the idea of vouchers (and find I tend to favor it) since poorer parents could then send their kids to the best schools. Everyone tends to benefit from an educated population. How this would work with illegal immigrants, I have no answer to that yet.

Reply 3) I am 100% in favor of privately funded arts and education centers. Great idea, as long as there is no coercion involved for these MS "rich people". (I just updated this response, I thought you were talking about Microsoft)...

Reply 4) Totally in favor of privately funded efforts to achieve this. If kids have a vision of the future, and they are in it, they can actually look forward to something. I also think student and volunteer tutors and mentors help a great deal in this.

Reply 5) Not sure what upward bound is... is it anything like Outward Bound?

Reply 6) I don't know enough about this to comment. It doesn't sound like it would cost much.

Reply 7) Great idea.

Reply 8 ) I understand the thinking behind this, but positive reinforcement is nearly always better, unless you have troops in a life or death situation.

Reply 9) I have no idea who Shelby Thames is. Sorry. Someone in Mississippi perhaps? I'm thinking more country-wide.

Reply 10) This can only go as far as the public retains interest, or until the next "Steve Irwin" story hits and diverts attention to something that is insignificant when compared with real pressing issues... the needs and attentions of the living.

Reply 11) Effective propaganda should never be discounted out of hand.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

Get the lowdown on the coming collapse:  http://www.cbo.gov/publication/45010

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

Get the lowdown on the coming collapse:  http://www.cbo.gov/publication/45010

Reply
post #243 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

Reply 1) Throwing money at a problem tends to create more government bureaucracy attempting to control (and distribute, and quite frankly, siphon off) that money. Look at what happened to the Katrina families. Hundreds of millions seemingly evaporated.

Spammy,

I appreciate the fact that you're raising objections here based on concerns about the usefulness of properly funding education. That's good-- we're all in the same boat there. The problem is that, indeed, inner-city schools are grossly underfunded compared to their suburban counterparts. You can spout off clichés like "throwing money at a problem," but that particular one especially shouldn't apply when funding actually is an issue in those schools.
post #244 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

I admire you, Midwinter. You don't give up. That attitude is what the people we are allegedly talking about need most.

Looks like I'm in the right profession, then.

Quote:
Reply 1) Throwing money at a problem tends to create more government bureaucracy attempting to control (and distribute, and quite frankly, siphon off) that money. Look at what happened to the Katrina families. Hundreds of millions seemingly evaporated. That was completely predictable. It's a fact that money in the hands of government encourages graft and corruption, and it rewards incompetence.

Throwing money at the military works. And yes, the failures of FEMA after Katrina were predictable because many of them were just stupid. But it always amuses me when people always say that throwing money at education won't solve anything, and yet we throw immense amounts of money at other national endeavors and no one seems to mind. Good lord, what's Iraq costing us? A billion a week? The simple fact of the matter is that we don't fund education worth a damn, and states like MS fund it so poorly that they deserve to be mocked by every human being in America. Teachers need to be paid more. Schools don't have enough supplies. Buildings are in horrible disrepair. Textbooks are old. Libraries are horrible.

One would hope that groups like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation will help, but the problem, frankly, is so large in scope that whatever software they donate would be a drop in the bucket.

Quote:
Reply 2) I like this idea under the current system, although as a rule I am against public education. The private sector would be far more effective in educating and training kids, identifying troubled kids for special attention and being responsible for meeting goals or losing students to more effective schools.

So far, the private sector has failed miserably at this, so far as I can tell. Certainly, private (i.e. non-corporate) schools are different. But their success is largely a function of endowment. Princeton, for instance, has I believe the largest endowment in the nation, which means it can recruit the best faculty (pay), build the best library, and on and on. They cultivated an upper-class studentry (a university can, really, just buy better students; this happened at Rampoa in NJ) who after graduation made lots of money and donated it back to the University. Wealth begets wealth.

In other words, someone threw money at the problem and got one of the best schools in the world. Meanwhile, Jackson State University, an historically black college in MS, is in rough shape (although its campus is gorgeous).

Quote:
I wrestle with the idea of vouchers (and find I tend to favor it) since poorer parents could then send their kids to the best schools.

I do not like vouchers because parvenu rednecks in MS will pull their kids out of schools with a lot of black students (MS's black population is about 35%...more than twice the national average). Sure, there are arguments to be made about vouchers, but the fact of the matter is that, like in Israel, folks need to live and work and go to school and play together. The state is already segregated enough; vouchers would make it worse.

Quote:
Everyone tends to benefit from an educated population. How this would work with illegal immigrants, I have no answer to that yet.

A rising tide lifts all boats. A better educated population kills so many birds that I can't imagine counting them.

Quote:
Reply 3) I am 100% in favor of privately funded arts and education centers. Great idea, as long as there is no coercion involved for these MS "rich people". (I just updated this response, I thought you were talking about Microsoft)...

Usually, I'm thinking in terms of tax breaks. But rich folks also tend to want a legacybuildings named after them, scholarships, you name it.

Quote:
Reply 5) Not sure what upward bound is... is it anything like Outward Bound?

Upward Bound is about preparing at-risk kids for college. Here at my university, for instance, we start in the 9th grade (which is where we lose a massive chunk of our Hispanic/Latino population). About 50 kids from the area get identified by teachers as smart but at-risk of dropping out or not going on to college. Through a federal grant (TRIO, I believe), those kids come to campus every Saturday for 4 years. They get math, science, language, and arts training. When they graduate from high school (and this is the part I'm working on right now), they enter a bridge program where we bring them to campus for the summer, let them live in the dorms (with some supervision) and take two general education summer classes as a cohort. By the end of the summer, they've got some gen ed credits, they know their way around campus, they have a group of friends, and they know some faculty. I'm currently involved in revamping two parts of this: the classes they take and how soon we get at them. I'm setting the stage for a Political Scientist friend to start working with them in the 7th grade. This is all completely free for the kids.

Quote:
Reply 9) I have no idea who Shelby Thames is. Sorry. Someone in Mississippi perhaps? I'm thinking more country-wide.

Shelby Thames is the current President of my alma mater. He is regarded by people like me in much the same way that Bill Clinton was regarded by Republicans in the 90s. He is the bane of my existence, and I would just as soon suit his sorry ass up in desert fatigues and send him to Iraq as look at him. I will donate no money to my alma mater until he is gone (I have told them this). He has destroyed the department that awarded me my degree and has directly led to the ousting of three of the strongest faculty they had.

Don't even get me started on that.

So anyway. To sum up: much of what we do is half-assed or idiotic or woefully inadequate, and so of course we fail. We can do better than this, and it is in our best interests to do so. Quickly.

But the changes I'm outlining here would be generational in nature. This problem is systemic, and no bumper-sticker campaign or short-lived politicking will fix it.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #245 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

Spammy,

I appreciate the fact that you're raising objections here based on concerns about the usefulness of properly funding education. That's good-- we're all in the same boat there. The problem is that, indeed, inner-city schools are grossly underfunded compared to their suburban counterparts. You can spout off clichés like "throwing money at a problem," but that particular one especially shouldn't apply when funding actually is an issue in those schools.

Awww, he's calling me Spammy. I really think he's warming up to me...

ShawnJ, you might want to refer to my reply 2 for further thoughts about privately funded education, which might be the most viable alternative in Mississippi. They would have nothing to lose, if they truly represent the worst America has to offer. I have no firsthand knowledge of Mississippi's ills, but it sounds like they need to start taking more radical measures. Private sector education would be a great start.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

Get the lowdown on the coming collapse:  http://www.cbo.gov/publication/45010

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

Get the lowdown on the coming collapse:  http://www.cbo.gov/publication/45010

Reply
post #246 of 247
Just to get this back on track.... It looks like WM has been paying for these arguments.

Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #247 of 247
spindler you have some of the greatest posts and when I'm done working 90 hour weeks I'm going to really sit down with this thread--it's one of the deepest if not the deepest in my opinion on this forum, ever.

"I don't believe poor people will get any better through individual effort. I also don't believe that was is taught in the classroom right now has anything to do with improving poor people."

I disagree with both those statements.

People are not their parents.

I'm working 90 hours a week, and every passing week I get increasingly disgusted with poor people...most of them seem lazy. Like the gas station cashiers in the current town I'm staying in, in Mississippi. They're just inattentive. When I worked at a gas station (yes sir I did, up at 4am every morning last summer) I did a hell of a lot better. Greeted everyone walking in, nice and quick with everyone, etc. It seems like a good portion (I won't even say most, because hell, I simply haven't travelled enough or seen the stats) of poor people are lazy. Which means I don't feel sorry for them when I'm walking around in Wal-Mart. It's that simple. OK, back to work. A few more hours of post-processing GPS data still left.

Oh, and that first Walmart quote is interesting. I was thinking the other day...sure everything in Walmart is cheap. But it's all shit. That, and I'm of course not advocating we stop taxing rich people...of course they should be taxed more, especially companies and executives. Corporate tax law needs reform. Rich people should probably be taxed more, I'd say. It's just pathetic that the poor in America are, well, poor. They'll have to get to a library soon, before robots replace them at McDonald's.
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
Reply
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Snootycrats