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post #41 of 247
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

The problem I have with Walmart - and our economy right now as a whole - is that it is geared toward making billionaires even more billionairey rather than making lower-middle classes get more middle-classy. Walmart is a perfect example of this. The Walton family is the wealthiest family in the history of the universe. You claim they have gotten there by "improving 100 millions lives." I say that's BS, they have gotten there by rigging the system to get government subsidies and by keeping their employees as low as possible. Of course they're just doing what our economy as a whole does right now, just better than their competitors. The main problem is our cultural acceptance of this type of moral outrage. We accept it because conservatives like you defend it and liberals don't care enough to speak up and say this is the most fundamental problem in our society right now.

What you really mean to say is that your problem with the economy is that it does not take enough from those who produce to give to those who do not produce. You nor a single person on here has addressed whether the jobs Walmart provides, cashiers, shelf stockers, etc. are worthy of $10-15 per hour plus health benefits. If those jobs do not actually provide that level of value from where do you propose the value come from? What the hell is so hard to address about this?

Economics dictates that you must either increase efficiency or add value. If you cannot do either of those things and still demand the value then it is nothing other than theft.

You can call it B.S. but there are plenty of choices elsewhere. People are not forced to shop at Walmart. You were not forced to shop there.

The reality is that life is improving at an unprecedented rate. We can all bitch or defend Walmart on computers thousands of times more powerful than used for moonlandings across thousands of miles for next to nothing. Everyone benefits from this and the fact that the benefit is so large, even with progressive taxation, that some grow wealthy is nothing more than a proof of how large the gain has been.

You complain about the cultural acceptance but that is because others do not think as you do. They do not complain that someone improved the lives of so many and that a small residual of that gain when kept across how many lifes are improved ends up to incredible wealth. That corporation serves 100 million people a week and the cents from all those transactions added through the weeks and the year end up as incredible wealth, but it also shows incredible service to those who were the customers.

My dad is a diesel mechanic. He complains about the fact that independent trucking has just about disappeared. Yet he understands the gains the "Walmarts" of trucking have brought about. The corporations within trucking earn about a cent a mile profit. But their trucks run a combined million miles per day. It is incredible efficiency that allows a corporation to exist on that sort of margin and still beat everyone else. This is what Walmart does as well. They are actually willing to earn less per dollar sold profit but be willing to move so many more dollars of sales to insure an exceptional gain.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Here's a nice link if you must explore the obivious! All I had to do was type in " Wal-mart Unfair and got thousands of hits. That's not good for your case Trumpy.

http://dmoz.org/Society/Issues/Busin...irms/Wal-Mart/



It's kind of like saying " Microsoft is ok with their monopoly over the computing industry all these years ".

But maybe you think that also?


This is unforgivingly stupid!

You sound more like Ann Coulter all the time but you're probably proud of that!

The hilarious thing about your position Jimmac is your actual search terms. Walmart unfair.

Why is Walmart unfair? Your links say because they are a large target with deep pockets and thus are subjects of variou suits seeking to loot those deep pockets. Complaints are not facts, especially when the complainers have their hands out. Walmart is immoral because they won't have an unthinking moron a safety net life of super wages and free health care all because they can run a tag over a scanner.

Again address the value. If the value isn't there then you advocate theft. Demand that those with a brain serve those who can barely stock a shelf and watch as those with a brain invent a machine to replace those who stock the shelfs. Two generations ago you were lucky to encounter an ATM. All those tellers we needed have been replaced by ATMS. I pay all my bills and do all my banking over the internet for free. The productivity gains are incredible. Those who made their living the old way must engage in a new way that involves more brain power. Even Thomas Friedman will tell us the world is flat and that while a generation ago you would have preferred to be a B student in Los Angeles instead of a genius in Bangalore. Now the genius has the better chance no matter what their country of origin. As for those who choose to not even be a B student but prefer to be unskilled and unthinking. Nothing will save them no matter what their country of origin either. Passing laws won't do that and villifying Walmart won't either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

http://www.now.org/issues/wfw/wm-facts.html

The difference here is Wal-Mart is supposed to be helping the people besides making a profit. However a lot of people don't like their tactics. That amounts to more than a opinion on mandatory health insurance.

It's the helping hand on one side and the rusty knife on the other.

They do help people besides making a profit. They help millions get the best possible deals for goods and increase their buying power. Their business is retail and they do it better than anyone else. They move more goods, they need less profit per dollar from those goods. What else would you have them do?

Address the value of the work provided by the workers. Do you think that if the value is above what is provided to the company for their work, that the company should just somehow make up the difference? You toss about empty phrases like "Walmart doesn't pay enough." Pay enough in comparison to what or who? Am I to believe that if I worked retail for Target or Kmart that I would suddenly be richer? If that is true then why wouldn't I just go work for them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

It is interesting. You're right.

But if you look at two broad areas of criticism--
  • Wal Mart's employment practices and
  • Wal Mart's effect on local and national economies.

--you'll understand how people pay a high cost for Wal-Mart's low prices.

Studies I have seen about the Walmart effect on local and national economies are positive. Perhaps it does not sit well with the less efficient Mom and Pop store who goes out of business through those lower prices but that does not mean the entire local economy suffers. It is clear it gains. It simply means that better service with lower prices, a level of efficiency that a lone entity cannot offer has occurred. Explain how that is harmful. Of course it doesn't make great news and doesn't play as well as some local closing shop.

Shawn, the saddest part of this is that you probably have never shopped in many of these low income, often ghetto neighborhoods where Walmart is now trying to build in cities. The level of service is so bad and the prices so high that they are the first things the rioters desire to burn down and rants regularly use them as proof of oppression and racism. Yet if these folks understood even the smallest bit of economic theory they would be embracing Walmart with open arms instead of voting to keep them out. When Mom and Pop cannot match the level of efficiency they expect the entire community to pay for it. They offer lower service, less choice and higher prices. Whether it is a rural community or a ghetto, no one being served by those stores is better off.

I "understand" why some people criticize. It is simply without merit. Perhaps someday you will "understand" that good intentions doesn't add up to being an efficient retailer.

BTW, that is your warning. Toss out another phrase that assigns yourself some sort of unearned mental status or tacitly implies ignorance and I'll be less kind.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #42 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

Guessing is fun.

So is imagining.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #43 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

So is imagining.


I was going to get pissed about people intentionally misreading my posts but I realized this thread was about walmart and I baited the dems to attack me. Sorry for baiting you, dems, my bad.

I have a sore spot about people blaming The Wealthy for everything they don't like.
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post #44 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

What you really mean to say is that your problem with the economy is that it does not take enough from those who produce to give to those who do not produce. You nor a single person on here has addressed whether the jobs Walmart provides, cashiers, shelf stockers, etc. are worthy of $10-15 per hour plus health benefits. If those jobs do not actually provide that level of value from where do you propose the value come from? What the hell is so hard to address about this?

Economics dictates that you must either increase efficiency or add value. If you cannot do either of those things and still demand the value then it is nothing other than theft.

You can call it B.S. but there are plenty of choices elsewhere. People are not forced to shop at Walmart. You were not forced to shop there.

The reality is that life is improving at an unprecedented rate. We can all bitch or defend Walmart on computers thousands of times more powerful than used for moonlandings across thousands of miles for next to nothing. Everyone benefits from this and the fact that the benefit is so large, even with progressive taxation, that some grow wealthy is nothing more than a proof of how large the gain has been.

You complain about the cultural acceptance but that is because others do not think as you do. They do not complain that someone improved the lives of so many and that a small residual of that gain when kept across how many lifes are improved ends up to incredible wealth. That corporation serves 100 million people a week and the cents from all those transactions added through the weeks and the year end up as incredible wealth, but it also shows incredible service to those who were the customers.

My dad is a diesel mechanic. He complains about the fact that independent trucking has just about disappeared. Yet he understands the gains the "Walmarts" of trucking have brought about. The corporations within trucking earn about a cent a mile profit. But their trucks run a combined million miles per day. It is incredible efficiency that allows a corporation to exist on that sort of margin and still beat everyone else. This is what Walmart does as well. They are actually willing to earn less per dollar sold profit but be willing to move so many more dollars of sales to insure an exceptional gain.



The hilarious thing about your position Jimmac is your actual search terms. Walmart unfair.

Why is Walmart unfair? Your links say because they are a large target with deep pockets and thus are subjects of variou suits seeking to loot those deep pockets. Complaints are not facts, especially when the complainers have their hands out. Walmart is immoral because they won't have an unthinking moron a safety net life of super wages and free health care all because they can run a tag over a scanner.

Again address the value. If the value isn't there then you advocate theft. Demand that those with a brain serve those who can barely stock a shelf and watch as those with a brain invent a machine to replace those who stock the shelfs. Two generations ago you were lucky to encounter an ATM. All those tellers we needed have been replaced by ATMS. I pay all my bills and do all my banking over the internet for free. The productivity gains are incredible. Those who made their living the old way must engage in a new way that involves more brain power. Even Thomas Friedman will tell us the world is flat and that while a generation ago you would have preferred to be a B student in Los Angeles instead of a genius in Bangalore. Now the genius has the better chance no matter what their country of origin. As for those who choose to not even be a B student but prefer to be unskilled and unthinking. Nothing will save them no matter what their country of origin either. Passing laws won't do that and villifying Walmart won't either.



They do help people besides making a profit. They help millions get the best possible deals for goods and increase their buying power. Their business is retail and they do it better than anyone else. They move more goods, they need less profit per dollar from those goods. What else would you have them do?

Address the value of the work provided by the workers. Do you think that if the value is above what is provided to the company for their work, that the company should just somehow make up the difference? You toss about empty phrases like "Walmart doesn't pay enough." Pay enough in comparison to what or who? Am I to believe that if I worked retail for Target or Kmart that I would suddenly be richer? If that is true then why wouldn't I just go work for them?



Studies I have seen about the Walmart effect on local and national economies are positive. Perhaps it does not sit well with the less efficient Mom and Pop store who goes out of business through those lower prices but that does not mean the entire local economy suffers. It is clear it gains. It simply means that better service with lower prices, a level of efficiency that a lone entity cannot offer has occurred. Explain how that is harmful. Of course it doesn't make great news and doesn't play as well as some local closing shop.

Shawn, the saddest part of this is that you probably have never shopped in many of these low income, often ghetto neighborhoods where Walmart is now trying to build in cities. The level of service is so bad and the prices so high that they are the first things the rioters desire to burn down and rants regularly use them as proof of oppression and racism. Yet if these folks understood even the smallest bit of economic theory they would be embracing Walmart with open arms instead of voting to keep them out. When Mom and Pop cannot match the level of efficiency they expect the entire community to pay for it. They offer lower service, less choice and higher prices. Whether it is a rural community or a ghetto, no one being served by those stores is better off.

I "understand" why some people criticize. It is simply without merit. Perhaps someday you will "understand" that good intentions doesn't add up to being an efficient retailer.

BTW, that is your warning. Toss out another phrase that assigns yourself some sort of unearned mental status or tacitly implies ignorance and I'll be less kind.

Nick


Listen bucko! What you're trying to get us to accept is that you're viewpoint reflects reality when it clearly doesn't.

You have the gall to judge poor people or people who can't currently get a better job!

It's funny your " let them eat cake " attitude sounds more " Snooty " than anything else.

But trumpy it's right in character with your holier than thou, full of yourself attitude.

Fortunately " times are a changin " and this kind of attitude won't be prevalent for much longer.

I love your idea of " Who says Wal-mart is unfair? ". Trumpy says that's who!

Uh huh.

Full of your self.

What's really funny is that it's the best you can come up with to attack the democrats!

Bush is finished as well as the republicans for awhile now. The pendulum is swinging back the other way now and that just makes you uncomfortable.

Well too bad!

And that's the reality trumpy.


Put this in your pipe and smoke it Trumpy!

http://www.walmartmovie.com/facts.php
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #45 of 247
You know, "snootycrats" is pretty tame considering someone from a Walmart PR group just called them "Hezbocrats."
Quote:
Leading Hezbocrats, including Sen. Joe Biden (D-DE), Sen. Evan Bayh (D-IN) and Gov. Bill Richardson (D-NM), attended rallies in Des Moines to slam Wal-Mart, the nations largest private employer. Wal-Marts crime? According to the Hezbocrats, Wal-Mart has abandoned the middle class by not paying what they consider a living wage or providing its employees free healthcare coverage.

Got it?

If you don't like the fact that the Walton family is the richest group of multi-hundred-billionaires in the world while it keeps its employees at welfare and medicaid levels, you're a terrorist. If you think that instead of keeping 5 billion extra profit per year it should (and could) contribute to its employee's health insurance and retirement, you're not a person of moral values, you're a member of "the Hezbocrat militia" (referring there to Hillary Clinton).

These are people who know they're immoral. You don't come up with that kind of stuff otherwise.
post #46 of 247
Thread Starter 
ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #47 of 247
Thread Starter 
How does one determine what is "extra" profit from "non-extra" profit?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #48 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......

Nick


Were you trying to add something or was that a speech inpediment?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #49 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

How does one determine what is "extra" profit from "non-extra" profit?

Nick

Oh please!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #50 of 247
Thread Starter 
I've added exactly what you did. I just saved space. If you want more, then you must contribute something beyond a rant.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #51 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

I've added exactly what you did. I just saved space. If you want more, then you must contribute something beyond a rant.

Nick



OOOOOOooooooooo! And all the way from mount olympus to!

Look it's you who are ranting. It's you who's trying deperately to turn a nothing point into something ( just like the Gore thing ).

I still maintain that we all know about Wally - World and it's practices.

Get real. So talk to me when you have something real.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #52 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Oh please!

It is a legitimate question. At what point do profits become excessive? Is it a dollar amount? Is it some gross profit margin? Net profit margin? You can't bandy about a term and then scoff at someone asking you to define precisely what you mean by it...unless it is intentionally imprecise in which case it is only used for hyperbole and obfuscation of your lack of a concrete point.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #53 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

If you don't like the fact that the Walton family is the richest group of multi-hundred-billionaires in the world while it keeps its employees at welfare and medicaid levels, you're a terrorist. If you think that instead of keeping 5 billion extra profit per year it should (and could) contribute to its employee's health insurance and retirement, you're not a person of moral values, you're a member of "the Hezbocrat militia" (referring there to Hillary Clinton).


Uh.. The waltons don't have more than a hundred billion a piece... Bill Gates has less than 70 billion and he's the richest guy in the US (world?).

I don't know what your point was, but if you want your government to tell Wal Mart what to pay its employees, you're a socialist.. and an idiot.

And for the record, Costco's profits are higher than wal mart's and Costco is growing faster (I compared their annual reports for my accounting class a year ago). Costco pays their employees much more and offers health benefits. ... But their profit! OMG NOES! SOMEONE MAKES MONEY LET'S SHUT THEM DOWN!

I had a friend that worked at a walmart, he said it wasn't that bad--that flipping burgers was harder and paid less. I guess we need to close the fast food restaurants too.
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post #54 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead

I don't know what your point was, but if you want your government to tell Wal Mart what to pay its employees, you're a socialist.. and an idiot.

The gummit does tell WM, and every other company in America (and Canada, and Germany), what it can pay its employees. It's the minimum wage.

Quote:
And for the record, Costco's profits are higher than wal mart's and Costco is growing faster (I compared their annual reports for my accounting class a year ago). Costco pays their employees much more and offers health benefits. ... But their profit! OMG NOES! SOMEONE MAKES MONEY LET'S SHUT THEM DOWN!

CostCo also encourages unions. I don't really think bringing CostCo into this helps your argument, since it does everything Wal-Mart says it can't and it has better profits and growth.

Quote:
I had a friend that worked at a walmart, he said it wasn't that bad--that flipping burgers was harder and paid less. I guess we need to close the fast food restaurants too.

I had a friend who worked 39 hours a week at WM and got locked in in the evenings. Amazing what can happen with a hasty generalization, ain't it?
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post #55 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

How does one determine what is "extra" profit from "non-extra" profit?

Nick

It's all extra. They could use 5 billion of it to contribute to the retirement and health care of its employees, but they make a choice not to (and you applaud them for that choice).
post #56 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead

Uh.. The waltons don't have more than a hundred billion a piece... Bill Gates has less than 70 billion and he's the richest guy in the US (world?).

The Walton family makes up half of the top 10 wealthiest Americans. They don't have a hundred billion apiece, but as a family they do.

Quote:
I don't know what your point was, but if you want your government to tell Wal Mart what to pay its employees, you're a socialist.. and an idiot.

You know exactly what my point was, and it would sure be nice if they treated their employees better without the government telling them they had to, wouldn't it? How about a little personal responsibility on the part of the Waltons. It would also be nice if the government wouldn't give them my tax dollars. And if the government didn't have to pay medicaid and other assistance for its employees when other employers cover theirs. And if our current government didn't try to massively cut taxes on them and therefore increase deficits.

Quote:
And for the record, Costco's profits are higher than wal mart's and Costco is growing faster (I compared their annual reports for my accounting class a year ago). Costco pays their employees much more and offers health benefits. ... But their profit! OMG NOES! SOMEONE MAKES MONEY LET'S SHUT THEM DOWN!

You must have flunked your paper, because costco is about 1/10 the size of Walmart, and has less than 1/10 the profit. They may be growing faster, only because Walmart has already saturated the US.

But isn't it wrong that costco pays their employees much more and has health benefits? Isn't that socialism? Treat 'em like dirt, you say - right?
post #57 of 247
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

It's all extra. They could use 5 billion of it to contribute to the retirement and health care of its employees, but they make a choice not to (and you applaud them for that choice).

I declare all of your income to be "extra" as well. I demand you send it to me so I may apply it to the public good. You aren't fit to judge what the public good is regarding it since you were the one who earned it. In fact you aren't fit to post an individual opinion on this until you give proof you have submitted to the collective will.

I'll applaud them because the purpose of a corporation is not to be a nanny. Walmart does what it does well and better than anyone else in their sector. You claim they could do more when their margins are already lower than competitors who do not do more.

Your thinking that those who can exist only for those who cannot is sick and sad. You've addressed nothing each time you've posted here. You have yet again FAILED to address the fact that you want these jobs to be paid at a rate higher than the value they provide. You think these "extra" profits will exist when employees are paid not for the value they provide, but are instead subsidized for the benefit of declaring that they are incapable.

You don't erect an entire company for the sole purpose of insuring that a greeter can get paid $50k a year and have health care for saying "Welcome to Walmart." If it is so easy to do what you claim then simply do it. Found a company, outgrow and outperform Walmart and pay all your employees accordingly.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #58 of 247
Quote:
You don't erect an entire company for the sole purpose of insuring that a greeter can get paid $50k a year and have health care for saying "Welcome to Walmart."

So somehow paying $10/hr and perhaps $3 in benefits became $50k a year. Your argument is as good as your math.
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post #59 of 247
Nick I want you to prove to me that walmart employees are worth so little. My proof that they're not being paid enough is that the Waltons have a hundred billion dollars from walmart profits. Your proof is... Nothing. You just commit the naturalistic fallacy - that's the way it is, so it must be right. Furthermore, your contempt for walmart employees is not even beneath the surface any more. Liberals are doing the right thing by pointing out immoral behavior on the part of large corporations, and all your side does is name-call.
post #60 of 247
And anyone that thinks that standing on your feet for 8 hours and reciting one goddamn cliche sentence every time John fucking Doe walks into Wal-Mart to get his 4-o'clock soda fix is easy, I challenge them to work there for a month.

Then we'll see how easy or worthless it is.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #61 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Clean

And anyone that thinks that standing on your feet for 8 hours and reciting one goddamn cliche sentence every time John fucking Doe walks into Wal-Mart to get his 4-o'clock soda fix is easy, I challenge them to work there for a month.

Then we'll see how easy or worthless it is.

Ha. I'm a firm believer that there's an inverse correlation between hard work and pay: The harder your job, the less it pays.
post #62 of 247
The amount of money that the owner's make isn't proof that the workers make too little. Proof that the workers make too little could include an inability to hire enough workers to staff the stores at those wage rates or high turnover rates. If turnover rates are indeed high, it is possible to raise wages to negate the cost of retraining new employees. That is sound human resources management strategy. See, companies not only have responsibilities to the employees they hire, but also to the other stakeholders.

Profits in and of themselves say nothing with regard to fair wages. In fact, linking fair wages to profits actually hurts your cause because I'm sure you are not in favor of employees giving back wages to the company when it is losing money (unless that employee is management, of course you have no qualms there).

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #63 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Ha. I'm a firm believer that there's an inverse correlation between hard work and pay: The harder your job, the less it pays.

That really is very demeaning to those who are educated, work hard, and make a decent salary.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #64 of 247
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Clean

So somehow paying $10/hr and perhaps $3 in benefits became $50k a year. Your argument is as good as your math.

The average Walmart salary now is $10 an hour. I used the $50k figure because the $10 an hour is consider demeaning and not a living wage by those who criticize Walmart. Obviously $50k would be a living wage and so I didn't state it to say what they make now, but what critics would like them to be paid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Nick I want you to prove to me that walmart employees are worth so little. My proof that they're not being paid enough is that the Waltons have a hundred billion dollars from walmart profits. Your proof is... Nothing. You just commit the naturalistic fallacy - that's the way it is, so it must be right. Furthermore, your contempt for walmart employees is not even beneath the surface any more. Liberals are doing the right thing by pointing out immoral behavior on the part of large corporations, and all your side does is name-call.

That is an outright lie. The Waltons do not have their wealth from Walmart profits. Gates nor Buffet have their wealth from profits either. The wealth that they have is derived from the stock they own from their respective companies. The Walton family owns a 40% stake in the Walmart company and that stake is worth 100 billion. Actually that stake is worth much less than that this year as the stock is down considerably (family stake now worth $75b).

You show a financial ignorance that is staggering and also show why the government, even under the Republicans is no where near conservative enough. Think about this for a moment. All of Walmart combined, every cent of every stock, its market cap is worth $182 billion. If you liquidated Walmart today and wiped it off the face of the planet. It wouldn't equal half the deficit, not total mind you just the deficit spending our government is doing this year. Our government will spend 2.4 trillion this year. It will spend the entire worth of what Sam Walton will have created and took public in 1970 thirteen times over.

So it is you who commits the fallacy. To get $100 billion of net profit out of Walmart, you would have to take every cent the company has made for over a decade. Walmart employs 1.5 million people and their ANNUAL profit is around 10 billion. If you took that entire profit, every cent of it and divided it among every employee, it comes to around $6600 dollars per person per year. You break that down further to an hourly rate and it is about $3 an hour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Clean

And anyone that thinks that standing on your feet for 8 hours and reciting one goddamn cliche sentence every time John fucking Doe walks into Wal-Mart to get his 4-o'clock soda fix is easy, I challenge them to work there for a month.

Then we'll see how easy or worthless it is.

I'm sure plenty of people here have worked retail within their lifetimes. I know I did. It was very easy work.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #65 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR

That really is very demeaning to those who are educated, work hard, and make a decent salary.


In view of the fact that some people out there didn't have a chance for all that. Yours is an elitist attitude.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #66 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

The average Walmart salary now is $10 an hour. I used the $50k figure because the $10 an hour is consider demeaning and not a living wage by those who criticize Walmart. Obviously $50k would be a living wage and so I didn't state it to say what they make now, but what critics would like them to be paid.



That is an outright lie. The Waltons do not have their wealth from Walmart profits. Gates nor Buffet have their wealth from profits either. The wealth that they have is derived from the stock they own from their respective companies. The Walton family owns a 40% stake in the Walmart company and that stake is worth 100 billion. Actually that stake is worth much less than that this year as the stock is down considerably (family stake now worth $75b).

You show a financial ignorance that is staggering and also show why the government, even under the Republicans is no where near conservative enough. Think about this for a moment. All of Walmart combined, every cent of every stock, its market cap is worth $182 billion. If you liquidated Walmart today and wiped it off the face of the planet. It wouldn't equal half the deficit, not total mind you just the deficit spending our government is doing this year. Our government will spend 2.4 trillion this year. It will spend the entire worth of what Sam Walton will have created and took public in 1970 thirteen times over.

So it is you who commits the fallacy. To get $100 billion of net profit out of Walmart, you would have to take every cent the company has made for over a decade. Walmart employs 1.5 million people and their ANNUAL profit is around 10 billion. If you took that entire profit, every cent of it and divided it among every employee, it comes to around $6600 dollars per person per year. You break that down further to an hourly rate and it is about $3 an hour.



I'm sure plenty of people here have worked retail within their lifetimes. I know I did. It was very easy work.

Nick


When I was younger I worked retail for quite some time. It was very hard at times if you wanted to get anywhere. I also worked commision sales at one point. Cut throat and not fun. Now days retail bears little resemblence to retail when I was young. Strictly part time and really salesmanship is not required. How long did you work it trumpy? A couple of years at most?

I can understand the easy part when you're not invested in the job.
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post #67 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR

That really is very demeaning to those who are educated, work hard, and make a decent salary.

No one's saying those people don't work hard.

It's just that the people BRussell talks about generally work even harder.
post #68 of 247
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

In view of the fact that some people out there didn't have a chance for all that. Yours is an elitist attitude.

A person can apply themselves regardless of background. Likewise they can fail to apply themselves regardless of background. Elitism isn't a bad thing. People certainly don't pay good money to watch me shoot free throws. They do pay me for providing housing, increasingly stock advice, and lastly to teach their children. I do these things better than most and if that is elite. Then I'll take the label and gladly wear it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

When I was younger I worked retail for quite some time. It was very hard at times if you wanted to get anywhere. I also worked commision sales at one point. Cut throat and not fun. Now days retail bears little resemblence to retail when I was young. Strictly part time and really salesmanship is not required. How long did you work it trumpy? A couple of years at most?

I can understand the easy part when you're not invested in the job.

I worked retail often through high school and into college. I only did short periods of work in it often because I was going to school and not using it for career purposes. Retail was very good as a second job. It wasn't physically grueling in any form. The environments were often air-conditioned and it required little to no brainpower.

I say I often worked it as a second job because it was much easier to earn more doing something else, especially any sort of physical labor outdoors. But there are times when you are taking classes or working a first job when it pays not to be exhausted. Actually what I should say is that instead of paying not to be exhausted, it COSTS not to be exhausted. It simply does not pay as well. The retail I worked the most was part to full time work at Disneyland. The schedule stunk but it was very easy work to pull off. I could do a week at Disneyland without it ever impacting my studies. Likewise a day busting ceramic tile out of a house left me too exhausted to do anything else. The trade-off was that the day of ceramic busting paid what the week of work at Disney did.

Of course I didn't make a career of it. It paid too little even then to be considered for a career by me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

No one's saying those people don't work hard.

It's just that the people BRussell talks about generally work even harder.

Retail work often leaves you with those things most valuable to you still available at the end of your shift. Your brain will still have plenty of energy, your back will still be capable and the sun will not have sapped your energy. Take almost any other job and not only do you work harder, but what you work is no longer available to you after the work is done. Imagine how much brain reserve you will have after 10 hours of law research for your clients someday. You may not have physically exhausted yourself but the mental effort you will be able to apply to your own needs afterwards will likely be limited.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #69 of 247
Quote:
I'm sure plenty of people here have worked retail within their lifetimes. I know I did. It was very easy work.

Nick

There's nothing easy about standing on your feet for 8 hours. That's a myth. Just because people working at Wal-Mart usually have low-education, doesn't automatically mean that they're doing easy work.

Quote:
Retail work often leaves you with those things most valuable to you still available at the end of your shift. Your brain will still have plenty of energy, your back will still be capable and the sun will not have sapped your energy. Take almost any other job and not only do you work harder, but what you work is no longer available to you after the work is done. Imagine how much brain reserve you will have after 10 hours of law research for your clients someday. You may not have physically exhausted yourself but the mental effort you will be able to apply to your own needs afterwards will likely be limited.

So you're saying that a tired body will be able to focus on things without any significant problems? That's an oxymoron.
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post #70 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

A person can apply themselves regardless of background. Likewise they can fail to apply themselves regardless of background. Elitism isn't a bad thing. People certainly don't pay good money to watch me shoot free throws. They do pay me for providing housing, increasingly stock advice, and lastly to teach their children. I do these things better than most and if that is elite. Then I'll take the label and gladly wear it.



I worked retail often through high school and into college. I only did short periods of work in it often because I was going to school and not using it for career purposes. Retail was very good as a second job. It wasn't physically grueling in any form. The environments were often air-conditioned and it required little to no brainpower.

I say I often worked it as a second job because it was much easier to earn more doing something else, especially any sort of physical labor outdoors. But there are times when you are taking classes or working a first job when it pays not to be exhausted. Actually what I should say is that instead of paying not to be exhausted, it COSTS not to be exhausted. It simply does not pay as well. The retail I worked the most was part to full time work at Disneyland. The schedule stunk but it was very easy work to pull off. I could do a week at Disneyland without it ever impacting my studies. Likewise a day busting ceramic tile out of a house left me too exhausted to do anything else. The trade-off was that the day of ceramic busting paid what the week of work at Disney did.

Of course I didn't make a career of it. It paid too little even then to be considered for a career by me.



Retail work often leaves you with those things most valuable to you still available at the end of your shift. Your brain will still have plenty of energy, your back will still be capable and the sun will not have sapped your energy. Take almost any other job and not only do you work harder, but what you work is no longer available to you after the work is done. Imagine how much brain reserve you will have after 10 hours of law research for your clients someday. You may not have physically exhausted yourself but the mental effort you will be able to apply to your own needs afterwards will likely be limited.

Nick

You had it easy and clearly weren't invested in the job as you knew you'd get out someday. Alot of these people don't. I worked for the May CO. ( Meier & Frank ) for 14 years. I was so glad to get out of there. I can see you've never worked a 15 hour sale with customers who at times seem like they're there just to abuse you. I remember some times I lost my voice simply because I'd been talking all day. True it's not digging ditches but it's a lot harder ( if you're invested ) than you make it out to be.

And Trumpy because we're talking about Wal-Mart a lot of those people don't have the time or money to further their education. I wish more did!
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post #71 of 247
I love the small of desperation in the morning.
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post #72 of 247
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Clean

There's nothing easy about standing on your feet for 8 hours. That's a myth. Just because people working at Wal-Mart usually have low-education, doesn't automatically mean that they're doing easy work.

Unless you care to make the definition of work be non-work obviously there is some sort of cost associated with working. No one is denying that. The reality is that it doesn't require the type of physical exertion that other jobs require that just happen to pay more. The climate is often reasonable as well, often air-conditioned. The work requires little to no training or skill.

You are right that standing on your feet for eight hours might hurt more than sitting on your ass. But we don't call sitting on your ass work now do we. Perhaps you can sit on your ass while applying an advanced skill or trade, but then we don't call those jobs unskilled do we. Jesus, it is like you want an apology for working actually being, well work.

In California this summer out in front of a Walmart in my town and on many other corners. They were advertising rates of up to $15 per hour for a job no one in that store left their $7 an hour to take. It was waving a sign back and forth to attract people to a housing development. The rate went so high because they couldn't get anyone to take this unskilled job which required standing in the sun. There are trade-offs in any job and since there are little to none in retail, it accordingly pays crap. You make any of these trade-offs and the rate of pay goes up quickly. But yes, if you don't want a skill, consider standing to be exerting yourself and desire to do all this inside an air conditioned building, you aren't going to be paid crap.

Quote:
So you're saying that a tired body will be able to focus on things without any significant problems? That's an oxymoron.

A body tired from standing can easily come home and attend to personal business. Spending the day putting asphalt on a road in the sun, roofing a house, turning wrenches in a shop and the type of tired you are talking about is considerably different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

You had it easy and clearly weren't invested in the job as you knew you'd get out someday. Alot of these people don't. I worked for the May CO. ( Meier & Frank ) for 14 years. I was so glad to get out of there. I can see you've never worked a 15 hour sale with customers who at times seem like they're there just to abuse you. I remember some times I lost my voice simply because I'd been talking all day. True it's not digging ditches but it's a lot harder ( if you're invested ) than you make it out to be.

And Trumpy because we're talking about Wal-Mart a lot of those people don't have the time or money to further their education. I wish more did!

There are plenty of folks who do invest themselves into their Disney retail positions. Disney certainly desired for me to progress. I just turned them down because I didn't want to become full-time there. You say I haven't worked a 15 hour sale, but I have been held over at Disney for double shifts and if you consider Disneyland an uncrowded place then obviously you are not that familiar with amusement parks.

Even when it was a 16 hour day, the worst problem were just weird Disney dreams. (I mean you've got nothing input-wise for the past day but Disney) I do admit to an occasional desire to climb a water tower with a high powered rifle and blame the results on the tape loop of Snow White from the wishing well which still pops into my head periodically to this day. I got to say cash or charge and watch the Japanese tourists tell me "yes" when they wouldn't admit they didn't know any English. I got to enjoy the fun of setting up parade routes and listening to cursing "guests' when they weren't allowed to cross and get to the other side of wherever they desired to go.

But I'm sorry, retail no where near the same as other jobs where you get paid for being willing to engage in any sort of true physicality. Desire to change some tires on the side of a freeway or run a tow truck, willing to crawl around and even install cable in the weather, anything beyond standing in air conditioning and the pay rate adjusts to it very quickly.

A person doesn't have to be willing to get a college degree either. They simply have to be willing to get any sort of training or any sort of trade. Likewise if they are willing to give up something beyond the barest physicality in a job (standing) or environment (air conditioning) the rate of pay will go up much higher.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #73 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Unless you care to make the definition of work be non-work obviously there is some sort of cost associated with working. No one is denying that. The reality is that it doesn't require the type of physical exertion that other jobs require that just happen to pay more. The climate is often reasonable as well, often air-conditioned. The work requires little to no training or skill.

You are right that standing on your feet for eight hours might hurt more than sitting on your ass. But we don't call sitting on your ass work now do we. Perhaps you can sit on your ass while applying an advanced skill or trade, but then we don't call those jobs unskilled do we. Jesus, it is like you want an apology for working actually being, well work.

In California this summer out in front of a Walmart in my town and on many other corners. They were advertising rates of up to $15 per hour for a job no one in that store left their $7 an hour to take. It was waving a sign back and forth to attract people to a housing development. The rate went so high because they couldn't get anyone to take this unskilled job which required standing in the sun. There are trade-offs in any job and since there are little to none in retail, it accordingly pays crap. You make any of these trade-offs and the rate of pay goes up quickly. But yes, if you don't want a skill, consider standing to be exerting yourself and desire to do all this inside an air conditioned building, you aren't going to be paid crap.



A body tired from standing can easily come home and attend to personal business. Spending the day putting asphalt on a road in the sun, roofing a house, turning wrenches in a shop and the type of tired you are talking about is considerably different.



There are plenty of folks who do invest themselves into their Disney retail positions. Disney certainly desired for me to progress. I just turned them down because I didn't want to become full-time there. You say I haven't worked a 15 hour sale, but I have been held over at Disney for double shifts and if you consider Disneyland an uncrowded place then obviously you are not that familiar with amusement parks.

Even when it was a 16 hour day, the worst problem were just weird Disney dreams. (I mean you've got nothing input-wise for the past day but Disney) I do admit to an occasional desire to climb a water tower with a high powered rifle and blame the results on the tape loop of Snow White from the wishing well which still pops into my head periodically to this day. I got to say cash or charge and watch the Japanese tourists tell me "yes" when they wouldn't admit they didn't know any English. I got to enjoy the fun of setting up parade routes and listening to cursing "guests' when they weren't allowed to cross and get to the other side of wherever they desired to go.

But I'm sorry, retail no where near the same as other jobs where you get paid for being willing to engage in any sort of true physicality. Desire to change some tires on the side of a freeway or run a tow truck, willing to crawl around and even install cable in the weather, anything beyond standing in air conditioning and the pay rate adjusts to it very quickly.

A person doesn't have to be willing to get a college degree either. They simply have to be willing to get any sort of training or any sort of trade. Likewise if they are willing to give up something beyond the barest physicality in a job (standing) or environment (air conditioning) the rate of pay will go up much higher.

Nick


Not the same thing at all trumpy.

15 hour sales happen all the time.

I'm not saying that retail clerks ( which by the way do a lot more than just standing around. Try that and keeping your job at the same time ) should get payed the same as the others you mention. However they should have a living wage with benifits. You get the type of service you pay for. If you don't like it buy all your crap on the internet. Which doesn't have the type of interaction you get from a real sales person.

As I've said before some of these people have kids or other obligations ( like a 2nd job to make up for the lousy pay ) so they don't have time to get out of the hole they're in.

However not many are buying here trumpy as you can see.

The other thing about Wal-Mart that people in general don't like is the fact that it stifles other business. You know the smaller stores that have a certain charm that a monopoly doesn't. You know just like Apple vs. Microsoft. A lot of people would rather shop at locally owned places that maybe you have to pay a bit more but are a hell of a lot more interesting than a concrete box full of stuff.

It seems to me that the person who wrote this article is a bit out of touch and should have the label of snooty.

You know sometimes I think you pull this stuff just get a rise out of someone.
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post #74 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead

You know what's also funny? The top 6% (the weathiest Americans) are mostly registered Democrats.

White guilt.
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post #75 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

You must have flunked your paper, because costco is about 1/10 the size of Walmart, and has less than 1/10 the profit. They may be growing faster, only because Walmart has already saturated the US.

Costco's profit MARGINS are higher, tough guy. They don't advertise, for one thing..

I was saying that their PROFITS were higher because everyone invested in them is PROFITING more per share.

This is even with the fact that Walmart's debt multiplier is way high.. So Wally world has more debt and yet still has less earnings per share percentage wise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

But isn't it wrong that costco pays their employees much more and has health benefits? Isn't that socialism? Treat 'em like dirt, you say - right?

Are you on crack?

People getting paid more isn't socialism, it's GOOD (note the dichotomy).

However, if they're getting paid more because of government intervention, that means the company they work for will likely be doomed, and will probably hire fewer people in the interim, contributing to the unemployment rate.

I love how we complain about jobs going oversees or going to illegal immigrants, and then wal mart comes into the picture with a competitive retail strategy and everyone says "OH NO, THEY'RE TOO BIG!"

If they're getting government subsidies, it's the GOVERNMENT'S fault. If they bribe for zoning rights, look to the law to see what's up. We have a legal system here, and corporations are not above it.

Really, Walmart isn't that profitable, they just have a whole lot of revenue.
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post #76 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Nick I want you to prove to me that walmart employees are worth so little. My proof that they're not being paid enough is that the Waltons have a hundred billion dollars from walmart profits.

That has to be one of the most irritating statements I've ever read.

"These guys are rich, therefore these other guys shouldn't be"

You know why they're rich? they're lucky. How lucky? well I heard they were 5 out of the 10 richest people in the world, that makes them like 10 in 6 billion.. or maybe just 1 in 600 million.

You could probably win the lottery twice in 2 weeks with that kind of luck.

The rest of us? We should probably have the ability to not be so damn jealous of other people's luck so as to want to steal it.

The funny part is about industry is that they create value. They literally just add a net worth to a country out of next to nothing. People think that for someone to be rich, others have to be poor. In actuality, most people who are rich probably just straight-up created a large portion of their riches.

An extreme example: If you built a house out of lumber you planted yourself, you created massive value from a bunch of dirt. The largest fortunes on earth were formed by people who added value to the world.... or stole it from people using government :P

What about candy? They take sugar and they turn it into candy, which is worth much more. Who lost out? The sugar was paid for by the proceeds from the candy, and the money goes to some guy. If the guy becomes rich, where did this poor person come from?

It's a stupid game people with fear or ignorance of economics play--to suggest that the poor and middle class can't add equity while the rich exist. It's sickening too.

You should learn to ignore the rich. Only losers compare themselves to others, winners compare themselves to their goals.
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post #77 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Not the same thing at all trumpy.

15 hour sales happen all the time.

I'm not saying that retail clerks ( which by the way do a lot more than just standing around. Try that and keeping your job at the same time ) should get payed the same as the others you mention. However they should have a living wage with benifits. You get the type of service you pay for. If you don't like it buy all your crap on the internet. Which doesn't have the type of interaction you get from a real sales person.

As I've said before some of these people have kids or other obligations ( like a 2nd job to make up for the lousy pay ) so they don't have time to get out of the hole they're in.

Having a child is a choice. Nobody else should have to pay for that choice. Sorry, don't have kids until you are ready to incur the related costs. It's stupid not to and I have zero sympathy for those who don't wait.

A single job works just fine if you live within your means and have roommates/housemates. Someone working a minimum wage job can afford to survive AND save money here in Santa Cruz (expensive ass place to live) if you have a roommate.

Quote:
However not many are buying here trumpy as you can see.

Trumpy is 100% right on this issue, sorry.

Quote:
The other thing about Wal-Mart that people in general don't like is the fact that it stifles other business. You know the smaller stores that have a certain charm that a monopoly doesn't. You know just like Apple vs. Microsoft. A lot of people would rather shop at locally owned places that maybe you have to pay a bit more but are a hell of a lot more interesting than a concrete box full of stuff.

Oh really? Snoot snoot snoot is all I have to say to that. If you want to pay more money to a mom and pop, go for it. Clearly not that many people actually want to because if enough did Walmart wouldn't drive anyone out of business. The bottomline is you have a bunch of hypocrites like BRussell who "hate everything Walmart stands for" but shop there anyway.

Watch the South Park episode about the Walmarts. Honestly. It is quite poignant and relevant.

Quote:
It seems to me that the person who wrote this article is a bit out of touch and should have the label of snooty.

You are a bit out of touch. If you really want me to run the numbers for you I will but you can survive off of minimum wage with a roommate in Santa Cruz while still socking some money away for the future.

Quote:
You know sometimes I think you pull this stuff just get a rise out of someone.

Nah, Trumpy speaks the gospel truth here and that's all there is to it.

 

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post #78 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR

Having a child is a choice. Nobody else should have to pay for that choice. Sorry, don't have kids until you are ready to incur the related costs. It's stupid not to and I have zero sympathy for those who don't wait.

A single job works just fine if you live within your means and have roommates/housemates. Someone working a minimum wage job can afford to survive AND save money here in Santa Cruz (expensive ass place to live) if you have a roommate.


Trumpy is 100% right on this issue, sorry.


Oh really? Snoot snoot snoot is all I have to say to that. If you want to pay more money to a mom and pop, go for it. Clearly not that many people actually want to because if enough did Walmart wouldn't drive anyone out of business. The bottomline is you have a bunch of hypocrites like BRussell who "hate everything Walmart stands for" but shop there anyway.

Watch the South Park episode about the Walmarts. Honestly. It is quite poignant and relevant.


You are a bit out of touch. If you really want me to run the numbers for you I will but you can survive off of minimum wage with a roommate in Santa Cruz while still socking some money away for the future.


Nah, Trumpy speaks the gospel truth here and that's all there is to it.

Sorry but it's the both of you ( 3 of you ha! ) that are out of touch.

I have nothing against getting rich. It's the people who take advantage and prey on others to get that way. If you don't understand that principle you missed some education in your childhood.

But I suppose it makes you more comfortble to live in that reality. And BR that's a bit sad.
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post #79 of 247
BR is it right that we live in a country where the minimum wage won't allow you to raise kids without being on federal assistance?

I'm 28, and the last time the minimum wage changed I was a junior in HIGH SCHOOL. I peresonally find that abhorrent.
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post #80 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder

BR is it right that we live in a country where the minimum wage won't allow you to raise kids without being on federal assistance?

I'm 28, and the last time the minimum wage changed I was a junior in HIGH SCHOOL. I peresonally find that abhorrent.

I'm all for the minimum wage going up. It has been way too long. However what he's missing is that kids sometimes aren't planned.
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