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post #81 of 247
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Sorry but it's the both of you ( 3 of you ha! ) that are out of touch.

Yes, obviously us elementary school teachers are ivory tower types who never mix with the general population. I'm about as in touch as you can get Jimmac. You just use your platitudes to avoid thinking. Phrases like "the tide is changing" though you can't say why, or "you are out of touch" even though I'm naming my own work and recent jobs and wage levels.

Quote:
I have nothing against getting rich.

Actual, yes you do. Your own belief system has probably stopped you from becoming so yourself. You can't loath something and then complain that when you work towards, it doesn't happen. This self-undermining, self-loathing is one of the principle reasons why people do so poorly financially. You can't pretend to hate something, avoid it, and then complain that the result magically never happened for you.

If I had a nickel for every time someone told me they hate the rich while sending their kids off to school sick because they can't afford to stay home for the day because of credit card bills, I could.....oh wait I do have a nickel for each time they've said it. Of course I only generate my wealth on a school teacher's salary with a stay-at-home wife. What the hell do I know. I only do what people declare is impossible.

Quote:
It's the people who take advantage and prey on others to get that way.

While there might be the occasional bad egg who prey on others to get their wealth. Most gain it by being of service to others and saving them their own time and money. This is what Walmart does for example. They don't force 100 million customers there a week at gun point. They do so by continually enhancing the value of what people get for their money. Note I said value and not price. If someone feels that they can get a better value elsewhere, they will go there. Walmart stock is down this year in part because like Dell, price isn't the only factor people consider in a buying decision. Target has had faster sales growth because in addition to being inexpensive, they also manage some stylistic flair. (Like Apple as well) So Walmart is attempting to go a bit more upscale and add value instead of just subtracting price. We will see if it works for them but either way, it isn't predatory, tt is service.

Quote:
But I suppose it makes you more comfortble to live in that reality.

You don't live in reality. You loath reality. You live in a world where those who achieve are cheaters and the losers are really the winners. You live in a world where every dollar earned by someone richer than you should be given away and every dollar you earn more than the poor is cause for guilt. I would hate living with such beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder

BR is it right that we live in a country where the minimum wage won't allow you to raise kids without being on federal assistance?

I'm 28, and the last time the minimum wage changed I was a junior in HIGH SCHOOL. I peresonally find that abhorrent.

So find it abhorrent. We give assistance even to working folks because we want to insure work is rewarded over pure welfare. Before such measures were signed work was penalized because taking the smallest job meant losing every benefit. Now we try to do a bit of a compromise where as you move up the bottom rungs of that ladder the assistance you previously relied EXCLUSIVELY on are not just ripped away, but drop off progressively as you become more capable and self-sufficient.

The most hilarious thing about this is that none of this assistance is counted as income when we calculate our wage and wealth gaps. Someone can be receiving the EITC, Section 8 housing assistance and food stamps and none of that is income. They can earn $12,000 and receive another $12,000 in benefits and we still state that they somehow had to feed their children on only $12,000 a year when in fact there was $24,000 worth of spending and money that went through the household.

That is something I find abhorrent, so the favor is returned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

I'm all for the minimum wage going up. It has been way too long. However what he's missing is that kids sometimes aren't planned.

That immaculate conception thing is a bitch isn't it? I think we should help anyone who has a child via immaculate conception. All the others planned sex so they planned possible kids. We give women dozens of options of both avoiding and then terminating the pregnancy. Men are pretty much screwed.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #82 of 247
You're talking in terms of "screw the parents, they can go broke because they didn't use proper foresight", but you have to remember that there are the poor children as well who aren't at fault for their parents having them.
post #83 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR

If you really want me to run the numbers for you I will but you can survive off of minimum wage with a roommate in Santa Cruz while still socking some money away for the future.

$8/ hour
40 hours/ week
52 weeks/ year

$16,640

Rent.
Utilities.
Food.
Renters Insurance.
Car Insurance.
Health Insurance.
Transportation costs.

I'm skeptical that minimum wage is as good a deal as you think it might be.
post #84 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

You don't live in reality. You loath reality. You live in a world where those who achieve are cheaters and the losers are really the winners. You live in a world where every dollar earned by someone richer than you should be given away and every dollar you earn more than the poor is cause for guilt. I would hate living with such beliefs.

You should print this out and frame it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

You're talking in terms of "screw the parents, they can go broke because they didn't use proper foresight", but you have to remember that there are the poor children as well who aren't at fault for their parents having them.

Read the above snippet from Trumptman. I have a little saying -- "Life isn't fair; deal with it." Some modern/post modern philosphers and writers have considered this, and the consensus is that a world that's made "fair" is not a good place to live. I would have to agree.
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post #85 of 247
Stocking shelves and running the cash register were never meant to be careers to support a family. The problem is that many of our manufacturing jobs have been lost to automation and foreign countries and the sector of society once supported by those jobs have fallen down into discount retail and fast food jobs. Jobs never meant to support families now are expected to do just that.
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #86 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

I'm all for the minimum wage going up. It has been way too long. However what he's missing is that kids sometimes aren't planned.

In this day in age there is absolutely no excuse for having an unplanned pregnancy. There are 11 forms of female birth control and male condoms. Combining any form plus the condom is virtually foolproof.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #87 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

$8/ hour
40 hours/ week
52 weeks/ year

$16,640

Rent.
Utilities.
Food.
Renters Insurance.
Car Insurance.
Health Insurance.
Transportation costs.

I'm skeptical that minimum wage is as good a deal as you think it might be.

$400 a month for rent with a roommate, $100 in utilities, $300 in food, $100 in health insurance, no need for a car when using public transit. Sorry dude but the numbers work. It's not great, but it works.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #88 of 247
We are not talking about the occasional "unplanned pregnancy". We are talking about a culture of carelessness and ignorance. We are talking about a culture void of personal responsibility.
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #89 of 247
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

You're talking in terms of "screw the parents, they can go broke because they didn't use proper foresight", but you have to remember that there are the poor children as well who aren't at fault for their parents having them.

I'm talking in terms of rights. Right now we do not force women to become parents but we still force men. Criminalizing a lack of desire to parent allows us to destroy dozens of civil liberties in ways that makes that makes the worst conspiracies of Bush or anyone else sound like a nursery tale.

If we stopped criminalizing this behavior, then parties could stop deluding themselves into believing they have a right to impose financial obligations on others. Think about the amount of time and resources that goes into this. It makes the War on Drugs look like a joke. Women who want children need to realize that they either get a legal commitment (aka marriage) or they get to take responsibility for their own actions. No amount of spent time or money dramatically changes this reality. Maybe we all feel better about calling some parents deadbeats in the end while slapping them with terrible credit, no driver's license, jail time and an inability to work above the table, but it doesn't really help the children.

As for the kids that are born, we do provide assistance. Schools provide free breakfast and lunch including Summer School. Things could get better if we didn't have a foster care system hell bent on reuniting children with their drunk, drugged, terrible parents instead of simply caring for them. Additionally most child support is not related to the cost of raising a child but to equalizing the two household incomes. Default 50% physical custody with each party being responsible for the costs of their own time would take care of most of these problems quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

$8/ hour
40 hours/ week
52 weeks/ year

$16,640

Rent.
Utilities.
Food.
Renters Insurance.
Car Insurance.
Health Insurance.
Transportation costs.

I'm skeptical that minimum wage is as good a deal as you think it might be.

Who said it has to be a good deal? Getting by is what you expect when you work in the minimum fashion. If you don't want to just get by, you must work and thus earn in more than the minimum fashion.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #90 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR

$400 a month for rent with a roommate, $100 in utilities, $300 in food, $100 in health insurance, no need for a car when using public transit. Sorry dude but the numbers work. It's not great, but it works.

Average rents for a 2 bedroom apt. in Santa Cruz are around $1400. The low end of 1 bedroom rentals is $1000. So figure on $500 if your "roommate" or yourself sleeps in the living room.

Average single person health insurance premiums in California stood at $300/month as of 2004 and is rising rapidly, and that's for lower end coverage with higher out of pocket expenses and generally doesn't include dental care. So if we want an at least semi-real world figure that includes at least one checkup a year, one prescription medicine and a teeth cleaning (I guess we'll just hope our plucky wage earner has 20/20 vision), figure on $400/mnth. Of course, in the real world, most minimum wage earners forgo health insurance entirely and rely on emergency room services for pretty much everything.

No car, better be careful where you take a job. Blithely assuming public transport gets you everywhere you want to go is a luxury of people who aren't obliged to use it. But let's figure you can take a couple of buses and walk some to get to work. Might take an hour or two each way, but that's time to work on your plan to better yourself.

Santa Cruz bus fares are $1.50 per ride, no transfers, so you're going to want to get a $50 monthly pass.

Now we're going to need a few more things. Toiletries (I am allowed toilet paper, soap, toothpaste, shampoo, etc., right?), clothes, odds and ends, maybe even the occasional wild extravagance like a newspaper. Let's be stern with our shiftless no-account of a loser and figure another $25/month for everything else.

So let's see here: $500 rent, $400 health insurance/expenses, $100 utilities, $50 transportation, $300 food, $25 sundries. $1375 month. Uh oh, somethings gotta give, or I'm homeless.

Let's drop the dental, prescription and doctor visits and assume vital good health. Now were right at our $1280 monthly income. We are most assuredly not "saving money", and in fact it's unclear how we're going to come up with things like a deposit on our apartment or out of pocket medical expenses. In fact, we're just one bad patch away from homelessness.

If we drop medical coverage entirely and hope for the best we have a little pad, but anyone who lives in the real world knows how tenuous a few hundred a month is when we've cut everything else to the bone.

Oh, and we can't miss a day. Ever. Or we're screwed. Minimum wage jobs aren't exactly famous for their generous sick leave and vacation packages, are they?

So how am I supposed to climb the ladder, again?

I have to say, there is something enormously depressing about listening to a lot of self satisfied tech oriented white boys explain how their college experience has proven that it's possible to live in marginal circumstances on little money, or simply assert that any and all are free to get a degree in computer sciences and start earning the big bucks. Is there something about being comfortable that deadens the imagination and impoverishes the spirit?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #91 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

No car, better be careful where you take a job. Blithely assuming public transport gets you everywhere you want to go is a luxury of people who aren't obliged to use it. But let's figure you can take a couple of buses and walk some to get to work. Might take an hour or two each way, but that's time to work on your plan to better yourself.

That's if you have public transportation. Where I live now is the first city where I've ever had it as an option.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #92 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski

Stocking shelves and running the cash register were never meant to be careers to support a family. The problem is that many of our manufacturing jobs have been lost to automation and foreign countries and the sector of society once supported by those jobs have fallen down into discount retail and fast food jobs. Jobs never meant to support families now are expected to do just that.


Yes. :
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #93 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

I have to say, there is something enormously depressing about listening to a lot of self satisfied tech oriented white boys explain how their college experience has proven that it's possible to live in marginal circumstances on little money, or simply assert that any and all are free to get a degree in computer sciences and start earning the big bucks. Is there something about being comfortable that deadens the imagination and impoverishes the spirit?

Yes.
.
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post #94 of 247
Addabox, you are overestimating many costs in your Santa Cruz calculations. I live here. My roommate and I actually calculated it out as we have discussed getting by on minimum wage before. Your calculations are entirely disingenuous.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #95 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Yes, obviously us elementary school teachers are ivory tower types who never mix with the general population. I'm about as in touch as you can get Jimmac. You just use your platitudes to avoid thinking. Phrases like "the tide is changing" though you can't say why, or "you are out of touch" even though I'm naming my own work and recent jobs and wage levels.



Actual, yes you do. Your own belief system has probably stopped you from becoming so yourself. You can't loath something and then complain that when you work towards, it doesn't happen. This self-undermining, self-loathing is one of the principle reasons why people do so poorly financially. You can't pretend to hate something, avoid it, and then complain that the result magically never happened for you.

If I had a nickel for every time someone told me they hate the rich while sending their kids off to school sick because they can't afford to stay home for the day because of credit card bills, I could.....oh wait I do have a nickel for each time they've said it. Of course I only generate my wealth on a school teacher's salary with a stay-at-home wife. What the hell do I know. I only do what people declare is impossible.



While there might be the occasional bad egg who prey on others to get their wealth. Most gain it by being of service to others and saving them their own time and money. This is what Walmart does for example. They don't force 100 million customers there a week at gun point. They do so by continually enhancing the value of what people get for their money. Note I said value and not price. If someone feels that they can get a better value elsewhere, they will go there. Walmart stock is down this year in part because like Dell, price isn't the only factor people consider in a buying decision. Target has had faster sales growth because in addition to being inexpensive, they also manage some stylistic flair. (Like Apple as well) So Walmart is attempting to go a bit more upscale and add value instead of just subtracting price. We will see if it works for them but either way, it isn't predatory, tt is service.



You don't live in reality. You loath reality. You live in a world where those who achieve are cheaters and the losers are really the winners. You live in a world where every dollar earned by someone richer than you should be given away and every dollar you earn more than the poor is cause for guilt. I would hate living with such beliefs.



So find it abhorrent. We give assistance even to working folks because we want to insure work is rewarded over pure welfare. Before such measures were signed work was penalized because taking the smallest job meant losing every benefit. Now we try to do a bit of a compromise where as you move up the bottom rungs of that ladder the assistance you previously relied EXCLUSIVELY on are not just ripped away, but drop off progressively as you become more capable and self-sufficient.

The most hilarious thing about this is that none of this assistance is counted as income when we calculate our wage and wealth gaps. Someone can be receiving the EITC, Section 8 housing assistance and food stamps and none of that is income. They can earn $12,000 and receive another $12,000 in benefits and we still state that they somehow had to feed their children on only $12,000 a year when in fact there was $24,000 worth of spending and money that went through the household.

That is something I find abhorrent, so the favor is returned.



That immaculate conception thing is a bitch isn't it? I think we should help anyone who has a child via immaculate conception. All the others planned sex so they planned possible kids. We give women dozens of options of both avoiding and then terminating the pregnancy. Men are pretty much screwed.

Nick

Nick you don't know anything about me.


About rich. I have a very close friend who could be considered rich. She inherited her wealth ( about 5 million ) from her mom and dad. When she was young they were very poor. Her father worked very hard as an investment councilor. He saved every penny.
He was a nice guy who helped people with a service. That kind of rich I don't mind at all.

However big faceless corporations that make themselves richer by cutting the bottom line ( their workers ) I do mind a great deal.

About me. No I'm not rich. I'm what I would call well off. I own 2 houses ( both paid for ). One belonged to my parents and one they lived in when they were building the new one where I currently live. My family has owned property here for 100 years. For me things kind of fell into place but I'm not rich. I rent the one house and work at a local college where I make a decent salary. I really have no complaints. I've never been in a place where I was angry at the rich for something that didn't work out for me personally. So please stop with the amature psychoanalyses.

I do get angry when I see big corporations taking advantage of the little guy.

About children. I don't know how many times I've heard of people taking every precaution and guess what? Besides people make mistakes. Have you been so perfect in your life?

About the times changing. It's no big mystery. These things are largly cyclic in nature. Parties and attitudes fall out of fashion. Right now people out there are very tired of conservative rhetoric. The fact that we've had many years of a conservative screw-up like Bush just furthers it along. I see by your profile that you're at least in your 30's. Surely you've seen some of this before o' knower of all things.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #96 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski

We are not talking about the occasional "unplanned pregnancy". We are talking about a culture of carelessness and ignorance. We are talking about a culture void of personal responsibility.

Were talking about somtimes people make mistakes.

And moe as a teenager you know all about this?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #97 of 247
If you teach them these things in schools they will know.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #98 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR

If you teach them these things in schools they will know.

Will they?

They had this stuff in what used to be called " health class " in my junior high days. That was in the mid 1960's.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #99 of 247
Anyway this is a really lame attempt at firing a shot across the bow of the democrats.

But if you have little or no ammo this is the kind of thing you get.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #100 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Were talking about somtimes people make mistakes.

And moe at as a teenager you know all about this?

Come down to Houston jimac, I'll take you for a walk through Katrina row. (Note to lefties: this is where you fire off your pre-programmed knee-jerk allegations of racism)
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #101 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski

Come down to Houston jimac, I'll take you for a walk through Katrina row. (Note to lefties: this is where you fire off your pre-programmed knee-jerk allegations of racism)

Nah! just more of a reminder of how big a screw-up Bush is.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #102 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Will they?

They had this stuff in what used to be called " health class " in my junior high days. That was in the mid 1960's.

Yeah, we had health class in the early 90s too. However, it was craptacular. Make people understand the economic impact of having kids and make sure to teach them about all the forms of birth control.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #103 of 247
Thread Starter 
Adda, what I can't figure out is how you belittle people for not being able to get by on that amount and then post assumptions that make it clear you have never had to live in that fashion. I have so let me help you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

Average rents for a 2 bedroom apt. in Santa Cruz are around $1400. The low end of 1 bedroom rentals is $1000. So figure on $500 if your "roommate" or yourself sleeps in the living room.

If you are on minimum, why would you assume you get your own room? You double up two to a room. This reduces your supposed $500 to a mere $350.

Quote:
Average single person health insurance premiums in California stood at $300/month as of 2004 and is rising rapidly, and that's for lower end coverage with higher out of pocket expenses and generally doesn't include dental care. So if we want an at least semi-real world figure that includes at least one checkup a year, one prescription medicine and a teeth cleaning (I guess we'll just hope our plucky wage earner has 20/20 vision), figure on $400/mnth. Of course, in the real world, most minimum wage earners forgo health insurance entirely and rely on emergency room services for pretty much everything.

Our you could get a policy that covers catastrophic events and do the mundane meds and checkups out of pocket. There are any number of free or reduced cost clinics available out there. Speaking to the topic, Walmart is testing types of basic clinics in their stores that address this exact sort of need.

You can get your teeth cleans at any dental assistant school for free.

Quote:
No car, better be careful where you take a job. Blithely assuming public transport gets you everywhere you want to go is a luxury of people who aren't obliged to use it. But let's figure you can take a couple of buses and walk some to get to work. Might take an hour or two each way, but that's time to work on your plan to better yourself.

Santa Cruz bus fares are $1.50 per ride, no transfers, so you're going to want to get a $50 monthly pass.

The first thing you've gotten right. Also you aren't getting some sort of skilled job that demands a commute to justify the high wage. Minimum wage jobs should be available fairly close.

Quote:
Now we're going to need a few more things. Toiletries (I am allowed toilet paper, soap, toothpaste, shampoo, etc., right?), clothes, odds and ends, maybe even the occasional wild extravagance like a newspaper. Let's be stern with our shiftless no-account of a loser and figure another $25/month for everything else.

Sounds reasonable.

Quote:
So let's see here: $500 rent, $400 health insurance/expenses, $100 utilities, $50 transportation, $300 food, $25 sundries. $1375 month. Uh oh, somethings gotta give, or I'm homeless.

Except we've already shown how your figures are off. Blue Shield for example offers the type of plan I mentioned for under $50 a month. In fact your food figure is insanely off. I could eat out three times a day at $5 a meal for 20 days with your costs. Eating in costs much less than this. Soups are cheap. Sandwiches are cheap. Tuna and Mac and Cheese are cheap. I'm going to be generous and assume that $200 would easily cover food if you eat in. I know I could still get by for less than that.

$350 Rent
$ 50 Health Insurance
$100 Utilities
$ 50 transportation
$200 food
$ 25 sundries

I'm at $775 and California minimum wage is $6.75 an hour. We are discussing California prices so it is fair to use that wage. Full-time puts me at $1080 a month which knocks down to an even $1000 after paying Social Security and knock another $60 a month for Medicare payments so we are at $940.

That leaves me nearly $200 a month with which to build my future even at the lowest possible rung. I'm granting some of these figures. I know I could get them lower because I HAVE in the past.

Quote:
Oh, and we can't miss a day. Ever. Or we're screwed. Minimum wage jobs aren't exactly famous for their generous sick leave and vacation packages, are they?

Well you can also work more than 40 hours when you aren't sick and bank the overtime pay for the days when you are sick.

Quote:
So how am I supposed to climb the ladder, again?

You're right. With your expectations, you probably never will.

Quote:
I have to say, there is something enormously depressing about listening to a lot of self satisfied tech oriented white boys explain how their college experience has proven that it's possible to live in marginal circumstances on little money, or simply assert that any and all are free to get a degree in computer sciences and start earning the big bucks. Is there something about being comfortable that deadens the imagination and impoverishes the spirit?

This tech-oriented white boy might be comfortable now but once upon a time was struggling to afford state school, sharing bedrooms in the cheapest apartments available and still ended up living in his car for about three months across six years. You have no ideal about the assumptions you make and how insulting they happen to be. I don't hold myself more capable and I don't hold those who need to do this today as incapable. It can, has and will be done. You shouldn't have to do it forever and even the slightest motivation or desire to tolerate anything other than flexible hours with little physical exertion in mild environments moves you well beyond minimum wage.

To put it bluntly, I don't know a day laborer that can be hired for less than $10 an hour but then they will do physical labor outdoors.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #104 of 247
Although I am a fan of the Randian philosophy trumptman seems to be following (Mr. Galt, is that you?) I thought I might add a couple of points for discussion that seemed to be overlooked.

It is possible for a wealthy entity to be detrimental to the community and society at large, we know this and have made laws regarding these things.

Take Microsoft for example, everyone knows how bad they are right, predatory business practices, bullying OEMs etc. you can read it all in the Findings of Fact against Microsoft which is available around the web.

But what we tend to forget about Microsoft is that they really made the personal computer revolution possible for the middle and lower classes. If their operating system had never been released for generic computers, most likely we would still be paying arbitrary premiums for propietary computer systems. When I was a kid, I dreamed of owning a computer, now thanks to competition in the marketplace and improved efficiency of production all around, the price has been lowered to the point where I couldn't dream of living without a computer.

So we can see on one hand that Microsoft has produced wealth, and many people around the world use their products to create wealth everyday, does that give them a free pass to do as they please when it comes to conducting business?

Of course not, anti-competitive business practices are dangerous because a business that has successfully engaged in these practices and eliminated their competition, no longer has an incentive to innovate and we as a society (which I should add, supports and makes possible such a business to exist) cease to benefit.

So, we can see that there are laws governing business and we as a society consider it important that these laws are followed during the conduct of business.

So, if Wal-mart gives an individual 39 hours of work to avoid paying benefits, not only are they depriving that individual of what our society says should be provided to a full time employee of a company, but they are openly flaunting our laws at us. How would it look if they gave out 39 hours, 59 minutes, and 59 seconds?

In fact by the philosophy being discussed here, it would actually be more advantageous to the individual if Wal-mart just said "We'll give you whatever hours you want, but you can't have any benefits". So a person working 40 hours would at least have another $10 in their pocket at the end of the week, which is better than no $10.

But we as a society have made laws governing the employment of persons and how they should be fairly treated. If Wal-mart doesn't like them then perhaps they should go through the correct channels for changing laws rather than simply disrespecting our laws and violating their intent.

As far as driving out inefficient Mom and Pop stores etc. The issue there is really that they are taking more money out of the community than they are putting back in. Presumably, a successful local business that hires many employees and pays them properly will be recycling money back into the community. Wal-mart on the other hand, only puts (minimium wage x number of employees) back into the community and requires less employees to serve a larger community due to their super efficient logistics and customer service.
post #105 of 247
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Nick you don't know anything about me.

Of course I know plenty about you. You are Bizarro-Trumptman.

Quote:
About rich. I have a very close friend who could be considered rich. She inherited her wealth ( about 5 million ) from her mom and dad. When she was young they were very poor. Her father worked very hard as an investment councilor. He saved every penny.
He was a nice guy who helped people with a service. That kind of rich I don't mind at all.

I find this so funny. We really are polar opposites on things. I haven't met an "investment/financial counselor" that I didn't consider to be a con artist.

Quote:
However big faceless corporations that make themselves richer by cutting the bottom line ( their workers ) I do mind a great deal.

I think it much harder to provide a product and make a profit than to offer advice (good or bad) for a fee. So again, I draw the opposite conclusion as you.

Quote:
About me. No I'm not rich. I'm what I would call well off. I own 2 houses ( both paid for ). One belonged to my parents and one they lived in when they were building the new one where I currently live. My family has owned property here for 100 years. For me things kind of fell into place but I'm not rich. I rent the one house and work at a local college where I make a decent salary. I really have no complaints. I've never been in a place where I was angry at the rich for something that didn't work out for me personally. So please stop with the amature psychoanalyses.

It isn't amateur psychoanalysis. I'm simply stating that people like yourself complain about the rich don't seem to have much experience with actually making money. You state yourself that your own assets are basically historical. I'm glad you are comfortable. It doesn't change the fact that a job cannot be paid above the value it provides to the corporation. To suggest that it can or must reflects a mindset of guilt rather than reason.

Quote:
I do get angry when I see big corporations taking advantage of the little guy.

Unfortunately you consider profit to equal exploitation. That simply isn't true.

Quote:
About children. I don't know how many times I've heard of people taking every precaution and guess what? Besides people make mistakes. Have you been so perfect in your life?

I haven't been perfect. The difference is that I don't demand others pay for my mistakes. I don't use my mistakes as a claim.

Quote:
About the times changing. It's no big mystery. These things are largly cyclic in nature. Parties and attitudes fall out of fashion. Right now people out there are very tired of conservative rhetoric. The fact that we've had many years of a conservative screw-up like Bush just furthers it along. I see by your profile that you're at least in your 30's. Surely you've seen some of this before o' knower of all things.

I have but the facts still come into play. The "trend" is people coming up with new rationales as to why the facts no longer apply. Internet bubble for example had people claiming that stock valuations didn't have to be based off financials anymore. That turned out not to be true. Housing bubble now popping is much the same way. Multiples of income are what people really can afford in a house and not funny make-believe financing that occurs now. You can see it in entertainment when an ideal has been run out too long and the third rate talent is what is now trying to push a rope.

I try to follow politics objectively and have a pretty decent record on the matter. I've even put my money where my mouth is with BRussell. Democrats really do not believe in the coastal big media bias and then wonder why their figures always end up inflated with regard to polls. The biggest mover of voters is usually financial problems, justified or not. I haven't seen that happen here. I suspect the byline election night will be that everyone stayed home and Republicans had a better mechanism of turning out their base in a massive show of voter apathy. I do think they will lose seats, but not enough to swing their majorities.

I'm really interested in the Santorum race which many polls have showed narrowing to 5-8 points. I think this will be a really interesting midterm.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #106 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR

$400 a month for rent with a roommate, $100 in utilities, $300 in food, $100 in health insurance, no need for a car when using public transit. Sorry dude but the numbers work. It's not great, but it works.

Where's the money you'll be paying for public transportation? It's $2 a ticket here in Chicago, and no transfers are offered. Include that in your total.

Also, what are you gonna wear? You didn't include that.

Also, any other products except food? Hygiene products?
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #107 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Clean

Where's the money you'll be paying for public transportation? It's $2 a ticket here in Chicago, and no transfers are offered. Include that in your total.

Also, what are you gonna wear? You didn't include that.

Also, any other products except food? Hygiene products?

Trumpet put together a more detailed breakdown that I am in 100% agreement with. Check that one out.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #108 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Adda, what I can't figure out is how you belittle people for not being able to get by on that amount and then post assumptions that make it clear you have never had to live in that fashion. I have so let me help you.

You don't know shit about me or what my life has involved. Kindly STFU.

Quote:
If you are on minimum, why would you assume you get your own room? You double up two to a room. This reduces your supposed $500 to a mere $350.

Well, hell, why not make it 3 to a room, barracks style, and save a little more? Except that housing is tight, and landlords don't like to rent to the squad when they can rent to to nice "one person to a bedroom" people. What's that? It never occurred to you that people of little means might face obstacles beyond their diminished purchasing power? Knock me over with a feather.

Quote:
Our you could get a policy that covers catastrophic events and do the mundane meds and checkups out of pocket.

You mean the kind with a $2,000 yearly deductible and sharply constrained options? Yeah, just don't get hurt or sick. I'm sure the working poor can suck it up, if they really have a will to succeed.

Quote:
There are any number of free or reduced cost clinics available out there. Speaking to the topic, Walmart is testing types of basic clinics in their stores that address this exact sort of need.

Really? "Any number"? Do you just really really like the sound of your voice emerging from your ass?

There used to be free clinics, most of them are gone, victims of lost federal and state funding, which I'm sure you approve of.

Quote:
You can get your teeth cleans at any dental assistant school for free.

Just don't have a cavity or need any dental work. Hey, quit your bellyaching, you're way ahead of a third world peasant, which is the new baseline for life in these United States. Well, way ahead for now.


Quote:
Except we've already shown how your figures are off. Blue Shield for example offers the type of plan I mentioned for under $50 a month.

Interestingly, using the phrase "we've already shown" doesn't magically impart scholarly veracity to talking out of your ass. Blue Cross California offers the $2,000 deductible deal I mentioned above.

Quote:
In fact your food figure is insanely off. I could eat out three times a day at $5 a meal for 20 days with your costs. Eating in costs much less than this. Soups are cheap. Sandwiches are cheap. Tuna and Mac and Cheese are cheap. I'm going to be generous and assume that $200 would easily cover food if you eat in. I know I could still get by for less than that.

Not "my figure", just carrying forward the figure given in the post I was responding to.


Quote:
I'm at $775 and California minimum wage is $6.75 an hour. We are discussing California prices so it is fair to use that wage. Full-time puts me at $1080 a month which knocks down to an even $1000 after paying Social Security and knock another $60 a month for Medicare payments so we are at $940.

That leaves me nearly $200 a month with which to build my future even at the lowest possible rung. I'm granting some of these figures. I know I could get them lower because I HAVE in the past.

Wheeeee! It's fun to make little mud pies out of other people lives, isn't it? By golly, you get to spend $350 a month on housing in fucking Santa Cruz, you will never get sick, you will have no unexpected expenses, and you will eat nothing but starch and beans, but, dammit, that's plenty good enough! I mean, your not homeless quite yet, and, sure, if something does go wrong and you miss the rent you do end up homeless, but, you know: suck it up.

Quote:
Well you can also work more than 40 hours when you aren't sick and bank the overtime pay for the days when you are sick.

If they need you. If not, you can maybe take another one of those non-critical probably work nearby bus rides. Do the 6am to 10pm thing. Builds character, and leaves plenty of time for betterment. After all, at the blistering pace of being able to save a few dollars a month, maybe, if nothing goes wrong, why, you'll only have to do that for 20 years or so until you can "pull a NIck" and get you some of that tasty investment property.

Quote:
You're right. With your expectations, you probably never will.

Oh dear lord. You can't be....... oh, never mind.


Quote:
This tech-oriented white boy might be comfortable now but once upon a time was struggling to afford state school, sharing bedrooms in the cheapest apartments available and still ended up living in his car for about three months across six years. You have no ideal about the assumptions you make and how insulting they happen to be. I don't hold myself more capable and I don't hold those who need to do this today as incapable. It can, has and will be done. You shouldn't have to do it forever and even the slightest motivation or desire to tolerate anything other than flexible hours with little physical exertion in mild environments moves you well beyond minimum wage.

Christ. You lived like everybody lives going to college, two to a room, scraping by. Big fucking deal. And this searing story of rags to riches entitles you to condemn people to a lifetime of penury? Really, you must be an inspiration to family and loved ones.

Quote:
To put it bluntly, I don't know a day laborer that can be hired for less than $10 an hour but then they will do physical labor outdoors.

Hear that, poor people. Don't be old, female or infirm! Yes, I know that diet of starch and beans and the constant, grueling slog hasn't left you exactly sprightly, but let's see some of that can do spirit! Remember, there are Sri Lankan peasants that would find your circumstances quite luxurious!

So I don't even understand what you're arguing for. You say you overcame hardship and made something of yourself, so you want to make sure that it stays as hard as possible for anyone else who, by dint of capacity or circumstances of birth, don't have access to education, capital or options?

You go through all these contorted math exercises too "prove" that maybe, just maybe, if everything skews just right, a full time minimum wage earner might be able to just barely scrape by. What possible reason, beyond your customary knee-jerking, could you have for that?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #109 of 247
Shopping wisely, $200 a month can go very very far beyond starch and beans.

By the way, I'm paying $105 a month for health insurance through Costco for Pacificare PPO with $1500 deductible. It's not a bad deal at all.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #110 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR

Yeah, we had health class in the early 90s too. However, it was craptacular. Make people understand the economic impact of having kids and make sure to teach them about all the forms of birth control.

Knowing how things usaually go I'm guessing it's still that way.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #111 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Of course I know plenty about you. You are Bizarro-Trumptman.



I find this so funny. We really are polar opposites on things. I haven't met an "investment/financial counselor" that I didn't consider to be a con artist.



I think it much harder to provide a product and make a profit than to offer advice (good or bad) for a fee. So again, I draw the opposite conclusion as you.



It isn't amateur psychoanalysis. I'm simply stating that people like yourself complain about the rich don't seem to have much experience with actually making money. You state yourself that your own assets are basically historical. I'm glad you are comfortable. It doesn't change the fact that a job cannot be paid above the value it provides to the corporation. To suggest that it can or must reflects a mindset of guilt rather than reason.



Unfortunately you consider profit to equal exploitation. That simply isn't true.



I haven't been perfect. The difference is that I don't demand others pay for my mistakes. I don't use my mistakes as a claim.



I have but the facts still come into play. The "trend" is people coming up with new rationales as to why the facts no longer apply. Internet bubble for example had people claiming that stock valuations didn't have to be based off financials anymore. That turned out not to be true. Housing bubble now popping is much the same way. Multiples of income are what people really can afford in a house and not funny make-believe financing that occurs now. You can see it in entertainment when an ideal has been run out too long and the third rate talent is what is now trying to push a rope.

I try to follow politics objectively and have a pretty decent record on the matter. I've even put my money where my mouth is with BRussell. Democrats really do not believe in the coastal big media bias and then wonder why their figures always end up inflated with regard to polls. The biggest mover of voters is usually financial problems, justified or not. I haven't seen that happen here. I suspect the byline election night will be that everyone stayed home and Republicans had a better mechanism of turning out their base in a massive show of voter apathy. I do think they will lose seats, but not enough to swing their majorities.

I'm really interested in the Santorum race which many polls have showed narrowing to 5-8 points. I think this will be a really interesting midterm.

Nick

Are you sure you're not the one with the overly square jaw?

One thing I don't think we'll see again is voter apathy.

Good luck on that last one.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #112 of 247
If people can't live on Walmart's wages, why do they always line up around the block to work there each time one opens up?
Mac user since before you were born.
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Mac user since before you were born.
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post #113 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead

If people can't live on Walmart's wages, why do they always line up around the block to work there each time one opens up?

Because the lines for CEO of a fortune 500 company are getting harder and harder to find?
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #114 of 247
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Are you sure you're not the one with the overly square jaw?

One thing I don't think we'll see again is voter apathy.

Good luck on that last one.

Voter apathy is what happens in years when there is no presidential contest. I suspect that the voter rate will be a bit below 38-39%.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #115 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Voter apathy is what happens in years when there is no presidential contest. I suspect that the voter rate will be a bit below 38-39%.

Nick

Your post got me wondering how lowering the voting age to 18 in 1971 plays into claims about voter apathy. Interesting piece here about it from one of the top political science journals.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #116 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead

If people can't live on Walmart's wages, why do they always line up around the block to work there each time one opens up?

Because almost any job is better than no job???
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #117 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Who said it has to be a good deal?

I didn't say BR called minimum wage a "good deal." I said it wasn't as good a deal as he imagines.

There's a difference.
post #118 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

I didn't say BR called minimum wage a "good deal." I said it wasn't as good a deal as he imagines.

There's a difference.

I don't imagine it's a good deal at all. However, it is workable. And honestly, to think that you have to spend more than a year at that minimum wage is kinda silly. Even the most craptacular fast food jobs have room for advancement.

I think the minimum wage should be raised slowly over the next few years but forcing companies to provide benefits to all of its workers will only raise prices for the consumer and cause layoffs to cover the rest of the difference.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #119 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Voter apathy is what happens in years when there is no presidential contest. I suspect that the voter rate will be a bit below 38-39%.

Nick

Well I hate to bring this up Trumpy but you just contradicted yourself in your other post. You know. When you talked about things not being the norm.

" I have but the facts still come into play. The "trend" is people coming up with new rationales as to why the facts no longer apply. Internet bubble for example had people claiming that stock valuations didn't have to be based off financials anymore. "

Back 1999 the people were turned off to Clinton because he lied. The result was a republican president. Knowing that ahead of time was really a no brainer. Now people are turned off to Bush because of his screw-ups. He'd have to do something extrodinary to change that image in 2 years. The other republicans in government are doing about the same. What do you think the result will be?

You also mentioned voting on the financial aspect of the country. Well ever since the recession " That wasn't such a bad recession " there have been quite a number of little things that kept the picture from shall we say rosy. Little things like this http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/28/news...ages/index.htm

Midwinter. That was an interesting take in that article also.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #120 of 247
I love how everyone's disected what a minimum wage earner needs in order to survive. Yet no one takes into consideration the small things in life that make it worth living.

Like going on a date.
Or renting an occassional DVD.
Or needing to buy a television.
Or a pair of shoes.
Or some new pants to wear to that shit job.
Or getting a haircut so the boss will stop bitching that it's over the collar.
Or god forbid you need to buy a pair of glasses so you can see.
And let's not talk about needing a new/used iMac or paying for Internet access.

That extra $175 left over from paying the basics suddenly doesn't go to far, does it?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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