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SLI in Mac Pro. It's True Onlooker!! - Page 2

post #41 of 145
I was hoping new cards would would start incorporating dual compatibility with EFI and BIOS. Isn't there a few that are doing that already?
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post #42 of 145
I was thinking about the new PC cards using EFI the other day. And then it occurred to me that this probably still won't allow those cards that are aimed at Windows to work correctly with OSX. The problem is that OSX uses the card differently than Windows and even though you might get video displayed on the OSX screen, the OSX drivers won't work correctly.

All you have to do to suspect this is to look at the x86OSX (Hackintoshers) project. Ya know, this is where they get OSX to Boot on a BIOS based Intel PC which uses BIOS based PC graphics cards. The major problem these people are STILL having is that the OSX video drivers will not work with the PC ROM that's on the PC cards.

So it appears that even if you get around the fact that a normal OSX install is only going to work with EFI equipped video cards, apparently, the standard OSX video drivers are only going to work correctly with Mac based EFI ROMs. So it looks like we will still be screwed when it comes to having a large choice of PC video cards to choose from
post #43 of 145
Firstoff, if Apple does something differently from PC EFI cards, somebody can just rip the firmware off an Apple card and then you can flash it onto any PC EFI card you buy.

But I think Apple won't do anything that different to its cards, and as long as they have drivers you should be able to run a standard PC EFI card in the Mac.
post #44 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

Firstoff, if Apple does something differently from PC EFI cards, somebody can just rip the firmware off an Apple card and then you can flash it onto any PC EFI card you buy...

Apple does do something different to their cards. When's the last time you saw an OEM Apple card with S-Video or VIVO ports? All the PC cards have S-Video and many have VIVO. Also, Apple does DVI output differently. One of the hardest obstacles in flashing a PC card is having the DVI output work. I'm about to try flashing a PC ATI x850 to a Mac x850 and I know that the DVI out will not work, for now. And this is after the Strangedogs specialist have been working on the Mac x800-850 ROM for over a year.

I haven't seen or heard of any PC EFI cards yet, but you'd better hope that they have 128kb ROM chips on them. That's because the Apple ROM used with the NV 7300s have a ROM dump size of over 100kb. Most PC cards have a ROM chip size of 64kb. And even if you could simply flash the Mac ROM to a PC card, I have serious doubts that it would work correctly without modifying the Mac ROM. And I'm talking about flashing a PC card that's the exact same model as an existing Mac card, not just any EFI PC card you can buy.

From my flashing experience, I just don't think that PC cards going to EFI is going to solve the Mac video card problem. And I don't think Apple is going to solve the problem by releasing new OSX video drivers to work with those PC EFI cards either, considering that it would make hacking OSX to run on generic PC machines just that much easier.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what shakes out
post #45 of 145
Apple uses standard EFI firmware and standard PC components. I can't see what the hell could be weird. Nothing special.
post #46 of 145
Will a 7950 GX2 work in a Mac Pro?
post #47 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

Apple uses standard EFI firmware and standard PC components. I can't see what the hell could be weird. Nothing special.

According to a guy at MacNN who did a ROM dump, they use the double ROMs again.

Yes: GX2 wil run under Windows in a Mac Pro. Not under OS X though.
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post #48 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by theapplegenius

According to a guy at MacNN who did a ROM dump, they use the double ROMs again.

Yes: GX2 wil run under Windows in a Mac Pro. Not under OS X though.

What does this mean?
post #49 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

What does this mean?

It means you can do more on your mac in XP than you can in OS X.
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post #50 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

What does this mean?

It means you can use a 7950GX2 card in a Mac Pro when if you boot up in Windows XP. There are a few people on the net that claimed they've done it. Of course if you boot MacOS X on a Mac Pro with a 7950GX2 in a PCI-e slot it'll kernel panic since there are no drivers for the card in MacOS X.
post #51 of 145
Apple is ready for a graphics driver update. At least for a few cards. WTF!!!!!!!
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post #52 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

What does this mean?

The old PPC ROMs were twice the size of the regular cards. I think 128k instead of 64k. If this is true, that means that Apple is up to their old bullshit again.
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post #53 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by theapplegenius

The old PPC ROMs were twice the size of the regular cards. I think 128k instead of 64k. If this is true, that means that Apple is up to their old bullshit again.

it's true.
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post #54 of 145
"Bullshit"? If having far superior technology is "bullshit", then yes, count me in.
post #55 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

"Bullshit"? If having far superior technology is "bullshit", then yes, count me in.

Far superior to whom? Intel? Oh wait...Apple makes the same shit as everyone else now.
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post #56 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by theapplegenius

Far superior to whom? Intel? Oh wait...Apple makes the same shit as everyone else now.

Uh, EFI (and OpenFirmware) to BIOS.
post #57 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

Uh, EFI (and OpenFirmware) to BIOS.

This isn't EFI. EFI has a compatibility layer for legacy BIOS parts. This is all Apple wanting to price gouge on their graphics cards again.
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post #58 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by theapplegenius

This isn't EFI. EFI has a compatibility layer for legacy BIOS parts. This is all Apple wanting to price gouge on their graphics cards again.

Can you prove that EFI has a compatibility layer for VESA/VGA BIOS? This is the first time I've herad of it. If it does, why do neither ATi nor nVidia offer a card that uses it? In fact, why do neither ATi nor nVidia just move all their cards to this miraculous compatibility layer, seeing as it would enable them to provide more features, without additional development costs, since it's, according to you, already in the EFI spec?

Or did you just want to slander Apple based on no knowledge at all?
post #59 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

Can you prove that EFI has a compatibility layer for VESA/VGA BIOS? This is the first time I've herad of it. If it does, why do neither ATi nor nVidia offer a card that uses it? In fact, why do neither ATi nor nVidia just move all their cards to this miraculous compatibility layer, seeing as it would enable them to provide more features, without additional development costs, since it's, according to you, already in the EFI spec?

Or did you just want to slander Apple based on no knowledge at all?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=223663

That alone tells me that EFI has a BIOS compatibility layer as the 7900GTX isn't an EFI card, oh, and that thing called Boot Camp. That uses the layer too.

Or did you just want to slander me based on no knowledge at all?
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post #60 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by theapplegenius

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=223663

That alone tells me that EFI has a BIOS compatibility layer as the 7900GTX isn't an EFI card,

Oh, I guess you must have missed the very first part of the first post in there, which said so eloquently:
Quote:
Although the Mac OS doesn't see this card at all (no video at startup)

Quote:
oh, and that thing called Boot Camp. That uses the layer too.

Not for video.
post #61 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

Oh, I guess you must have missed the very first part of the first post in there, which said so eloquently:

That's because of the double-roms. Like I said in my earlier post. iirc, the card *does* show up in OS X, but you can't use it in OS X.

Once hacked Mac Pro OS X comes around though, I could see that changing..
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post #62 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by theapplegenius

That's because of the double-roms.

The only card I know of that features a hybrid ROM is an ATi one with BIOS and OpenFirmware. I know of no card that supports both BIOS and EFI. I'm sure it's possible; I just don't believe ATi or nVidia have done it at this point.
post #63 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

...I know of no card that supports both BIOS and EFI...

I'm about 99% certain that the Apple 7300 does. I even made that assertion on the Strangedogs forum and none of the Mods has challenged it yet. Of course, they (Strangedogs Mods) haven't had the actual 7300 ROM very long, so they may not have had a chance to study it yet. But it's about the only way to explain the size of the ROM and the fact that it will boot a normal PC and a MacPro. It almost has to have a dual platform ROM.

It would also be safe to assume that a future PC Video card that supports both BIOS and EFI might have a 128kb ROM chip onboard rather than the standard 64kb one. But, the actual 'Meat' of the ROM code is not very large, so it might be possible that the PC Card makers might fit a Dual ROM on a standard 64kb ROM chip. Whereas, we know that the Apple Dual ROM 7300 uses a 128kb ROM chip.

It's still early, I'm interested in what the Strangedogs people have to say about the 7300 ROM
post #64 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB

I'm about 99% certain that the Apple 7300 does. I even made that assertion on the Strangedogs forum and none of the Mods has challenged it yet. Of course, they (Strangedogs Mods) haven't had the actual 7300 ROM very long, so they may not have had a chance to study it yet. But it's about the only way to explain the size of the ROM and the fact that it will boot a normal PC and a MacPro. It almost has to have a dual platform ROM.

The 7300 does, my friend popped his (from his mac pro) in his PC and it worked fine.

I think it was macrumors.com someone did a ROM dump and found 2 ROMs on the card.
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post #65 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead

The 7300 does, my friend popped his (from his mac pro) in his PC and it worked fine.

I think it was macrumors.com someone did a ROM dump and found 2 ROMs on the card.

That's a good sign.
post #66 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

That's a good sign.

Good in what way?


This is part of the reason that I believe that Apple has no intentions of allowing OSX to work with standard PC ROMs. They put a standard PC ROM on their OEM card and then coded OSX not to use it! They only want OSX to work with the Apple based EFI ROM. And when the PC card makers change to EFI cards, they will have the same basic PC ROM on them. The same basic PC ROM that Apple has coded OSX not to work with!

And then throw in the fact that the Hackintoshers have OSX booting and trying to use the standard PC ROM found on their PC video cards without success. Those people are actually now trying to rewrite the OSX video drivers to work with the standard PC ROM. They've been trying for over a year. And I have a very strong feeling that if Apple even allows the MacPro to boot from an EFI PC ROM video card, we'll find ourselves in the same position as the Hackintoshers. The standard OSX video drivers will not work with the standard PC ROM. And to quote one of the people at InsanelyMac, OSX without video acceleration is basically useless.

And if this is the same Slughead that made the post 'Newbie with a Mac Pro' at Strangedogs, you probably heard that from me. I'm Tbarr at Strangedogs
post #67 of 145
I always hope Mac users choose that platform because they're willing to break with a few norms and actually move forward one little step at the time, but every single time the graphics card discussion comes up, I'm presented with people who, rather, blindly defend a hacked, broken, non-standard technique from the late 70s / early 80s over two far superior, standardized but not as widely deplyoed, techniques from the early and mid-90s.
post #68 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB

Good in what way?


This is part of the reason that I believe that Apple has no intentions of allowing OSX to work with standard PC ROMs. They put a standard PC ROM on their OEM card and then coded OSX not to use it! They only want OSX to work with the Apple based EFI ROM. And when the PC card makers change to EFI cards, they will have the same basic PC ROM on them. The same basic PC ROM that Apple has coded OSX not to work with!

And then throw in the fact that the Hackintoshers have OSX booting and trying to use the standard PC ROM found on their PC video cards without success. Those people are actually now trying to rewrite the OSX video drivers to work with the standard PC ROM. They've been trying for over a year. And I have a very strong feeling that if Apple even allows the MacPro to boot from an EFI PC ROM video card, we'll find ourselves in the same position as the Hackintoshers. The standard OSX video drivers will not work with the standard PC ROM. And to quote one of the people at InsanelyMac, OSX without video acceleration is basically useless.

The Macvidia drivers work with 2d, and CoreImage/Quartz Extreme are almost done.

Anyway, does OS X authenticate with the EFI chip? Could one install the hacked 10.4.6 image w/o any cracks, and use a regular card with the Macvidia drivers like the Hackintoshes? It should install perfectly under the BIOS layer. I guess you'd just need the restore discs that came with the Mac Pro.
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post #69 of 145
You'd still risk having updates blow up on you. Your best bet would be to find a way to use TDM, and swap some files with hacked ones, then swap them back when you have to update. That's probably not very easy.
post #70 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

You'd still risk having updates blow up on you. Your best bet would be to find a way to use TDM, and swap some files with hacked ones, then swap them back when you have to update. That's probably not very easy.

But the Mac Pro still has the TPM chip. Anyone with a Mac Pro want to test this hypothesis?
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post #71 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB

And if this is the same Slughead that made the post 'Newbie with a Mac Pro' at Strangedogs, you probably heard that from me. I'm Tbarr at Strangedogs

Yep! Hello again!
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post #72 of 145
Man!

Right after I made that last post my ATI x850 Pro arrived. I've been hip deep ever since. I think I finally got it working, so, I need to go over to Strangedogs and post about it before I forget more than I already have 8)

I really don't know that much about Hackintoshers other than I stopped reading the install instructions after I read something about installing it on a BIOS based PC, on a disc image, or something like that. I just wanted to try and find out how they got OSX past the Black screen firmware (ROM) hangup.

Lots more playing to do with my new toy
post #73 of 145
Well now it makes me wonder if you can crossfire a pair of X1900XT's?

Needless to say I think it's obvious Apples MacPro is capable of using both SLI, and Crossfire, and Apple, and ATI should update their drivers for the MacPro. People shouldn't have to go through all this trouble for this.
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post #74 of 145
I don't think you can since only the XTX is available in a Crossfire model.
post #75 of 145
But you can soft-mod an XT into an XTX, so that might mean that the drivers are similar or identical
post #76 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB

The same basic PC ROM that Apple has coded OSX not to work with!

No, it's the fact that Mac OS X uses EFI and needs an EFI ROM.
post #77 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

No, it's the fact that Mac OS X uses EFI and needs an EFI ROM.

I know that. I meant assuming you could get EFI ROM onto an XTX Crossfire card, your XT might work because of the softmodding, and an XT ROM might work on an XTX since they're the same card.
post #78 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

No, it's the fact that Mac OS X uses EFI and needs an EFI ROM.

Aww come on, he was having so much fun with his ludicrous little conspiracy theory. 8)
post #79 of 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

I know that. I meant assuming you could get EFI ROM onto an XTX Crossfire card, your XT might work because of the softmodding, and an XT ROM might work on an XTX since they're the same card.

But the problem there is that the standard ATI ROM chip isn't big enough to fit both the BIOS and EFI ROMs; that's what's so custom about these X1900 XTs, they have extra-large ROM chips.
post #80 of 145
1) Ditch BIOS XT ROM
2) stitch CF part of XTX ROM onto XT
3) Get hybrid ROM onto XTX
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