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Apple issues new build of Leopard Preview - Page 3

post #81 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

And name ONE SINGLE LITTLE feature that OSX has over Windows. Please.

Bonjour.
post #82 of 157
Can't Windows do that too..
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post #83 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

OK.

You guys.

Antivirus is good.

But, like, GET OVER IT.

I've had a PC for years and haven't really been troubled by these so-called "viruses." If you're smart, you don't get them. That seems to be the ONLY thing Mac users ever think about. Even watching Apple commercials, it's like, VIRUSES ARE THE ONLY THING ANYONE TALKS ABOUT.

Forget viruses for a sec. What ELSE does Leopard have over Vista? (Don't try and pretend Apple invented file backups, cuz they didn't. Giving it some space background does NOT make it any better. Pretending this is somehow "insanely great" is just the sort of thing that gives Mac users a bad name.)

That's because you don't understand the difference between it, and what MS offers in its systems. It isn't just the visual interface, though that's nice. Read a little.
post #84 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

One good feature?

Here:

Windows ReadyBoost

It sounded like science fiction the first time I heard about it: Windows Vista includes a feature called ReadyBoost that lets you use a USB 2.0-based flash memory device--typically a USB memory key--to speed up the performance of virtually any Vista PC. After grinning like an idiot for an uncomfortable amount of time, I realized the Microsoft rep telling me about this feature was serious. Huh. Hmm.

Now, there are prerequisites, of course. The USB memory device must meet certain performance and storage characteristics (2.5MB/sec throughput for 4K random reads and 1.75MB/sec throughput for 512K random writes; 64 MB to 8 GB of free space; 256 MB of overall storage or more) which virtually no human being understands or knows how to discover. Don't worry about that stuff too much unless you're literally shopping for a new memory key: Just plug one of your exiting keys into a Vista machine and see if it works.

ReadyBoost works by augmenting your system's memory with the memory on the USB device. The first time you plug in a compatible device, the Vista AutoPlay dialog will present "Speed up my system" as an option (Figure). You can then access the Memory tab of the device's property sheet to determine how much storage space to set aside for ReadyBoost (Figure). Note that this storage will no longer be available for other uses (unless you format the device or change the properties in Vista). You can't use a single key on two or more Vista machines. You can't use two or more USB keys on one PC. And, yes, Vista will recommend how much to set aside. (It typically wants a lot of space, so it may be a good idea to dedicate a USB memory key entire to this project. Hey, they're cheap.)

Why is this good? With a typical desktop PC, it's not necessarily hard to add RAM, but that's not true of most notebooks, and in either case, you may be limited by technical ability and desire, corporate restrictions preventing you from mucking around with your system, or actual hardware limitations where you've already maxed out the system RAM. In any case, you can simply improve the performance of your system by plugging in a compatible USB memory key, configuring it, and getting back to work. Bliss.

There have been some concerns that ReadyBoost will shorten the lifespan of the USB memory key because they're only rated to a certain number of reads and writes. My attitude is, who cares? These things are cheap, and if you're wise, you'll dedicate one solely to this purpose. If it dies, it dies. Get another one. (Besides, Microsoft refutes these claims, noting that its research shows that you will get at ten or more years out of life using ReadyBoost.)

ReadyBoost will give the biggest improvements to low-RAM PCs and, of course, the more storage on the key the matter. Adding a 1 GB USB memory key to a PC with 512 MB of RAM (ugh) will provide dramatic results. Adding the same key to a PC with 4 GB of RAM, well, not so much.

So the bottom line is this. ReadyBoost is a set-it-and-forget-it feature with no downsides at all, a small financial outlay (assuming you don't have a compatible key sitting around; I understand they come in cereal boxes now), and it delivers a nice performance boost. Who could ask for more?

The joke about ReadyBoost amongst the PC commumity is that Vista needs it to just function at a usable level.

Flash isn't meant to be written to more than about 100,000 times, after that it can begin to fail. But, that sounds just about right.
post #85 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

The eye candy is just as good as OSX, too. It's even 3D eye candy.

So come on.

What does Leopard HAVE that Vista DOES NOT HAVE?

Name something worthwhile. Seriously.

The PC community has also been complaining about how badly that has been done.

Can't you come up with something real?
post #86 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

Please remember, though, that I am myself a MAC USER. I LIKE MACS BETTER. But I am just trying to point out some of the cool things in Windows Vista, and it bugs me when everyone gets all sarcastic and negative rather than admitting that Windows actually has good points, not JUST bad.

You're not a real Mac user, because you haven't bothered to find out anything about the features, which are right on Apple's site.

Actually, you don't understand much about Vista's feature's either. Oops! They had to remove all of them.
post #87 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

Can't Windows do that too..

No.

And for what it's worth, your response should have been "ah, but Windows has Previous Versions! Mac OS X doesn't have that!".
post #88 of 157
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #89 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLL

Sure it can:

http://www.apple.com/support/downloa...indows103.html

Since when does that ship with Windows? turnwrite wanted to hear a feature Mac OS has over Windows; this is one. Obviously, you can extend Windows to have more features through third-party products, just as you can do the same for Mac OS with third-party products.
post #90 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

The eye candy is just as good as OSX, too. It's even 3D eye candy.

So come on.

What does Leopard HAVE that Vista DOES NOT HAVE?

Name something worthwhile. Seriously.

First of all, I'm not a naysayer wrt to Vista. I think it looks good overall, despite some shameless, ah, "inspiration" from OS X. It's still Windows, of course, which means 57 control panels and *lots* of wizards and letter drives and a sort of bland, cheesy corporate feel to the whole thing, but it's a serious challenge to Apple with "Windows iLife" (1.0, anyway) bundled in and it looks like it's going to be a much improved OS over XP. I look forward to trying it out.

That said. It's pretty clear that Apple is keeping quite a few of cards secret because they don't want MS to copy them at the last minute -- or they're not 100% done -- or both. So we're not going to find out what Leopard really consists of until (I suspect) MWSF in January.

Right now: over Vista, Leopard offers Time Machine (a much slicker way of handling backups than Vista's "Previous Files", and quite innovative in the way it ties directly to the application), nifty-looking, Exposé-savvy virtual desktops (Spaces), screen-sharing in iChat (very useful and cool!), and systemwide to-dos.

And OS X still offers a simpler, more elegant UI... but that's my opinion of course.

Is that enough? Not even close. I think there'll be much more to come.
post #91 of 157
I'm at a bit of a disadvantage since I haven't followed Vista much but here's a few that come to mind:

Write a PDF file from any app.
Run any of the wonderful OmniGroup software.
Automator
Seemless use of multiple displays
post #92 of 157
A couple more:

FW target disk mode
boot from FW HD
drop to unix shell
post #93 of 157
Here's a fairly typical review of Vista RC 1. Some reviews are better, and some worse, but this is pretty much average.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34268
post #94 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

Here's a fairly typical review of Vista RC 1. Some reviews are better, and some worse, but this is pretty much average.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34268

No, that's about as absurdly harsh a review as you're going to find.

The Inquirer is a well-known sourpuss rag. Same goes for their acidic articles on Apple.

Here's an actually average report on Vista RC1.
post #95 of 157
Supports EFI (on Intel) & OpenFirmware (on PPC) both vastly superior to BIOS
Core Video
Core Audio
Core Data
Core Animation
Unified 64 bit and 32 bit system (i.e., you don't get either a 32 bit version or a 64 bit version. You can mix 32 bit and 64 bit device drivers. This is very, very significant and not a minor achievement on Apple's part; I'm surprised more hasn't been made of this)
ColourSync
Keychain (don't know if Vista has an equivalent)

The thing is, on the whole, I don't really care about which OS has more features, or who came up with what first. The important thing is which OS implements the features you need the best. For me, that is OS X by far.
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post #96 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

One good feature?

Here:

Windows ReadyBoost

You are joking, right?

Windows ReadyBoost is a press-release marketing feature with no real merit. If it does give a significant performance boost to Vista, all it does is highlight that Vista's virtual memory implementation is highly odd and probably deeply flawed.

USB sticks are slower, and lower capacity, than Hard Drives. Using a USB stick as a store for virtual memory is a ridiculously bad idea.
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post #97 of 157
Honestly, the best thing about Vista is that brings Windows up to speed (mostly) with OS X... all in one huge release.

The stuff it adds for consumers that Tiger doesn't have -- you can count on one hand. Parental controls, better file recovery.... um.... that's about it.

But the best thing about Vista is also the worst thing. It's a monster of a release, and MS's struggles with it have been very visible. They'll be working out the bugs and compatibility kinks for some time to come.
post #98 of 157
C'mon guys...let turnwrite wallow in his misery. Why do you all feel compelled to show evidence that OS X has superior features? We have nothing to prove.
post #99 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes

Honestly, the best thing about Vista is that brings Windows up to speed with OS X... all in one huge release.

The stuff it adds for consumers that Tiger doesn't have -- you can can count on one hand. Parental controls, better file recovery.... um.... that's about it.

But the best thing about Vista is also the worst thing. It's a monster of a release, and MS's struggles with it have been very apparent. They'll be working out the bugs and compatibility kinks for some time to come.

Parental control has been around for awhile in OS X. They're definitely there in Tiger and were there in some form in Panther and Jaguar (although they weren't called Parental Control back then.)
post #100 of 157
Vista has much better parental controls, with the ability to limit the time one uses specific apps, instead of just blocking them completely.

Of course, Leopard will have this too.
post #101 of 157
Hm. Spaces. "Innovative?" Are you JOKING? Linux has had that for HOW many years....?

Automatic file backups is another idea that is HARDLY new.. Perhaps Apple's approach is slightly different from what other people are doing, but not hugely. And Windows DOES have "Previous Versions."

"USB sticks are slower ... than Hard Drives."
Super. Now go back to your home planet.

It is stuff like this that I am talking about: "Actually, you don't understand much about Vista's feature's either. Oops! They had to remove all of them." COME ON, PEOPLE! Admit it, Vista has some really cool things about it. SO DOES OS X. BUT SO DOES VISTA. I'm not saying Vista is better. I LIKE OS X BETTER. I just think it is cleaner. System Preferences vs Control Panels would be a good example. But I am pointing out how disgusted I was with WWDC, where Apple was just being so stuck up it ended up being FUNNY. Because they are acting like they own the world, when HOW MUCH MORE MARKET SHARE DOES MICROSOFT HAVE? It just makes me mad when they completely diss Microsoft, who is actually doing a STELLAR job of improving from XP...
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post #102 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

"USB sticks are slower ... than Hard Drives."[/I] Super. Now go back to your home planet.

No, you go back to yours. I'm here on Earth where flash is slower than HDDs.
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post #103 of 157
The big difference between Vista and Lepard is the Mac 10.5 and Vista 1.0

Vista is notoriously bad at windows XP programs and worse win98 programs. So much stuff(some security, some not) are so radically changed, it will make most Vista earily adopters(and even some future late ones) hair pull.

And I doubt corporate would touch that thing with a long handled, sterilized stick. Reprograming internal programs is bad enough, but paying for certain upgrades = managers sitting on it till the problem goes away or can't be avoided.

Vista has a long trek up(not as long as macosx, but long) road up.

Lepoard is relatively short growing pains, and Intel users would like it as anything that crunches Rosetta/code optimization better = need.

They may be pinned together in the hype, but they are very different senerio's.

Microsoft looks at Vista as a long term(burn roads to pave new), while Apple with Leopard is another stepping stone.

Vista at intro = risk taking (will you burn if you install)
Leopard at intro = value assessment (Is it worth the price)
post #104 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H

No, you go back to yours. I'm here on Earth where flash is slower than HDDs.

Hmmm....

Thinking about it... Flash has much lower latencies, but I'm not sure how much that matters when it comes to Virtual Memory, and I'm not sure how true that actually is when you compare an HDD on a SATA bus to a USB stick connected to a USB port. What happens if you've another USB device sucking up all the bandwidth?

I still fail to see what's so great about this feature. RAM is cheaper than a USB stick.
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post #105 of 157
Thanks Kuku.

That was one of the first posts here with an actually valid opinion.

Mr H: NO. Flash is FASTER than hard drives.
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post #106 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuku

Vista at intro = risk taking (will you burn if you install)
Leopard at intro = value assessment (Is it worth the price)

I note you are assuming that Leopard won't have a repeat/something-similar-to Panther's lovely FireWire bug?
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post #107 of 157
You;re right, RAM is faster. But for VM, flash is a better solution.
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post #108 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

Hm. Spaces. "Innovative?" Are you JOKING? Linux has had that for HOW many years....?

Automatic file backups is another idea that is HARDLY new.. Perhaps Apple's approach is slightly different from what other people are doing, but not hugely. And Windows DOES have "Previous Versions."

Wait, I thought we were comparing OS X to Windows, not various flavors of Linux...? Windows does not have virtual desktops, Leopard will. Besides, as always, the devil is in the details, and Apple's implementation w/ Spaces looks really cool. (Check out some of Spaces + Exposé videos on YouTube to get a taste of what it's like.)

Same goes for Time Machine. Basic tech, basic idea... but just a brilliant, fun, drop-dead easy-to-use implementation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

It is stuff like this that I am talking about: "Actually, you don't understand much about Vista's feature's either. Oops! They had to remove all of them." COME ON, PEOPLE! Admit it, Vista has some really cool things about it. SO DOES OS X. BUT SO DOES VISTA. I'm not saying Vista is better. I LIKE OS X BETTER. I just think it is cleaner. System Preferences vs Control Panels would be a good example. But I am pointing out how disgusted I was with WWDC, where Apple was just being so stuck up it ended up being FUNNY. Because they are acting like they own the world, when HOW MUCH MORE MARKET SHARE DOES MICROSOFT HAVE? It just makes me mad when they completely diss Microsoft, who is actually doing a STELLAR job of improving from XP...

The knee-jerk "Vista sucks" comments bug me too, and I also found Apple's attitude at WWDC rather childish. (And super-ironic, since all the stuff they were announcing was stuff basically in Vista. All the stuff that's *not* in Vista they're keeping under wraps. )

That said, I can't really agree that MS is doing a "stellar" job. Yes, it's a major step from XP, but huge chunks of Vista are frankly uninspired. I mean, 5 years, and they've got "Windows Mail", an iPhoto-like app, a iCal-like app, a Konfabulator/Dashboard-like app that looks a little like the Dock, a compositing engine that renders graphics to the video card, and glass-like, 3-D, pulsing blue buttons in dialogs? (cough) lame (cough). C'mon, guys.

Of course there's good stuff too. Nice type. The breadcrumb bar. The ability to upgrade the OS online (very cool). A much-improved alt-tab with previews. (Don't get me started on "Flip 3D".) And so on.

But that's small stuff. I want to see *great* things in Windows -- things that make me want to switch. Nothing I've seen in Vista makes me come even close. Though I'm sure it'll all be great for Windows users... eventually.
post #109 of 157
Turnwrite,

I note that you requested for people to name "one single little" feature that Leopard will have over Vista, and now that people have named several, you have conveniently (for you) ignored it.

But I would agree that Apple and Apple users would do well not to be so cocky about Vista. It is nowhere near as bad as they like to think it is.
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post #110 of 157
You;re right, there is nothing in Vista making me want to switch from a Mac. But there is DEFINITELY stuff that makes me want to go to the store on OPENING DAY and upgrade my XP.

And so Hobbes: while we're talking about implementation, here: Vista's implementation of many of these OSXish features is different than Apple's.

Windows Explorer now has many of the features that the Finder does. But it is still very different. The "look" is pretty OSXish. But totally different.

Well I'm just pointing out that all this "new" and "innovative" stuff isn't as new as you guys seem to think.

But as I have said MANY times, I LIKE OSX BETTER. So no need to convice me of that: I agree.
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post #111 of 157
Mr. H: The "features" that people have named are not so much "features Vista doesn't have" as "Apple's is prettier."

And I agree with that.

That's why I use a Mac.

But no one has named anthing solidly better.

Or did you hear something I didn't?
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post #112 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes

No, that's about as absurdly harsh a review as you're going to find.

The Inquirer is a well-known sourpuss rag. Same goes for their acidic articles on Apple.

Here's an actually average report on Vista RC1.

I consider that one to be too mild.

What has to be remembered in these reviews, is that they are SUPPOSED to wring out problems and bugs. Any review that doesn't, isn't useful, or even a full review.

Some reviewers put the OS on their machine, look at it for a while, and pronounce it good.

That's a waste of time.

The problems that were mentioned are real problems. And the lack of any new major features has been gone over so many times in the PC press, that we should all know it by heart by now.
post #113 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

You;re right, there is nothing in Vista making me want to switch from a Mac. But there is DEFINITELY stuff that makes me want to go to the store on OPENING DAY and upgrade my XP.

Oh, absolutely. The people trying to make Vista = XP + transparent windows are either ill-informed or full of it. Vista is a big upgrade for Windows users, with lots and lots of features. It will sell well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

And so Hobbes: while we're talking about implementation, here: Vista's implementation of many of these OSXish features is different than Apple's.

Yeah, it's the surface details (right down the trash can!) that feel to me most shamelessly ripped-off. And just to be clear, I'm not saying that Vista is copying the Mac UI philosophy; I'm sure Vista is still Windows, and acts like Windows (for good and bad). But I mean, compare the Sidebar to Dashboard, or "Flip 3D" to Exposé, and I think you'll have a good idea of how "different" in Vista's case ain't necessarily better.
post #114 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

Thanks Kuku.

That was one of the first posts here with an actually valid opinion.

Mr H: NO. Flash is FASTER than hard drives.

No, it's not. The fastest Flash is under 20MBs. The fastest HD's today, which are pretty easily to buy, are over 80MBs.
post #115 of 157
Well I think Flip 3D is pretty different than Expose, after all 3D has been a part of "Longhorn" for a LOOOONG time, and I wouldn't consider it a ripoff.

Sidebar is, I think, similar to Dashboard, but a) was in older builds of Vista, BEFORE Dashboard, and b) Dashboard = Konfabulator, which is a WIndows app too. If Apple can rip off a Mac app, Windows can rip off the same app for Windows.
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post #116 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

You;re right, RAM is faster. But for VM, flash is a better solution.

Again. you're wrong. VM can consume more memory than the largest Flash drives, by far. And there is that write lifetime problem.

When this comes out, sometime in late 2008, it will be different. And expensive at first. But, by then 10.* will be using it as well.

http://samsung.com/PressCenter/Press...911_0000286481
post #117 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

Mr. H: The "features" that people have named are not so much "features Vista doesn't have" as "Apple's is prettier."

Er... Well, the features I listed in this post are not in Vista, in any shape or form, to the best of my knowledge.

FW target disk mode, as someone else mentioned is a very useful feature. I guess that's sort of covered under EFI/OpenFirmware, but just supporting those boot firmware systems doesn't give you FW target mode for free, you still have to implement it. Also, it's debatable as to whether target disk mode is a OS X feature or a Mac platform feature.

Someone else mentioned Automator, I'm not aware of a GUI-based automation system as part of Vista.

Print to PDF from any App.

Bonjour.
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post #118 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

I consider that one to be too mild.

What has to be remembered in these reviews, is that they are SUPPOSED to wring out problems and bugs. Any review that doesn't, isn't useful, or even a full review.

Some reviewers put the OS on their machine, look at it for a while, and pronounce it good.

That's a waste of time.

The problems that were mentioned are real problems. And the lack of any new major features has been gone over so many times in the PC press, that we should all know it by heart by now.

Huh? What are you talking about? It's not a final product, it's RC1 (aka Beta 3).

The sum of reports I've seen say: looks good, not 100% sure about UAC, and not quite yet ready for prime time.

As for the lack of new major features, we're not in disagreement exactly. There's plenty of new features for loyal XP users, so if MS can sell 'em Vista without them looking at the other side of the lawn, they're in OK shape. For anyone who's used a Mac, of course... not so much.
post #119 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes

Huh? What are you talking about? It's not a final product, it's RC1 (aka Beta 3).

The sum of reports I've say: looks good, but not yet ready for prime time.

As for the lack of new major features, we're not in disagreement exactly. There's plenty of new features for loyal XP users, so if MS can sell 'em Vista without them looking at the other side of the lawn, they're in OK shape. For anyone who's used a Mac, of course... not so much.

The entire point of RC is that it is feature complete, and has only very minor bugs that can be eliminated quickly. It is not an aka Beta 3. But this SHOULD have been called beta 3, as many PC users have noted. I'm sure you've read plenty of that. Oh, and why would a final release candidate have a 1 after it? If it is final release, it should be going to Golden Master, shortly after the bugs are gone.

And what about all of the calls to delay it from weeks to months?

No, this is still a mess.

The main feature, other than the fact that is makes the first release of OS 10 seem like a speedy bit of software, is that it seems to be more intelligently thought out, except for the Start menu, which I'm reading a lot of negativity about, and is confusing to me as well.
post #120 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnwrite

Well I think Flip 3D is pretty different than Expose, after all 3D has been a part of "Longhorn" for a LOOOONG time, and I wouldn't consider it a ripoff.

Sidebar is, I think, similar to Dashboard, but a) was in older builds of Vista, BEFORE Dashboard, and b) Dashboard = Konfabulator, which is a WIndows app too. If Apple can rip off a Mac app, Windows can rip off the same app for Windows.

Actually, the scuttlebutt is that MS was working on an Exposé-like solution internally when Apple released Panther. So, to avoid the appearance of flat-out copying, they released the sort of nifty-looking but low-utility Flip 3D. (Tip to MS: if you can't see the full contents of your windows all at once, it ain't so useful.)

That's one of the problems inherent in working on something for years and years without releasing to the public.

As for Sidebar... yeah, yeah, Sidebar had been floating around for ages, but it took a decidedly Konfabulator/Dashboard-like look-and-feel exactly after Tiger's release. (shrug) Apple did the same thing, really, so whatever.
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