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Prius Drivers Unite - Page 2

post #41 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmoNut

If a girl didn't want to date me because I drove a Prius then it's not likely I'd want to date her either.

You are wrong. I will find you a Prius hating beautiful 27 year old in the Kansas City area who you shall absolutely fall in love with.

Hold on while I check myspace.com to find one...
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post #42 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

Buying any new car, including a Prius, "for the environment" is flawed logic since half the fossil fuel a car will ever use in its life is used during its production and assembly. I'm assuming the Prius requires even more energy to be used during production because of the whole battery/motor part of it. Thus, by buying a used car, for every mile you drive won't be weighed down in product-life energy consumption by the fact that your buying of it required it to be manufactured.

Which is why Ford, and probably a lot of the other guys, are working on recyclable cars.
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post #43 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

Hey Xool, doesn't Cal offer some kind of tax rebate on hybrids?

Seems like I remember reading about kind of elaborate formula where you get more when the manufacturer has sold fewer and decreasing as they approach whatever the "quota" is.

There are two programs in effect. A federal tax credit for hyrbids and a special CA carpool decal for low emission vehicles.

The tax credit is staged by # of vehicles per manufacturer. It starts at around $3000 and will drop as manufacturers hit certain thresholds regarding the total number of cars sold. Toyota, being the #1 seller of hybrids, is about to hit the first threshold which will drop credits for their cars by 1/2. The next time it will drop by 1/2 again and then finally the credit will disappear. Meanwhile, other manufacturers aren't that close so you can get a credit for a while. This is the current rules though. Last year was different and who knows what the feds will cook up for next year.

Meanwhile in CA there is a second program. Drivers of low emission vehicles can apply for stickers that allows them to drive in the carpool lane with only 1 occupant in the car: the driver. It doesn't give you free bridge toll and in the Bay Area a transponder is required, but if you drive during commute hours these stickers are awesome. This program was capped at about 60,000 stickers state-wide and they are almost all gone. Our commute is opposite the main flow of traffic so we don't really need our stickers, at least not now, but there's no way we were gonna pass these suckers up. This program will end in 2008 unless it is extended.
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post #44 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Far be it from me to know what I actually said. I'll yield to your expertise in the area of trumptman.

Nick

Well obviously you can't read what you just typed...

Vinea
post #45 of 81
My grandfather just purhased a new 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid.

For a conservative who has always purchased Ford in the last 20 years I was quite surprised to see his choice!

He loves the car and reports to me how in so many ways it is a better car than the Lincoln Town Car my grandmother drives which is also a new late model.

Now sure much of this is opinion. However I suppose some thigs can be quantified so I am happy for my grandfather and happy for any and all of you all here with your hybrid cars.

My 06 civic is a fantastic car while not a hybrid it is small yet roomy and comfortable.

I think the North American market will see a new influx of small cars / hybrids in the coming years.

I thank cities such as Paris France for providing the example of how small cars can and do work.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #46 of 81
addabox:

Quote:
Why? Are people driving around in their Priuses, going "nyah nyah I'm better than you?"

Yes, yes they are.

I am a dirty, filthy communist terror-lover and I absolutely cannot stand the Prius and whole Prius thing.

But trumpt's "WELL HOW CAN I TOW FIVE ELEPHANTS WITH IT TELL ME THAT GOOD SIR!" is pretty bizarre. It's a small car. What small cars are used for "REAL MANLY WORK THAT REAL MEN DO!"?


CosmoNut:

Quote:
Then again, some people are doing it to please Mother Nature instead of their bank accounts.

Prius is just as image-focused as a Lamborghini.

I love the idea of an all-electric envirocar. I want an electric car badly. But to act like the Prius is a Mother Nature loving car is a joke.


Xool:

46mpg? That's it? Ford Fiestas get that.
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post #47 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

addabox:



Yes, yes they are.

I am a dirty, filthy communist terror-lover and I absolutely cannot stand the Prius and whole Prius thing.

But trumpt's "WELL HOW CAN I TOW FIVE ELEPHANTS WITH IT TELL ME THAT GOOD SIR!" is pretty bizarre. It's a small car. What small cars are used for "REAL MANLY WORK THAT REAL MEN DO!"?


CosmoNut:



Prius is just as image-focused as a Lamborghini.

I love the idea of an all-electric envirocar. I want an electric car badly. But to act like the Prius is a Mother Nature loving car is a joke.


Xool:

46mpg? That's it? Ford Fiestas get that.

You need to DL Southpark Smug Alert! it is hillarious and dead on accurate at the same time.
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post #48 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Well obviously you can't read what you just typed...

Vinea

Obviously I can't. Thank goodness you are here to think not only for me, but for all of us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship

My grandfather just purhased a new 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid.

For a conservative who has always purchased Ford in the last 20 years I was quite surprised to see his choice!

He loves the car and reports to me how in so many ways it is a better car than the Lincoln Town Car my grandmother drives which is also a new late model.

Now sure much of this is opinion. However I suppose some things can be quantified so I am happy for my grandfather and happy for any and all of you all here with your hybrid cars.

My 06 civic is a fantastic car while not a hybrid it is small yet roomy and comfortable.

I think the North American market will see a new influx of small cars / hybrids in the coming years.

I thank cities such as Paris France for providing the example of how small cars can and do work.

Fellows

Why are you so surprised at his choice? Do you limit him, his thinking and his ability simply by characterizing him as conservative? Does he automatically have to hate the planet and desire to destroy it as quickly as possibly and thus this is contrary to that nature?

Not to be rude, Fellowship but conservatives read statements like that, respond accordingly and then the folks that make them often don't understand how they were insulting.

I know your intent was not to insult your grandfather, but that message is there. You basically were surprised because environmental concerns appear to be beyond his reasoning and thinking.

One change I am really looking foward to is Jeep introducing SUV's with diesel engines. They are smaller, get better gas mileage and still have plenty of torque for towing.

As an environmentally conscious person, can I extract a pledge from you to insure that no trade-in, purchase of new model vehicle yet again? Although with the legendary deals you acquire, I can understand why it is hard to resist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

addabox:
Yes, yes they are.

I am a dirty, filthy communist terror-lover and I absolutely cannot stand the Prius and whole Prius thing.

Leave your love life out of this.

Quote:
But trumpt's "WELL HOW CAN I TOW FIVE ELEPHANTS WITH IT TELL ME THAT GOOD SIR!" is pretty bizarre. It's a small car. What small cars are used for "REAL MANLY WORK THAT REAL MEN DO!"?

It has nothing to do with real men. Real women do plenty of towing as well.

giant was a bit shrill earlier (Hi midwinter) and mentioned the large pickups that so many people own in this day and age. He condemns people for their choices but doesn't give any historical context. The reality is that 25-30 years ago most CARS were body on frame construction and had a large 6 or 8 cyl motor. Now almost all sedans, minivans, and even a good number of smaller SUV's are unibody car platforms which saves weight and allows use of smaller engines. The trade off is that they are terrible for towing.

Most families need one vehicle that can do something beyond carrying passengers. I've teased that white elementary teachers must own more SUV's per capita than anyone on the planet. However when you probe into why this is so, it becomes more clear. Dad takes the job that requires commuting, often pays more, and he often gets there in a fuel efficient sedan. Mom works local and drives the family gas guzzler that can haul kids, equipment and be used by the whole family on the weekends.

I've watched families progress through the line of vehicles. Minivans are a car platform and can haul 3500 lbs. Then they moved up to SUV's most of which are still body on frame (heavy) but use car type transmissions, leaf springs, and have limited tow capacities, often of 4-5000lbs. The one many families ran into is that these tow capacites and the gross vehicle weight capacity don't include items like... passengers... fuel... the ice chest full of drinks for the soccer game... etc. The next item up is a crew cab truck. This is where many people have been ending up because, it isn't five elephants, it is just the two kids, their two friends, the ice chests and the boat going to the lake on the weekend. You do need more tow capacity than a minivan or most SUV's provide for such an outing. People have tried less than that, but they get tired of buying transmissions.

Nick

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post #49 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

He condemns people for their choices but doesn't give any historical context. k

Who's the member who hijacked Xool's friendly thread to condemn and rant about "pious" "smug" "snob" prius owners? Answer: trumptman.

Sorry if you are offended by my point that an oversized, late-model SUV or pickup is often far, far more ostentatious and overtly snobbier than a little, average-looking, nondescript prius. Your defensive reaction toward that statement, combined with your ridicule and patronizing of prius owners shows who the real car snob is.
Quote:
It has nothing to do with real men.

Groverat had it spot on. Your response was exactly that:
Quote:
How far could the Prius tow my 1500 lb construction trailer which weighs about 6000lbs fully loaded with materials? How far could it tow my 6500 lb travel trailer?

I'm glad you enjoy feeling pious in your Prius while zipping along alone in the carpool lane. I'm make sure that if you even rent any housing from me to increase your rent enough for me to buy carbon offsets for my vehicles that actually have to do work.

Quote:
The next item up is a crew cab truck. This is where many people have been ending up...

Granted, I don't spend a lot of time out in the extreme california desert exurbs, but I've seen very few crew cabs being driven by women, much less women picking up their girls from dance class.
Quote:
just the two kids, their two friends, the ice chests and the boat going to the lake on the weekend

A minority of families ever tow anything.

It's abundantly clear that your view of this "history" is heavily shaped by your exurb/rural american surroundings.
post #50 of 81
The notion that power and safety (which a giant truck will give you, like it or not) are inherently bad is absurd. We need to focus on the actual problems, and the actual problems have almost nothing to do with a vehicle's size (given certain logical boundaries, of course).

As trumpt rightly points out, some people actually "need" some power. Not every truck is a garage queen that will never get its trailer hitch dirty.

Someone getting 46mpg acting like they are driving something environmentally-friendly is just as hilarious as a woman driving an H2 doing nothing but toting kids and hauling groceries.

Wake up the smug patrol when we've got greenish energy production and all-electrics made from greenish production facilities and materials.

I, personally, don't like sitting up high while I drive. That's really the only reason I wouldn't buy a giant electric SUV.
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post #51 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Obviously I can't. Thank goodness you are here to think not only for me, but for all of us.

Well, if you don't want to be called on for being rude...don't be rude. What you thought you wrote and what you actually wrote are two different things. You (and others) pissed all over this guy's thread that was merely asking to see if there were other Prius owners here on AI.

Quote:
Why are you so surprised at his choice? Do you limit him, his thinking and his ability simply by characterizing him as conservative? Does he automatically have to hate the planet and desire to destroy it as quickly as possibly and thus this is contrary to that nature?

Not to be rude, Fellowship but conservatives read statements like that, respond accordingly and then the folks that make them often don't understand how they were insulting.

Well many of my fellow "conservatives" apparently can't think in the long term and prefer to do odd things like build more highways and drill the ANWR over looking for alternatives.

So, yeah, I'm pretty surprised too. The "conservative" IQ has dropped around 20 points in the last couple of decades or perhaps that's just wishful thinking of the good old days.

Pre-Clinton we sure seemed a lot brighter than we are today.

Quote:
I know your intent was not to insult your grandfather, but that message is there. You basically were surprised because environmental concerns appear to be beyond his reasoning and thinking.

Personally the environment isn't the deciding factor in the reduction of fossil fuel use. "Conservatives" should asking to spend billions on alternative energy to reduce or eliminate the importance of the middle east as quickly as possible. But we don't. The reduction in pollution is a nice side benefit.

As far as towing there are hybrid electric that perform that task pretty well but are still prototypes. For fleets the 50% increase in fuel efficiency is a significant cost savings. This is why the military is so interested in making their next generation tactical transports hybrids. The ability to generate field power is a nice benefit as well.

Vinea
post #52 of 81
Mmm...back on topic...did you get the Nav package on the Prius? I keep dithering about nav systems. They seem to get obsolete so quickly...I ordered the DVD package on the van but in hindsight it was a waste of money. I could have bought some PSPs and iPods for the kids instead.

Vinea
post #53 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman


Why are you so surprised at his choice? Do you limit him, his thinking and his ability simply by characterizing him as conservative? Does he automatically have to hate the planet and desire to destroy it as quickly as possibly and thus this is contrary to that nature?

Not to be rude, Fellowship but conservatives read statements like that, respond accordingly and then the folks that make them often don't understand how they were insulting.

I know your intent was not to insult your grandfather, but that message is there. You basically were surprised because environmental concerns appear to be beyond his reasoning and thinking.



Nick

You raise good points which deserve a response,

Actually I was more surprised that he bought a car other than a Ford Mercury Lincoln more than anything. My grandad is a dyed in the wool Ford guy and I have never known why but he was.

Now to see him buy his new Camry I was surprised and quite frankly it has little to nothing to do with the fact that he is "conservative" as much as it is about what a strict Ford fan he has been for decades.

I will say that I know he listens to Mr. Rush Limbaugh and I know Rush Limbaugh paints certain pictures about environment minded people as "tree-huggers", "environmentalist whackos" so to some degree I was surprised that my Grandad went with the hybrid version Camry given that he listens to a pundit for a party which is not per say known so much for their support of "green" causes.

As for my grandad I admire the man. He was an alcoholic and overcame that via AA and will not touch a drink and has not for decades. I respect that.

He and my father tought me and mentored me in business and construction as a contractor and in being a landlord. I have a deep and unchanging respect for my grandfather and I have learned a lot from him.

We may disagree about certain things RE: politics but I know he is a wonderful human being just as you know I extend that description to you Nick as well despite our sometimes differences.

When is my next trade?

Not sure

have to see how things go when the new little one arrives

Respectfully

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #54 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

As trumpt rightly points out, some people actually "need" some power. Not every truck is a garage queen that will never get its trailer hitch dirty.

There's no argument there, and I'm not sure anyone made that argument. However, I don't see how the towing capacity of trumptman's truck or anyone else's have anything to do with this thread.

Really, maybe we should start talking about my grand cherokee and how I use it when I need to haul something like furniture or how I've used it a couple times to tow my Dad's boat trailer...because that's just so totally relevant in a prius driver's thread. Or maybe since I have an SUV (and used to have a dadge ram and ford van) I should jump on bandwagon and ridicule prius owners since they are obviously all a bunch of tree-hugging peacenik socialists. I mean really, who else would ever buy one, right?
Quote:
Someone getting 46mpg acting like they are driving something environmentally-friendly is just as hilarious as a woman driving an H2 doing nothing but toting kids and hauling groceries.

Not to be too snarky, but what does it look like when someone is acting like they are driving something environmentally-friendly and how to I distinguish that behavior from someone who bought it because it's tech-friendly and saves him money on gas?

In contrast, the many H2s, Escalades and other oversized light trucks I see in my area are totally absurd. They can barely fit on the streets half of the time, there's barely any place to park them and they sure as shit aren't towing anything. The same motivations that led these oddballs to buy those vehicles is the same attitude that has most americans in debt, and I give you a hint: they have little to do with utility.

BTW, I completely agree that snobby holier-than-thou hippies exist and are an annoyance, but I really don't see how owning a prius automatically makes someone an environmental snob. That's just plain stupid.
post #55 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant

Or maybe since I have an SUV (and used to have a dadge ram and ford van) I should jump on bandwagon and ridicule prius owners since they are obviously all a bunch of tree-hugging peacenik socialists. I mean really, who else would ever buy one, right?

All you have to do is read this thread to see clear evidence of that Prius attitude. Is there also an irritating anti-Prius attiude? Sure, but that doesn't negate the Prius self-righteousness.

Quote:
Not to be too snarky, but what does it look like when someone is acting like they are driving something environmentally-friendly and how to I distinguish that behavior from someone who bought it because it's tech-friendly and saves him money on gas?

I didn't say "looking like", I said "acting like".

You're making this out to be a personal attack on Xool, something that never happened.

Quote:
BTW, I completely agree that snobby holier-than-thou hippies exist and are an annoyance, but I really don't see how owning a prius automatically makes someone an environmental snob. That's just plain stupid.

It's not about being an "environmental snob" at all, it's about being a pseudo-envirosnob. There is virtually no difference, environmentally speaking, between a Prius and a Civic. It is not environmental snobbery itself, but the pretense of environmental snobbery that bugs the hell out of me.

If there was a real enviro-friendly automobile out there that didn't cost 6 figures, put you at serious death risk on the highway, or use a difficult-to-attain fuel (or means of energy production and storage), I'd be the snob champion.
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post #56 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant

Who's the member who hijacked Xool's friendly thread to condemn and rant about "pious" "smug" "snob" prius owners? Answer: trumptman.

Sorry if you are offended by my point that an oversized, late-model SUV or pickup is often far, far more ostentatious and overtly snobbier than a little, average-looking, nondescript prius. Your defensive reaction toward that statement, combined with your ridicule and patronizing of prius owners shows who the real car snob is.

If ad-homs were carbon producing, you would have killed the planet right there. I've made it quite clear that I would love to own a Prius if they could do what I do and didn't demand a premium.

Quote:
Groverat had it spot on. Your response was exactly that:

You take out the smirk and add in the venom. My intent was merely to show that I can be carbon-neutral but that it would come out of his pocket versus mine since my vehicle has to do more.

Quote:
Granted, I don't spend a lot of time out in the extreme california desert exurbs, but I've seen very few crew cabs being driven by women, much less women picking up their girls from dance class.

I don't know where you live (I seem to remember something about Chicago or at least Illinois) but in California not only is everything spread out, but it is also nothing but hills, mountains and valleys. I live in Cherry Valley which is at 2650 ft. above sea level. I travel to work in Moreno Valley which is at an elevation of 1650 ft. That decline and incline takes place within about seven of the fifteen miles I drive.

Take a little time to look here and enlighten yourself about the difference between our respective geographies. My Cherokee for example had a 5,000 lb. tow capacity. Even if I were running up against this regularly it might not be a big deal if I were in say... Illinois. However 5-6% grades are not hard to find out here at all. They are the norm rather than the exception. You run your vehicle to 100% of it's capacity on such grades and you find yourself in the slow lane doing 25 mph with your emergency blinkers on being a hazard. You even fill such a vehicle with five decent size teens and adults along with some equipment and you might only be pulling 40 mph on the freeway for long stretches.

Quote:
A minority of families ever tow anything.

That might be true where you live however out where I live, we go outside to play. Many people own "toys" consisting of various watercraft, quads or motorcycles. I prefer no toys but more nature. I won't call myself a backpacker yet since I still have two children in tow. My children and I hiked into the natural entrance for Carlsbad Caverns last April for example. We hiked up into the cliff dwellings in Gila. Out west, we are not rare.





Quote:
It's abundantly clear that your view of this "history" is heavily shaped by your exurb/rural american surroundings.

I wouldn't call Southern California rural. A small town in California is often larger than most capital cities in others states. Sounds more like population density instead of just pure population to me.

Nick

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post #57 of 81
I don't understand how some here are arguing that hybrids have no beneficial impact on the environment. It seems to me that if it doesn't run the engine all the time (like a regular vehicle) and uses less gasoline to go the same distance (as a regular vehicle) then it would be better for the environment. Why is it not possible for a person who's concerned about the health of our planet to take advantage of that and not be a snob?
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post #58 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

I've made it quite clear that I would love to own a Prius if they could do what I do and didn't demand a premium.

Oh, that's right. Snobs are simply people who drive cars you wouldn't, and if they made a version more useful to you it magically stops being snobby.
Quote:
You take out the smirk and add in the venom.

Me?
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I don't know where you live

I've lived all over the country.
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in California not only is everything spread out

Really? I had no idea.
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I live in Cherry Valley which is

exurban/rural.
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enlighten yourself about the difference between our respective geographies

"Our?" Which ones are mine?
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However 5-6% grades are not hard to find out here at all.

Yawn. It took driving the 25% grade road into Waipi'o Valley last week before my 4x4 rental felt remotely necessary.
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however out where I live...

So, as I said, the "history" you describe is really only what you think you see out in your exurb/rural surroundings.
Quote:
I wouldn't call Southern California rural.

Where you live is defintely exurban/rural. I'm being generous considering communities a half hour west of you have long been considered LA exurbs and Cherry Valley isn't even incorporated.
post #59 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

It's not about being an "environmental snob" at all, it's about being a pseudo-envirosnob. There is virtually no difference, environmentally speaking, between a Prius and a Civic. It is not environmental snobbery itself, but the pretense of environmental snobbery that bugs the hell out of me.

The thing I disagree with is any assumption that a prius driver is a "pseudo-envirosnob." Everyone who has mentioned it to me discusses the high MPG and benefit of low emissions. I guess I'm lucky that I've managed to avoid the fleets of them clogging the roads with their pseudo-envirosnobbery. Judging from some reactions here, they must be absolutely swarming you guys where you are.
post #60 of 81
Why does an attitude have to be pervasive to be irritating? What a bizarre notion.

CosmoNut:

Quote:
I don't understand how some here are arguing that hybrids have no beneficial impact on the environment. It seems to me that if it doesn't run the engine all the time (like a regular vehicle) and uses less gasoline to go the same distance (as a regular vehicle) then it would be better for the environment. Why is it not possible for a person who's concerned about the health of our planet to take advantage of that and not be a snob?

Because the "advantage" is illusory.
The curb weight of a Prius is 2890lbs.
The curb weight of a 4-door Corrola is 2595lbs.
It's a good bit heavier (~11%), and that's not because of parts made from fairy dust, compost, and Miracle-Gro. Those parts are made somewhere using processes, factories, materials, and electricity; they weren't shit out of Mother Nature's loving colon.

A user here gets an average for 46mpg in his Prius.
A 2006 Corolla is rated 32/41mpg (city/hwy).
Obviously the Prius has an advantage here, but it depends on where someone does his driving. I'd bet that if it's a lot of highway miles they'll be almost even.

The 2007 Prius costs $20419.
The 2007 Corolla LE costs $13950.

There is nothing wrong with owning a Prius. By the same token, there's nothing wrong with owning a Lamborghini Murcielago or a Corvette Z06. I'd love to have any one of the three, but not because the Prius is going to save the environment or because the Lamborghini and Z06 will lower my track times, but because they're cool, because of their image (although, to be fair, the Z06 does offer Ferrari performance at 1/3rd the price).
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post #61 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant

Oh, that's right. Snobs are simply people who drive cars you wouldn't, and if they made a version more useful to you it magically stops being snobby.

Grove gets into it a bit as to why I think they are snobby. It amounts to being able to pay nearly 33% more just to show solidarity with a cause.

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Me?

Sure, you add the tone. My words contain no personal attack. You take issue with the tone which you have read into it.

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I've lived all over the country.

Good for you.

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Really? I had no idea.

Gee if I think I don't like your tone there, can I argue about your intent for ten replies?

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exurban/rural.

I would agree with you if cities like Riverside, San Bernadino, Ontario weren't all knitted together and had larger combined populations than say...several states.

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Yawn. It took driving the 25% grade road into Waipi'o Valley last week before my 4x4 rental felt remotely necessary.

You use the exception to prove the rule? Interesting logic. You take an experience so rare you can accomodate it with a rental to prove how I commute to work daily must be an illusion. What size engine in your rental? What speed? What number of passengers? I'm sure you are also comparing freeways, with freeways right? You would never be unintelligent enough to compare, say a paved trail granting access to a state park to a freeway. Are you going to tell me you were pulling 65 on this 25% grade?

I guess all I have to do is rent an Prius for a day, and I've saved the planet.

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Our?" Which ones are mine?

Yours is the flat one.

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So, as I said, the "history" you describe is really only what you think you see out in your exurb/rural surroundings.

I've stated that these tools work best for where I live. If I lived in a different setting where different tools were more appropriate, I would adopt them. I've stated a willingness to be flexible. You've declared there must be one true answer for all people.

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Where you live is defintely exurban/rural. I'm being generous considering communities a half hour west of you have long been considered LA exurbs and Cherry Valley isn't even incorporated.

What you describe is true. However it is also comparative. When the cities that are exurbs of L.A. have populations combined higher than several states or even several counties within larger states, you have to recognize that. California is the most populous state. The population of the greater L.A area is 18 million. That is about 40% more than the entire state of Illinois. Being "small" when you are already 40% larger is relative. Beaumont/Banning are twin cities and combined with Cherry Valley (the sprawl connects us all) have a population of 70,000 people. You want to call that rural, you are welcome to do so.

Cherry Valley has a long history that explains why they aren't incorporated. It doesn't have to anything to do with population and has more to do with not having (nor desiring, nor allowing) any industry that would provide a tax base for incorporating.

Nick

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post #62 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

Xool:

46mpg? That's it? Ford Fiestas get that.

True, but the Prius is a fairly solid and mid-sized car. If it was built smaller I'm sure it could get better gas mileage. Also, 46 is our real-life mpg with city/highway driving. They quote 60/52 city/highway but that's off mark like in all cars. I'd be curious to compare it to other cars that are similar in size or features because really, as with all things, it is all about compromises. The main thing the Prius has going for it over other hybdris is that it was built from the ground up as such and has various high-end features.

Prius in Europe and Canada have an electric only mode. If US Priuses had the feature we'd use that when tooling about town -- a "plug in hybrid". However the EPA and the government decided to limit that ability to foreign markets and Prius hackers. There's still a slot on the dash where the switch would go!

Its funny where this thread has gone, esp. since it started with something akin to our shared Mac pride. I'm not going to argue that the Prius is the most environmentally friendly car on Earth (it emits daisies and puppies instead of the usual exhaust!) but I would argue that it is far more environmentally responsible than many other cars out there. If we didn't get a Prius we would have purchased a more traditional car that got maybe 25 - 30 mpg so it has its eco benefits.

Meanwhile, I take mass transit to/from work in San Francisco every day.
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post #63 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xool

True, but the Prius is a fairly solid and mid-sized car. If it was built smaller I'm sure it could get better gas mileage. Also, 46 is our real-life mpg with city/highway driving. They quote 60/52 city/highway but that's off mark like in all cars.....

They are allowed to be that far off???
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post #64 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Grove gets into it a bit as to why I think they are snobby. It amounts to being able to pay nearly 33% more just to show solidarity with a cause.

Edmunds and consumer reports apparently are now saying they are economical considering the high gas prices. \
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Sure, you add the tone.

Right...wait, didn't you say the exact same thing to someone else? You are just so misunderstood.
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Gee if I think I don't like your tone there, can I argue about your intent for ten replies?

We don't need to because I don't lie about my intent or the contents of my post.
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I would agree with you if cities like Riverside, San Bernadino, Ontario weren't all knitted together and had larger combined populations than say...several states.

It's ot about whether you agree or not. Your neighbors apparently consider it rural. By calling it exurban/rural I'm being generous.
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You use the exception to prove the rule?

The exception? Hey, since you know so much about what I do, why don't list every state I've lived in over the past 10-15 years and each of the mountain ranges I've been in during the last 6 months.
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You take an experience so rare you can accomodate it with a rental

Hmmm. Renting a car on an island implies a lack of mountain and off-road driving? Maybe you can walk me through the logic you're using to come up with that one.
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I'm sure you are also comparing freeways, with freeways right?

Freeways that you need a truck for?
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I've stated that these tools work best for where I live.

Eh, the towing argument actually made sense. This one, not so much.
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What you describe is true. However it is also comparative...you are welcome to do so.k

I don't know why you want to pretend your area is less exurban/rural than it is.
post #65 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by dac0nvu

They are allowed to be that far off???

Gas mileage estimates from car companies come from the EPA. Since real world mileage is invariably lower, there are problems with the accuracy of the test used by the government.
post #66 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

Because the "advantage" is illusory.
The curb weight of a Prius is 2890lbs.
The curb weight of a 4-door Corrola is 2595lbs.
It's a good bit heavier (~11%), and that's not because of parts made from fairy dust, compost, and Miracle-Gro. Those parts are made somewhere using processes, factories, materials, and electricity; they weren't shit out of Mother Nature's loving colon.

Yep, its 300 lbs of toxic battery technology. That and the extra weight from the fact that a Prius has luxury features and the Corolla does not. The batteries should be recycled in the end and both Honda and Toyota claim they will. The economic value probably makes it worth while.

The advantage isn't illusory unless you cherry pick the mileage. Plus hybid technology is still young. Early adopters indicate that a market exists (at least with current gas prices) and this provides incentive for further development over buying a Corola.

Quote:
A user here gets an average for 46mpg in his Prius.
A 2006 Corolla is rated 32/41mpg (city/hwy).
Obviously the Prius has an advantage here, but it depends on where someone does his driving. I'd bet that if it's a lot of highway miles they'll be almost even.

Googling shows that the average appears to be 48MPG ranging from 31 to 61MPG.

And then you use actual mileage vs rated mileage. From the same site the 2006 Corolla only got 35.5 MPG average with a range from 29 to 41 MPG.

48 vs 36. Annual fuel cost of $715 vs $1093. 3.4 tons of greenhouse gas emissions vs 5.2 tons. 96 cubic feet passenger space vs 89 cubic feet. 16 cubic feet lugggage vs 14 cubic feet. Luxury vs basic.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001c...umn=2&id=21882

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The 2007 Prius costs $20419.
The 2007 Corolla LE costs $13950.

Autoleveling HID headlamps, alloy wheels, spoiler, High Solar Energy-Absorbing Glass, rear wiper, fog lamps, push button start, climate control system, tilt steering with audio, climate and navigation function controls, side airbags, curtain airbags, antilock brakes, continuously variable transmission.

Standard.

Corolla LE. None of these. heck cruise control is an option as are side curtain air bags and anti-lock brakes.

The Toyota site says $21K for the Prius and $15K for the Corolla LE. Add automatic transmission, alloy wheels, spoiler, cruise control, ABS and airbags and the price is $19K.

You can't order leather seats, nav system, etc that you can order on the Prius.

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There is nothing wrong with owning a Prius. By the same token, there's nothing wrong with owning a Lamborghini Murcielago or a Corvette Z06. I'd love to have any one of the three, but not because the Prius is going to save the environment or because the Lamborghini and Z06 will lower my track times, but because they're cool, because of their image (although, to be fair, the Z06 does offer Ferrari performance at 1/3rd the price).

Well, a Murciélago or Z06 WOULD lower MY track times which wouldn't be saying much. Well a Z06 would anyway. I'd likely blow a shift on the Murciélago given my last not so hot performance unless I happened to have Kobe's wife's car.

Likewise a Prius does save gas. "Save the environment" is a taller order. Even there, should the Prius drive demand for hybrids in general it should have a positive impact that outweighs its individual performance. Its the first hybrid that didn't suck.

Vinea
post #67 of 81
And to think, a Prius is behind this whole debate.
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post #68 of 81
I don't think a Prius will save the environment, but it arguably is more environmentally friendly.

I look at it similarly to the PBS pledge drives. No, my $35 donation to public television doesn't do much by itself, but if thousands of people give $35 too, then we're getting somewhere.

No, one person driving one Prius won't save the earth or rebuild the ozone layer, but a thousand Priuses will be much less damaging to the environment than a thousand Corollas.
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post #69 of 81
I do not believe the difference between 1000 Priuses and 1000 Corollas is significant.

Again, this is not an argument for the internal combustion engine. As evidenced by my thread about the Tesla roadster, I'd love to have an electric car.
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post #70 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

Again, this is not an argument for the internal combustion engine. As evidenced by my thread about the Tesla roadster, I'd love to have an electric car.

I don't see the distinction you're making.

Like hybrid vehicles, with electric cars aren't you similarly increasing the production externalities to reduce fossil-fuel consumption at the pump? I'm not saying that's a bad argument. I think it's a very good one because it's much easier in theory to regulate factory emissions than to regulate billions of little murphy's-law-mobiles.
post #71 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

Gas mileage estimates from car companies come from the EPA. Since real world mileage is invariably lower, there are problems with the accuracy of the test used by the government.

Ironically the Prius and other Synergy-drive based hyrbids have a computer screen that displays the real-life, real-time and historical MPG. Who knows what the EPA does, but obviously its out of whack with reality... and not just for the Prius but for all cars. Sorta like the screen sizes for CRT monitors and HD capacities.

Perhaps the MPG ratings are for coasting downhill all the time, sorta the opposite of "back in my day I walked to school uphill in the snow both ways."
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post #72 of 81
Quote:
Like hybrid vehicles, with electric cars aren't you similarly increasing the production externalities to reduce fossil-fuel consumption at the pump?

Sure, but at least you are completely eliminating one side of it. Then all you have to do is start working on the other side.
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post #73 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmoNut

I don't understand how some here are arguing that hybrids have no beneficial impact on the environment. It seems to me that if it doesn't run the engine all the time (like a regular vehicle) and uses less gasoline to go the same distance (as a regular vehicle) then it would be better for the environment. Why is it not possible for a person who's concerned about the health of our planet to take advantage of that and not be a snob?

It's inexplicable, but I suppose anything that challenges our individual closely held viewpoints (no matter how irrational) can appear to be a personal threat. That's just human nature.

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post #74 of 81
It is possible for someone to want to help the planet, but the Prius isn't a vehicle that does that in a significant, important way. Perhaps in the sense that high demand for the Prius might motivate car companies, but to me the Prius is just as much a sign of how perverted the idea is as it is a nod in the right direction.

I would actually argue that Honda and Toyota going so gimmicky (Element and Prius) has actually hurt the "alternative" market. I think the Civic, Accord, and Camry hybrids are a bigger deal than the Prius because those are mainstream vehicles.

If you look at Toyota's lineup there is no reason for the Prius to exist except for it's hybrid drivetrain. Give that to the Camry and the Corolla... now what?

The real question: Why didn't Honda/Toyota just go straight to hybrid Corolla/Camry/Civic/Accord? Why the gimmicks? And if you're going to go with gimmicks, why not go bigtime and do all-electric or plug-in hybrid?
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post #75 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

And if you're going to go with gimmicks, why not go bigtime and do all-electric or plug-in hybrid?

The next-generaton Prius will be a plug-in hybrid with an estimated 150 mpg. Perceived market-bias against plug-ins was the only reason Toyota didn't go with that more efficient set-up in the first place. Although I think two things changed the company's thinking on that point: 1) a sizable after-market developed for converting Prius engines to plug-in capability and, more importantly, 2) the need to differentiate their products from increased competition in the hybrid-vehicle category. Toyota feels it can do that with the *huge* gains of plug-in capability.

Edit: I just remembered there was some controversy about the 150 mpg quote-- someone messed up units or something. I think it's going to just under 100 mpg.
post #76 of 81
Nick, I found the link for the hydraulic hybrid truck I was talking about before.

If anyone wants to keep up with auto news, I like to read:
I could link to others but you could just as easily read through the recent pages and find plenty.
post #77 of 81
Whoa. Business 2.0 thinks that this will be a game-changer.

And if those claims are true, it most certainly will.

Anyone around here have info on this new engine? How'd we miss this?
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post #78 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

The next-generaton Prius will be a plug-in hybrid with an estimated 150 mpg. Perceived market-bias against plug-ins was the only reason Toyota didn't go with that more efficient set-up in the first place. Although I think two things changed the company's thinking on that point: 1) a sizable after-market developed for converting Prius engines to plug-in capability and, more importantly, 2) the need to differentiate their products from increased competition in the hybrid-vehicle category. Toyota feels it can do that with the *huge* gains of plug-in capability.

Edit: I just remembered there was some controversy about the 150 mpg quote-- someone messed up units or something. I think it's going to just under 100 mpg.

One big problem with the plug in hybrid is that you could end up doing worse for the environment based on where you get your electricity from. I think I remember that you live in PA. PA = big coal. Don't plug in your hybrid. Your gas burning car is better in terms of CO2 and other pollutants. In you live in Nevada ... PLUG in. Hydroelectric = clean. So just because it's electric doesn't mean it's clean.

I heard of a web site where you could put in where you lived and it would tell you if you were better off burning gas or plugging. I'll try to find it.
post #79 of 81
post #80 of 81
Fords newer hybrid is supposed to be good to. It's geared for both low and high speed using a combination of planetary gears. Too bad the rest of the car will suck.
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