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Keith Olbermann is a god amongst men

post #1 of 59
Thread Starter 
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Cou...t-Bush-911.mov

Below is the transcript of his poignant speech. Regardless of party affiliation, really listen to his words. He sends a powerful message to the White House and it's about time someone spoke up with this level of eloquence.

Quote:
And lastly tonight a Special Comment on why we are here. Half a lifetime ago, I worked in this now-empty space.
And for 40 days after the attacks, I worked here again, trying to make sense of what happened, and was yet to happen, as a reporter.
And all the time, I knew that the very air I breathed contained the remains of thousands of people, including four of my friends, two in the planes and as I discovered from those "missing posters" seared still into my soul two more in the Towers.
And I knew too, that this was the pyre for hundreds of New York policemen and firemen, of whom my family can claim half a dozen or more, as our ancestors.
I belabor this to emphasize that, for me this was, and is, and always shall be, personal.
And anyone who claims that I and others like me are "soft", or have "forgotten" the lessons of what happened here is at best a grasping, opportunistic, dilettante and at worst, an idiot whether he is a commentator, or a Vice President, or a President.
However. Of all the things those of us who were here five years ago could have forecast of all the nightmares that unfolded before our eyes, and the others that unfolded only in our minds none of us could have predicted this.
Five years later this space is still empty.
Five years later there is no Memorial to the dead.
Five years later there is no building rising to show with proud defiance that we would not have our America wrung from us, by cowards and criminals.
Five years later this countrys wound is still open.
Five years later this countrys mass grave is still unmarked.
Five years later this is still just a background for a photo-op.
It is beyond shameful.

At the dedication of the Gettysburg Memorial barely four months after the last soldier staggered from another Pennsylvania field, Mr. Lincoln said "we can not dedicate - we can not consecrate we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Lincoln used those words to immortalize their sacrifice.
Today our leaders could use those same words to rationalize their reprehensible inaction. "We can nto dedicate we can not consecrate we can not hallow this ground." So we wont.
Instead they bicker and buck-pass. They thwart private efforts, and jostle to claim credit for initiatives that go nowhere. They spend the money on irrelevant wars, and elaborate self-congratulations, and buying off columnists to write how good a job theyre doing instead of doing any job at all.
Five years later, Mr. Bush we are still fighting the terrorists on these streets. And look carefully, sir on these 16 empty acres, the terrorists are clearly, still winning.
And, in a crime against every victim here and every patriotic sentiment you mouthed but did not enact, you have done nothing about it.

And there is something worse still than this vast gaping hole in this city, and in the fabric of our nation.
There is, its symbolism of the promise unfulfilled, the urgent oath, reduced to lazy execution.
The only positive on 9/11 and the days and weeks that so slowly and painfully followed it was the unanimous humanity, here, and throughout the country. The government, the President in particular, was given every possible measure of support.
Those who did not belong to his party tabled that.
Those who doubted the mechanics of his election ignored that.
Those who wondered of his qualifications forgot that.
History teaches us that nearly unanimous support of a government cannot be taken away from that government, by its critics.
It can only be squandered by those who use it not to heal a nations wounds, but to take political advantage.
Terrorists did not come and steal our newly-regained sense of being American first, and political, fiftieth. Nor did the Democrats. Nor did the media. Nor did the people.
The President and those around him did that.
They promised bi-partisanship, and then showed that to them, "bi-partisanship" meant that their party would rule and the rest would have to follow, or be branded, with ever-escalating hysteria, as morally or intellectually confused; as appeasers; as those who, in the Vice Presidents words yesterday, "validate the strategy of the terrorists."
They promised protection, and then showed that to them "protection" meant going to war against a despot whose hand they had once shaken a despot who we now learn from our own Senate Intelligence Committee, hated Al-Qaeda as much as we did.
The polite phrase for how so many of us were duped into supporting a war, on the false premise that it had something to do with 9/11, is "lying by implication."
The impolite phrase, is "impeachable offense."
Not once in now five years has this President ever offered to assume responsibility for the failures that led to this empty space and to this, the current, curdled, version of our beloved country.
Still, there is a last snapping flame from a final candle of respect and fairness: even his most virulent critics have never suggested he alone bears the full brunt of the blame for 9/11.
Half the time, in fact, this President has been so gently treated, that he has seemed not even to be the man most responsible for anything in his own administration.
Yet what is happening this very night?
A mini-series, created, influenced possibly financed by the most radical and cold of domestic political Machiavellis, continues to be televised into our homes.
The documented truths of the last fifteen years are replaced by bald-faced lies; the talking points of the current regime parroted; the whole sorry story blurred, by spin, to make the party out of office seem vacillating and impotent, and the party in office, seem like the only option.
How dare you, Mr. President, after taking cynical advantage of the unanimity and love, and transmuting it into fraudulent war and needless death after monstrously transforming it into fear and suspicion and turning that fear into the campaign slogan of three elections how dare you or those around you ever "spin" 9/11.

Just as the terrorists have succeeded are still succeeding as long as there is no memorial and no construction here at Ground Zero
So too have they succeeded, and are still succeeding as long as this government uses 9/11 as a wedge to pit Americans against Americans.
This is an odd point to cite a television program, especially one from March of 1960. But as Disneys continuing sell-out of the truth (and this country) suggests, even television programs can be powerful things.
And long ago, a series called "The Twilight Zone" broadcast a riveting episode entitled "The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street."
In brief: a meteor sparks rumors of an invasion by extra-terrestrials disguised as humans. The electricity goes out. A neighbor pleads for calm.
Suddenly his car and only his car starts. Someone suggests he must be the alien. Then another mans lights go on.
As charges and suspicion and panic overtake the street, guns are inevitably produced.
An "alien" is shot but he turns out to be just another neighbor, returning from going for help.
The camera pulls back to a near-by hill, where two extra-terrestrials areseen, manipulating a small device that can jam electricity. The veteran tells his novice that theres no need to actually attack, that you just turn off a few of the human machines and then, "they pick the most dangerous enemy they can find, and its themselves."
And then, in perhaps his finest piece of writing, Rod Serling sums it up with words of remarkable prescience, given where we find ourselves tonight.
"The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices - to be found only in the minds of men.
"For the record, prejudices can kill and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own for the children, and the children yet unborn."

When those who dissent are told time and time again as we will be, if not tonight by the President, then tomorrow by his portable public chorus that he is preserving our freedom, but that if we use any of it, we are somehow un-American
When we are scolded, that if we merely question, we have "forgotten the lessons of 9/11" look into this empty space behind me and the bi-partisanship upon which this administration also did not build, and tell me:
Who has left this hole in the ground?
We have not forgotten, Mr. President.
You have.
May this country forgive you.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #2 of 59
Thanks for posting this-- I watched the video clip and was really blown away. Wish we had a few more like him.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #3 of 59
Wow.

*applause*
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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post #4 of 59
Mr. Olbermann certainly knows how to turn passion into speech as evidenced by his monologue on Katrina a week after the hurricane last year.
post #5 of 59
A True American

May we turn this country around and shape a brighter future.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #6 of 59
I think the memorial should have been leaving the site exactly as it was to emphasize that we'll never try to pretend it didn't happen. The current memorial design is cavalier and arrogant.
post #7 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

I think the memorial should have been leaving the site exactly as it was to emphasize that we'll never try to pretend it didn't happen.

I think the best response is just the opposite -- I say rebuild the site almost exactly as it was, especially the twin towers. Better safety design, and each of the towers one single story taller, as a small symbolic gesture of defiance.

No one is going to forget, or pretend 9/11 didn't happen if you do that.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #8 of 59
Two points:

Bush is not responsible for the hang-ups that have led to no memorial thusfar.

Those who are not in power will always find it reprehensible to play politics when it's not appropriate...until those people are back in power and they do it themselves. Politicians will always play politics whenever they can and their opponents will always criticize them.
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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post #9 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline

I think the best response is just the opposite -- I say rebuild the site almost exactly as it was, especially the twin towers. Better safety design, and each of the towers one single story taller, as a small symbolic gesture of defiance.

No one is going to forget, or pretend 9/11 didn't happen if you do that.

Defiance = asking for it.
post #10 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

I think the memorial should have been leaving the site exactly as it was to emphasize that we'll never try to pretend it didn't happen.

I understand your point, but not rebuilding something there would send a statement to our enemies that we're unwilling to rebuild stuff that they destroy. Not a good message, either.
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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post #11 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

Defiance = asking for it.

Absolutely anything built on that site is going to be a major target. Short of hanging giant banners displaying the famous Danish Mohammed cartoons from the buildings, I doubt that anything we do, no matter how defiantly or timidly or differently from what was there before, will make any significant difference in the status of the WTC as a future possible terrorist target.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #12 of 59
Wow......that really says it all doesn't it and anyone who thinks Bush couldn't have gotten something done there by now if he wanted to is crazy. The "leader of the free world" can't get a memorial and an office building built? Please.......and Pataki is just another jackass.
post #13 of 59
Indeed. The idea that the President of the United States couldn't pull people into a room and say "I want a memorial there by the end of the first year, and if I don't have it, I'm DRAFTING ALL OF YOU" (or some other such threat) is preposterous.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #14 of 59
To which I should add:

1) Olbermann has really taken the gloves off lately, which I like.

2) Where are all the wingnuts calling him SHRILL? HE'S SHRILL!! SO HORRIBLY SHRILL!!!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #15 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

To which I should add:

1) Olbermann has really taken the gloves off lately, which I like.

2) Where are all the wingnuts calling him SHRILL? HE'S SHRILL!! SO HORRIBLY SHRILL!!!

It's not the shrillness so much as the irrational seething hatred.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #16 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

It's not the shrillness so much as the irrational seething hatred.

I think you're confused, Adda. If you check your dictionary widget, you'll find this definition:

shrill 
adjective, -er, -est, verb, noun, adverb
adjective
1.\thigh-pitched and piercing in sound quality made by a liberal: a shrill cry.
2.\ta liberal producing such a sound.
3.\tliberal comments full of or characterized by such a sound: shrill music.
4.\tbetraying some strong liberal emotion or liberal attitude in an exaggerated amount, as antagonism or defensiveness.
5.\tmarked by great liberal intensity; keen: the shrill, incandescent light of the exploding bomb.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #17 of 59
He's a bit too far to the left for most. I think his ratings reflect this.
"some catch on faster than others"
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"some catch on faster than others"
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post #18 of 59
Yeah. 4th in his timeslot. What a waste. I say MSNBC packs it in and replaces him with America's Funniest Videos.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #19 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

Yeah. 4th in his timeslot. What a waste. I say MSNBC packs it in and replaces him with America's Funniest Videos.

Either way, someone's getting kicked in the nuts.

A' Thank You.
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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post #20 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

Indeed. The idea that the President of the United States couldn't pull people into a room and say "I want a memorial there by the end of the first year, and if I don't have it, I'm DRAFTING ALL OF YOU" (or some other such threat) is preposterous.

How many threads would the leftists here have launched condemning such a dictatorial userpation of powers?

V/R,
Aries 1B
"I pictured myself sitting in the shade of a leafy tree in a public park, a stylus in hand, a shiny Apple Tablet computer in my lap, and a pouty Jennifer Connelly stirring a pitcher of gimlets a...
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"I pictured myself sitting in the shade of a leafy tree in a public park, a stylus in hand, a shiny Apple Tablet computer in my lap, and a pouty Jennifer Connelly stirring a pitcher of gimlets a...
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post #21 of 59
None.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #22 of 59
How many threads would've been started had this tragedy happened on Gore's watch?

1,000,000,000,000 demanding his resignation and his head on a platter.

But I digress.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #23 of 59
it would have been the exact same reactions from the opposite sides of the fence. to suggest or believe otherwise is pure naiveté.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #24 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate

How many threads would've been started had this tragedy happened on Gore's watch?

1,000,000,000,000 demanding his resignation and his head on a platter.

But I digress.

Well, I think a near equal number of people demanded Bush's resignation

I've given up hope at this point. I really kinda want him to be the next Nixon.
post #25 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries 1B

How many threads would the leftists here have launched condemning such a dictatorial userpation of powers?

V/R,
Aries 1B

There'd have been no complaint from me. I'd have said "good job," just as I tend to when I talk about Bush's immigration guest worker program.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #26 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by rageous

it would have been the exact same reactions from the opposite sides of the fence.

What sides of the fence? Democrat/Republican? Liberal/Conservative? Either way, they certainly don't react the same way. Seattle, Lewinsky...examples don't even need more than one word to identify them. And seeing as so many Republicans/Conservatives/Hawks seem to think they own the 9/11 tragedy...

I know some people get a bunch self-satisfaction and delusions of objectivity from proclaiming "both sides of the fence are the same," but it's just not true. It doesn't take a value judgement to see it. Quite the opposite. And recognizing the distinct characters of different political groups certainly doesn't require ignoring the similarities.
post #27 of 59
Quote:
Bush is not responsible for the hang-ups that have led to no memorial thusfar.

Of course not. He has no responsibility to do anything ever. Leave the poor man alone!


Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

It's not the shrillness so much as the irrational seething hatred.

Irrational?
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #28 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate

None.


Priceless! Thanks for the laugh.

V/R,

Aries 1B
"I pictured myself sitting in the shade of a leafy tree in a public park, a stylus in hand, a shiny Apple Tablet computer in my lap, and a pouty Jennifer Connelly stirring a pitcher of gimlets a...
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"I pictured myself sitting in the shade of a leafy tree in a public park, a stylus in hand, a shiny Apple Tablet computer in my lap, and a pouty Jennifer Connelly stirring a pitcher of gimlets a...
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post #29 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

There'd have been no complaint from me. I'd have said "good job," just as I tend to when I talk about Bush's immigration guest worker program.



You guys are good! Really, look into standup!

V/R,

Aries 1B
"I pictured myself sitting in the shade of a leafy tree in a public park, a stylus in hand, a shiny Apple Tablet computer in my lap, and a pouty Jennifer Connelly stirring a pitcher of gimlets a...
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post #30 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant

What sides of the fence? Democrat/Republican? Liberal/Conservative? Either way, they certainly don't react the same way. Seattle, Lewinsky...examples don't even need more than one word to identify them. And seeing as so many Republicans/Conservatives/Hawks seem to think they own the 9/11 tragedy...

I know some people get a bunch self-satisfaction and delusions of objectivity from proclaiming "both sides of the fence are the same," but it's just not true. It doesn't take a value judgement to see it. Quite the opposite. And recognizing the distinct characters of different political groups certainly doesn't require ignoring the similarities.

In brief:

If Gore were president, the Republicans would hammer away at anything they could that was negative and the Democrats would by and large defend Gore; all in regards to 9/11 and its aftermath. Just as is being done in the reverse now.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #31 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by rageous

In brief:

If Gore were president, the Republicans would hammer away at anything they could that was negative and the Democrats would by and large defend Gore; all in regards to 9/11 and its aftermath. Just as is being done in the reverse now.

Assuming 9/11 would have even happened with Gore as president. Maybe that's why some people hate Gore so much. He didn't try hard enough.
post #32 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by rageous

In brief:

If Gore were president, the Republicans would hammer away at anything they could that was negative and the Democrats would by and large defend Gore; all in regards to 9/11 and its aftermath. Just as is being done in the reverse now.

Perhaps, but that's so generalized it's virtually meaningless.

It also assumes a lot about "both sides of the fence," assumptions that simply aren't realistic. For instance, the "protest set" and their sympathizers are part of a large and visible heterogeneous liberal movement that simply doesn't exist on the right, just as there is no huge leftist political movement analogous to Christianism. It's important because, by and large, they interact with politics and governments (emphasis on the plural) in entirely different ways.

On top of that, the values of different political groups creates differences in the tactics and intensity of reactions to different events and issues. Plus, there is the fact that people in certain positions have far more influence than others.

Personally, I highly doubt that Gore would have made it through two terms acting the way Bush has. I also doubt that a Gore administration and the political apparatus behind it (including individual supporters) would have made the same decisions in the same way. No Cheney, no Rummy, no Bush, etc would have likely led to very different policies, making the course of history very different.

Importantly, the absence of a Democratic Rove unquestionably means that the political environment and debate would be completely different.
post #33 of 59
Shame that Olbermann, mindful of his employment status at a large mainstream media corporation, was not free to say what he could and should have said. But it was very good stuff, coinstraints or not.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant

Perhaps, but that's so generalized it's virtually meaningless.

It also assumes a lot about "both sides of the fence," assumptions that simply aren't realistic. For instance, the "protest set" and their sympathizers are part of a large and visible heterogeneous liberal movement that simply doesn't exist on the right, just as there is no huge leftist political movement analogous to Christianism. It's important because, by and large, they interact with politics and governments (emphasis on the plural) in entirely different ways.

On top of that, the values of different political groups creates differences in the tactics and intensity of reactions to different events and issues. Plus, there is the fact that people in certain positions have far more influence than others.

Personally, I highly doubt that Gore would have made it through two terms acting the way Bush has. I also doubt that a Gore administration and the political apparatus behind it (including individual supporters) would have made the same decisions in the same way. No Cheney, no Rummy, no Bush, etc would have likely led to very different policies, making the course of history very different.

Importantly, the absence of a Democratic Rove unquestionably means that the political environment and debate would be completely different.


You're addressing something utterly different than me. So I'm not going to argue with you. <3
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #35 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by rageous

If Gore were president...

If Gore had been president on 9/11 (discounting the good possibility he would have been paying attention to his PDBs and might have stopped the attack), the Republican Attack Machine would have been in full swing on 9/12.

"Did Gore fail to protected the American people?" and the like would be the caption at the bottom of the screen on Fox News during all the coverage of the aftermath.

Drudge would have been openly speculating about Gore connections with Al Qaeda. Ann Coulter would simply make an outright accusation of the same.

O'Reilly and Rush and all the rest would have been talking up a storm about Democrats being weak on defense.

Republican members of Congress would have been screaming for a Senate investigation and talking loudly about impeachment.

Please... some of these political games work the same way regardless of which party is reacting to its opposite, but let's not pretend that the Republicans haven't developed their own special brand of unrelenting nastiness here.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #36 of 59
okay folks, let's review so you all get off of it:

Quote:
Northgate:

How many threads would've been started had this tragedy happened on Gore's watch?

1,000,000,000,000 demanding his resignation and his head on a platter.

But I digress.

Quote:
Me: it would have been the exact same reactions from the opposite sides of the fence. to suggest or believe otherwise is pure naiveté.

I'm talking about what the reactions in these forums would have been, which is what Northgate was talking about. Move on.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #37 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by rageous

You're addressing something utterly different than me.

No, it's the same thing. My point is that it wouldn't "have been the exact same reactions from the opposite sides of the fence" because the different political groups don't have the same kinds of reactions or use the same tactics and they react differently and with varying degrees of intesity depending on the issue.
post #38 of 59
of course. there's no way the right wings posters of this forum would have increasingly got on Gore's case and there's no way the left wing posters of this forum would have defended Gore in face of such affronts.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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post #39 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by rageous

of course. there's no way the right wings posters of this forum would have increasingly got on Gore's case and there's no way the left wing posters of this forum would have defended Gore in face of such affronts.

You're reducing the dynamics here to the barest skeletal outline -- yes, lefties will mostly defend lefties and attack righties, and yes, righties will mostly defend righties and attack lefties -- which is nothing more than a suspiciously convenient way of ignoring the details of how it's all done.

Is Rageous a bed-wetting axe murderer?

No, no... it's not an accusation, or even an a suggestion. I'm just asking! Can't I just ask the question? What? Are you afraid that I'm asking the question?
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #40 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by rageous

of course. there's no way the right wings posters of this forum would have increasingly got on Gore's case and there's no way the left wing posters of this forum would have defended Gore in face of such affronts.

Leftists are far less loyal to democrat politicians than you apparently realize. After all, it's one of the biggest problems that party has to face. In addition, if Gore had responded with a war against Iraq, wiretaps and torture, I'd be immensely surprised if leftists and liberals, here and elsewhere, backed him up. In addition, republicans and conservatives are significantly more hawkish as a whole.

That you think that each "side of the fence" is equally passionate about certain issues or equally loyal to politicians of each party (or the parties themselves) shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the characteristics of the different groups.

After all, there aren't even "side[s] of the fence." Someone like Sammi Jo would probably be as anti-wartime-Gore as she is anti-Bush. Depending on how a Gore admin approached a response, and depending on how a Gore admin behaved in the summer before 9/11, a Gore admin could easily have lost a lot of leftist and liberal support.

And with regard to a memorial, you can't possibly believe that the hawks would be as quiet about the lack of a memorial in year 6 of Gore as the "other side of the fence" is now. In this case, Keith Olbermann is "a god amongst men," while if the situation was reversed, he'd be drowned out by Limbaugh, Hannity, et al ranting out it week in and week out and this would be thread 10 on the subject. Or do you really think otherwise?
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