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Apple previews iTV set-top device - Page 2

post #41 of 344
9/12/06 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123

S-Video and composite won't support HD so if you want s-video and composite, get use to 640x480 (or 720x480). HDMI will support HD so maybe something else may be coming when iTV is ready. However, would they really release HD content on iTunes store when there is plenty of competition with HD-DVD and Blu-ray?

Which is precisely why iTMS & iTV need to cover HD. Why buy an iTV when we already have cable & satellite DVRs for SD video?

Apple has a small window of opportunity to use the internet/iTMS to beat other HD video services especially in countries outside the US where HD-TV deployment is still 6-12 months away. The competition could have lost the war before they fired a single shot. HD (& possibly BD playback) is the killer app for this product (broadband services permitting)

Unfortunately Steve is too US-centric to see this, maybe another will.

McD
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post #42 of 344
9/12/06 at 5:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by techno

Is ripping CD's illegal? Shouldn't be any difference. If I own it, I should be able to rip it for my personal use.

I'm not sure if Ripping them is illegal per say, but the software that bypasses the DRM might be or the use of said software to bypass the DRM is illegal. I think that Fair Use allows you to make back-ups though. Either way I think that there are ways to do this on the PC side and there is probably a Mac solution as well.
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post #43 of 344
9/12/06 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecking

Once a dvd is ripped it ceases to be a dvd and becomes a video file. Will the iTV be able to play video files is the real question.

And further, what kind of video files? It seams to me that they almost need to incorprate WMP file's since that is the dominate internet format today.
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post #44 of 344
9/12/06 at 5:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALM

Well, 802.11g is 54Mbits max (typical 25Mbits) and HDV (mpeg-2) stream is 25Mbits too. In cable they limit it by 18Mbits and typically it's between 13 and 15. I even saw 8 once. So it looks like technically 802.11g can handle HD video, but it will consume almost all bandwidth. On the other hand if Apple going to transmit h.264, then with the same quality it should take less bandwidth since compression is higher.

Anyways it will make air traffic pretty tight. For example you probably won't be able to watch iTV and downloading next episode at the same time.

It doesn't need to be MPEG-2 either. The QoS concerns can probably be handled with a little bit of buffering.
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post #45 of 344
9/12/06 at 6:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by techno

Is ripping CD's illegal? Shouldn't be any difference. If I own it, I should be able to rip it for my personal use.

You should but it's THEM, THE OTHERS who think their 'personal use' is also their friends personal use, friends' friends, gnutella, the world...

I'm sure you'd never dream of it which is why you're fine with DRM, you can make as many copies as you like coz only you can see 'em

McD
Android proves (as Windows & VHS did before it) that if you want to control people, give us choices and the belief we're capable of making them. We're all 'living' the American dream.
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post #46 of 344
9/12/06 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by @homenow

And further, what kind of video files? It seams to me that they almost need to incorprate WMP file's since that is the dominate internet format today.


Yea right like thats gonna happen
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post #47 of 344
9/12/06 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecking

Would I do that? No never because it's wrong.

I would.

F*** Hollywood (to quote Ice Cube).
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post #48 of 344
9/12/06 at 6:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe

Well, when I first thought about it, this sounded great. Once you think about it a bit, it's probably going to be pretty limited in what video formats it can play back. It'll be interesting to see what the highest resolution it can play back at. It probably won't support any kind of end user plug-ins. I don't know, it's basically just an AirPort Express that supports video, which for $300 sounds awful expensive.

It is suppose to have an HDMI output. Seem pointless to have than unless it supported HD, so at least 1280 x 720.
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post #49 of 344
9/12/06 at 6:16pm
Just let it support the latest version of Quicktime, that has to be the baseline.

As far as HD, I read (MacRumors feed) that the Incredibles clip played during the presentation was HD.
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post #50 of 344
9/12/06 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by techno

Is ripping CD's illegal? Shouldn't be any difference. If I own it, I should be able to rip it for my personal use.

There shouldn't be, but in most legislations, there is.
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post #51 of 344
9/12/06 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solsun

Ummm.... Isn't ripping DVD's illegal? I don't think Apple will be going there...


It's perfectly legal to make a backup. I think your associating ripping with ripping something off. Two entirely different things.
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post #52 of 344
9/12/06 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacSuperiority

Yea right like thats gonna happen

If they offer plug-in technology, or even just allow it to use the Quicktime layer from the Host TV then it could use Flip4Mac to translate it to a Quicktime format for viewing on the iTV. The things that Apple has going for it are their content delivery and their expertiese in designing interfaces. They do not have enough content yet, and there is a lot of "free" or purchased (DIVIX and WMP) content on the internet that could be added to their arsenal if they are so "enlightened" as they did with MP3's on the iPod/iTunes. Apple needs consumers, and to get them they are going to have to make it as easy to use as possible, if they only allow content from their movie service then it will not look attractive to the consumer and they will be less likely to buy it. They also need to get the price point lower, it is essentially an EyeHome with WiFi which sold for $199 when it was released.
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post #53 of 344
9/12/06 at 6:31pm
Quote:
VGA (640x480) video? That will look fine on an iPod but it's going to look nasty on a "big flat screen TV" especially compared to the quality and features of £9.99 DVDs you can play on the £30 DVD player

DV res is 720x480. Standard DVDs will look the same as VGA video on a TV. It's pretty much the same resolution. Unless you're talking about a £30 DVD player that plays BlueRay disks...
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post #54 of 344
9/12/06 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by @homenow

And further, what kind of video files? It seams to me that they almost need to incorprate WMP file's since that is the dominate internet format today.


um... maybe on youtube, but ripped DVD's generally go to DIVX or XVID, (and occasionally to H264) and these play nicely using a Mac Mini and VLC.

I aggree with others that a $300 price point without a CPU or a hard drive is about $100 too much.

m
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post #55 of 344
9/12/06 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecking

Why rename it? iTV sounds like a fine name.

Because ITV already exists.
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post #56 of 344
9/12/06 at 7:22pm
I want it to record tv also.
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post #57 of 344
9/12/06 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gordy

As far as HD, I read (MacRumors feed) that the Incredibles clip played during the presentation was HD.

I saw that on the macrumors feed too, but I don't think it was accurate. He said those were the same videos purchased through iTunes and played on the ipod.
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post #58 of 344
9/12/06 at 7:26pm
I don't think that Steve showed us everything this thing can do. If he did, he would essentially be giving all his competitor's photocopiers a six month headstart. I am hopeful that this little box will do quite a bit more than was shwon today.
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post #59 of 344
9/12/06 at 7:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by merle

um... maybe on youtube, but ripped DVD's generally go to DIVX or XVID, (and occasionally to H264) and these play nicely using a Mac Mini and VLC.

I aggree with others that a $300 price point without a CPU or a hard drive is about $100 too much.

m

If it does those formats, for Quicktime to read them you need plug-ins and VLC is probably not the player that iTV will be using. Sure the plug-ins are free, but there is no guarantee (though it makes sense that it would use the same plug-ins that Quicktime does) that iTV will have a plug-in archetecture for the movies that it plays.
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post #60 of 344
9/12/06 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by @homenow

And further, what kind of video files? It seams to me that they almost need to incorprate WMP file's since that is the dominate internet format today.

It will play anything quicktime can play, and quicktime (via flip4mac) can play wmp files.
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post #61 of 344
9/12/06 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by @homenow

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this El Gato's EyeHome with built in wireless and Apple software? Were't they selling that for $199? About the only other thing that I see that is different is that you can link up to Quicktime movie trailers through the internet without a computer (?). I'm not trying to put Apple down, but at that price it seams to be a little low on features. A/D converters like EyeTV are less than that and offer a lot more to the consumer. I'm sure that we did not see all the features, and that Apple will probably hold some back for the next revision or so, but at this price it does not seem like a great deal.

El Gato's EyeHome isn't as mainstream as the iTV will be, simply by the scale on which Apple will produce and market them. Also, although I haven't yet watched the keynote, in the pictures it looks like it says "802.11 wireless" instead of "802.11g"... I wonder if Apple will be using 802.11n, which would make the components more expensive at this stage.
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post #62 of 344
9/12/06 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Dirk

El Gato's EyeHome isn't as mainstream as the iTV will be, simply by the scale on which Apple will produce and market them. Also, although I haven't yet watched the keynote, in the pictures it looks like it says "802.11 wireless" instead of "802.11g"... I wonder if Apple will be using 802.11n, which would make the components more expensive at this stage.

My point was that Apple's solution looks expensive compared to EyeHome. I would assume that Apple could get a better price on components and manufacturing due to the "economy of scale". Add to that the reduced cost of some of the components that would be in common and one would expect that Apple would come closer to, if not beating the smaller company's offering.

Apple can produce and market them in whatever ferver and quantity that they want, that doesn't mean people will buy them if Apple cannot convice them that it is a product that the need and want at a price that they can afford. Apple has had a bit of experience with that, Cube anyone? or Pipin, Newton, Quicktime camera, and I'm sure others.
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post #63 of 344
9/12/06 at 7:56pm
I like all things Apple, but I think a movie download service (be it from Apple, Amazon, or anyone else) is a less than necessary idea given the cost and current alternatives.

Why go to the time and expense ($9.99, $12,99, or $14.99) to buy one near DVD quality movie when for the same money, I can get all the movies I want in a month from Netflix on DVD? If I were inclined to do so (Im not) I could copy all those DVDs to my heart's content and/or rip them to my HD and save them on other media or share the ripped files with my two friends, or twenty friends, or 2 million friends on the internet . . .

I love movies and I applaud the apparent elegance of Apples offering (Amazon and others should be taking notes) but I have no need for this service so long as DVDs are readily available on a service like Netflix.
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post #64 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by baygbm

I like all things Apple, but I think a movie download service (be it from Apple, Amazon, or anyone else) is a less than necessary idea given the cost and current alternatives.

Why go to the time and expense ($9.99, $12,99, or $14.99) to buy one near DVD quality movie when for the same money, I can get all the movies I want in a month from Netflix on DVD? If I were inclined to do so (Im not) I could copy all those DVDs to my heart's content and/or rip them to my HD and save them on other media or share the ripped files with my two friends, or twenty friends, or 2 million friends on the internet . . .

I love movies and I applaud the apparent elegance of Apples offering (Amazon and others should be taking notes) but I have no need for this service so long as DVDs are readily available on a service like Netflix.


Netflix takes days to deliver 3 movies. I can download the same in a few hours, granted it costs 3 times as much...

If Apple were to offer a rental service, I'd be all over it. That way I can decide that night what movie I want to watch, and if I like it I can buy it
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post #65 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:08pm
If Apple is going to do anything with PVR functionality its not going to be via iTV... it will be via the Mac. This is simply a nice interface to a tv.
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post #66 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker

It's perfectly legal to make a backup. I think your associating ripping with ripping something off. Two entirely different things.

The illegal part isn't making backups, it is circumventing copy protection mechanisms, at least in the US, because of the DMCA. Last I heard, the EU is implementing similar legislation.
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post #67 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kernel_panic

Because ITV already exists.

and iTV software for the Mac already exists:
http://home.versanet.de/~athiede/itv.html

and if I remember right there used to be an Internet enabled TV that was called iTV:
http://www.welovemacs.com/itv.html
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post #68 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

It will play anything quicktime can play, and quicktime (via flip4mac) can play wmp files.

On your Mac sure, but I assume this box will do its own decoding of media streams/files (it certainly will have to for video). So, unless Apple supports decoding of Windows Media files on the box, I doudt you will be able to do it. Same for DiVX and other formats Apple doesn't usually support.
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post #69 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by @homenow

My point was that Apple's solution looks expensive compared to EyeHome. I would assume that Apple could get a better price on components and manufacturing due to the "economy of scale". Add to that the reduced cost of some of the components that would be in common and one would expect that Apple would come closer to, if not beating the smaller company's offering.

EyeHome doesn't even have the same capabilities. A regular digital video out is nice to have but not there.

From what I can tell, EyeHome will upscale video to HD, but won't plan an HD stream, 480p is the max file res that it will play. The scaling is easy, decoding high res video streams take a lot.
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post #70 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:23pm
I would be all over a rental service as well, but I can't see myself buying at those prices. Not with DVD prices being what they are. Hopefully a rental service will be added soon.
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post #71 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:32pm
Some random thoughts for your consideration:
  • HDMI is of no value over component unless you're HD.
  • The 802.11 n standard is non-finalized, so you can't really say you're n-compliant - yet.
  • The MacPro's that contained airport were delayed (mine included) - n-ready but not n-compliant?
  • People like myself considered spending this much on the DLO HomeDock, and this thing kicks that thing around the block.
  • Steve hinted at using this as a monitor. Picture yourself with a bluetooth keyboard by the La-Z-Boy, with your MacPro in the den, surfing on the big-a$$ plasma you just bought.
Comments?
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post #72 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:37pm
God bless Robert Morgan. He's got to be loving the iTV announcement.

Anyone know whatever happened to him?
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post #73 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariofreak85

Netflix takes days to deliver 3 movies. I can download the same in a few hours, granted it costs 3 times as much...

If Apple were to offer a rental service, I'd be all over it. That way I can decide that night what movie I want to watch, and if I like it I can buy it

For me, Netflix takes one day from shipping to me seeing it in my mailbox. I get better res than iTunes is offering and don't have to worry about malware or bad EULAs like what Amazon is offering.
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post #74 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:52pm
Has anyone else wondered why there's no DVD player in this thing? I realize that Apple is trying to put the focus on having a computer-centric media collection, but I'm pretty sure most people have both DVDs and video files. And ripping your entire DVD collection to hard drive isn't a good option for the hard drive space challenged (and is technically illegal).

I'm still looking for the all-in-one device: DVD player, media player via wireless network, HD video recorder. Looks like EyeTV hybrid + my MacBook Pro is still a better solution.

And ideally I'd prefer Blu-Ray or HD-DVD -- but the players are still too expensive. Still another year or two until they hit the mainstream.
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post #75 of 344
9/12/06 at 8:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariofreak85

Netflix takes days to deliver 3 movies. I can download the same in a few hours, granted it costs 3 times as much...

Exactly. Like I said, I have no need for this service so long as I have something like Netflix. If you live near a Netflix distribution center (and I do) turn around time is literally 24 hours for new movies... and because you always have 2, 3, or 5 movies in your possession (and more in your queue) you always have something you want to watch at home or on the way.

Everyone has a mailbox and a DVD player. Not everyone has a modern computer, with a fast internet connection, and the $299 iTV box necessary for this new service.

I'm sure Steve and other Apple execs have T1 at home. Do you? Downloading music is quick enough with DSL or cable but a near DVD quality movie?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad this option of movie downloads is there. But for now I'll stick with Netflix.
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post #76 of 344
9/12/06 at 9:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777

God bless Robert Morgan. He's got to be loving the iTV announcement.

Anyone know whatever happened to him?

Don't know what happened to him, but he was, what 5+ years ahead of iTV and same goes for the Intel switch. If Apple ever includes virtualization his "Red Box" predictions might come to pass as well.
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post #77 of 344
9/12/06 at 9:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe

I think you missed my point. I don't care what services and video content they have on the iTunes Music Store. This hardware isn't worth $300. Apple is going to have to get the cost of this down to $179 or even $149 for people to buy it.

My point was not whether you should or shouldn't be able to rip a DVD.. My point was that becaise ripping DVD's is illegal, Apple won't be providing software to do such a thing.
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post #78 of 344
9/12/06 at 9:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solsun

My point was not whether you should or shouldn't be able to rip a DVD.. My point was that becaise ripping DVD's is illegal, Apple won't be providing software to do such a thing.

Sorry about the above post, I replied to the wrong person\
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post #79 of 344
9/12/06 at 9:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkBait

Some random thoughts for your consideration:
  • HDMI is of no value over component unless you're HD.
  • The 802.11 n standard is non-finalized, so you can't really say you're n-compliant - yet.
  • The MacPro's that contained airport were delayed (mine included) - n-ready but not n-compliant?
  • People like myself considered spending this much on the DLO HomeDock, and this thing kicks that thing around the block.
  • Steve hinted at using this as a monitor. Picture yourself with a bluetooth keyboard by the La-Z-Boy, with your MacPro in the den, surfing on the big-a$$ plasma you just bought.
Comments?

Plasma? ....nah, they're yesterday's news.... LCD is more like it.
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post #80 of 344
9/12/06 at 9:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio

Has anyone else wondered why there's no DVD player in this thing?

Because people already have DVD players?
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