Lies for the masses? Why

just dropping this here while I construct the argument to go with it. Back later

http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/noblelie.htm

hey, you weren't supposed to start till I blew the whistle!

nevermind, lets have this debate instead.

DMZ. What you are saying? ... You are saying that Christian Culture created Jesus in the image of what they were thinking, and not that Jesus created Christian Culture.

I'd have to agree.

But then I would agree that Christian Culture was created by the educated wealthy elite as hardeehar says.

I thought youd disagree. Let me rethink - you must be saying....













Jesus Christ IS the 'bottom' of culture.....

Hell Yes. I'd agree

Anyhow, seeing as we've all understood the original point without me having to make an argument for/against it. What do you think.

Is a 'noble lie' morally correct?

unless the story of Jesus already existed in other cultures and it was developed? Like by those Educated Jews displaced by war - who had been absorbed into Greek culture and had been studying in Alexandria - say around 50BC

why's that?

alas you humour me WRT Matthew, and as it is past midnight, I must elope to Nod. Lets talk about noble lies though. Yes or No?

i cracked your +1 code Ena and myself agree on the same things. What stands between us is this concept of noble lies.

careful, you might arouse the interest of the wrong types with such language. Boddingtons I care not for.

Its all about Noble Lies. Everything can be resolved around justifying Noble lies.

and i always thought dmz stood for dead mans zone. A ww1 reference. What next 'CLY'?

Indeed, one of those statements is pure shite.

I'd love to chat tonight, but Im so busy...

pop a couple of boddingtons, i think I understood you better last night.

you need to speak nicely to segovius

Let me try to construct on the fly the argument I was going to make with the original post.

Noble Lies. A necessary evil. There are stupid idiotic people in the world. Fact. There are people who cant function for themselves and need a noble lie to activate them to do something. They're not doing it for this life, but they're doing it for the promise of a better life when they're dead.

Plato realised this. On the surface, a noble lie - to mere average people if they discover it will make them angry, and disgusted with discovering the lie. They then have to make a choice. Accept that the things they believed were a lie and seek out new pastures, or deny there was ever a lie and continue to be subjected to it.

In Plato's world, society wouldn't function if everyone knew the truth. - There would be those who accepted the truth, but who had not become wise. A Stupid person knowing the truth is arguably more dangerous than a smart person who doesn't know.

Therefore a noble lie must be constructed, so that everyone is controlled for their own benefit and for society as a whole until they have become wise enough to handle the revealed truth in its plain unadulterated form, without becoming angry or destructive, or using the truth within the lie for selfish benefit.

A noble lie therefor, while a disgraceful concept, is actually the best way to stop society harming or destructing itself. Those who are smart and wise enough, will eventually go on to discover the lie, but by the time they have, they will have realised the reason why the lie needs to be maintained.

Therefore this lie, is still maintained by the wise people who have discovered its true nature. It is an act of compassion, protecting society from the people who would otherwise degenerate it of their own accord, and protecting society from people who knew the nature of the lie, but were not wise enough to realise that it was the only way for society to maintain itself.

Which is one way of looking at it through a certain filter.

But what happens when - Plato being wise, knew what society had to be told to keep it functioning. There would be by default, people who knew the nature of the lie and were wise. These were the people at the top - and within themselves they freely and openenly could discuss the lie, knowing that they were wise enough to understand the implications of the lie and its consequences. These were the truly free people. They maintained the lie, for the benefit of everyone.

There were people who suspected the lie, but were not wise enough to conduct themselves if the true nature of the lie, were disclosed to them, so the Guardians of the lie, maintained at all times that the lie was true - because these people could go either way - loose cannons.

There were people who never suspected the lie, and were happy to maintain themselves by being controlled by it. They would never be capable of handling the nature of the lie as it would make them angry and it was best that it was never disclosed to them.

And there were people who never suspeded the lie, and were willfully acting within its boudaries. Infact they positively wanted to be lied too.

Now the problem is, that you have a pyramid here that functions only when the people at the top are aware of the lie, why it is necessary, and why it must be maintained, and the essential part of being at the top of the pyramid, is that you can know the nature of the lie and still function as required with genuine compassion for the rest of the group. ie you cannot be corrupted by the revelation the lie discloses. Naturally, the people at the top are easily outnumbered by the lower classes, but they maintain their position by 1) Maintaining the lie and 2) eing repected by people lower in the pyramid to act on their best intentions with the wisdom they display.

I think eventually, this system is doomed to failure.

As society gets bigger and bigger, there are less and less people at the top of the pyramid to nurture society compared to the rabble at the bottom. Eventually, the voice of the rabble becomes strong, and will force its way into positions at the top, where they will learn the nature of the lie, but they wouldn't have the wisdom - so in effect they become corrupted by it, and see that they can use the lie to enslave and control the lower classes of society for personal gain, and not the benefit of society.

And this is what i believe we have in todays governments.

dmz, you've fell silent!