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Lies for the masses? Why

post #1 of 40
Thread Starter 
just dropping this here while I construct the argument to go with it. Back later

http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/noblelie.htm
post #2 of 40
Culture comes from the bottom up, not the other way round. Offering two extremes, from Hitler to Luther: those leaders were simply articulating what a great many people where feeling.

Communism tried this 'nobel lie', thing but without being "religious", they couldn't make it work.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #3 of 40
Bullshit.

Culture is defined by the people who can move economies. Only what sticks is selected by the people who operate in those economies.

Luther and Hitler didn't change the culture of their people so those are false examples. The businessmen of the spice trade changed the culture of the German people leading to Luther's time. More recently, it was the Americans who changed German culture.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #4 of 40
Luther didn't change the culture?

Yes, he most certainly did, it was called the Reformation -- when Luther nailed the 95 thesis to the door at Wittenburg, roughly a third of Europe was protestant.

Also, centrally planned economies barely function -- and some would argue they can only function with the addition of a black market.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #5 of 40
Luther gave princes a rational for extending feudalism into the religious. Again, it wasn't Luther, it was the educated princes who could actually read his bible -- the wealthy, the top-down.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #6 of 40
Grab a book on the history of the Reformation, you can't conjure up grass-roots movements any more than you can dismiss the effects of the Bible being translated into German, or the effects of moveable type. Tapping into a disgruntled mass' sensibilities over things like indulgences, etc., doesn't amount to fooling people.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_luther

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #7 of 40
The significance is that the people of Luther's time had no power to do anything except in the cities. Yes, it is significant that he put his theses in a city, but the people didn't take the initiative. The educated class did. The revolution came from the top-down. Luther, himself, was a member of the upper class...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #8 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

The significance is that the people of Luther's time had no power to do anything except in the cities. Yes, it is significant that he put his theses in a city, but the people didn't take the initiative. The educated class did. The revolution came from the top-down. Luther, himself, was a member of the upper class...

Top-down as in leadership, not control. The serious problems with the Roman church had been brewing for more than 150 years. Luther did not beguile anyone into flipping out and starting several new denominations. He basically said what everyone was thinking -- and in the 95 thesis the populace at large found its tipping point. The same goes for Lenin -- almost an exact parallel.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #9 of 40
The leadership came from the educated/wealthy and that is significant.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #10 of 40
Thread Starter 
hey, you weren't supposed to start till I blew the whistle!

nevermind, lets have this debate instead.

DMZ. What you are saying? ... You are saying that Christian Culture created Jesus in the image of what they were thinking, and not that Jesus created Christian Culture.

I'd have to agree.

But then I would agree that Christian Culture was created by the educated wealthy elite as hardeehar says.
post #11 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

hey, you weren't supposed to start till I blew the whistle!

nevermind, lets have this debate instead.

DMZ. What you are saying? ... You are saying that Christian Culture created Jesus in the image of what they were thinking, and not that Jesus created Christian Culture.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............













No.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #12 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............













No.

I thought youd disagree. Let me rethink - you must be saying....













Jesus Christ IS the 'bottom' of culture.....

Hell Yes. I'd agree
post #13 of 40
Thread Starter 
Anyhow, seeing as we've all understood the original point without me having to make an argument for/against it. What do you think.

Is a 'noble lie' morally correct?
post #14 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

I thought youd disagree. Let me rethink - you must be saying....













Jesus Christ IS the 'bottom' of culture.....

Hell Yes. I'd agree

No, inventing Jesus, at least from the written records --- it's just too much to ask. It'd would have to be literary genius on an unprecedented scale; Idiot savantness to the umpteenth power.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #15 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

No, inventing Jesus, at least from the written records --- it's just too much to ask. It'd would have to be genius on an unprecedented scale; Idiot savantness to the umpteenth power.

unless the story of Jesus already existed in other cultures and it was developed? Like by those Educated Jews displaced by war - who had been absorbed into Greek culture and had been studying in Alexandria - say around 50BC
post #16 of 40
Marc, you aren't playing fair.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
post #17 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

unless the story of Jesus already existed in other cultures and it was developed? Like by those Educated Jews displaced by war - who had been absorbed into Greek culture and had been studying in Alexandria - say around 50BC

Ha! I been reading on Greek Culture, don't get me started!

Seriously, they would have needed a braintrust just to get all the prophetic references in Matthew to jibe with the other three gospels (and the OT), it would demand near-clairvoyance.

(also, I'm about to crack another Boddingtons, any advice or warnings?)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #18 of 40
Not really, revising in retrospect isn't so hard.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
post #19 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

Marc, you aren't playing fair.

why's that?
post #20 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Ha! I been reading on Greek Culture, don't get me started!

Seriously, they would have needed a braintrust just to get all the prophetic references in Matthew to jibe with the other three gospels (and the OT), it would demand near-clairvoyance.

(also, I'm about to crack another Boddingtons, any advice or warnings?)

alas you humour me WRT Matthew, and as it is past midnight, I must elope to Nod. Lets talk about noble lies though. Yes or No?
post #21 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

why's that?

Well of course, you and ena are talking about a bible with very different paths to now. Yours was written by man in hebrew, greek, latin, etc, his was written by god in english (heh). Etc
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
post #22 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

Well of course, you and ena are talking about a bible with very different paths to now. Yours was written by man in hebrew, greek, latin, etc, his was written by god in english (heh). Etc

i cracked your +1 code Ena and myself agree on the same things. What stands between us is this concept of noble lies.
post #23 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

alas you humour me WRT Matthew, and as it is past midnight, I must elope to Nod. Lets talk about noble lies though. Yes or No?

...not yet, off to bed with you.

What about the Boddington's? Is this a crap UK ale?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #24 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

i cracked your +1 code

Actually, it's ena's +1 code. He used to be called aksoldotna, then ena, and now dmz. I just like his first name more than dmz...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
post #25 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

...not yet, off to bed with you.

What about the Boddington's? Is this a crap UK ale?

careful, you might arouse the interest of the wrong types with such language. Boddingtons I care not for.

Its all about Noble Lies. Everything can be resolved around justifying Noble lies.
post #26 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

Actually, it's ena's +1 code. He used to be called aksoldotna, then ena, and now dmz. I just like his first name more than dmz...

and i always thought dmz stood for dead mans zone. A ww1 reference. What next 'CLY'?
post #27 of 40
Not so much, airport code for Kenai, AK is ena (Soldotna is a town on Kenai)...

Eh, good night marc.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
post #28 of 40
Not only do I believe that Jesus was invented by the elites to fool the masses, I also believe that iTunes was written in RealBasic.
post #29 of 40
Heathen.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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My brain is hung like a HORSE!
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post #30 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Not only do I believe that Jesus was invented by the elites to fool the masses, I also believe that iTunes was written in RealBasic.

Indeed, one of those statements is pure shite.

I'd love to chat tonight, but Im so busy...
post #31 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Not only do I believe that Jesus was invented by the elites to fool the masses, I also believe that iTunes was written in RealBasic.

I wouldn't doubt either.
post #32 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Not only do I believe that Jesus was invented by the elites to fool the masses, I also believe that iTunes was written in RealBasic.

Why do you hate America?
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #33 of 40
One other thing I thought about last night, MarcUK -- that whole noble lie thing can only work in a materialistic framework; which is why it was a big part of the 20th century totalitarian regimes. It's not part of a Christian framework, though.

Since we are personalities there is no one crushing political formula, or bureaucratic algorithm that will order the disorder. We aren't just uncorrelated problems that need a catalyst, we're moral creatures that only work well together (under God) with a moral solution.

So yes, as in an atheistic panacea like the killing fields, or Stalin's purges, or a Great Leap Forward, but no, not for a Moral culture.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #34 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

One other thing I thought about last night, MarcUK -- that whole noble lie thing can only work in a materialistic framework; which is why it was a big part of the 20th century totalitarian regimes. It's not part of a Christian framework, though.

Since we are personalities there is no one crushing political formula, or bureaucratic algorithm that will order the disorder. We aren't just uncorrelated problems that need a catalyst, we're moral creatures that only work well together (under God) with a moral solution.

So yes, as in an atheistic panacea like the killing fields, or Stalin's purges, or a Great Leap Forward, but no, not for a Moral culture.

...you're just a bunch of chemicals reacting haphazardly on top of your neck, morals don't really exist, 'personality' is an accident or a complete illusion and you're an animal like every other animal on the planet only with some pretty entrenched ideas derived from your 'firmware'.
post #35 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

One other thing I thought about last night, MarcUK -- that whole noble lie thing can only work in a materialistic framework; which is why it was a big part of the 20th century totalitarian regimes. It's not part of a Christian framework, though.

Since we are personalities there is no one crushing political formula, or bureaucratic algorithm that will order the disorder. We aren't just uncorrelated problems that need a catalyst, we're moral creatures that only work well together (under God) with a moral solution.

So yes, as in an atheistic panacea like the killing fields, or Stalin's purges, or a Great Leap Forward, but no, not for a Moral culture.

pop a couple of boddingtons, i think I understood you better last night.
post #36 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah

...you're just a bunch of chemicals reacting haphazardly on top of your neck, morals don't really exist, 'personality' is an accident or a complete illusion and you're an animal like every other animal on the planet only with some pretty entrenched ideas derived from your 'firmware'.

Thank you, but can I get an upgrade?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #37 of 40
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Thank you, but can I get an upgrade?

you need to speak nicely to segovius
post #38 of 40
Thread Starter 
Let me try to construct on the fly the argument I was going to make with the original post.

Noble Lies. A necessary evil. There are stupid idiotic people in the world. Fact. There are people who cant function for themselves and need a noble lie to activate them to do something. They're not doing it for this life, but they're doing it for the promise of a better life when they're dead.

Plato realised this. On the surface, a noble lie - to mere average people if they discover it will make them angry, and disgusted with discovering the lie. They then have to make a choice. Accept that the things they believed were a lie and seek out new pastures, or deny there was ever a lie and continue to be subjected to it.

In Plato's world, society wouldn't function if everyone knew the truth. - There would be those who accepted the truth, but who had not become wise. A Stupid person knowing the truth is arguably more dangerous than a smart person who doesn't know.

Therefore a noble lie must be constructed, so that everyone is controlled for their own benefit and for society as a whole until they have become wise enough to handle the revealed truth in its plain unadulterated form, without becoming angry or destructive, or using the truth within the lie for selfish benefit.

A noble lie therefor, while a disgraceful concept, is actually the best way to stop society harming or destructing itself. Those who are smart and wise enough, will eventually go on to discover the lie, but by the time they have, they will have realised the reason why the lie needs to be maintained.

Therefore this lie, is still maintained by the wise people who have discovered its true nature. It is an act of compassion, protecting society from the people who would otherwise degenerate it of their own accord, and protecting society from people who knew the nature of the lie, but were not wise enough to realise that it was the only way for society to maintain itself.

Which is one way of looking at it through a certain filter.

But what happens when - Plato being wise, knew what society had to be told to keep it functioning. There would be by default, people who knew the nature of the lie and were wise. These were the people at the top - and within themselves they freely and openenly could discuss the lie, knowing that they were wise enough to understand the implications of the lie and its consequences. These were the truly free people. They maintained the lie, for the benefit of everyone.

There were people who suspected the lie, but were not wise enough to conduct themselves if the true nature of the lie, were disclosed to them, so the Guardians of the lie, maintained at all times that the lie was true - because these people could go either way - loose cannons.

There were people who never suspected the lie, and were happy to maintain themselves by being controlled by it. They would never be capable of handling the nature of the lie as it would make them angry and it was best that it was never disclosed to them.

And there were people who never suspeded the lie, and were willfully acting within its boudaries. Infact they positively wanted to be lied too.

Now the problem is, that you have a pyramid here that functions only when the people at the top are aware of the lie, why it is necessary, and why it must be maintained, and the essential part of being at the top of the pyramid, is that you can know the nature of the lie and still function as required with genuine compassion for the rest of the group. ie you cannot be corrupted by the revelation the lie discloses. Naturally, the people at the top are easily outnumbered by the lower classes, but they maintain their position by 1) Maintaining the lie and 2) eing repected by people lower in the pyramid to act on their best intentions with the wisdom they display.

I think eventually, this system is doomed to failure.

As society gets bigger and bigger, there are less and less people at the top of the pyramid to nurture society compared to the rabble at the bottom. Eventually, the voice of the rabble becomes strong, and will force its way into positions at the top, where they will learn the nature of the lie, but they wouldn't have the wisdom - so in effect they become corrupted by it, and see that they can use the lie to enslave and control the lower classes of society for personal gain, and not the benefit of society.

And this is what i believe we have in todays governments.
post #39 of 40
Thread Starter 
dmz, you've fell silent!
post #40 of 40
I don't know what else to say, we are all personalities, not some sort of jigsaw puzzle that just needs the right policy to make us all fit in a mechanical sort of way. There is a moral solution to us all working together, but since we live in a fallen world that is going to involve some pain and suffering, that can never be engineered away.

The American 'war on poverty' or 'war on drugs,' 'war on ter..., ...ehem... , Prohibition, all come to mind. There is only so much social engineering that is going to 'take' on a particular culture until you have to hire a secret police and start whisking people off to Lubyanka.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
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