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Despite inferiority, Zune likely to see modest success - analyst

post #1 of 42
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Although Microsoft Corp's forthcoming Zune digital media player is somewhat bulky and lacking appeal, its likely to see "some modest success" due to Microsoft's vast resources and the company's willingness to take a loss with each unit it sells, one Wall Street analyst says.

"Yesterday, Microsoft announced pricing for its Zune portable media player with 30 GB HDD storage at $250 and a ship date of November 14, 2006," American Technology Research analyst Shaw Wu wrote in a research note on Friday.Â*"As we mentioned recently, we believe Microsoft was caught off guard by Apple's aggressive $249 video Pod pricing and was forced to match Apple's pricing to stay competitive."Â*

Wu believes Microsoft inability to price Zune even lower demonstrates Apple's under-appreciated supply chain strength. With its current pricing, the analyst estimates Microsoft will suffer an approximate $50 loss with each sale of the player. This compares to Apple's industry-leading iPod profitability, which, according to his estimates, falls along the lines of 18 to 22 percent gross margin and 8 to 11 percent operating margin.

"To us, the key question is whether Zune priced in-line with a video Pod will take share with its bulkier form factor, same Windows software currently available from 15-20 vendors, and inferior battery life," Wu wrote. "Regardless, we believe Zune will likely see some modest success due to Microsoft's vast resources, but at the expense of its Windows "partners" (particularly ones that sell HDD-based players including Sony, Creative, iRiver, Samsung, Archos, and Toshiba)."

He said Apple retains key competitive advantages that include its strong brand, vertically integrated iPod+iTunes model, its proprietary clickwheel technology, and "unique and pleasant customer experience with its Apple stores."

Wu maintains a "Buy" rating and $91 price target on Apple shares and continues to recommend that investors buy on weakness.
post #2 of 42
Competition is good but I can see this player doing well. Microsoft has a good market position - however it does seem likely this will take consumers away from iPod competitors. The similar form factor will be attractive to some iPod fans but other than that there's no reason this player is better than any iPod competitor.
post #3 of 42
$50 loss on each player? Wow, that's pretty huge considering they likely won't make it back on sales of songs.

MS has a good market position for OS and software. How does that help them with an mp3 player?
post #4 of 42
Wait? Apple's pricing the iPod aggressively? I thought I just read last week that they were priced for profit and not for marketshare?

Please note, the above is what is known as sarcasm. Please use the Mac OS X dictionary to look that up if you are uncertain of its meaning. I am fine with the price of the iPod, of course less money would be better, but I certainly don't feel ripped off by what I paid (which was more than the current prices), nor does my wife or the dozens of other people I know with iPods.
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post #5 of 42
So wait... "losing money" = "success"?

Wow, the world of business is sure changing.
post #6 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormchild

So wait... "losing money" = "success"?

Wow, the world of business is sure changing.


Microsoft shareholders should hope that it is not too successful. If sales ever rival those of the ipod, you are talking about half a billion in losses per quarter.
post #7 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCentric

Microsoft shareholders should hope that it is not too successful. If sales ever rival those of the ipod, you are talking about half a billion in losses per quarter.

They lose money on every one they sell, but they hope to make up for that in volume.
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post #8 of 42
man Wu sounds so biased....
post #9 of 42
I bet that December 26th will see a big uptick in iPod sales due to parents of kids who were expecting an iPod, but instead ended up with a S**T brown Zune under the tree exchanging them for what the child really wanted.

A year or two ago near Christmastime, a mother came up to me and said that her daughter asked for an iPod and wanted to know if the "Dell iPod" was as good as the Apple one.

It would rock if on November 14th, Apple were able to reduce the price of the 30 Gb ipod further, sending MS scrambling.
post #10 of 42
This guy does make some good points though:

http://www.computerworld.com/action/...icleId=9003718

Apple would do well to add wi-fi sharing to its iPod, and make the iPod integrate well with the Wii and PS3.
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post #11 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody56292

man Wu sounds so biased....

Usually he sounds like a Mac Zealot!!! Maybe analysts can be agnostic?
post #12 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978

This guy does make some good points though

He makes a couple mildly OK points...but also has some really bonehead statements that kill any credibility he otherwise might have:

"But the Zune's screen is just as good -- and larger than the iPod's. More importantly, it can be turned sideways for a wide-screen movie experience, which is vastly superior to watching movies on an iPod."

Sorry guy, the Zune is no more widescreen than the iPod is. Exact same aspect ratio, just a tiny bit bigger.

And it doesn't help when an article relies so much on statements like "Apple is scared". Give me a break, like this bozo has any clue what's going on inside apple.
post #13 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider

Wu wrote. "Regardless, we believe Zune will likely see some modest success due to Microsoft's vast resources,

Wu was telling investors to get behind apple stocks causing a little rally, and now he's trying to lower the share price of aapl ?
must have some investor friends who missed out on relatively cheap stocks
post #14 of 42
ref: Computerworld. How can someone who supports the big guys sound like such a little guy (all bitter & angry with his Anti Apple-Zealot Zeal). I like this bit...

'Microsoft will make the movement of media between Windows, Soapbox and the Zune natural and seamless'

Show me one example where they have, since when have MS ever been able to get this sort of thing right? Why do so many MS Zealots think this is so easy? Of course one company has achieved this on Windows, with a product called iTunes.

Interesting that MS have finally clocked the whole 'bigger picture' thing, that maybe the experience includes several components and the do have a good XBox install-base for leverage. Maybe this will spur Apple to go global with iTS & get smarter with their TV Show marketing

McD
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post #15 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978

This guy does make some good points though:

http://www.computerworld.com/action/...icleId=9003718

Apple would do well to add wi-fi sharing to its iPod, and make the iPod integrate well with the Wii and PS3.

oh comeon they could give the 360 some integration too. They aren't competing directly with xbox, so it wouldn't matter if their devices played well with it. ( I would personally be very upset if new Ipods didn't work with my 360 )
post #16 of 42
If Wu is right, and MSFT is losing $50 on each Zune sold, they could be indulging in what economists call "price-dumping" -- i.e., the practice of charging a price less than cost in a market for such purposes as putting rival suppliers out of business.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping...cing_policy%29

Shouldn't one of the rival Windows MP3 player manufacturers be contacting the US Commerce Department and/or the International Trade Commission?

post #17 of 42
I wouldn't completely discredit MS if they want the market bad enough. While it is a different segment, they took the PDA market away from Palm because MS continued to offer more features and Palm got complacent. Once the Palms started lacking in features and an putting out an updated OS, Pocket PC's buried them.

While Wifi may seem like a hard feature to implement successfully at this point, that and the additional radio (that Apple sells as an add-on), hardly makes the Zune 'inferior', it offers features that current iPods lack. If Apple doesn't keep pace with prices/features, they could end up with MS nipping at their heels, not even great marketing can keep something going forever.
post #18 of 42
I dont get it, how many people do you really think are going to care about that WiFi feature and FM radio sucks, if FM radio actually had radiostations that played something other than prepackaged rotations maybe it would be of interest. Most radiostations are owned by clearchannel and play the same thing day in day out. This is why the mp3(iPod) players sell so well.


I doubt it will sell well, especially at the same pricepoint as the iPod.
post #19 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness

I wouldn't completely discredit MS if they want the market bad enough. While it is a different segment, they took the PDA market away from Palm because MS continued to offer more features and Palm got complacent. Once the Palms started lacking in features and an putting out an updated OS, Pocket PC's buried them.

While Wifi may seem like a hard feature to implement successfully at this point, that and the additional radio (that Apple sells as an add-on), hardly makes the Zune 'inferior', it offers features that current iPods lack. If Apple doesn't keep pace with prices/features, they could end up with MS nipping at their heels, not even great marketing can keep something going forever.

What sold the iPod was the interface/ease of use. And the whole design and ergonomics. Folks would rather pay for that VS adding a slew of extra features they would never use just to put more checkboxes on the side of the package.
post #20 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness

I wouldn't completely discredit MS if they want the market bad enough. While it is a different segment, they took the PDA market away from Palm because MS continued to offer more features and Palm got complacent. Once the Palms started lacking in features and an putting out an updated OS, Pocket PC's buried them.

While Wifi may seem like a hard feature to implement successfully at this point, that and the additional radio (that Apple sells as an add-on), hardly makes the Zune 'inferior', it offers features that current iPods lack. If Apple doesn't keep pace with prices/features, they could end up with MS nipping at their heels, not even great marketing can keep something going forever.

If "features" make an MP3 player competitive with the iPod, we would have seen erosion of iPod market share already. Instead, we see relentless growth, even as Samsung, iRiver, Creative, SanDisk et al pile on "features" till the cows come home.

WiFi, as implemented by MS, is not even a compelling "feature", at that. It's usefulness is entirely dependent on robust sales of the Zune, or else you have nobody to share with. But, robust sales of the Zune depend on perceiving WiFi as desirable, even after early adopters go wandering around looking for the one in a thousand they can link to. Classic chicken and egg, and almost impossible to overcome without some other compelling reason to buy at the outset.

Plus, big hits on battery life and sharing enabled only on "promotional" songs make the WiFi gimmick pretty much a non-starter, in my book. Of course, the MS idea of "competing" has always been "add features", so it's not at all surprising this is the tack they'd take.

The PDA market is a poor comparison, as the "PDA ecosystem" is limited to the software that lets you synchronize data from your computer, which isn't exactly a barrier to entry, and seamlessness across desktop and PDA apps, which allowed MS to once again leverage their OS monopoly. Palm had nothing like the iPod/iTS lock-in to protect their early lead.

The Zune has to create an entire new world of: lots of Zunes for sharing to be even remotely useful, all new song purchases with an all new DRM (no playing all your "Plays For Sure" stuff), adapters for cars and stereos, cars and stereos with Zune compatibility built in, amplified speaker docks, cases, sports monitors, lanyards, arm bands, marketing tie ins, media store library depth, podcasts, etc., etc., to even begin to get traction. No game makers to buy to goose sales, ala the Xbox.

And as I have said elsewhere, I don't see any evidence that MS is particularly good at consumer system integration. The Xbox was supposed to be MS's back door into the living room, remember? A computer in its own right, with internet connectivity and a DVD player? Hasn't exactly merged with the audio and video systems, has it? Or how about Media Center? Sure, they can point to sales figures, but that's just because a lot of PC vendors license it as a sales incentive. How many people have made a Media Center PC the center of their media?

And now Zune is supposed to take its place in this "framework"? And I don't think anybody would argue that Xbox/Media Center/Zune represents any kind of methodical strategy for locking up the living room.

Apple really has the upper hand here, not just on the appeal of the hardware but the systematic approach they've taken to laying the groundwork for genuine digital media ubiquity in the home, in their OS, in their apps and in their devices.
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post #21 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

Plus, big hits on battery life and sharing enabled only on "promotional" songs make the WiFi gimmick pretty much a non-starter, in my book. Of course, the MS idea of "competing" has always been "add features", so it's not at all surprising this is the tack they'd take.

This is where Apple differs - it generally innovates and finds a different way of doing things. Maybe Microsoft should should try Thinking Different against Apple. Thinking the same only creates a poorer imitation of a very good product.
post #22 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

If "features" make an MP3 player competitive with the iPod, we would have seen erosion of iPod market share already. Instead, we see relentless growth, even as Samsung, iRiver, Creative, SanDisk et al pile on "features" till the cows come home.

WiFi, as implemented by MS, is not even a compelling "feature", at that. It's usefulness is entirely dependent on robust sales of the Zune, or else you have nobody to share with. But, robust sales of the Zune depend on perceiving WiFi as desirable, even after early adopters go wandering around looking for the one in a thousand they can link to. Classic chicken and egg, and almost impossible to overcome without some other compelling reason to buy at the outset.

Plus, big hits on battery life and sharing enabled only on "promotional" songs make the WiFi gimmick pretty much a non-starter, in my book. Of course, the MS idea of "competing" has always been "add features", so it's not at all surprising this is the tack they'd take.

The PDA market is a poor comparison, as the "PDA ecosystem" is limited to the software that lets you synchronize data from your computer, which isn't exactly a barrier to entry, and seamlessness across desktop and PDA apps, which allowed MS to once again leverage their OS monopoly. Palm had nothing like the iPod/iTS lock-in to protect their early lead.

The Zune has to create an entire new world of: lots of Zunes for sharing to be even remotely useful, all new song purchases with an all new DRM (no playing all your "Plays For Sure" stuff), adapters for cars and stereos, cars and stereos with Zune compatibility built in, amplified speaker docks, cases, sports monitors, lanyards, arm bands, marketing tie ins, media store library depth, podcasts, etc., etc., to even begin to get traction. No game makers to buy to goose sales, ala the Xbox.

And as I have said elsewhere, I don't see any evidence that MS is particularly good at consumer system integration. The Xbox was supposed to be MS's back door into the living room, remember? A computer in its own right, with internet connectivity and a DVD player? Hasn't exactly merged with the audio and video systems, has it? Or how about Media Center? Sure, they can point to sales figures, but that's just because a lot of PC vendors license it as a sales incentive. How many people have made a Media Center PC the center of their media?

And now Zune is supposed to take its place in this "framework"? And I don't think anybody would argue that Xbox/Media Center/Zune represents any kind of methodical strategy for locking up the living room.

Apple really has the upper hand here, not just on the appeal of the hardware but the systematic approach they've taken to laying the groundwork for genuine digital media ubiquity in the home, in their OS, in their apps and in their devices.

I see where Apple has done well with iTunes/iPod integration, and the iPod's UI; that's why I bought a 5g ipod, but my point is, there is still room for improvement. Apple can't just rest on their laurels, that's why I brought up Palm - now they are making Windows Moble phones, as well as POS phones. Every version of iTunes gets bigger and more bloated, while MS has made improvements with WMP 11.

The other WMA DAP's makers couldn't market themselves, Creative - most PC users use Soundblaster cards, but I've never seen a commercial for the Vison:M. Sony has screwed up with Sonicstage and ATRAC. Apple - I have no use for AAC, because no other DAP uses it, and it's just as bad as WMA and I refuse to be tied to a format that uses DRM. Most of the iPod accessories are a waste of money IMO, but if there is a market for it, I don't see why manufacturers could offer an swappable iPod/Zune dock module.

Also, depending on how well the Zune does, MS could leverage their experience with Windows Mobile, and I don't see what Apple has to counter the x360/Media Center at all; most users still use Windows and the Mac Mini is terribly underpowered to match most SFF PC's, and I can't see myself playing an iTunes movie when DVD's are nearly as cheap and better quality.
post #23 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness

I have no use for AAC, because no other DAP uses it, and it's just as bad as WMA and I refuse to be tied to a format that uses DRM. Most of the iPod accessories are a waste of money IMO, but if there is a market for it, I don't see why manufacturers could offer an swappable iPod/Zune dock module.

I agree that Apple can not rest and stop improving both iTunes and iPod. I also agree that Windows Media Player 11 is a very good product - Apple has already copied a few things from it. I however, refute your comment about AAC. WMA is a closed format - only used by Windows Media Player and not supported by other media players. AAC is open-source and therefore can be used by anyone; in fact Sony support AAC in their Sony Ericsson Walkman phones.
post #24 of 42
Quote:
I have no use for AAC, because no other DAP uses it, and it's just as bad as WMA and I refuse to be tied to a format that uses DRM.

AAC does not imply DRM. You can purchase a CD in a store and rip it to AAC and there is no DRM on it.
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post #25 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram

If Wu is right, and MSFT is losing $50 on each Zune sold, they could be indulging in what economists call "price-dumping" -- i.e., the practice of charging a price less than cost in a market for such purposes as putting rival suppliers out of business.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping...cing_policy%29

Shouldn't one of the rival Windows MP3 player manufacturers be contacting the US Commerce Department and/or the International Trade Commission?


Price dumping happens all of the time. Wal-mart uses it by allowing new stores operate at losses with support from the corporate office until competitors are run out of town, THEN the store raises prices to create a profit.

To stop this "free market" strategy, we need a real Justice Department, again.
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post #26 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness

I see where Apple has done well with iTunes/iPod integration, and the iPod's UI; that's why I bought a 5g ipod, but my point is, there is still room for improvement. Apple can't just rest on their laurels, that's why I brought up Palm - now they are making Windows Moble phones, as well as POS phones. Every version of iTunes gets bigger and more bloated, while MS has made improvements with WMP 11.

The other WMA DAP's makers couldn't market themselves, Creative - most PC users use Soundblaster cards, but I've never seen a commercial for the Vison:M. Sony has screwed up with Sonicstage and ATRAC. Apple - I have no use for AAC, because no other DAP uses it, and it's just as bad as WMA and I refuse to be tied to a format that uses DRM. Most of the iPod accessories are a waste of money IMO, but if there is a market for it, I don't see why manufacturers could offer an swappable iPod/Zune dock module.

Also, depending on how well the Zune does, MS could leverage their experience with Windows Mobile, and I don't see what Apple has to counter the x360/Media Center at all; most users still use Windows and the Mac Mini is terribly underpowered to match most SFF PC's, and I can't see myself playing an iTunes movie when DVD's are nearly as cheap and better quality.

Certainly Apple can't rest on their laurels, nor do they appear to be. On the other hand, they need not rush to add every feature that gets included in another MP3 player to remain competitive.

Earlier on in the iPod's march to domination many people would claim that if Apple didn't hurry up and add a recorder or a radio or a user replaceable battery to the iPod they would see their market lead slip away. Obviously, that didn't happen, but there's still a mentality that "new features" are always going to drive people to some other product.

Apple explicitly rejects that model in favor of simplicity. Guess what? The market has voted, Apple is right. People would prefer an elegant device that does a few things really well to a button studded swiss army knife.

MS "leveraging Windows Mobile" actually goes in exactly the wrong direction, IMO. If MS starts larding the thing with apps and extra menus and icons it just becomes a pain in the ass. The PDA thing is completely a different deal-- getting a small portable device to integrate with your major productivity apps is a win for certain vertically integrated businesses. It is not a consumer win, and, in fact, consumers started abandoning PDAs as a stand alone device not long after MS managed to take over the market (coincidence, probably ). Well, that and the fact that most people were using PDAs just to keep contacts and a calendar, and it turns out you can do that really simply as a sub-set of another portable device's features. So while MS was busy making PDAs more complicated with more "features", the market was moving elsewhere.

Apple doesn't have to "counter" the Xbox/Media Center because the vast majority of users are playing games on their Xbox and using their Media Center PC as a standard issue computer. MS hasn't made integration across devices plus easy to use software compelling enough to get people using them that way. I can't see where Zune brings anything to that table.
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post #27 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by lundy

AAC does not imply DRM. You can purchase a CD in a store and rip it to AAC and there is no DRM on it.

Well you can do the same with WMA, but neither are the standard that a format like MP3's are, even Sony devices now support MP3's, as well as ATRAC. It's just that ATRAC ties me to Sony, AAC ties me to Apple, WMA ties to Microsoft, even though all are probably better, more modern formats that MP3. MP3 just allows me to move between players if I choose, without losing quality recoding formats or worrying about licensing rights with purchased music.

DRM sucks, becuase it limits what you can do with music that you've actually paid for.
post #28 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness

Well you can do the same with WMA, but neither are the standard that a format like MP3's are, even Sony devices now support MP3's, as well as ATRAC. It's just that ATRAC ties me to Sony, AAC ties me to Apple, WMA ties to Microsoft, even though all are probably better, more modern formats that MP3. MP3 just allows me to move between players if I choose, without losing quality recoding formats or worrying about licensing rights with purchased music.

DRM sucks, becuase it limits what you can do with music that you've actually paid for.

You know what the other name for AAC is?

MP4. For real.
post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat

You know what the other name for AAC is?

MP4. For real.

Yup. Its amazing how many folks I've dropped that particular bomb on, right after they've gotten through screaming how great MP3 is and how they hate that 'propreitary Apple format', which ironically isn't proprietary at all- it was made by the MPEG group, and it really is the natural successor to MP3.

If I was Apple, I would just refer to it as MP4 going forward, since that is what it really is. 8)
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post #30 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness

Well you can do the same with WMA, but neither are the standard that a format like MP3's are, even Sony devices now support MP3's, as well as ATRAC. It's just that ATRAC ties me to Sony, AAC ties me to Apple, WMA ties to Microsoft, even though all are probably better, more modern formats that MP3. MP3 just allows me to move between players if I choose, without losing quality recoding formats or worrying about licensing rights with purchased music.

DRM sucks, becuase it limits what you can do with music that you've actually paid for.

I agree that DRM is bad - I also do not like the quality downloaded so I still buy CDs. ATRAC and WMA are closed formats - owned and licensed by Sony and Microsoft. AAC is open-sourced, owned by the community and can be used by anyone. I do agree that not many MP3 players support M4A but it's still available to those manufacturers if they want it. It's not Apple restricting it's use.

Incidentally, M4A was seen as the next standard of MP3.
post #31 of 42
I should note that, despite several claiming this here, AAC itself is not open-source. It is an open standard as part of MPEG-4, but several patents surround it, and licensing has to be done through Dolby's VIA licensing company.

There is, however, an open-source implementation: FAAD/FAAC.
post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

I should note that, despite several claiming this here, AAC itself is not open-source. It is an open standard as part of MPEG-4, but several patents surround it, and licensing has to be done through Dolby's VIA licensing company.

There is, however, an open-source implementation: FAAD/FAAC.

It is still not owned by Apple as guinness was suggesting.
post #33 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCrazy

It is still not owned by Apple as guinness was suggesting.

Yeah, I know. I just wanted to clear up that the format itself is not "open-source". Ogg Vorbis is an example of an entirely open-source format, but its adoption has been, shall we say, less than satisfactory. It appears Microsoft has actually been trying to make companies not support it.
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The license prohibited makers of portable devices compatible with Windows Media Player from using non-Microsoft audio encoding formats. [..] In a possibly related decision, iriver recently dropped support for Ogg Vorbis from their latest H10 portable music player in order to market it with PlaysForSure certification.
post #34 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody56292

man Wu sounds so biased....

specially when he notes that zune will cost 250 and the ipod sells for 249. big difference, eh. a big freakin' 99 cent difference.
post #35 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by hugodrax

I dont get it, how many people do you really think are going to care about that WiFi feature and FM radio sucks, if FM radio actually had radiostations that played something other than prepackaged rotations maybe it would be of interest. Most radiostations are owned by clearchannel and play the same thing day in day out. This is why the mp3(iPod) players sell so well.


I doubt it will sell well, especially at the same pricepoint as the iPod.

I like fm tuners for the gym.... Specially when I want to listen to news.
Alot better listening to what is happening on TV than getting podcasts of yesterday's news.
post #36 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker

Yeah, I know. I just wanted to clear up that the format itself is not "open-source". Ogg Vorbis is an example of an entirely open-source format, but its adoption has been, shall we say, less than satisfactory. It appears Microsoft has actually been trying to make companies not support it.

No that was a good point you made - I was under the impression AAC was actually open-source so I am grateful for your correction!
post #37 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram

If Wu is right, and MSFT is losing $50 on each Zune sold, they could be indulging in what economists call "price-dumping" -- i.e., the practice of charging a price less than cost in a market for such purposes as putting rival suppliers out of business.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping...cing_policy%29

If you read that link, it says dumping is defined as selling below cost in a foreign market. Doesn't say it's illegal to sell below cost in your own country, which is what MS is doing. It's an international trade issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness

I have no use for AAC, because no other DAP uses it, and it's just as bad as WMA and I refuse to be tied to a format that uses DRM.

Not only is AAC not tied to DRM, AAC files that aren't protected can even be played by the Zune!
post #38 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

Apple explicitly rejects that model in favor of simplicity. Guess what? The market has voted, Apple is right. People would prefer an elegant device that does a few things really well to a button studded swiss army knife.

Any chance we can get Apple to make cell phones?
post #39 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidzLA

Any chance we can get Apple to make cell phones?

It will happen sometime in the next 3 years. Frankly I'm running out of patience, this iPhone better be worth the wait, cause it's taking 5 friggen years to get out the door.
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post #40 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGregor

Price dumping happens all of the time. Wal-mart uses it by allowing new stores operate at losses with support from the corporate office until competitors are run out of town, THEN the store raises prices to create a profit.

To stop this "free market" strategy, we need a real Justice Department, again.

1) I agree that we need a stronger Justice Dept.

2) Re. Wal-Mart: Can you point to any proof at all for such a sweeping assertion?

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