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The Republican Party is in flames and it's raining gasoline. - Page 5

post #161 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

Well, let's see, let me get my conversion charts....

So, that would be four or five Warners?


I *believe* 2 Warners are almost equal to one Friedman. I really just wish that the whole system would go metric. It's sort of like the old English system before 1972.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #162 of 302
Thread Starter 
Absolutely. I realize the original metrics were sort of ad hoc, but now that it is clearly a system that will be with us for a while it's important to bring some standards to bear.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #163 of 302
And it burns, burns, BURNS!

The ring of fire!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/...out/index.html
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #164 of 302
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #165 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline

I just don't know if all of this bad news is really sinking that far into the public consciousness. If anyone had really been paying attention back in 2004 there's no way Bush would have won then.

I couldn't agree more.

All the big important issues now were there two years ago. Foley may save the election for the D's, becuase it looked like spetemeber terrorizing of the public by the R's was working again. Part of me just doesn't beleive the D's will pul it off, because they failed so miserably in the last election. REally, if they gain the house or the Senate, then the have the R's to thank.
post #166 of 302
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carson O'Genic

I couldn't agree more.

All the big important issues now were there two years ago. Foley may save the election for the D's, becuase it looked like spetemeber terrorizing of the public by the R's was working again. Part of me just doesn't beleive the D's will pul it off, because they failed so miserably in the last election. REally, if they gain the house or the Senate, then the have the R's to thank.

I don't really believe the whole "just when things were starting to come around, Foley ruins everything" deal.

I think it's just part of the default media narrative that the right is always dealing from a position of strength and any setback is just temporary, while the querulous dems run around with "no plan".

They've been telling this one so long they can't let it go. So Hastert "comes out swinging" and utterly scurrilous charges that the whole thing was some kind of liberal dirty trick get reported without rebuttal.

But the real story is the actual mood of the country, which has soured on Iraq, soured on Bush, soured on "all terror all the time" and look to be souring on the Republicans in general.

Yes, the electorate "should" have already been sour in 04, but that's sort of a pointless assertion. They weren't, or weren't sufficiently. They are now.

The thing about the right wing smear and fear machine is that it works right up till the point that it doesn't. And this looks to be that point.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #167 of 302
addabox is right! Things weren't just coming around.

This couldn't have happened at the worst possible time for the republicans because the attitude toward Bush and the rest of the republican government was very down.

This just helps pull the other side of the scale all the way down to the table top.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #168 of 302
They wouldn't be writing stuff like this if most weren't in agreement.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/....tm/index.html

The republican's free ride is over.

And considering what damamge they've done it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch.

Also as I've said if the democrats take back control of government some real investigating can begin. Then watch what happens!

They went too far and now they will pay for it by being out of favour for a long time to come.

Just like during the Clinton era when a sex scandal comes up at the right time it can be damning and fix the course of everything.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #169 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

They wouldn't be writing stuff like this if most weren't in agreement.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/....tm/index.html

I love the first line of that article:

"Every revolution begins with the power of an idea and ends when the only idea left is power."
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #170 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline

I love the first line of that article:

"Every revolution begins with the power of an idea and ends when the only idea left is power."

Me to!

It's a very well written / insightful article.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #171 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Me to!

It's a very well written / insightful article.

I love the last paragraph.

"The people who want to see this thing blow up," Hastert told the Chicago Tribune, "are ABC News and a lot of Democratic operatives, people funded by George Soros," the liberal financier who has become a bogeyman of the right. Hastert went on to suggest, without producing any proof, that the revelation was the work of Bill Clinton's operatives.

You know Bill Clinton had to have something to do with this.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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post #172 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo

I love the last paragraph.

"The people who want to see this thing blow up," Hastert told the Chicago Tribune, "are ABC News and a lot of Democratic operatives, people funded by George Soros," the liberal financier who has become a bogeyman of the right. Hastert went on to suggest, without producing any proof, that the revelation was the work of Bill Clinton's operatives.

You know Bill Clinton had to have something to do with this.

If you want a real eyeful click on the link at the bottom for the entire cover story. It's free and quite a read! It really sums up where this all started and why it's ended up here.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #173 of 302
Thread Starter 
Wow. When Time Magazine puts the ass of an elephant on their cover the conventional wisdom has made up its mind.

When they contemptuously brush aside the "Clinton did it" swift boat push-back as not even worthy of analysis, you know we're not in Kansas anymore.

Two years ago the major media would have been all over the "dirty trick" angle. Front page stories "pouring over" the "evidence" of Democratic complicity. New "revelations" burbling up from the basement of the right wing fever-swamps that quickly found their way into the "debate".

Of course (and this is intrinsic to how this particular dance works), no real evidence would have been forthcoming, but somehow article after article would end up musing about how "this scandal has bipartisan fallout" and "it is Congress itself that is tainted". Then the tried and true feed-back of "what the people think" and "what we tell you you think".

Which is why I keep, well, I guess the word is gloating over how absolutely freaked out the right wing pundocracy must be to have lost control of the story.

It's all they every had. They didn't have a particularly compelling "message", beyond exploiting the worst impulses in American life with a handful of wedge issues. They sure as shit don't have a record of accomplishment. They have no "plan" beyond some vague notion of a half-assed theocratic utopia arising out of killing the government and replacing it with a ludicrous McDonald's version of spontaneous American main-street goodness that sweeps aside ambiguity and complexity and solves all worries with sunny optimism, hard work and institutionalized bigotry.

But man did they have a handle on controlling the story. Who needs accomplishments or a plan when all that stand against you are subhuman and vile? When the very lives of the voters hinge on routing out the enemy within?

Torture was supposed to be the story, right now. Republican operatives and talking heads endlessly repeating the message: Democrats consistently vote to deny the President the tools to keep you safe. They're too weak, too fastidious, to frightened to understand that tough times call for tough measures. That real American men don't fret about "international law" when it comes time to start putting the bamboo shoots under the fingernails. Remember , we're only talking about swarthy, bearded, blazing eyed monsters here, and when the hot pokers go in it's only to find out where the bomb under your bed is. The Democrats just don't get it.

I don't think it would have worked, much, to tell you the truth. Not because I believe, any more, in some kind of intrinsic decency in the American electorate that would have, finally, rejected the logic that makes America a torture state. But because, from a purely pragmatic level, too many things have gone too far wrong to be dismissed by sloganeering.

We may, in our hearts, have become a brutal and vindictive people, but we remain pragmatists, albeit shockingly ill-informed pragmatists.

And when most Americans can see that the ruling party is fucking up, at a level everyone can understand, at the level of breaking things, it's not even really about ideology any more.

We all know what it looks like to do a "good job". We all know what it looks like when incompetents fail miserably. Fear and demagoguery can cloud that for a while, but not forever.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #174 of 302
Yes, yes. Bill Clinton, though. In the Oval Office. With a cigar tube.
post #175 of 302
The lead picture in that article is good too.



Contrast with
post #176 of 302
Shorter Addabox: You're doing a heckuva job, Foley.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #177 of 302
You people are to much the only thing missing in the first republican photo is the chimp chump Bush at the end of the line. Addobox nice post only problem though there are people who are Republicans first before they are Americans. I have a few in my family who simply equate Republicans are good christians and Democrats not. Who cares if you killed 130,000 muslims for a dreamed up war as long as you paste the christian label on yourself. Bush has done this.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #178 of 302
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora

You people are to much the only thing missing in the first republican photo is the chimp chump Bush at the end of the line. Addobox nice post only problem though there are people who are Republicans first before they are Americans. I have a few in my family who simply equate Republicans are good christians and Democrats not. Who cares if you killed 130,000 muslims for a dreamed up war as long as you paste the christian label on yourself. Bush has done this.

Absolutely and I estimate they are at about 30-35% of the electorate. Bush could drink the blood of Christian babies live on network television and they would vote Republican.

Rove, by his own admission, has crafted a strategy of energizing the base. It doesn't matter if you win by 10 votes, if you win. So Republican election strategy has been an extremely orchestrated process of driving that 30-35% to the polls coupled with discouraging everybody else. Since most Americans don't vote anyway, that can be more than enough. Of course, it creates a polarized and angry landscape, but that's not Rove's problem. His job is to win elections by whatever means necessary.

That's why American electoral politics have looked so gnarly the last 6 years-- the ruling party has explicitly embraced a "fuck you" agenda that means to rile up the base while deeply depressing everyone else. It's also why talk of "bipartisanship" with these assholes is so completely beside the point.

What's happening now is that "everybody else" is getting riled up (as in more likely to vote) and the base is getting bummed. A lot of them aren't exactly "Republicans" in the sense of being "party loyalists", it's just that the Republicans are the only game in town when it comes to pandering to their fears and prejudices. That's always been the risky part of the Rovian strategy-- using reactionary demagoguery to drive your base to the voting booth isn't the same as building a stable party ideology that seems to speak to the voter's world view. Fear and hatred are pretty fungible values, when it's all said and done.

What do Republicans stand for, at this point? Lower taxes. You bet. Small government? Absolutely not. Keeping government out of your private life? Absolutely not. Fiscal responsibility? Absolutely not. A pragmatic, orderly view of America's place in the world based on "strength" coupled to a healthy suspicion of foreign entanglements? Absolutely not. Moral values? Until recently, that was still in play, but it's been steadily eroding as Republicans become ever more associated with power, and the Foley thing looks like a knock-out punch on that count.

No, the modern Republican party stands for a ruthless disregard for any constraints in achieving its ends.

Now, as it happens that vibe actually worked very well in a post 9/11 America. If they were willing to savage their domestic opponents, just imagine what they were willing to do to kill all the bad men!

But, at some point, "we're bad asses" needs a dose of "who can get things done". Just roaming the earth blowing things up and snarling doesn't really cut it, once it becomes obvious that it doesn't work.

So yeah, some number of that 30-35% will certainly vote Republican and do it with extreme prejudice, believing they are striking a blow against appeaser fag commie losers.

But unless a great many of them do, along with a significant number of "hold my nose and vote for lower taxes" types, and a lot the people who have started to wonder what the hell is going on stay home, it's not enough. The "red America" meme was always a fiction, based on narrow margins driven by the base.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #179 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

Absolutely and I estimate they are at about 30-35% of the electorate. Bush could drink the blood of Christian babies live on network television and they would vote Republican.

Rove, by his own admission, has crafted a strategy of energizing the base. It doesn't matter if you win by 10 votes, if you win. So Republican election strategy has been an extremely orchestrated process of driving that 30-35% to the polls coupled with discouraging everybody else. Since most Americans don't vote anyway, that can be more than enough. Of course, it creates a polarized and angry landscape, but that's not Rove's problem. His job is to win elections by whatever means necessary.

That's why American electoral politics have looked so gnarly the last 6 years-- the ruling party has explicitly embraced a "fuck you" agenda that means to rile up the base while deeply depressing everyone else. It's also why talk of "bipartisanship" with these assholes is so completely beside the point.

What's happening now is that "everybody else" is getting riled up (as in more likely to vote) and the base is getting bummed. A lot of them aren't exactly "Republicans" in the sense of being "party loyalists", it's just that the Republicans are the only game in town when it comes to pandering to their fears and prejudices. That's always been the risky part of the Rovian strategy-- using reactionary demagoguery to drive your base to the voting booth isn't the same as building a stable party ideology that seems to speak to the voter's world view. Fear and hatred are pretty fungible values, when it's all said and done.

What do Republicans stand for, at this point? Lower taxes. You bet. Small government? Absolutely not. Keeping government out of your private life? Absolutely not. Fiscal responsibility? Absolutely not. A pragmatic, orderly view of America's place in the world based on "strength" coupled to a healthy suspicion of foreign entanglements? Absolutely not. Moral values? Until recently, that was still in play, but it's been steadily eroding as Republicans become ever more associated with power, and the Foley thing looks like a knock-out punch on that count.

No, the modern Republican party stands for a ruthless disregard for any constraints in achieving its ends.

Now, as it happens that vibe actually worked very well in a post 9/11 America. If they were willing to savage their domestic opponents, just imagine what they were willing to do to kill all the bad men!

But, at some point, "we're bad asses" needs a dose of "who can get things done". Just roaming the earth blowing things up and snarling doesn't really cut it, once it becomes obvious that it doesn't work.

So yeah, some number of that 30-35% will certainly vote Republican and do it with extreme prejudice, believing they are striking a blow against appeaser fag commie losers.

But unless a great many of them do, along with a significant number of "hold my nose and vote for lower taxes" types, and a lot the people who have started to wonder what the hell is going on stay home, it's not enough. The "red America" meme was always a fiction, based on narrow margins driven by the base.



You obviously don't live in a red state, I do, Mississippi, for 23 years now, in fact.

Prior to that I lived in a blue state, Vermont, for 30 years.

Down here, not a day goes by that I don't think "there's no place like home, there's no place like home, ..." But now all my friends I know live here in Mississippi, so whatever, I'll probably stay till I die!

It's a culture thing, it's a religious thing, it's an Abe and LBJ thing, it's a closet racism and segregation thing. A lot of water has gone under that bridge, is going under that bridge, will go under that bridge. IMHO, progressive thinking IS the only real way to move forward socially.

But throughout my voting record, voting in 100% of ALL elections, starting in 1972, I'd say I've voted Democratic 95+% of the time (100% at state and national levels).

And consider this, less than 50% of the voting public vote, it's usually in the mid 40's. Apathy, whatever. And if your 35% figure is correct, I'll assume so for this point, and 75% of them turn out and vote Republican, versus 65% but only 40% of them turn out and vote Democratic, do the math, guess who wins, all the time, Republicans!

It ain't over, till it's over! Don't count your chickens before their hatched!

Bottom line, we all need to vote, I don't like a situation where ~25% of the voting public dictates how 100% of us are supposed to behave! But even if we were to have 100% voter turnout, I'm still uncomfortable with ~50% of the voting public dictating how 100% of us are supposed to behave! The Bush "mandate" BS, is just that, BS! We all need to be thinking of what 95+% of the general population is willing to accept, not what 25% of the general population is willing to accept!

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #180 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent



You obviously don't live in a red state, I do, Mississippi, for 23 years now, in fact.

Prior to that I lived in a blue state, Vermont, for 30 years.

Down here, not a day goes by that I don't think "there's no place like home, there's no place like home, ..." But now all my friends I know live here in Mississippi, so whatever, I'll probably stay till I die!

It's a culture thing, it's a religious thing, it's an Abe and LBJ thing, it's a closet racism and segregation thing. A lot of water has gone under that bridge, is going under that bridge, will go under that bridge. IMHO, progressive thinking IS the only real way to move forward socially.

But throughout my voting record, voting in 100% of ALL elections, starting in 1972, I'd say I've voted Democratic 95+% of the time (100% at state and national levels).

And consider this, less than 50% of the voting public vote, it's usually in the mid 40's. Apathy, whatever. And if your 35% figure is correct, I'll assume so for this point, and 75% of them turn out and vote Republican, versus 65% but only 40% of them turn out and vote Democratic, do the math, guess who wins, all the time, Republicans!

It ain't over, till it's over! Don't count your chickens before their hatched!

Bottom line, we all need to vote, I don't like a situation where ~25% of the voting public dictates how 100% of us are supposed to behave! But even if we were to have 100% voter turnout, I'm still uncomfortable with ~50% of the voting public dictating how 100% of us are supposed to behave! The Bush "mandate" BS, is just that, BS! We all need to be thinking of what 95+% of the general population is willing to accept, not what 25% of the general population is willing to accept!


Yes. I've always said that we all need to get out and vote!

If we had during the last 2 presidental elections we probably wouldn't have the Bush problem now.

Above and beyond all of that however things are really different now. The republican's goose is really cooked this time ( in gasoline ).
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #181 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Yes. I've always said that we all need to get out and vote!

If we had during the last 2 presidental elections we probably wouldn't have the Bush problem now.

Above and beyond all of that however things are really different now. The republican's goose is really cooked this time ( in gasoline ).



I HOPE so! I just can't stand ANOTHER 2 years of "cut and spend" that's the meme of the neocon(vict)s! I'd prefer a 2 year start of a neodem "cut and save!"

Somehow the Republicans singing that Metallica song Fuel comes to mind, don't know why though.

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #182 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Yes. I've always said that we all need to get out and vote!

If we had during the last 2 presidental elections we probably wouldn't have the Bush problem now.

I always thought that was a myth...

With the electoral college, I know my vote doesn't count.
post #183 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^

I always thought that was a myth...

With the electoral college, I know my vote doesn't count.

That comes in to strong play when the election is really close. Look at the first one. Gore won the popular vote. That's no myth. However not many voted.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #184 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^

I always thought that was a myth...

With the electoral college, I know my vote doesn't count.



Please don't say that!

Approximately 50% of the VAP voted in 2004 (actually the number was ~55% VAP, ~60% VEP).

Also remember that the EC is essentially a winner take all process, so for a closely contested national election, approximately half the votes cast don't count at the state level (blue versus red states), and half the votes don't count at the national level (blue versus red country). Add that the EC is slightly weighted towards rural states (minimum of 3 electoral votes each), so where does that leave the US as a so called democracy?

In 2004 Bush would have still won the EC with just 12% of VAP in the 31 states he carried!

But in a typical (close) election only ~14% of VAP is neccessary to carry the EC! In a clean sweep (40+ states), you only need ~10% of VAP (if that) because the loser doesn't get a lot of votes.

Bottom line?

VOTE!

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #185 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

Actually the trend lines show that over the last few months the economy has been replaced by Iraq as the big area of concern. Iraq is a complete boat anchor for Republican candidates, and now is dragging down Republican numbers for the other top concern-- terrorism.

And even "the economy" isn't a winner-- most polls I've seen show a majority trust the Dems to handle the economy over the Republicans. Lower gas prices and rising stock market aren't bad news for Republicans, but they don't offset the effects things like stagnant middle class wages and rising health care costs.


Let's assume you are right, and let's also assume that the current trend keeps up until the elections actually happen. What do you think will happen?
I think the disappointment with the current administration (remember Bush-administration is not=congress) will only fuel general frustration regarding politics and lead to abstinence in elections, and I'm not sure that the abstinence will only be among those who would have voted for the republicans.

So in the end I think the problems will lead to a lower turnout, but it's not guaranteed that democrats will profit from it.

But what is still making me even more nervous than low turnout are these election-computers without a paper-trail! Aren't these open to a lot of manipulation?

In Netherland a group of computer-geeks actually bought an electronic voting-machine, took it apart and successfully installed and executed another program on it, namely a chess-program, eventhough its creator said that it was impossible, but even more grave they were able to install an election-fraud-programm that could deliver election-results they wished for, and they found a lot more leaks and problems with these machines, that are already in use in Netherland without a paper-trail. Here is a PDF-article detailing all this:
http://www.wijvertrouwenstemcomputer...91/Es3b-en.pdf


Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #186 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

Let's assume you are right, and let's also assume that the current trend keeps up until the elections actually happen. What do you think will happen?
I think the disappointment with the current administration (remember Bush-administration is not=congress) will only fuel general frustration regarding politics and lead to abstinence in elections, and I'm not sure that the abstinence will only be among those who would have voted for the republicans.

So in the end I think the problems will lead to a lower turnout, but it's not guaranteed that democrats will profit from it.

But what is still making me even more nervous than low turnout are these election-computers without a paper-trail! Aren't these open to a lot of manipulation?

In Netherland a group of computer-geeks actually bought an electronic voting-machine, took it apart and successfully installed and executed another program on it, namely a chess-program, eventhough its creator said that it was impossible, but even more grave they were able to install an election-fraud-programm that could deliver election-results they wished for, and they found a lot more leaks and problems with these machines, that are already in use in Netherland without a paper-trail. Here is a PDF-article detailing all this:
http://www.wijvertrouwenstemcomputer...91/Es3b-en.pdf


Nightcrawler

I think the democrats suffer from low voter turn out. Not the other way around.

I also don't think there will be as much apathy this time. People in america are tired of this administration/government and it's ways. By all means everybody needs to get out and vote!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #187 of 302
Thread Starter 
This is starting to seem slightly surreal. It remains to be seen if the Bush admin can use the Korean nuke test to flog up some fear and loathing, but here's the latest USToday/Gallup:



Another poll that I don't have a link to at the moment show that 87% think Bush isn't being honest about the situation in Iraq.

I don't think I've ever seen 87% agree about anything.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #188 of 302
You can only lie so long before the people start taking notice. I just hope we still have a Constitution before his term is up. He's working like Mad using terrorism as an excuse to dismantle the BIll of Rights, the Constitution and the Geneva Convention.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #189 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

This is starting to seem slightly surreal. It remains to be seen if the Bush admin can use the Korean nuke test to flog up some fear and loathing, but here's the latest USToday/Gallup:



Another poll that I don't have a link to at the moment show that 87% think Bush isn't being honest about the situation in Iraq.

I don't think I've ever seen 87% agree about anything.



I might believe this poll IF the 622 people were from districts in play (622 into 435 districts is less than 2/district!). I might also believe this poll if the swing wasn't among mainly undecided or independent VEP (if it's in fact VEP and not VAP), the hardcore on either side probably haven't changed their mind's one iota, remember we're still 4 weeks out, a lot can happen between now and then. I might believe this poll if those polled actually walk-the-walk (i. e. VOTE), instead of talk-the-talk (i. e. DON't vote), if these were EXIT polls. I might believe this poll if the underlying statistical assumptions were valid for such a small sample (and I don't think they are, +/- 5% for one sigma is probably more like +/- 10% for one sigma).

Bottom line, if you don't vote, don't complain, IMHO you don't even have a right to voice an opinion IF you don't vote. Don't believe the polls absolve you of the need to vote because you think it's GAME OVER, it's not, not until the evening of November 7th. Don't think because the polls suggest your side will win, that other's will take care of your business, they won't, because that is also their thinking.

VOTE! VOTE! VOTE!

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #190 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

This is starting to seem slightly surreal. It remains to be seen if the Bush admin can use the Korean nuke test to flog up some fear and loathing, but here's the latest USToday/Gallup:



Another poll that I don't have a link to at the moment show that 87% think Bush isn't being honest about the situation in Iraq.

I don't think I've ever seen 87% agree about anything.

All this crap has been festering for years and it was only a matter of time before it was ready to pop.

Yes everybody should vote but it doesn't look good for the republicans. Which after what they've done makes me smile.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #191 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

All this crap has been festering for years and it was only a matter of time before it was ready to pop.

Yes everybody should vote but it doesn't look good for the republicans. Which after what they've done makes me smile.



I thought the same in 2000, 2002, and 2004 and look what happened! They keep digging that hole deeper and deeper though, so who knows, maybe this time the hole is so deep that they will be in it for the next 20 years. That would make me very happy (provided the Dems don't "tax and spend," are reasonably tough on national DEFENSE, find alternative/renewable energy sources, etcetera (i. e. neolibs)).

The delta on that "poll" was 20 days, a lot happened in those 20 days, we have 28 days to go, a lot more WILL happen! Which way, who knows.

On November 7th, I'd like nothing more to say to the Reekpublican'ts (to be "fair and balanced" I suppose I'd need to refer to the other party as Democraps or Demoncan'ts) than, "You've been served!"
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #192 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent



I might believe this poll IF the 622 people were from districts in play (622 into 435 districts is less than 2/district!). I might also believe this poll if the swing wasn't among mainly undecided or independent VEP (if it's in fact VEP and not VAP), the hardcore on either side probably haven't changed their mind's one iota, remember we're still 4 weeks out, a lot can happen between now and then. I might believe this poll if those polled actually walk-the-walk (i. e. VOTE), instead of talk-the-talk (i. e. DON't vote), if these were EXIT polls. I might believe this poll if the underlying statistical assumptions were valid for such a small sample (and I don't think they are, +/- 5% for one sigma is probably more like +/- 10% for one sigma).

Bottom line, if you don't vote, don't complain, IMHO you don't even have a right to voice an opinion IF you don't vote. Don't believe the polls absolve you of the need to vote because you think it's GAME OVER, it's not, not until the evening of November 7th. Don't think because the polls suggest your side will win, that other's will take care of your business, they won't, because that is also their thinking.

VOTE! VOTE! VOTE!




http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/....ap/index.html

About voter turnout.


Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #193 of 302
Looks like we have another republican doing wrong, Bob Ney pleads guilty for lobbying scandal but doesnt want to leave Congress. Seems we have a rotten congress these days.
VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #194 of 302
Thread Starter 
From an editorial in the Johnson County Sun (Kansas):

Quote:
In the 56 years we have been publishing in Johnson County, this basically has been a Republican newspaper. In the old days, before the Republican civil war that fractured the party, we were traditional Republicans.

Quote:
This year, we will do something different. You will read why we are endorsing Kathleen Sebelius for governor and Mark Parkinson for lieutenant governor; Dennis Moore to be re-elected to the U.S. Congress; Paul Morrison for Kansas attorney general; and a slew of local Democratic state legislative candidates. These are not liberal Democrats. They are what fairly can be described as conservative Democrats, and we can prove that in our forthcoming endorsements.

Quote:
So, what in the world has happened?

The Republican Party has changed, and it has changed monumentally.

Quote:
To win a Republican primary, the candidate must move to the right.

What does to-the-right mean?

It means anti-public education, though claiming to support it.

It means weak support of our universities, while praising them.

It means anti-stem cell research.

It means ridiculing global warming.

It means gay bashing. Not so much gay marriage, but just bashing gays.

It means immigrant bashing. I'm talking about the viciousness.

It means putting religion in public schools. Not just prayer.

It means mocking evolution and claiming it is not science.

It means denigrating even abstinence-based sex education.

This is how rock-ribbed Republicans are talking about what's become of their party under Bush/Rove/Cheney all politics all the time. And once a bunch of Republicans break ranks and start talking this way, signaling that the era of fearing being branded "disloyal" for breathing a word of criticism has ended, the stampede begins.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #195 of 302
Adda, I understand the need to repeat your side's talking points, but only a real moron would actually believe that list.

Just off the top of my head, I can cite the facts that:

Public education, and universities in particularly were championed in our society by Christians.
There's only a problem on the right with embryonic stem cell research.
Even Pat Robertson has embraced the concept of global warming.

As for the 'bashing' arguments, that's just stupid.

Don't get me wrong, there can be good reasons for abandoning the Republicans, but throwing out wild accusations stereotyping such large numbers of people is simply insane. Surely more intelligent, reasoned points can be made against Bush & co. without resorting to such hyped-up nonsense.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #196 of 302
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777

Adda, I understand the need to repeat your side's talking points, but only a real moron would actually believe that list.

Just off the top of my head, I can cite the facts that:

• Public education, and universities in particularly were championed in our society by Christians.
• There's only a problem on the right with embryonic stem cell research.
• Even Pat Robertson has embraced the concept of global warming.

As for the 'bashing' arguments, that's just stupid.

Don't get me wrong, there can be good reasons for abandoning the Republicans, but throwing out wild accusations stereotyping such large numbers of people is simply insane. Surely more intelligent, reasoned points can be made against Bush & co. without resorting to such hyped-up nonsense.

Well, you'll need to take that up with the editors of the Johnson County Sun, as the list is theirs. I quoted it because I thought it was startling that a newspaper that self-declaredly has endorsed only a handful of Democratic candidates in a half a century would do a 180, so talk of wild accusations and stereotyping and insanity sort of misses the point.

It should be noted that the list is presented as defining qualities required of Republican candidates who expect to win primaries in Kansas.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #197 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777

Adda, I understand the need to repeat your side's talking points, but only a real moron would actually believe that list.

Just off the top of my head, I can cite the facts that:

• Public education, and universities in particularly were championed in our society by Christians.
• There's only a problem on the right with embryonic stem cell research.
• Even Pat Robertson has embraced the concept of global warming.

As for the 'bashing' arguments, that's just stupid.

Don't get me wrong, there can be good reasons for abandoning the Republicans, but throwing out wild accusations stereotyping such large numbers of people is simply insane. Surely more intelligent, reasoned points can be made against Bush & co. without resorting to such hyped-up nonsense.



Real morons = real progressives? Then I guess I'm a real moron!

Play the ad hominem card? Isn't THAT another stereotype? Politics as usual? Another stereotype?

And EVERY one of those talking points does hit a particular stereotype, the fundie stereotype (nee the regressive stereotype). The head-in-the-sand stereotype!

So when an old school conservative stereotype newspaper makes these type of comments, it appears that this stereotype is beginning to change it's mind, to guess what? Form a new stereotype!

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #198 of 302
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #199 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

Well, you'll need to take that up with the editors of the Johnson County Sun, as the list is theirs.

too funny. Good find Addabox.

By the way....it isn't over by a long shot. Public opinion change is one thing(wtf took people so long??), but one thing these Reps know how to do well is close elections. The Dems better make a spectacular showing on election day.
post #200 of 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent

So when an old school conservative stereotype newspaper makes these type of comments, it appears that this stereotype is beginning to change it's mind, to guess what? Form a new stereotype!

Stop stereotyping old stereotypes you stereotyping-pinko -commie- bastahd.
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