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Rove foresees GOP victory

post #1 of 176
Thread Starter 
White House political strategist Karl Rove yesterday confidently predicted that the Republican Party would hold the House and the Senate in next month's elections, dismissing fallout from the sex scandal involving former Rep. Mark Foley.

Early in this campaign cycle, Mr. Rove said the White House compiled a list of 80 Republican incumbents who might face difficulty. From there, top strategists made sure "that they all had a campaign plan, that they all knew that they had a risk, that they all went out there and raised a bundle of money, and that they had a plan that was measurable."
"As a result, that's done a lot to get people prepared," he said.
And, in some ways, the campaign is just beginning, Mr. Rove added.
"For most Americans, particularly the marginal voters who are going to determine the outcome of the election, it started a couple weeks ago," he said. "Between now and the election, we will spend $100 million in target House and Senate races in the next 21 days."


Now first of all I want it made clear that this has been my prediction all along. I'll appropriately gloat or eat crow when the time comes. (Including a nice gentlemanly bet with BRussell)

I'll state why I believe what I do. A good chunk of it is pure opinion and thus there isn't really a way to prove or disprove it. I just know certain instincts have served me very well over the years. Perhaps this thread will prevent a few of you from harming yourselves on the day after the election. You are given permission to believe me deluded. Just be ready to explain yourself if and when I end up right.

1) It's the economy stupid. Some people vote party. Some people vote single issue. A whole hell of a lot of people vote pocketbook and could really give a damn until something hits them there. The DOW is hitting new highs and is fattening up the nearly 50% of households that own stock. Housing has slowed enough that people probably won't use theirs as an ATM anymore, but haven't seen large declines in their value (yet, I'm predicting that for 2007.) Gas has come back down to reasonable levels and inflation is being controlled.

2) The media is liberal and has a herd mentality on top of that. The lack of reporting of good news might make someone bad mouth a policy or person, but I don't think it will drive someone to a different vote in the booth. I work in a blue field within a blue state. People make obligatory remarks about certain topics. I haven't seen teachers begging for extra-duty, carpooling or even complaining about any topic in a fashion that would drive them to vote enthusiastically or in any sort of larger than normal turnout.

3) Polling - Clearly phone polling is broken. I don't say this because I think they are pointing Republican or Democratic. I say this because the results from different pollsters within the same week on the same race are wildly different. There are a number of reasons for this. It seems many pollsters are running their polls for longer timeframes in order to get enough respondents. I see many more polls conducted over three or four days now than I remember in the past.

We've also seen the actual polls themselves become less reliable predictors during the last few elections. So much so that conspiracy theories (Diebold must die!) abound as to the cause of their error. I think this will be the election where their reliability, along with media bias proves they are outright broken.

As a sidenote, I always find it a bit humorous when reality is questioned, and the predictions are not.

I don't have a study I can point to that will declare phone polling broken. I've read accounts about phone polling and they usually attempt to declare that the weighing of polls with regard to youth are broken because of cell phone use and thus the polls are likely to be off. However I don't see cell phone use, and abandonment of landlines as a youth exclusive trend. A lot of self-employed folks I know use cell phones exclusively. Among my male friends there is not a single one who either has a land line or who would ever answer it if they do have one. (It's for the wives and teens and there is a humorous cell company commercial reflecting this sentiment out now)

Those are my thoughts, you are welcome to add your own.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #2 of 176
clearly if the Republicans retain the senate, then America is one very sick nation.
post #3 of 176
I also think that the repubs will keep both... but their margins of dominance will be much reduced...
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #4 of 176
I wonder if there will be a Diebold effect?
post #5 of 176
"The media is liberal..." Ahhhhahahahahahahah!!! Whew! I needed a good laugh.

Wages are down, bro! It "wages" stupid!
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post #6 of 176
Quote:
Rove foresees GOP victory

Haha, that's a shocker.

Nick, with all respect, you've predicted Republicans would win, and in 2002 and 2004, they did. So now you think your intuitions are accurate. It's like someone who always predicts heads, and when the first 2 coin tosses are heads, he thinks he has ESP.

The fact is, the polls have been extremely accurate. Like it or not, they nailed the 2004 election. See here for the final surveys and the projections. They were all pretty close together, and their average was right on.

In 2004 the final polls showed both candidates under 50%, with Bush up a small amount, and 5% or so undecided. It was maybe 48-46 in favor of Bush, on average. The theory that many Dems hung their hopes on was that undecideds would go for the challenger in much greater numbers than the incumbent, but instead they broke about even, ending up 50-48 Bush. There was never very good evidence for that theory anyway, and it was mostly just high hopes.

Going on evidence, and the (well-founded) assumption that the polls are accurate, rather than belief in one's intuitions or ESP or high hopes, the best prediction right now is that Dems will win the House by 10-20 seats, and maybe tie in the Senate. According to the Senate polls, Dems will take seats from Republicans in Montana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island. Unfortunately, even though the Democratic candidate is ahead in the polls in Tennessee, I'm skeptical that a black candidate can win there. Dems are up a small amount in Missouri and down a small amount in Virginia, so things could go either way in those two states too. On the other hand, it's also possible that Democrats lose a seat in New Jersey, So I think the fairest prediction is for a tie in the Senate: They're down by 5 right now, they have four probable Dem pickups, three more possible pick-ups, and one possible loss.

Rove is just trying to project confidence so as not to further demoralize Republicans.
post #7 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Rove is just trying to project confidence so as not to further demoralize Republicans.

Yup. I think the legend of Rove's brilliance/genius is way over hyped.

Republicans capitalized on 9/11. Plain and simple. Something Democrats were absolutely forbidden from doing.
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post #8 of 176
I have said it before and I will say it again. Despite all the whining by the left, the people are happy. The people have money in their pockets and gas in their tanks. Republicans will stay in power.
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post #9 of 176
as long as the death toll keeps rising, the dems win the house and possibly the senate.
post #10 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Haha, that's a shocker.

Nick, with all respect, you've predicted Republicans would win, and in 2002 and 2004, they did. So now you think your intuitions are accurate. It's like someone who always predicts heads, and when the first 2 coin tosses are heads, he thinks he has ESP.

First, I've been predicting a lot longer than 2002 buddy. I've not eluded to ESP and I think I tossed enough disclaimers out there to choke a horse about this being more than a gut check.

Quote:
The fact is, the polls have been extremely accurate. Like it or not, they nailed the 2004 election. See here for the final surveys and the projections. They were all pretty close together, and their average was right on.

First while a couple were on, I consider most of those to be very off. All of them gave the Democratic candidate more support than they earned. Since 2004 more of these polls have become even more heavily weighted towards Democrats.

Finally I'm not the one producing evaluations(PDF) about why my results were so off. I'm also not the one disbanding the network sponsored exit poll in 2000 and reassembling it into this current organization because the results were so bad.

Quote:
In 2004 the final polls showed both candidates under 50%, with Bush up a small amount, and 5% or so undecided. It was maybe 48-46 in favor of Bush, on average. The theory that many Dems hung their hopes on was that undecideds would go for the challenger in much greater numbers than the incumbent, but instead they broke about even, ending up 50-48 Bush. There was never very good evidence for that theory anyway, and it was mostly just high hopes.

So we think that the theories put forward in the last elections, that ended up just being "high hopes" aren't the same this time as well. I think it is more of the same. Taking the Senate for example assumes not just some losses but a sweep. I've even read stories including the Senate race with Kyl in there as vulnerable when he is up by an average of almost 10 points! I've been reading much of the same "high hopes" with Democratic turnout that somehow manages to turn the tide to a much stronger degree.

Quote:
Going on evidence, and the (well-founded) assumption that the polls are accurate, rather than belief in one's intuitions or ESP or high hopes, the best prediction right now is that Dems will win the House by 10-20 seats, and maybe tie in the Senate. According to the Senate polls, Dems will take seats from Republicans in Montana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island. Unfortunately, even though the Democratic candidate is ahead in the polls in Tennessee, I'm skeptical that a black candidate can win there. Dems are up a small amount in Missouri and down a small amount in Virginia, so things could go either way in those two states too. On the other hand, it's also possible that Democrats lose a seat in New Jersey, So I think the fairest prediction is for a tie in the Senate: They're down by 5 right now, they have four probable Dem pickups, three more possible pick-ups, and one possible loss.

Rove is just trying to project confidence so as not to further demoralize Republicans.

I may not have pointed to all the links that inform my "ESP" but they are out there. Think about the fun you can have claiming $100 for Kiva.org if I'm wrong.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #11 of 176
Local issues and economics matter more to the people than does the death toll. Few Americans are directly affected by the iraq war.
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post #12 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski

Local issues and economics matter more to the people than does the death toll. Few Americans are directly affected by the iraq war.

Except for those dying in vain.
post #13 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

First while a couple were on, I consider most of those to be very off. All of them gave the Democratic candidate more support than they earned. Since 2004 more of these polls have become even more heavily weighted towards Democrats.

Of the 22 final polls or projections on that link, 15 were for Bush by from 1 to 6 points, 5 were for Kerry by 1 or 2 points, and 2 were dead-even ties. It ended up being Bush by about 2 points. I think if you averaged them they nail it, and if you look at the range they're within a reasonable margin of error.

What do you mean "more heavily weighted toward Democrats?" Do you mean biased toward Democrats - and if so, how do you know that - or do you just mean that more people are saying they like Democrats now.

Quote:
Finally I'm not the one producing evaluations(PDF) about why my results were so off. I'm also not the one disbanding the network sponsored exit poll in 2000 and reassembling it into this current organization because the results were so bad.

Exit polls are very different. Exit polls just try to catch people as they're coming out of the voting booth, and ask them who they voted for.

And I firmly believe that the Florida exit polls actually were accurate - more people came out saying they voted for Gore because, as every study shows, more people cast votes for Gore, by thousands of voters. Enough of those votes could be thrown out so that Bush won - fairly or unfairly, I don't want to get into that. But I don't think that was the fault of the exit polls.


Quote:
So we think that the theories put forward in the last elections, that ended up just being "high hopes" aren't the same this time as well. I think it is more of the same. Taking the Senate for example assumes not just some losses but a sweep. I've even read stories including the Senate race with Kyl in there as vulnerable when he is up by an average of almost 10 points! I've been reading much of the same "high hopes" with Democratic turnout that somehow manages to turn the tide to a much stronger degree.

I may not have pointed to all the links that inform my "ESP" but they are out there. Think about the fun you can have claiming $100 for Kiva.org if I'm wrong.

Nick

The difference is that the polls show Democrats leading decisively right now, and they didn't show them clearly leading in 2004. They showed Bush leading, and he won. Democrats predicting Kerry would win went against the polls, or perhaps cherry-picked only the most favorable polls. Now you're doing something similar, it looks like to me.

And that Kiva bet - was it only $100?
post #14 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Placebo

Except for those dying in vain.



Won't matter in the big picture.
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post #15 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski

I have said it before and I will say it again. Despite all the whining by the left, the people are happy. The people have money in their pockets and gas in their tanks. Republicans will stay in power.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. "The people" exist outside of your local 20 mile, or 100 mile/300 mile radius.

Go, travel a llittle. See the world. Get some perspective.

Southside would be a perfect North Korean.

Or he is Karl Rove.

Or he is Karl Rove's secret love puppet.
post #16 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski

Won't matter in the big picture.

Jeez Moe, you've gone from "Iraq is a vital battle in the War on Terror, you terror loving dogs" to "nobody cares, so the clusterfuck isn't electorally significant".

So how is it that "the people", who according to you up until very recently were very clear on what a good idea invading Iraq was and how pretty soon it was going to be a shining beacon of democracy that would transform the Middle East and drain the swamp and send the badmen scrambling, and how it was the front line in the war on terror and we were fighting them there so we wouldn't have to fight them there, etc., etc., how is it that those same "people" all of a sudden don't care enough about how things are going to have it affect their vote? I mean, you'd figure that "the front line on the war on terror" being a hideous meat-grinding no-win shit fest would give the folks pause, wouldn't you?

You might consider the idea that a great many people have made a similar shift in their thinking as you, except for the "not caring" part. As in, "I used to think that Iraq was a vital battle in the War on Terror but now it appears to be a clusterfuck and Bush and the Republicans don't care. I care a great deal. Seems to me we've poured a lot of blood and treasure into this deal and we've got worse than nothing to show for it. And the president doesn't seem bothered by that, and seems to want to just keep pouring blood and money in until we run out of blood, or money, or both. Which is crazy and stupid and wrong, and maybe I better vote for some people who will puts the brakes on, since the Republican Congress doesn't seem to care anymore than the president".

You know, lines of thought such as that.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #17 of 176
Rove has been called Bush's brain and though he is a master liar, spinmaster,truth twister or whatever you call someone who's job is to lie to the american people I take anything that spews out of the mouth of this draft dodger with a wipe of dribble. Lets send this fat clown home and his corrupt party. Its a sad time to be an American when this guy has helped destroy any good will we might have had.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #18 of 176
What do you suppose the chances of a terrorist attack, or at least foiled terrorist plot right before the election?
post #19 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^

What do you suppose the chances of a terrorist attack, or at least foiled terrorist plot right before the election?

I would figure that it is almost certain that the Bush White House will announce a "major" foiled terror plot within the last two weeks before the election.

I know, I know, it would be so transparently........ full of shit. But one thing these last years have taught us is taught us is that being breathtakingly, overtly, proudly full of shit is a central part of the Rove way.

Of course, we're seeing the limits of that way. The longer you're in power, the better the chance that you'll have to actually, you know, do things, things that have significance beyond that next photo op. If the only standard you have for how to do things is how it will play politically, pretty good chance a lot of those things won't actually be very useful, or successful, or even fathomable, in the real world. People may even hold you responsible for outcomes, no matter how many snappy little phrases you generate.

So Rove sent the troops out this summer with their marching orders: talk about Iraq. Well, not Iraq, exactly, pretend Iraq. Political Iraq. Hammer the Dems for wanting to "cut and run" instead of "staying the course".

Remember that? "Cut and run"? Don't hear it too much now, do we? Actually, "stay the course' isn't exactly in the hit parade, except for Bush himself, who at this point appears to be in his own, horrible little world.

And how eagerly the lick-spittle sycophants took up the cry: cut and run! Cut and run! Cut and run! Uncle Karl says if we just keep repeating our new magic phrase we will once again be magically transported to power land!

Hey, wait, why is everybody looking at us that way? Don't you get it? Cut and run! Um..... flip flopper? Tax and spend? Blame America first? Costal elites? Homosexual agenda? Oh, wait, I know..... Clinton! Clinton Clinton Clinton Clinton Clinton!

Shit, we probably should have figured out some kind of, whatchamacallit, policy thing or something, to fall back on in case everybody went crazy.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #20 of 176
As always, Adda's right on the money.
post #21 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski

Local issues and economics matter more to the people than does the death toll. Few Americans are directly affected by the iraq war.


God! I almost choked on my breakfast with this one!

I forsee a big disapointment and a stiff drink for you and trumpy.

Oh sorry I forgot about your age.
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #22 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

God! I almost choked on my breakfast with this one!

I forsee a big disapointment and a stiff drink for you and trumpy.

Oh sorry I forgot about your age.

I don't know, he has a point. Races can be local. Right now I'd say it's a toss up. If the election were held today, I think the Republicans would lose the house and keep the Senate. However, two weeks ago they would have held both. So the question is what happens in the last two weeks. We'll see.

PS: Back to the age comment I see. Your bag of tricks is really getting long in the tooth.
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post #23 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001

Your bag of tricks is really getting long in the tooth.

A bag? With TEETH?
meh
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meh
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post #24 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox

I would figure that it is almost certain that the Bush White House will announce a "major" foiled terror plot within the last two weeks before the election.

They sorta already tried with the "dirty bomb" Black Sunday false alarm.
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post #25 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^

What do you suppose the chances of a terrorist attack, or at least foiled terrorist plot right before the election?

There are a lot of people talking on the blogs and alternative media sites about some kind of attack (terrorist or perhaps open warfare) during the lead up to the elections. One I heard (this was via word of mouth) was a major attack on a US naval ship, somewhere off the Iranian coast near the Straits of Hormuz. The ship involved could be aircraft carrier Eisenhower, USS Anzio, USS Ramage, or the USS Mason which are currently in the region. The attack would be blamed on Iran (either if it was they, or some other party, who did it). The attack would give the US the justification to retaliate in what would be viewed as defense, and the much vaunted part of the neoconservative agenda, to engage Iran, would be started on what appeared on the surface to be a more legitimate basis than an Iraq war style preemptive strike.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #26 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate

They sorta already tried with the "dirty bomb" Black Sunday false alarm.

Too far out from the election. There needs to be an entirely classified, unverifiable revelation of how Bush's broad discretionary powers, given to him by a Republican Congress, allowed him to stop a huge assault upon the Homeland.

Preferably, the information used to stop the badmen will have come form torturing someone who has been in a secret CIA prison without access to the legal system for the last four years.
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post #27 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo

There are a lot of people talking on the blogs and alternative media sites about some kind of attack (terrorist or perhaps open warfare) during the lead up to the elections. One I heard (this was via word of mouth) was a major attack on a US naval ship, somewhere off the Iranian coast near the Straits of Hormuz. The ship involved could be aircraft carrier Eisenhower, USS Anzio, USS Ramage, or the USS Mason which are currently in the region. The attack would be blamed on Iran (either if it was they, or some other party, who did it). The attack would give the US the justification to retaliate in what would be viewed as defense, and the much vaunted part of the neoconservative agenda, to engage Iran, would be started on what appeared on the surface to be a more legitimate basis than an Iraq war style preemptive strike.


I'm sure the left wing bloggers have the scoop.
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post #28 of 176
Because a Republican congressman leaked it!
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #29 of 176
It's no secret, and has been stated in various official reports, that the insurgents in Iraq WANT the GOP to stay in power because it helps motivate their troops and their cause.

Democrats will end the war. The terrorists and insurgents don't want the war to tend.

End of story.
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post #30 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski

I'm sure the left wing bloggers have the scoop.

It's the libertarian right who are more more bothered by the neocon(fidence) trickery. Most of the so-called left are, for the most part, weaseling out and giving tacit support to this bogus "war on terror" (aka mega corporate welfare scam via fearmongering). Hillary Clinton is a prime culprit in this appeasement of the traitors in our midst.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #31 of 176
I spend alot of time trying to get inside the brains of the people I meet in life to try to understand how they tick, but while it would be humourous to think that the GOP fanboys are just mental or sick, which they are, but it goes much deeper than that - its hard say to watch the 'terrorstorm' video, not that we really need it to highlight what Conservatives stand for - and then rationalize why people such as Trumpt and Moe and SDW would actually want to be cheerleaders for such horrible perversity.

Whats in it for you trumpt? Righting a wrong? Were you perhaps the sad ugly frightened fat kid that got bullied thoughout your childhood and the way to put this right is to embrace a doctrine of hate and suffering so that you can force other people to feel your pain, and having that control over peoples emotions give you feelings of power and significance?
post #32 of 176
I agree with Rove.

I have no faith in the American people.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #33 of 176
I have a lot more faith in the people then the Govt and that goes for every country on this planet.
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VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS! Its the only way we can clean up Congress.
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post #34 of 176
more electoral propaganda to stir up the emotions

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6070206.stm
post #35 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001

I don't know, he has a point. Races can be local. Right now I'd say it's a toss up. If the election were held today, I think the Republicans would lose the house and keep the Senate. However, two weeks ago they would have held both. So the question is what happens in the last two weeks. We'll see.

PS: Back to the age comment I see. Your bag of tricks is really getting long in the tooth.

He says he's 16 or 17 but with that guy who knows the truth is the point.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #36 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harald

A bag? With TEETH?


Grrrrrr!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #37 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski

I'm sure the left wing bloggers have the scoop.

Yes we do! However it doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that things are cyclic.

We're at the end of the republican cycle.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #38 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

God! I almost choked on my breakfast with this one!

I forsee a big disapointment and a stiff drink for you and trumpy.

Oh sorry I forgot about your age.

Sorry Jimmac. You'd better resign now. You discussed alcohol consumption with a minor and even used the innuendo about being stiff.

The FBI should be blowing through the door any second.

Oh crap... did I say blowing.... in a reply about a youth....

(ducks and covers)

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #39 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton

I've said it once and I'll say it again. "The people" exist outside of your local 20 mile, or 100 mile/300 mile radius.

Go, travel a llittle. See the world. Get some perspective.

Southside would be a perfect North Korean.

Or he is Karl Rove.

Or he is Karl Rove's secret love puppet.

Sorry Tonton, you have to resign from the forums as well. You associated a youth with the worlds "secret love puppet."

AI/PO leftists are just so much better at this than gay, self-loathing Republicans.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #40 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Sorry Jimmac. You'd better resign now. You discussed alcohol consumption with a minor and even used the innuendo about being stiff.

The FBI should be blowing through the door any second.

Oh crap... did I say blowing.... in a reply about a youth....

(ducks and covers)

Nick

But how can we be sure he's really a minor?

You can relax though I actually said " Stiff drink " which could be koolaid!

Damn! There I go again!

I wonder if he's too young to remember Jim Jones?

Just joking!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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