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Rove foresees GOP victory - Page 2

post #41 of 176
There are two problems with American politics:
  1. Repugnicans
  2. Dumocrats

Two "big tent" parties are no longer relevant in a era of division. Rove and his ilk have shown that the politics of division are stronger and more appealing to US than the politics of inclusion.

I think we need to move to a more parliamentary set-up of multiple parties (e.g. primary interest associations such as social conservatives, fiscal conservatives, social progressives, redistributionists, etc...) and form alliances where and when it makes sense in furthering their policy objectives.

Currently, people are forced into two narrow definitions of American politics, and then they fight over which group will control that narrow definition. Instead, let's start with the broader political groups and encourage narrow associations on specific policy initiatives that make sense.

In America we continue to hold onto a false sense of being the same when it is increasingly obvious that we are not and, furthermore, don't want to be the same as our neighbors.

We need parties that really represent our beliefs.
"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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post #42 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by donebylee

There are two problems with American politics:
  1. Repugnicans
  2. Dumocrats

Two "big tent" parties are no longer relevant in a era of division. Rove and his ilk have shown that the politics of division are stronger and more appealing to US than the politics of inclusion.

I think we need to move to a more parliamentary set-up of multiple parties (e.g. primary interest associations such as social conservatives, fiscal conservatives, social progressives, redistributionists, etc...) and form alliances where and when it makes sense in furthering their policy objectives.

Currently, people are forced into two narrow definitions of American politics, and then they fight over which group will control that narrow definition. Instead, let's start with the broader political groups and encourage narrow associations on specific policy initiatives that make sense.

In America we continue to hold onto a false sense of being the same when it is increasingly obvious that we are not and, furthermore, don't want to be the same as our neighbors.

We need parties that really represent our beliefs.

Yes but above and beyond all of that is the fact that we have Bush. The worst bar none. Because of that it's necessary to ignore the failings of the democrats this time and pick the lesser of evils. We must send a strong message that what the current government shaped by the republicans is clearly unacceptable. Between the democrats and the republicans it's no contest. The republicans are far worse and we've already seen what they can do.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #43 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Yes but above and beyond all of that is the fact that we have Bush. The worst bar none. Because of that it's necessary to ignore the failings of the democrats this time and pick the lesser of evils. We must send a strong message that what the current government shaped by the republicans is clearly unacceptable. Between the democrats and the republicans it's no contest. The republicans are far worse and we've already seen what they can do.

With all respect Jimmac, if not now when?

When your side is in power you will suddenly want to expand the political spectrum?

A couple of elections ago I voted for Ralph Nader because Al Gore was not my choice for president and George Bush was and is George Bush. My sister said I threw my vote away and elected Bush. I replied to her then and to you now:

"I voted for what I believe in...I believe in having more than the choices you would limit me to. I voted for a freedom that your way of thinking would deny to me. I voted

FOR something, which was refreshing.

And if we don't start voting for things we believe in, then this democracy is doomed."
"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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post #44 of 176
No donebylee...

Our democracy is doomed if the electorate votes blindly... In a two party system voting for a third party cannot be anything but throwing your vote away. You chose to ignore the fact that we operate in a two party system. That is your idiocy.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #45 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

No donebylee...

Our democracy is doomed if the electorate votes blindly... In a two party system voting for a third party cannot be anything but throwing your vote away. You chose to ignore the fact that we operate in a two party system. That is your idiocy.

If you are happy with a two party system, then by all means support.

I am not and I will not.

Calling me an idiot and my choices idiocy seems to say more about you than it does about me.
"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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post #46 of 176
A question, then, donebylee.

Do you believe that your vote for Nader did anything to further the cause of creating a viable 3rd party in the US political landscape?
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post #47 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by donebylee

If you are happy with a two party system, then by all means support.

I am not and I will not.

Calling me an idiot and my choices idiocy seems to say more about you than it does about me.

That is the political reality. I am incredibly sorry you don't understand that operating in ideality doesn't bring about the ideal. We have had a president who has sucked the very marrow of democracy because people like yourself ignored the political reality. Is it more important that you are at peace with yourself or that the world is closer to what you want? From what you have said, it is clear you are a self-serving fuck.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #48 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerLurker

A question, then, donebylee.

Do you believe that your vote for Nader did anything to further the cause of creating a viable 3rd party in the US political landscape?

In actuality, no it did not bring about a third party. That is obvious. But when people say that voting for a third party is throwing away a vote, and yet they agree with the idea of a third party, I have to ask why didn't they vote for a third party?

How does it start if no one starts it?

What has to happen for you to vote for what you believe in?

Does a third party have to win an election before you will vote for them?

How will they win if you don't vote for them?

So I vote for them when neither major party offers me someone or something to vote for.
"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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post #49 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

That is the political reality. I am incredibly sorry you don't understand that operating in ideality doesn't bring about the ideal. We have had a president who has sucked the very marrow of democracy because people like yourself ignored the political reality. Is it more important that you are at peace with yourself or that the world is closer to what you want? From what you have said, it is clear you are a self-serving fuck.

There are two more years of George Bush hardeeharhar.

There is nothing anyone can do about that. There are no provisions within the U.S. constitution for a recall.

Your anger is obvious. But you are blaming me for something I didn't do.

I did not elect Bush.

Blaming "people like [me]" does nothing to change what you are mad about.

But if it makes you feel better have at it.
"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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post #50 of 176
What makes me angry is the fact that you even have the motivation to deny your culpability in Bush's election. Suck it up, the green party fucked up.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #51 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

What makes me angry is the fact that you even have the motivation to deny your culpability in Bush's election. Suck it up, the green party fucked up.

What got George Bush elected was that more people voted for him than they did for anyone else. I am sorry you have a problem with that, but in a democracy you don't always get what you want.

If you want things to always go your way then you should start the hardeeharhar party and win all the elections and then you can do what you want--within the confines of the constitution of course.
"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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post #52 of 176
Bush was elected because he got more electoral votes than Gore.

Apparently, you really don't know how this democracy works...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #53 of 176
Yes, he got more electoral votes courtesy of Florida.

Yes, Gore won the popular vote, but as you point out that is not how it works, but it always seems to work just fine when your guy wins and the baddy loses.

Now this time the baddy won and all you want to is to blame someone else for it.

Fine.

Whatever.
"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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post #54 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by donebylee

With all respect Jimmac, if not now when?

When your side is in power you will suddenly want to expand the political spectrum?

A couple of elections ago I voted for Ralph Nader because Al Gore was not my choice for president and George Bush was and is George Bush. My sister said I threw my vote away and elected Bush. I replied to her then and to you now:

"I voted for what I believe in...I believe in having more than the choices you would limit me to. I voted for a freedom that your way of thinking would deny to me. I voted

FOR something, which was refreshing.

And if we don't start voting for things we believe in, then this democracy is doomed."

Do you really more than 8 years of this shit?

Enough is enough!

I'm voting for what I believe in if you get my meaning.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #55 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by donebylee

Yes, he got more electoral votes courtesy of Florida.

Yes, Gore won the popular vote, but as you point out that is not how it works, but it always seems to work just fine when your guy wins and the baddy loses.

Now this time the baddy won and all you want to is to blame someone else for it.

Fine.

Whatever.


That stuff only works that way when not many vote or when they vote for a 3rd party ( you know when your vote doesn't really count in the election at hand ).

That's why it was close. Essencially people like you handed Bush his victory.

Your sister was right.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #56 of 176
Well here's an analysis that agrees with trumptman. It says the Republicans will hold on to both houses of congress.

Their measure? Money. Huh? Yes, money. Because the Republicans have raised more money, they say that means they have more support, can run more ads, and will therefore win. The polls show the Democrat leading in the Minnesota Senate race by 10-15 points, but because the Republican has more money, they call it for the Republican.

This makes absolutely no sense, as Republicans always raise and spend more than Democrats, every election cycle for as long as I've been alive, and yet they have lost over and over again.

But there it is anyway.
post #57 of 176
Lots of $$$ mean you can smear your opponent or subject matter until the public thinks its gospel. Bush did the same thing with his Iraq war telling us millions of times WMDs,WMDs,WMDs so even today we have a lot of people who think Saddam not only had WMDs but also did 911.
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post #58 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Well here's an analysis that agrees with trumptman. It says the Republicans will hold on to both houses of congress.

Their measure? Money. Huh? Yes, money. Because the Republicans have raised more money, they say that means they have more support, can run more ads, and will therefore win. The polls show the Democrat leading in the Minnesota Senate race by 10-15 points, but because the Republican has more money, they call it for the Republican.

This makes absolutely no sense, as Republicans always raise and spend more than Democrats, every election cycle for as long as I've been alive, and yet they have lost over and over again.

But there it is anyway.

Haven't been there before but it does look like a conservative / bankers site. Wishful thinking maybe?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #59 of 176
3rd party candidates won't work until a third party has an honest chance to win an election. What keeps them from having a real chance? No one votes third party, which is perceived as throwing away their vote. Catch 22, methinks. I think a third party needs to be radically different than the R's and D's, running from the left on some issues and from the right on others, and different enough that its not just be R-lite or D-lite.
post #60 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Well here's an analysis that agrees with trumptman. It says the Republicans will hold on to both houses of congress.

Their measure? Money. Huh? Yes, money. Because the Republicans have raised more money, they say that means they have more support, can run more ads, and will therefore win. The polls show the Democrat leading in the Minnesota Senate race by 10-15 points, but because the Republican has more money, they call it for the Republican.

This makes absolutely no sense, as Republicans always raise and spend more than Democrats, every election cycle for as long as I've been alive, and yet they have lost over and over again.

But there it is anyway.

First and foremost, get your phrases right. It agrees with trumptman's conclusion, but does not claim the same reasoning.

The short version of what I have claimed is as follows:

There will be no intensified turnout of one side versus another due to claimed economic calamity or even economic disgruntlement.

The liberal media will have shown a bit of desire along with a herd mentality in reporting the same asperations as news repeatedly.

Phone polling will be proven to be broken by continually oversampling Democrats and by changing uses and become unpredictable enough after the election that the news networks will again be scratching their heads.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #61 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

asperations

Is that something somewhere between an aspersion and an aspiration?
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We were once so close to heaven
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post #62 of 176
Or some will more legitimately question electronic voting as a threat to democracy.
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #63 of 176
After the Foley scandal, this page had the Democrats winning both the house and senate, but now the Republicans have started to bounce back:

http://www.electionprojection.com/
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #64 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

There will be no intensified turnout of one side versus another due to claimed economic calamity or even economic disgruntlement.

I agree, man. I don't think the economy is going to be the poll-mover. I think Iraq & security are the bigger issues to more Americans. I think a lot of Americans are upset over how Iraq & collateral damage are turning out; and will vote anti-R. (but i was wrong about 04, i thought The People had enough back then)
post #65 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

The liberal media...

There you go again with that bullshit.
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post #66 of 176
Thread Starter 
Not to be rude Freak but this won't be about energizing the Democratic base more. There isn't a way to energize them more than they were during the 2004 election regarding those issues. The hope among all the punditry is that Republicans are now less energized and will stay home. They haven't actually run any polls asking Republicans if they are going to stay home. They infer it by... well by magic. As the Barron's piece notes, (whether I agree with it or not) the Republican donors haven't stayed home. Some polls have indicated that Republicans are not paying as close attention to the election as Democrats. But attention isn't intention to vote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline

Is that something somewhere between an aspersion and an aspiration?

Thanks for helping with spelling.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #67 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978

After the Foley scandal, this page had the Democrats winning both the house and senate, but now the Republicans have started to bounce back:

http://www.electionprojection.com/

Love the conservative t-shirts ad!


Liberal baiting merchandise?

Good luck on that bouncing back!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #68 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Not to be rude Freak but this won't be about energizing the Democratic base more. There isn't a way to energize them more than they were during the 2004 election regarding those issues. The hope among all the punditry is that Republicans are now less energized and will stay home. They haven't actually run any polls asking Republicans if they are going to stay home. They infer it by... well by magic. As the Barron's piece notes, (whether I agree with it or not) the Republican donors haven't stayed home. Some polls have indicated that Republicans are not paying as close attention to the election as Democrats. But attention isn't intention to vote.

Well, the base and the far far left are probably as energized as we can get them. But my thought, based on wild speculation and tea leaves, is that more moderates and right-leaners are anti-Iraq than at the last election (i of course, don't mean anti-iraqi or somesuch, but opposed to the current admin's trend with the war). There have been reports about people moving away from R's on the war. I saw on fark that even the President is opposed to this tired old "stay the course" routine. Baker's trip to the whitehouse is seen by some as the administration's tacit acceptance that the plan has failed.
post #69 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by donebylee

In actuality, no it did not bring about a third party. That is obvious. But when people say that voting for a third party is throwing away a vote, and yet they agree with the idea of a third party, I have to ask why didn't they vote for a third party?

How does it start if no one starts it?

What has to happen for you to vote for what you believe in?

Does a third party have to win an election before you will vote for them?

How will they win if you don't vote for them?

So I vote for them when neither major party offers me someone or something to vote for.

I think discussing third party voting deserves a thread of its own... so I'll start a new thread and reply to this there.
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post #70 of 176
Thread Starter 
Morris sees base returning and voting.

Dick Morris now is calling this a toss-up. Democrats better start circling the wagons.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #71 of 176
Dick Morris and Karl Rove, huh?
post #72 of 176
Thread Starter 
and me of course... remember that I've called this election that way as well. I want my ESP powers to be confirmed when the election results come in.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #73 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

Morris sees base returning and voting.

Dick Morris now is calling this a toss-up. Democrats better start circling the wagons.

Nick

I'd be reaching for that stiff drink if I were you.
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post #74 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate

It's no secret, and has been stated in various official reports, that the insurgents in Iraq WANT the GOP to stay in power because it helps motivate their troops and their cause.

Democrats will end the war. The terrorists and insurgents don't want the war to tend.

End of story.

OK, that's dumb. And unsupported.
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post #75 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

Do you really more than 8 years of this shit?

Enough is enough!

I'm voting for what I believe in if you get my meaning.

What exactly is "this shit"?

A booming economy?

The stock market at all time highs?

No terror attacks since 9/11?

A border fence?

The deficit shrinking?

Lower taxes for the middle class?



Yes, things are AWFUL.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #76 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora

Lots of $$$ mean you can smear your opponent or subject matter until the public thinks its gospel. Bush did the same thing with his Iraq war telling us millions of times WMDs,WMDs,WMDs so even today we have a lot of people who think Saddam not only had WMDs but also did 911.

Yes, it's not like the Dems try to....gasp...spend money to influence opinion! The GALL!
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #77 of 176
Well, the increasingly obvious manipulation, the erosion of civil liberties, the corruption, the fact that George Bush is a FUCKING INARTICULATE KNOBCHEESE AND AN INTERNATIONAL LAUGHING STOCK, DESTROYING YOUR NATION'S CREDIBILITY AND DIGNITY might have some sway with the American electorate.

You know, maybe it's filtering through.
post #78 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

and me of course... remember that I've called this election that way as well. I want my ESP powers to be confirmed when the election results come in.

Nick

Dick Morris, Karl Rove, and trumptman! Please Nick, remove all sharp objects and shoelaces from your home in early November.
post #79 of 176
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac

I'd be reaching for that stiff drink if I were you.

I do everytime you post Jimmac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah

Well, the increasingly obvious manipulation, the erosion of civil liberties, the corruption, the fact that George Bush is a FUCKING INARTICULATE KNOBCHEESE AND AN INTERNATIONAL LAUGHING STOCK, DESTROYING YOUR NATION'S CREDIBILITY AND DIGNITY might have some sway with the American electorate.

You know, maybe it's filtering through.

I think it is filtering. Perhaps you should stop watching the Sci-Fi channel and mistaking it for CNN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell

Dick Morris, Karl Rove, and trumptman! Please Nick, remove all sharp objects and shoelaces from your home in early November.

I think you should remove them from YOUR home. I'll be using my ESP powers to manipulate them and you never know what might happen. Even as we speak my mind powers are making the leftist elements on this board more and more unstable. Just look at what I've done to Fellowship and Hassan's posting ability. Soon you'll all be foaming so bad at the mouth, you won't even remember to vote! You'll be too busy screaming at images of Bush on CNN for 24 hours a day while forgetting to shower or even leave to use the bathroom.

Run BRussell, Run!

Bwahahahaha...

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #80 of 176
Look - up in the sky!

It's a bird.... no, it's a plane.... no, it's ASSHOLIO, the neocon superhero!
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