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post #41 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

It's only sub by one dollar. That's semantics.

By sub, one means $899, $799, etc.

No, semantics would be saying $999 isn't really sub-$1000. Obviously, it is. \

.
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post #42 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins

No, semantics would be saying $999 isn't really sub-$1000. Obviously, it is. \

.

Again, you miss the point.
post #43 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

Again, you miss the point.

Tsk. One of us certainly is. \

Answer me this: Is or is not 999 < 1000. I'll give you a hint: Yes, it is.

Next, look up the definition of the prefix 'sub-'. It is the following:

Main Entry: sub-
Function: prefix
1 : under : beneath : below


$999 is BELOW $1000. It is also UNDER $1000. Hence, yes, a $999 computer is SUB-$1000. It's not even arguable, its that inconvenient thing known as a fact.

Get it? Got it? Good. 8)

.
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post #44 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins

Tsk. One of us certainly is. \

Answer me this: Is or is not 999 < 1000. I'll give you a hint: Yes, it is.

Next, look up the definition of the prefix 'sub-'. It is the following:

Main Entry: sub-
Function: prefix
1 : under : beneath : below


$999 is BELOW $1000. It is also UNDER $1000. Hence, yes, a $999 computer is SUB-$1000. It's not even arguable, its that inconvenient thing known as a fact.

Get it? Got it? Good. 8)

.

This is funny. But I count by 500s, so there are only two numbers lower than 1000 (500 and 0) - 999 is not sub-1000 because it does not exist in my frame of reference. I think that he has a similar system - where 999 and 1000 are the same number, and he counts by 100s - 0, 99/100, 199/200, etc, so the first number that exists below 1000 is 899/900.

Nobody said that we had to use integers or real numbers as our main system. 8)
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post #45 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978

This is funny. But I count by 500s, so there are only two numbers lower than 1000 (500 and 0) - 999 is not sub-1000 because it does not exist in frame of reference.



Let's all count by millions then. Now there's no numbers relevant save 0. Yay!

I'm not annoyed, I just wish someone would give me some of what everyone else around here is smoking.

Not trying to be mean, I just feel left out.

.
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post #46 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins

Tsk. One of us certainly is. \

Answer me this: Is or is not 999 < 1000. I'll give you a hint: Yes, it is.

Next, look up the definition of the prefix 'sub-'. It is the following:

Main Entry: sub-
Function: prefix
1 : under : beneath : below


$999 is BELOW $1000. It is also UNDER $1000. Hence, yes, a $999 computer is SUB-$1000. It's not even arguable, its that inconvenient thing known as a fact.

Get it? Got it? Good. 8)

.

You are playing petty, silly games here. You know very well what we mean by "under $1,000".

If you don't understand that, then please leave us alone.
post #47 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978

This is funny. But I count by 500s, so there are only two numbers lower than 1000 (500 and 0) - 999 is not sub-1000 because it does not exist in my frame of reference. I think that he has a similar system - where 999 and 1000 are the same number, and he counts by 100s - 0, 99/100, 199/200, etc, so the first number that exists below 1000 is 899/900.

Nobody said that we had to use integers or real numbers as our main system. 8)

I'm assuming that was a joke.
post #48 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign

Do keep up.

Apple's hardware sales would also be history. Guess where they make most of their profits.

iPods, it's iPods.

If you include Macs + iPods they outgun Dell's 9.5m(ish) global figure with over 10m units & are making far more money (especially if Lenovo's $50m profit from $3.5bn revenues for, Q2 I think, are anything to go by).

McD
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post #49 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

You are playing petty, silly games here. You know very well what we mean by "under $1,000".

If you don't understand that, then please leave us alone.

No, I'm simply stating what the facts are.

If you were honest for a moment, you would say, "Okay, okay, yes, technically $999 IS sub-$1000, but the way I MYSELF have always used it is...".

Don't get snarly on me just because you can't come out and say it. Is it really that hard? Yeesh. \

.
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post #50 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakingsfn

IMO, this is key because I worked for Gateway in the late 90's/early 2000 and they did grow too quickly, as a result, the product fell far below quality standards and the company itself got too big and ended up having to restructure itself (ultimately costing me my job).

Sorry about the job but it's not quite the same thing.

Gateway's meteoric rise was attributed to it's capitalization on the shift in supply chain i.e. manufacturer-distributor-reatiler-consumer to manufacturer-consumer. The growth would have caught anyone by surprise, R&D & corporate structure were left well behind but the market likes steady & solid as opposed to overnight success.

Apple have been growing for a while, R&D/Innovation is well covered & their structure is mature. Manufacturing quality is their challenge.
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post #51 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins

No, I'm simply stating what the facts are.

If you were honest for a moment, you would say, "Okay, okay, yes, technically $999 IS sub-$1000, but the way I MYSELF have always used it is...".

Don't get snarly on me just because you can't come out and say it. Is it really that hard? Yeesh. \

.

Did you just out-Mel Mel?
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post #52 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDave

Did you just out-Mel Mel?

You mean he's ALWAYS like this? Wow.

I don't know whether to hate him or give him a high-five. 8)


.
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post #53 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater

As long as Apple continues to keep their hardware intergrated along with the software they will never see real market share.

Users have been asking for an upgradable mid range tower for years, Jobs will never allow one to go into production. Its pathetic.

No, it's the future. The 6.1% show a change in mindset which isn't the end for MS but pretty close. Consumers being empowered to make choices delivered by technicians is so last-century - people are finally realising Apple's design-driven approach is more useful & the March of the Macs is on.

(of course, I stand to eat quite a few of these words) - McD
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post #54 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins

You mean he's ALWAYS like this? Wow.

I don't know whether to hate him or give him a high-five. 8)


.

Possibly both
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post #55 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins

No, I'm simply stating what the facts are.

If you were honest for a moment, you would say, "Okay, okay, yes, technically $999 IS sub-$1000, but the way I MYSELF have always used it is...".

Don't get snarly on me just because you can't come out and say it. Is it really that hard? Yeesh. \

.

That's not it though. We're not talking about first grade arithmetic here. We're talking marketing.

Of course 999 is not 1,000. That's not even worth saying.

But no one would think anything other than a $999 computer is in their mind, a $1,000 computer. They take off the dollar to try to stop you from thinking that, but it is thought nevertheless.

People will even think that a $949 computer as a $1,000 model. It's just too close.

Before people stop thinking $1,000 in their minds, it has to drop to $899. Then they think: "Oh, $900 bucks".

You are talking arithmetic, but people round up to the next highest whole number, which in the case of 999, is 1,000.

That's why it's semantics. It's also psychology. The price has to be low enough so that people can't pull it up to the next higher category.

So they will look at two different machines, one costing $949, and the other $1,000 as being the same, but not if the lower one is $899.
post #56 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDave

Did you just out-Mel Mel?

Sigh!
post #57 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins

You mean he's ALWAYS like this? Wow.

I don't know whether to hate him or give him a high-five. 8)


.

Well, I don't hate anyone here, even if they feel that way.

I just don't like getting caught up in issues that are irrelevent.

Mostly, people move to the meat, and leave the skin behind.
post #58 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins

$999 is BELOW $1000. It is also UNDER $1000. Hence, yes, a $999 computer is SUB-$1000. It's not even arguable, its that inconvenient thing known as a fact.

Get it? Got it? Good.

Wait... you mean to say that it is not semantics to argue a single digit difference? Indeed, you are right, but the fact of the matter is that $999 vs. $1000 is not a real argument. Without a doubt, you are splitting hairs when you say that there are differences, since the differences only arise in the base-ten numeral system and because of language. That is the very definition of semantics, since the word (and George) is all that separates the two numbers. What's next, you'll be telling us that the idea of a table is more real than the table itself? For a consumer who is not wooed by the obvious marketing ploy of pricing computers at ever-so-slightly less than a big, scary number. No sensible consumer would be fooled by that, except on a subconscious level.

Again, you're absolutely correct in your logic, but you are missing the point altogether, by not "thinking different" and considering the pragmatic reality of missing one dollar. If I lose .1% ofa price it is not really a difference. However, if I get $1 off a $5 bagel with lox, that is a big difference (20%), since the scale is so much smaller. It really saves me money, whereas one dollar off a $1000 computer really achieves nothing but a name change. I might buy 200 bagels in a year, but not 200 computers.

And how dare you accuse anyone of not understanding facts, when you are so tied to the belief that a rational understanding of language is a clear view of reality. Try not to be so condescending next time and read some of William James's philosophy.
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post #59 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by wirc

...if I get $1 off a $5 bagel with lox...

That argument is nonsense.
There is no $5 bagel, it's $4.99.
You can call it a sub-$5 bagel.

All pricing is done that way because it works.
post #60 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by smalM

That argument is nonsense.
There is no $5 bagel, it's $4.99.
You can call it a sub-$5 bagel.

All pricing is done that way because it works.

Marketing people do it that way because they think it works. In real life, no one else says it like that, that I've seen. Even the dumbest people I know don't say it that way because they aren't weenies, and said people aren't fooled by by such a dumb distinction either. From what I've heard, the practice wasn't even begun for such a silly reason. Nobody I know is dumb enough to think that $4.99 is sufficiently less than $5 to call it anything but $5. "Sub-$5" is just a dumbass maneuver.
post #61 of 87
Mm...I can see HP overtaking Dell because they are currently executing better. Arguably Apple is executing better than Gateway which is as likely to see share taken by HP and a Dell that performs better in 07 than in 06. Perhaps Apple can get to #3.

Likewise, I agree that it would be interesting to see Apple market share in the segments they actually try to compete in rather than the total market...edu, content creation, home as well as a breakdown by price segment.

Oh, you guys are ALL arguing about something stupid as $599 is certainly a sub-$1000 price. The folks that whine for a sub-$1000 tower are always whining and making predictions of doom (OMG Apple is 9% LESS than what is needed to sustain the plaform...Mac is DOOOMED!)...even when there is good news for Apple.

Plus, yes, a lot of folks would by a non-Apple OSX machine and arguably the past experience with clones and market share wasn't too positive for Apple. 20% share for OSX at the expense of Apple profitability is a dumb assed trade.

Vinea
post #62 of 87
http://www.macobserver.com/editorial/2003/04/08.1.shtml

Napkin math analysis of going the Gartner route from 2003. If Apple can make $50 per sale of OSX they needed 25% share just to break even in 2002.

It would be interesting to repeat this rough analysis for 2005/2006.

Now RedHat manages 82% gross margins and 28% net margins but they don't develop Linux. The open source support for OSX/Darwin is much smaller. Not to mention that OSX is better than Gnome or KDE and almost every component of OSX is arguably better than their OS counterpart (or will be with Safari 3 ) and that costs $$$. Redhat additionally leverages the investments made by Novell, IBM and HP.

Note that RedHat chrages $179 for desktop and $349 for RHEL-ES (with minimum support). in comparison OSX is $129. RedHat's real margins come from enterprise sales and frankly Apple doesn't even compete in that market. There's no flipping way for Apple to get the 80% gross margins that RedHat enjoys.

OSX is great but not so great that it will compete all that well vs Ubuntu for free or Vista Home that will get bundled.

Vinea
post #63 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Note that RedHat chrages $179 for desktop and $349 for RHEL-ES (with minimum support). in comparison OSX is $129.

You left out the pricing of the OS X equivalent to RHEL-ES. The price of the Linux server software shouldn't be compared directly against the consumer version of OS X.
post #64 of 87
Mkay...10 client OSX server is $499 and OSX server unlimited is $999.

I really doubt Apple sells many of those as the Xserve comes with an unlimited license. RedHat DOES sell a lot of ES licenses and for far more than $349...standard support is $799, RHEL-AS cost $1500 and $2500 for basic and standard levels of support. Standard desktop costs $299. But virtually nobody is paying $299 for RedHat desktop. They make money on server licenses.

Nice to miss the point though. There's no flipping way Apple is going to make money selling $500 OSX server licenses to run on Dell hardware. OSX is not all that great as a server OS anyway. Trying to make money on desktop sales against Windows and free Linuxes isn't the sure thing that folks claim.

Vinea
post #65 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

That's not it though. We're not talking about first grade arithmetic here. We're talking marketing.

Of course 999 is not 1,000. That's not even worth saying.

But no one would think anything other than a $999 computer is in their mind, a $1,000 computer. They take off the dollar to try to stop you from thinking that, but it is thought nevertheless.

People will even think that a $949 computer as a $1,000 model. It's just too close.

Before people stop thinking $1,000 in their minds, it has to drop to $899. Then they think: "Oh, $900 bucks".

You are talking arithmetic, but people round up to the next highest whole number, which in the case of 999, is 1,000.

That's why it's semantics. It's also psychology. The price has to be low enough so that people can't pull it up to the next higher category.

So they will look at two different machines, one costing $949, and the other $1,000 as being the same, but not if the lower one is $899.

Congratulations Mel. Your future in politics is assured.

I say this in an admiring way.

Busy right now, but I'll try to get back to you later.

.
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post #66 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by wirc

And how dare you accuse anyone of not understanding facts, when you are so tied to the belief that a rational understanding of language is a clear view of reality. Try not to be so condescending next time and read some of William James's philosophy.

Wow... wrong AND indignant, with a philosophy reference on the side. 8 out of 10. TBag gives it a thumbs-up for sheer pathos. 8)

.
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post #67 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Mkay...10 client OSX server is $499 and OSX server unlimited is $999.

I really doubt Apple sells many of those as the Xserve comes with an unlimited license. RedHat DOES sell a lot of ES licenses and for far more than $349...standard support is $799, RHEL-AS cost $1500 and $2500 for basic and standard levels of support. Standard desktop costs $299. But virtually nobody is paying $299 for RedHat desktop. They make money on server licenses.

Nice to miss the point though. There's no flipping way Apple is going to make money selling $500 OSX server licenses to run on Dell hardware. OSX is not all that great as a server OS anyway. Trying to make money on desktop sales against Windows and free Linuxes isn't the sure thing that folks claim.

I got the point, but I was pointing out an obviously incomplete comparison that didn't help your argument.

I'm not sure if Red Hat is an apt comparison because they are competing against a few other vendor supported distributions, and dozen other distributions available for free, and they are all fairly equivalent. And it's not that good of an OS for consumer use.
post #68 of 87
Since I am sure Mac hardware sales help support software R&D (not the other way around) and iPod sales compensate for iTunes R&D (and not the other way around), I doubt anyone needs to use more than a few dozen neurons to figure out that Apple needs to stay in the H/W business.
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post #69 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

I got the point, but I was pointing out an obviously incomplete comparison that didn't help your argument.

To be honest I never even thought about a server license for OSX. There's no obvious link to it from the Apple store OSX Tiger page...you get to choose individual or family. You need to search through software to find it.

Quote:
I'm not sure if Red Hat is an apt comparison because they are competing against a few other vendor supported distributions, and dozen other distributions available for free, and they are all fairly equivalent. And it's not that good of an OS for consumer use.

Well, I suppose Microsoft or Sun would be the other candidates. Of the two only MS doesn't make computers. I really don't think that MS is a better choice for comparison than RedHat since they are the dominant player from whom you're trying to capture share.

Wait, you aren't seriously thinking that Apple could make $100 on every copy of OSX are you?

Vinea
post #70 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland

"Apple's share of U.S. PC market jumps to 6.1 percent"

From what??

4.3 percent in 2005, according to International Data Corporation.

The statement "Apple's share of U.S. PC market jumps to 6.1 percent" really needs to be rephrased to "Apple's share of U.S. PC market in sales jumps to 6.1 percent"
post #71 of 87
Quote:
That argument is nonsense.
There is no $5 bagel, it's $4.99.
You can call it a sub-$5 bagel.

Actually, this is pretty common. Delis include tax, because they will get better business for the convenience of not having to give change. Secondly, you are right, it is a sub-$5 bagel. But what's the point? Nobody will squabble over $.01 in reality. It's not worth the pain, just like the cost of buying what is essentially a $1000 computer for $1.
Quote:
Wow... wrong AND indignant, with a philosophy reference on the side. 8 out of 10. TBag gives it a thumbs-up for sheer pathos.

I proved that you were both right and wrong in one post and all i get is your pity for my rage against you? What a lame prize. You should be telling me "touche" and then buying me a drink! I just think you don't get my point: that it's stupid to argue that one dollar does anyone but the biggest purchasers any good, and that holding to your point is stubborn. I claim no foul against Apple's marketers, but their cleverness does not help actual consumers. Life is fuzzy and gray, even if small actions are black-and-white.

Also - there were more than just one philosophy references in that post.
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post #72 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by smalM

That argument is nonsense.
There is no $5 bagel, it's $4.99.
You can call it a sub-$5 bagel.

All pricing is done that way because it works.

You don't get it either.
post #73 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoopaDrive

4.3 percent in 2005, according to International Data Corporation.

The statement "Apple's share of U.S. PC market jumps to 6.1 percent" really needs to be rephrased to "Apple's share of U.S. PC market in sales jumps to 6.1 percent"

The people to whom those reports are intended understand that already.
post #74 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoopaDrive

4.3 percent in 2005, according to International Data Corporation.

The statement "Apple's share of U.S. PC market jumps to 6.1 percent" really needs to be rephrased to "Apple's share of U.S. PC market in sales jumps to 6.1 percent"


thats what the market is... saying market in sales is redundant
post #75 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123

thats what the market is... saying market in sales is redundant

You could also refer to market share as a percent of installed base - but now that Apple is using the same hardware (with higher production quality) than PCs, I doubt that there is any reason that they will be in service for longer per unit (which would make sales and installed base trend to the same numbers over time).
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post #76 of 87
If Apple can solve the heat issue in their non-lap-compatible laptops, they will double their portable market share in a year. Focus: it's the heat.
post #77 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by debohun

If Apple can solve the heat issue in their non-lap-compatible laptops, they will double their portable market share in a year. Focus: it's the heat.

You mean the heat issue they solved, oh, 7 months ago?
post #78 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat

You mean the heat issue they solved, oh, 7 months ago?

Heh...not on my MBP...thing runs hot but not hot enough that I want to wipe it to replace with another.
post #79 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Heh...not on my MBP...thing runs hot but not hot enough that I want to wipe it to replace with another.

A couple of people I know with MBPs and MBs noticed the temperature dropped dramatically with a replacement battery. I had the same with an iBook that had a replacement battery under the recent battery replacement program.
post #80 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978

You could also refer to market share as a percent of installed base - but now that Apple is using the same hardware (with higher production quality) than PCs, I doubt that there is any reason that they will be in service for longer per unit (which would make sales and installed base trend to the same numbers over time).

That's very hard to do, because no one knows what that is.
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