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Ripe in Cupertino: an Apple with 8 cores - Page 4

post #121 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon

Severs have hardware raid cards in them.

That is true, but the bandwidth that a RAID takes isn't much compared to a gfx card. For example, Apple's Fibrechannel card is 4 lanes which is more than enough for 2Gbps each way. 10G networking could theoretically max out an 8 lane slot, 10G each way. Most of those slots in that machine appear to be four or eight lane slots to me, and there are a lot of them there.
post #122 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

That is true, but the bandwidth that a RAID takes isn't much compared to a gfx card. For example, Apple's Fibrechannel card is 4 lanes which is more than enough for 2Gbps each way. 10G networking could theoretically max out an 8 lane slot, 10G each way. Most of those slots in that machine appear to be four or eight lane slots to me, and there are a lot of them there.

there may be 4 to 8 slots but how many lanes does the chip set have altogether
also high end Intel workstations use the came chip set and in workstations you do see high end video cards as well as hardware RAID.
post #123 of 184
Hi all. I've been hanging out at the 8-Core Mac Pro with Clovertown... in November? thread over at MacRumors since this article hit. Not news to me. Been planning on buying the Dual Clovertown since Springtime. Anyone else here been on the "waiting list" that long? We're up to 172 posts over there. Drop by if you have a chance.

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post #124 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by baygbm

I’m all for faster machines, but an update to a Mac that was just introduced two months ago strikes me as poor planning, silly, or both. It’s also disrespectful to consumers.

I don’t have a Mac pro, but I’d be very unhappy if I did and then read this story... Sure, we expect and wants Macs to be updated... once a year seems reasonable... but two or three months later? ???

You're kidding right? No way are any Macs going to be upgraded only once a year. I am one of the Dual Clovertown customers and I have been anticipating its arrival since about March. Where have you been? This is old news most Quad G5 owners have known about almost all year. For you to suggest that the current owners of Quad Mac Pros didn't know Dual Clovertowns were coming right around the corner is to suggest none of the professionals do their homework before buying.

I am sure Apple understands this and knows they need to ship Dual Clovertowns as soon as they can get them. I doubt very many Quad G5 owners bit on the Quad Mac Pro. It is barely faster than the Quad G5 and those of us who have been using a Quad G5 for the better part of a year know it is WEAK compared to what we really need.

I am 100% certain that the Dual Clovertown is not going to be fast enough for most of us. And if you think it will, then you do not have nor have envisioned a Multi-Threaded Workload.

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post #125 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five

1) Apple *probably* won't release an upgrade until early 2007... I mean look at how long it took them to incorporate C2D into their product line.

Yeah about two weeks. The C2D iMac was among the first out of the gate. What planet do you live on? They are also among the first to ship standard 2.33GHz C2D mobile computers in massive quantity right now.

Dual Clovertowns will be released November 14th, the day after Intel's Monday November 13th Core 2 Quad Shipping Press Event.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five

2) Apple will likely offer it as an upgrade option. Like the article says, the current low-end model is the same price as a 3.0 GHz upgrade, the high-end $300 more than that.

No point in confusing customers with too many choices. One line will be added to the configure page's Processor section. It'll look like this on the config page:

Two 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon [Add $1399]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five

3) In order to compete on a higher level with the likes of Dell and HP, Apple must begin offering upgrades at the rate at which they are available. You don't see Dell sitting on their hands when there is a new processor. They announce a product the next day, practically. Of course, I appreciate the quality testing that Apple does, but seriously, the time they take... is unwarranted.

Waiting until January would be missing half a selling cycle as many businesses need to buy the Dual Clovertown Mac Pro before the first of the year for tax reasons. If you are so sure Apple needs to begin selling these soon, how can you in the same post claim it won't happen until January?

Makes no business sense for Apple to hold back 8-core Mac Pros until their annual consumer show. Mac Pros have little to do with the MacWorld Expo. Star of that show will be the new iTV for Joe Blow and his family not 8-core Mac Pros.

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post #126 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar

One way in which Nvidia cards are crippled on the Mac is screen rotation. ATI cards and even the low ass GMA 950 support screen rotation in Mac OS Tiger. For some reason, rotation is not available for Nvidia cards in Mac OS even though the same cards support rotation in Windows.

Yeah no kidding. And for those of us who use Dell rotationable monitors, it's a real failure on Apple's part not to insist those rotation drivers are written by Nvidea for Mac OSX - or have someone in Cupertino do it. The ATI card option for the Mac Pro does support rotaion on the Dells thank God. \

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post #127 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

Workstation users, sure. Not generally server users though.

Going by the sales of Alien, VooDoo, and other small makers, then tripling that number as a guess. I'd say possibly about 400 to 600 thousand a year. That's worldwide. It's just a guess.

So for a small fraction of a half million boxes per year this is more critical than the video content market why? Even if it's only tens of thousands of boxes...its not like Apple is suddenly going to capture a large share of the WINDOWS gamer market over the likes of Alien, VooDoo, etc that cater specifically to gamer needs, complete with neon lights and airbrushed cases.

That said more vidcard choices are better but the Mac Pro product IS still fairly new in a transition year. As is, its a minor miracle that Apple didn't screw up the Intel transition in some major fashion.

Vinea
post #128 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon

Severs have hardware raid cards in them.

Servers often have RAID built-into the mobo.

You don't need a 16 lane slot for a raid card, even if you had to put of your own in. Even 8 lanes would be a bit much for that. One lane has 256MB/s bandwidth.
post #129 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon

there may be 4 to 8 slots but how many lanes does the chip set have altogether
also high end Intel workstations use the came chip set and in workstations you do see high end video cards as well as hardware RAID.

If it's the same Woodcrest chipset, the 5000 series, it should have the same total number of lanes the Mac Pro has, which I think is 26.
post #130 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

So for a small fraction of a half million boxes per year this is more critical than the video content market why? Even if it's only tens of thousands of boxes...its not like Apple is suddenly going to capture a large share of the WINDOWS gamer market over the likes of Alien, VooDoo, etc that cater specifically to gamer needs, complete with neon lights and airbrushed cases.

That said more vidcard choices are better but the Mac Pro product IS still fairly new in a transition year. As is, its a minor miracle that Apple didn't screw up the Intel transition in some major fashion.

Vinea

Apple certainly won't suddenly capture a large percentage of the gamer market.

Who know what Apple is thinking?

But they have been seen as having plans that take years to materialize. If gamers move over in small numbers, and their experience is positive, they will relate that to their friends on the gaming sites, which will have also done reviews of Apple's products.

If all of that is favorable, we could see some momentum build up. In two or three years Apple could have a decent number of gamers on the platform. A large number of PC gamers I've spoken to over the past couple of years actually favor the Mac platform, and have looked at it wistfully. If that could translate to sales, that would be good.

I'm not denigrating the video market by any means. That was part of my business!

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't think of it as unimportant. There is likely a greater possibility of growth there then there is in the video market. That's all.

The video market is fairly mature on the Mac. It will increase, that's for sure. But Apple is already doing quite well there.

But, Apple has essentially none of the serious gamer market. Going from 0% to even 10% would bring in an entire new market to the platform, and a group of people who are greater than the video market in overall numbers.

Apple might sell Mac Pro's to them with the right cards. The same people buying $3,000 and up Alien and Voodoo machines now.

Even the iMac, particularly the 24" model, would be desireable—if a hotter card were installed.

Apple could fairly quickly gain 100 thousand sales a year to this crowd. I don't doubt that. Eventually, more.

The 500 thousand estimate is for higher end boxes, not the entire market.
post #131 of 184
Quote:
But, Apple has essentially none of the serious gamer market. Going from 0% to even 10% would bring in an entire new market to the platform, and a group of people who are greater than the video market in overall numbers.

I can agree that Apple should take the gaming market a little more seriously. Offering cards that would entice gamers to buy the Mac Pro or as you suggested offer an optionally better card for the iMac. I don't see how that would hurt Apple in any way.

From what I can see the PC gaming market has been a slow decline. With console gaming making the far majority of gaming profits, the Playstation by itself pretty much outsells everything else combined.

Alienware and Voodoo will fight tooth and nail to hold onto their part of the market. Is that fight worth the trouble for Apple?

Quote:
There is likely a greater possibility of growth there then there is in the video market. That's all.

I'm not so sure about this. Because mass communication is only expanding. Its not slowing at all. Every year more and more content is being created for every type of distribution channel. With more channels of distribution being created.

Once US television goes digital there will be the opportunity for networks to use their available bandwidth to broadcast five 480P channels instead of one 1080i. Many believe this is what they will do to increase advertising revenue.

New post production companies are starting everyday. Currently established post production companies expanding to keep pace with demand for more content.

Film schools are expanding their programs to meet the demand of more student interest in the profession.

One can easily edit DV and HDV on a $699 Mac mini with FCP. That price point is one that many people willing to pay.

Quote:
Apple could fairly quickly gain 100 thousand sales a year to this crowd. I don't doubt that. Eventually, more.

Also we cannot ignore the effect of consoles on PC sales. Consoles are getting better and better. I'm sure to the point where some PC gamers will stop buying new PC's and play more with the console.

I've heard great reviews of the XBox 360 and Playstation 3. How will they effect the future of sales?
post #132 of 184
I think that Apple views the gamer market in about the same light as the business market. Great where they can get some sales but not a targetted market. For the home it seems that Apple's strategy is TV since the gamer market is being fought over by MS, Sony, Nintendo.

Rather than try for that market with the mini (and better video) they pretty much just conceed the fight in the money losing hardware battle for new entrants. Same as they do for the large but low margin low-cost PC business market. iTV + Mini (or iMac) is positioned to co-exist with a Wii or PS3. Somewhat less so with at 360 since its a MCE as well.

That kind of thinking likely carries over to the Mac Pro since few gamers are in that $2K range anyway and the Pro is not a machine you want to lug to a LAN party... But what the heck, a couple more vidcards STILL wouldn't hurt and wouldn't take away from their overall strategy. I can see that it's probably not high on their lists of things to do right away thought.

Vinea
post #133 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

I think that Apple views the gamer market in about the same light as the business market. Great where they can get some sales but not a targetted market. For the home it seems that Apple's strategy is TV since the gamer market is being fought over by MS, Sony, Nintendo.

Rather than try for that market with the mini (and better video) they pretty much just conceed the fight in the money losing hardware battle for new entrants. Same as they do for the large but low margin low-cost PC business market. iTV + Mini (or iMac) is positioned to co-exist with a Wii or PS3. Somewhat less so with at 360 since its a MCE as well.

That kind of thinking likely carries over to the Mac Pro since few gamers are in that $2K range anyway and the Pro is not a machine you want to lug to a LAN party... But what the heck, a couple more vidcards STILL wouldn't hurt and wouldn't take away from their overall strategy. I can see that it's probably not high on their lists of things to do right away thought.

Vinea

Hmm. I've always felt Apple could take the gaming market more seriously.

But I guess other priorities came up. Like surviving...and getting back on the map...following near oblivion...turning the ship around...growth et al. Easier markets to hit than to compete with Sony PS, MS XBox, Nintendo.

Things have been turning around. And now Apple has traction in marketshare, at least in the US, at last. And in terms of notebooks? Apple's laptops can't be too bad for gaming (build in crappics not withstanding...on the Macbook...but for casual gaming...)

But as Apple moves to a marketshare of 10%? Things will begin to change. 1.61 million Macs sold is a new record. Let's say they get to 2 million a quarter. That's 8 million per year. In a four year life of a console..that translates into 32 million Macs. On top of the installed base.

That's got to be a hard market to ignore for games. Or for Apple to create that 'lower tier' Gaming tower with a dual core and a decent GPU (Macintosh Tower/Cube+.)

As Apple increases marketshare...all things become more possible.

Even the iPod is moving forward with games.

And it's worthy to note the remarkable promise of Open GL 2 improvements that are coming to Leopard. I think Apple has there eye on the gaming market. On the ball so to speak.

We may see the fruition of that with an Nvidia chipset in the iPod Video fullscreen? Maybe Apple will reveal their gaming hand at some point. Sell30-40 million of them Video eye pods in a few years and Pac Man will be the least we will get.

It wasn't so long ago that the Mac and the Apple II had some gaming credibility. Given another ten years and 100 million- in video iPod sales...in the next few years...who knows where we might be?

As to the thread title. I'd love an 8 core 2.66 octo monster for Photoshop and Lightwave. With an Nividia G80 or Ati 600... I hope Adobe actually take advantage of the Mac tech in Leopard. (Seeing what Apple have done with 'Fun house' and Aperture...)

8 x 2.66 sounds cool. But did I hear of a bump in 2007 Summer that sees us at 8x 3.47?!

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

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You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #134 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBellFrom what I can see the PC gaming market has been a slow decline. With console gaming making the far majority of gaming profits, the Playstation by itself pretty much outsells everything else combined. There is disagreement on that issue. PC gaming this tyear has done very well. Gaming on a PC will always have an advantage over than of a console. The console may seem advanced when it first comes out, but after a year or so, the computer has gone past it. After two or three years, there is no comparison.

[quote


Alienware and Voodoo will fight tooth and nail to hold onto their part of the market. Is that fight worth the trouble for Apple?

You're assuming that Apple has to fight for anything in that market. They don't. all they have to do is offer better cards, and they will gain marketshare. And as I've said, that market isn't shrinking.

Quote:
I'm not so sure about this. Because mass communication is only expanding. Its not slowing at all. Every year more and more content is being created for every type of distribution channel. With more channels of distribution being created.

Once US television goes digital there will be the opportunity for networks to use their available bandwidth to broadcast five 480P channels instead of one 1080i. Many believe this is what they will do to increase advertising revenue.

New post production companies are starting everyday. Currently established post production companies expanding to keep pace with demand for more content.

Film schools are expanding their programs to meet the demand of more student interest in the profession.

I'm well aware of this. But, that doesn't mean that sales will quadruple because of it. Many production studios are not at capacity now. They will add a workstation as they need it.

Studios add employees before they add equipment. They add shifts, and then weekend work.

The last thing they do is to add substantially to their hardware investment. That's always the last area to go.

Quote:
One can easily edit DV and HDV on a $699 Mac mini with FCP. That price point is one that many people willing to pay.

That, or an iMac, is the way schools, and individuals will go. But, many of those individuals are doing low quality work, and will end up with a cheap PC and Premiere. They won't be buying Macs.

Quote:
Also we cannot ignore the effect of consoles on PC sales. Consoles are getting better and better. I'm sure to the point where some PC gamers will stop buying new PC's and play more with the console.

I've heard great reviews of the XBox 360 and Playstation 3. How will they effect the future of sales?

I doubt that console sales prevent the sale of even one computer. People who want a computer will buy one. Those who don't, won't.
post #135 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

I think that Apple views the gamer market in about the same light as the business market. Great where they can get some sales but not a targetted market. For the home it seems that Apple's strategy is TV since the gamer market is being fought over by MS, Sony, Nintendo.

Rather than try for that market with the mini (and better video) they pretty much just conceed the fight in the money losing hardware battle for new entrants. Same as they do for the large but low margin low-cost PC business market. iTV + Mini (or iMac) is positioned to co-exist with a Wii or PS3. Somewhat less so with at 360 since its a MCE as well.

That kind of thinking likely carries over to the Mac Pro since few gamers are in that $2K range anyway and the Pro is not a machine you want to lug to a LAN party... But what the heck, a couple more vidcards STILL wouldn't hurt and wouldn't take away from their overall strategy. I can see that it's probably not high on their lists of things to do right away thought.

Vinea

That's what I'm saying.

The business market is very difficult to break into. Apple needs a division of sales personnel who can deal with it. They have to change their strategy of silence on their software and hardware roadmaps. They must freeze machine specs for two or three years when companies make those multi year purchase plan commitments. And more.

All they have to do to entice gamers is to add a few more video cards.
post #136 of 184
Quote:
You're assuming that Apple has to fight for anything in that market. They don't. all they have to do is offer better cards, and they will gain marketshare. And as I've said, that market isn't shrinking.

So you are saying there is nothing Alienware and Voodoo can do to protect their market?

Quote:
The last thing they do is to add substantially to their hardware investment. That's always the last area to go.

But they do spend significant amounts of money on new equipment. They are adopting new technology to enable them to do more work faster. Because their competition is adopting new technology to do the same

One particular company I know rents their Avid systems. Which enables them to cycle new systems about every 18 months. They do this to stay on the technology curve and compete.

Quote:
I doubt that console sales prevent the sale of even one computer.

That's a pretty definitive statement. How do you know this for sure?

I'm sure there is a group of people who are staunch PC gamers who shun console gaming. But logically speaking looking over the entire gaming market and looking at the rise of consoles their has to be some number of PC gamers who decide console gaming is good enough and do not buy a new PC gaming rig.

Add to that people who could potentially be PC gamers but are console gamers in greater numbers
post #137 of 184
[QUOTE=TenoBell]So you are saying there is nothing Alienware and Voodoo can do to protect their market? [quote]

what I'm saying is that I read some of the gamer sites, and have spoken to more than a few myself. A good number of them would like to get a Mac, but couldn't, because of the game situation.

Boot Camp is changing that. They don't mind booting into Boot Camp to play games.

But, they need better video cards. And they want the ones THEY want. Mid range and top range cards from BOTH ATI and Nvidia.

All Apple has to do to gain those people as customers is to either provide cards themselves, or help to pay for development of firmware and drivers by others. It's been done before.

Quote:
But they do spend significant amounts of money on new equipment. They are adopting new technology to enable them to do more work faster. Because their competition is adopting new technology to do the same

One particular company I know rents their Avid systems. Which enables them to cycle new systems about every 18 months. They do this to stay on the technology curve and compete.

Adopting new equipment is a part of the business that must be taken care of. I continually bought newer equipment on a regular cycle.

But, that's different from expanding your shop. We, and others, always did new hires first. Only when sales increase to the point of requiring new equipment did we buy it.

It also has to be understood that most shops simply don't have much space for expansion. That means renting more floor, and an expensive, and long term, committment.

Quote:
That's a pretty definitive statement. How do you know this for sure?

It's no more definitive than any of the statements you've made about it.

It's also pretty logical. If you want a game console, and you don't care about computers, then you will only buy a game console.

If you want to get online, and do what is only done conveniently with a real computer, you will buy one of those.

The add ons for the PS2 and XBox to allow for this were dismal failures.

Quote:
I'm sure there is a group of people who are staunch PC gamers who shun console gaming. But logically speaking looking over the entire gaming market and looking at the rise of consoles their has to be some number of PC gamers who decide console gaming is good enough and do not buy a new PC gaming rig.

Most people I know who like games play both. But a bunch don't have a console. I don't know any gamer above the age of ten who doesn't have a computer as well, though I'm sure there must be a few.
post #138 of 184
Quote:
All Apple has to do to gain those people as customers is to either provide cards themselves, or help to pay for development of firmware and drivers by others. It's been done before.

I understand that. With this being a niche market that is the primary market for Alienware and Voodoo. Would they just sit and watch as Apple so effortlessly takes away a portion of their market? Would they not do something to leverage gamer loyalty? The same as Sony and Microsoft do.

Quote:
Adopting new equipment is a part of the business that must be taken care of. But, that's different from expanding your shop.

Yes I know my point was irrespective of expansion or hiring new people they are always investing in new equipment.

Quote:
Only when sales increase to the point of requiring new equipment did we buy it.

Which is my entire point. Mass communication is a growing field. New content is always being create along with new ways of distributing content. Which will increase sales for any post house that can accommodate the extra work.

Quote:
It also has to be understood that most shops simply don't have much space for expansion. That means renting more floor, and an expensive, and long term, committment.

Yes this has been happening. Technicolor New York, Goldcrest Post New York, and Able Cine Tech are three companies in the last couple of years who have had major expansions in New York. They all moved into buildings occupying more floor space than they previously needed.

In the case of Technicolor NY and Goldcrest Post they both invested millions into new equipment for their new facilities.

Quote:
It's also pretty logical. If you want a game console, and you don't care about computers, then you will only buy a game console.

There will be those people out there who would have previously spent $1500 to $2000 on a PC. That will decide with my limited entertainment dollars it will be better for me to buy a 36" flat screen HDTV and a Playstation 3.

The only question I see is will that be a few PC gamers or a lot of PC gamers.

Quote:
The add ons for the PS2 and XBox to allow for this were dismal failures.

Microsoft reports XBOX Live as a success. Either way both they and Sony are spending lots of money on their online gaming so it will improve.

Quote:
I don't know any gamer above the age of ten who doesn't have a computer as well, though I'm sure there must be a few.

Most every male friend I know own one or more of the three major console machines. I only know two people who regularly play games on PC.
post #139 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell

I understand that. With this being a niche market that is the primary market for Alienware and Voodoo. Would they just sit and watch as Apple so effortlessly takes away a portion of their market? Would they not do something to leverage gamer loyalty? The same as Sony and Microsoft do.

You've missed my twice stated point. There isn't anything Alien, Voodoo, or any other PC company can do, if their customers want another platform, and now have the excuse to get one.

If their customers want a Mac, and can now play PC games on it, what can these companies do?

They compete with each other. Apple has had that same problem. If someone wanted a PC, they weren't going to get a Mac, no matter what.

The toe is being put into the water, tentative though it might be. If the cards are there, it will happen.

Quote:
Which is my entire point. Mass communication is a growing field. New content is always being create along with new ways of distributing content. Which will increase sales for any post house that can accommodate the extra work.

Any expansion of work will not be so quick. The broadcast companies won't be producing much new material so quickly. Most of what we will se will be paid commercials, or old programming. They aren't going to rush out a pour hundreds of millions into new shows. Hell, they can barely afford the ones they have on now!

Quote:
Yes this has been happening. Technicolor New York, Goldcrest Post New York, and Able Cine Tech are three companies in the last couple of years who have had major expansions in New York. They all moved into buildings occupying more floor space than they previously needed.

In the case of Technicolor NY and Goldcrest Post they both invested millions into new equipment for their new facilities.

And Technocolor is in serious financial trouble. I don't know about Goldcrest, I haven't dealt with them.

Quote:
There will be those people out there who would have previously spent $1500 to $2000 on a PC. That will decide with my limited entertainment dollars it will be better for me to buy a 36" flat screen HDTV and a Playstation 3.

I doubt that very much. Games and computers are very different animals. computers can substitute for consoles, but consoles can't substitute for computers.

Quote:
The only question I see is will that be a few PC gamers or a lot of PC gamers.

A lot of PC gamers.

Quote:
Microsoft reports XBOX Live as a success. Either way both they and Sony are spending lots of money on their online gaming so it will improve.

That's not what I was talking about. I was mentioning the accessories that would allow the boxes to be used as limited computers, and access the internet, email, etc.

Quote:
Most every male friend I know own one or more of the three major console machines. I only know two people who regularly play games on PC.

That's unusual. But, I'll bet they all have computers, and use them regularly.
post #140 of 184
Quote:
The broadcast companies won't be producing much new material so quickly. Most of what we will se will be paid commercials, or old programming. They aren't going to rush out a pour hundreds of millions into new shows. Hell, they can barely afford the ones they have on now!

Really it does not cost that much to actually produce a movie or television show. Most of that money is going directly into the pockets of producers, directors, and actors. It appears the conglomerate parent companies are getting tired of Hollywoods inefficient spending and will force them to go through some painful restructuring.

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And Technocolor is in serious financial trouble.

How so? Technicolor is owned by the French electronics giant THOMSON. I haven't heard of THOMSON being in serious financial trouble and they've been expanding Technicolor.

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That's unusual. But, I'll bet they all have computers, and use them regularly.

How is that unusual? The console market is several times larger than the PC gaming market.
post #141 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell

Really it does not cost that much to actually produce a movie or television show. Most of that money is going directly into the pockets of producers, directors, and actors. It appears the conglomerate parent companies are getting tired of Hollywoods inefficient spending and will force them to go through some painful restructuring.

Half hour episodes of even situation comedies run a quarter million. Hour episodes of action shows run up to $1.5 million.

they only make money (hopefully) when they are in re-run, and have been on for at least three years with original episodes.

So, yes, it is very expensive. This is one of the biggest problems being discussed today in television.

The only restructuring you are going to see is more programs being brought inhouse. That cuts costs by about 25%.


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How so? Technicolor is owned by the French electronics giant THOMSON. I haven't heard of THOMSON being in serious financial trouble and they've been expanding Technicolor.

They are. divisions of companies have their own balance sheets, as you must know.

Like Chrysler losing $1.2 billion dollars most recently, even though it is part of Mercedes.

They are talking of cutting it loose again.

Quote:
How is that unusual? The console market is several times larger than the PC gaming market.

That's not a universally agreed upon opinion. Gamers who have consoles may play, and buy, more games. But it isn't agreed that there are more of them, or that they are completely seperate from PC gamers. Most often, they are the same person.
post #142 of 184
Quote:
Half hour episodes of even situation comedies run a quarter million. Hour episodes of action shows run up to $1.5 million.

they only make money (hopefully) when they are in re-run, and have been on for at least three years with original episodes.

Yes all of that is true.

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The only restructuring you are going to see is more programs being brought inhouse. That cuts costs by about 25%.

There is plenty of room to rein in unnecessary costs and inefficient spending.

Studios signing actors, producers, and production companies exorbitantly and unnecessarily expensive productions deals. These costs are now being reined in. Such as Paramount cutting Tom Cruise from his multimillion dollar production deal.

Paying actors 20 million per movie or multimillions per television season. There is no real reason for this outside of hubris and ego.

Productions being unnecessarily burdened with too many producers. These are mostly people who are trying to grab a piece of the pie. Some TV shows list as many as 15 producers. These are obvious cost over runs and inefficiency.

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They are talking of cutting it loose again.

You may be right but I haven't seen anything about that. Why would they continue to expand Technicolor's service.

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That's not a universally agreed upon opinion. Gamers who have consoles may play, and buy, more games. But it isn't agreed that there are more of them, or that they are completely seperate from PC gamers.

The cold numbers tell the truth. Look at hardware sales. PC gaming hardware sells hundreds of thousands of machines annually. Console gaming hardware sells over a hundred million machines annually.
post #143 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell

Yes all of that is true.


There is plenty of room to rein in unnecessary costs and inefficient spending.

Studios signing actors, producers, and production companies exorbitantly and unnecessarily expensive productions deals. These costs are now being reined in. Such as Paramount cutting Tom Cruise from his multimillion dollar production deal.

Paying actors 20 million per movie or multimillions per television season. There is no real reason for this outside of hubris and ego.

Productions being unnecessarily burdened with too many producers. These are mostly people who are trying to grab a piece of the pie. Some TV shows list as many as 15 producers. These are obvious cost over runs and inefficiency.

Some of what you are saying is true. But not all of it.

The costs that bringing production into house will cut back on some of those problems you mentioned. But some are simply part of the production process that can't be eliminated.

Firing Tom Cruise had little to do with his salary per picture per se. it had much more to do with the foolish public antics he's been having. Polls had shown that people were tired of him because of that, and therefore his value to the studio was dropping.

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You may be right but I haven't seen anything about that. Why would they continue to expand Technicolor's service.

Shrinking the services they offer is just the beginning of saying that the company is dying.

They expand services in the hope that is will gain business and turn the company around.

Quote:
The cold numbers tell the truth. Look at hardware sales. PC gaming hardware sells hundreds of thousands of machines annually. Console gaming hardware sells over a hundred million machines annually.

That's not the truth. That's only a small part of it.

Do you think the only ones playing games on PCs are the ones buying from Alien and VooDoo?

The numbers are more like this:

Gaming consoles (not including portables, that's different) don't sell 100 million a year. Sony broke the 100 million sales number for the PS2 in late 2005. That was the cumulative number. Sales of consoles per year are about half of that, 50 million a year, perhaps a bit more, or perhaps not.

But more than 220 million computers were sold last year as well.

Those who play games on computers are not as committed as much in the aggragate, but there are a lot of them.
post #144 of 184
Here are some numbers. Not all are the most recent, but I just went to one site that has articles on this.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060115-5983.html

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060315-6390.html

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060822-7556.html

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061025-8074.html

There's quite a bit more.

One thing that can be seen, in some of these articles, as well as others, is that it's the handheld, portable consoles like the DS that are growing, while the home console market is shrinking.

It's felt that portables are cutting into sales. The high price of the new machines will limit sales, and the newly enervated PC gaming market is also cutting into sales.
post #145 of 184
Quote:
The costs that bringing production into house will cut back on some of those problems you mentioned. But some are simply part of the production process that can't be eliminated.

Hollywood is worse than Washington with cronyism. A television show with 15 producers, everyone knows most of those are vanity and political titles. Giving a friend a producer tile, repaying someone for past a favor, lobbying someone for a favor in the future. These behind the scenes politics generally have little or nothing to do with producing this one television show.

There is no reason why studios have to pay actors ungodly amounts of money. All they need to do is say no. Which they have begun to do.

Quote:
Firing Tom Cruise had little to do with his salary per picture per se. it had much more to do with the foolish public antics he's been having. Polls had shown that people were tired of him because of that, and therefore his value to the studio was dropping.

Entertainers are always involved with foolish antics: drugs scandals, prostitution scandals, murder scandals. They generally weather almost any scandal with little damage to their career. I think Tom Cruise's offense was quite a bit less dramatic than any of that.

It was reported in Variety that Paramount and Cruise had already decided to absolve their relationship. Paramount wanted to decrease their obligation to his production company while Tom wanted to increase it. They could not agree on a final deal and decided to go their separate ways.

Paramount officials were surprised when Viacom chief Sumner Redstone announced that they were firing Tom Cruise because of his devotion to scientology. Paramount told Variety that the split was over money and not his religious beliefs.
post #146 of 184
Quote:
It's felt that portables are cutting into sales. The high price of the new machines will limit sales, and the newly enervated PC gaming market is also cutting into sales.

This is over a time with out the Playstation 3 available. The Playstation market has become saturated and slowing sales. But it still out sells the XBOX 360.

We shall see what happens in the near future when the PS 3 is available with HD games and MS has to compete directly with it.
post #147 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell

Hollywood is worse than Washington with cronyism. A television show with 15 producers, everyone knows most of those are vanity and political titles. Giving a friend a producer tile, repaying someone for past a favor, lobbying someone for a favor in the future. These behind the scenes politics generally have little or nothing to do with producing this one television show.

Some is cronyism. So take off 1% of the costs for that.

When I was shooting Tv commercials in the early '70's, I had a sound man who did the work, and another who waited around for the first one to drop dead. Other areas have the same problem. Take off another 5%.

Those were (and still are) union rules.

Many shows have several producers. They are called segment producers, because that's the way some shows are done. 60 Minutes is a good example of that. Each story has it's own producer. it must be that way. News programs must be done that way as well. Other programs, have producers for action segments, home segments, etc. It's done that way because there isn't much time to shoot a weekly show. This way they can break the show into several mutually exclusive parts, and shoot them at the same time. Therefore, sometimes they have more than one director as well. They are called "unit" directors. Even movies are done that way. They have producers and directors to take shots of inter-scene background, etc.

Your 15 producers is a bit on the high side though. What show did you see that had so many?

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There is no reason why studios have to pay actors ungodly amounts of money. All they need to do is say no. Which they have begun to do.

Sure they do. It's called supply and demand. When new shows with unknown actors become popular, and both viewer-ship and ad revenue go up, prices go up as well. Actors demand higher wages.

Look to sports. Do you really think that those people are worth multiple millions for several months of playing games?

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Entertainers are always involved with foolish antics: drugs scandals, prostitution scandals, murder scandals. They generally weather almost any scandal with little damage to their career. I think Tom Cruise's offense was quite a bit less dramatic than any of that.

People love those sexual antics, and other bits of trouble the star they hate to love, and love to hate get into. There is an entire industry built up around this gossip.

But, Cruise went over the top. He was espousing his religious beliefs while making cruel fun of those others have.

We don't tolerate that here in a public forum. What he may say in private is his business, but not in public. People are upset with that. It was over the top.

Quote:
It was reported in Variety that Paramount and Cruise had already decided to absolve their relationship. Paramount wanted to decrease their obligation to his production company while Tom wanted to increase it. They could not agree on a final deal and decided to go their separate ways.

That was just part of it. If they had felt that his value hadn't been diluted, they would have worked it out.

Quote:
Paramount officials were surprised when Viacom chief Sumner Redstone announced that they were firing Tom Cruise because of his devotion to scientology. Paramount told Variety that the split was over money and not his religious beliefs.

Paramount is spinning. It wasn't over his religious beliefs. More than a few in the entertainment industry believe in Scientology. They aren't the subject of controversy. He is.

Money comes into it when it's felt that his star value isn't what is once was. in the hinterland of the country where religious conservatives reign, his spouting will lessen the sales of the product.

Even the religious right in this country, for the most part, have no problem with people's odd religions. But when those people make fun of theirs, they become very unhappy. Cruise certainly alienated me, and I'm anything but religious. Think of how that other part of America feels about him.

So, yes, it's money. But, not really for the reasons they gave.
post #148 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell

This is over a time with out the Playstation 3 available. The Playstation market has become saturated and slowing sales. But it still out sells the XBOX 360.

We shall see what happens in the near future when the PS 3 is available with HD games and MS has to compete directly with it.

This is over the past two years. No one thinks that either the 360 or the PS3 will gain the number of yearly sales their older brothers did. The Wii will do well, but likely not much better than before.
post #149 of 184
"No one thinks"

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #150 of 184
I have a friend that's considering getting a PS 3 over a PC. That's quite a change for a PC centric like him.

Personally, I'm trying to convince him to shell out his peas on an 8-core Mac when they arrive. He'd be more creative and can still buy his 'PC games'...

But the PS3 visuals look pretty good to me... The trailers do look amazing. I hope it does well. Just because of M$ making 360 and all.

Lemon Bon Bon

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #151 of 184
Quote:
Some is cronyism. So take off 1% of the costs for that.

Producers collectively as a bunch are taking far more than 1% of a productions budget. Are you familiar with above the line and bellow the line salary?

Quote:
Your 15 producers is a bit on the high side though. What show did you see that had so many?

For CSI Crime Scene Investigators IMDB lists 50 people who have been credited as some type of producer. 18 were credited for a temporary time, which leaves one to assume 32 are on staff.

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Actors demand higher wages.

They can demand it but it doesn't mean it has to be given to them. On a typically budgeted $80 million dollar movie you have one or two actors taking a third of the budget.

But all of that is being scaled back.

Quote:
Look to sports. Do you really think that those people are worth multiple millions for several months of playing games?

None of them are getting paid $20 million a game. The total amount of their contract extends over years. Generally when a player is traded to a new team, the new team picks up the same contract that player had with his old team. Pretty much all major sports leagues except baseball have a salary cap.

Players make far more money from commercial endorsement deals than they make from their team.

Quote:
Money comes into it when it's felt that his star value isn't what is once was. in the hinterland of the country where religious conservatives reign, his spouting will lessen the sales of the product.

The money wasn't direct salary to Tom Cruise. It was money paying the over head of his production company. Tom Cruise being ridiculously rich Paramount was less interested in paying the overhead for his production company because Viacom is telling them to reduce costs. The same has happened with other studios and actors who have not gone on rants about scientology. Notably Jim Carey has also been released from his production deal with 20th Century Fox I believe it was.
post #152 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell

Producers collectively as a bunch are taking far more than 1% of a productions budget. Are you familiar with above the line and bellow the line salary?

Yes, I am. But they still don't get as much as you think they do. I'll get to that in the next paragraph.

Quote:
For CSI Crime Scene Investigators IMDB lists 50 people who have been credited as some type of producer. 18 were credited for a temporary time, which leaves one to assume 32 are on staff.

Many times a "producer" is a production assistant. Not a real producer. That takes care of many of the names rolling down. Many of these "producers" are spending their time running out for coffee.

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They can demand it but it doesn't mean it has to be given to them. On a typically budgeted $80 million dollar movie you have one or two actors taking a third of the budget.

They get it if they are popular enough. Like ARod from the Yankees. He gets $26.5 million a year. Is he worth it? Not to me. But he brings fans to the stadium, and they want to see him on Tv.

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But all of that is being scaled back.

I've heard that all before. But it always seems to go higher. One station several years ago said that action adventures were too expensive, so they were cutting back on them. Their ratings plummeted, and they changed their minds.

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None of them are getting paid $20 million a game. The total amount of their contract extends over years. Generally when a player is traded to a new team, the new team picks up the same contract that player had with his old team. Pretty much all major sports leagues except baseball have a salary cap.

You have to look at income. No game makes $100 to $500 million. Each big movie might. And with DVD sales and toys and whatever other junk people will buy, they can easily double that.


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Players make far more money from commercial endorsement deals than they make from their team.

A handful do. The rest do mostly local ads where they don't make much.

Quote:
The money wasn't direct salary to Tom Cruise. It was money paying the over head of his production company. Tom Cruise being ridiculously rich Paramount was less interested in paying the overhead for his production company because Viacom is telling them to reduce costs. The same has happened with other studios and actors who have not gone on rants about scientology. Notably Jim Carey has also been released from his production deal with 20th Century Fox I believe it was.

a lot of stars have that these days. They get part of the profits, but don't share in the losses. They have their own production companies, etc. If they are worth it, nobody cares.

Carey changed agents, and left that contract because he wasn't happy.
post #153 of 184
I call that this thread has been derailed…
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SuperDrive delete
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post #154 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRonin

I call that this thread has been derailed

I second that. Especially since the discussion is now about how Apple should appeal to gamers... give it up guys.
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Providing grist for the rumour mill since 2001.
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post #155 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Programmer

I second that. Especially since the discussion is now about how Apple should appeal to gamers... give it up guys.

I'd be happy to. I made a simple statement, and it got out of hand.
post #156 of 184
I posted this over on the plain old Mac thread.

I think Apple maybe dropping a hint that what they have available now is it and don't expect anything new or different. Look at the new layout of the Mac Pro configuration page on the Apple store! Select the Compare Specs tab and you will see "Which Mac are you?" with the 24" iMac and then the base config and beside that the suggestions for upgrades.

http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObje...A0&nclm=MacPro

I'm afraid Apple are sticking to the current line up and telling us dreamers where to stick it in terms of a regular Conroe tower. Also I just read on The Register that some the quad core chips are power hungry beasts.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11...l_fwives_core/

Otellini suggests that next year there will be 50 — 80 watt quads so I wouldn't be surprised if Apple waits till then to shuffle the MAc Pro line up. MAybe they might put a regular Kentsfield in so we could use regular RAM. They might do a top end dual quad at the top end for the moment for those begging for it but I think their position is clear, if you look at the "Compare" page with iMac 24 at c$2000 and the Mac Pro at c¢2500. I don't think they will drop prices on the Mac Pro with any silent upgrade. They probably factored that into the original price at intro hence cheaper than a Dell.
post #157 of 184
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post #158 of 184
Yeah we've gone way off topic. Obviously we are both stubborn. But I have to address one last thing.

Quote:
Many times a "producer" is a production assistant.

In broadcast television the title producer means something a bit different than movies and filmed television.

In movies and filmed television a PA is pretty much the worst job you can have and the complete polar opposite of a producer. They don't get any official credit to the project and certainly don't get credit as a producer.

A friend of mine Paul Lindsay is currently a PA on the television show Las Vegas, see his name in there with the producers?


I'm finished.
post #159 of 184
So back on topic...which of the various OS's (Linux, Windows, OSX, Solaris) is best for a 8 core Mac Pro? Just from the perspective of SMP support...
post #160 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

So back on topic...which of the various OS's (Linux, Windows, OSX, Solaris) is best for a 8 core Mac Pro? Just from the perspective of SMP support...

I think that OS X might be last place simply because it would be the newest platform to the 8-way mix, with no official support or even official systems for it yet. The rest have supported 8-way for quite some time now, Sun was probably first but maybe Windows and Linux have probably mostly caught up. This is must my vaguely educated opinion.
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