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I think It's Time for Andy Reid to Go

post #1 of 51
Thread Starter 
Hello All,

Before you flip, read on. I have been an Eagles fan now for many years. A few years ago I posted a thread called "The Eagles Are a Joke: Fire Andy Reid." This was the season after he was named Coach of the Year. I was cautioned on overreacting. That year they went to the NFC championship, but lost. I reconsidered and decided I was being emotional.

In any case: I think Andy Reid is a great guy. He has great knoweldge and great experience. He has done a good job with a team that was in bad shape when he took over. They have had some real successes in the last 7 years.

That said, I think it may be time for him to go. He simply does not motivate the team the way he should. He has admitted as much. There are too many mistakes, too many penalties, too many times where they don't show up. Certainly this is expected from time to time, but it's several times a year...every year. Then there is the horrific clock managmement and play calling, which Reid has also acknowledged. However, he keeps promising to fix it and it doesn't get fixed. Even this week, he's giving them the week off. I think that after three straight losses, that's a mistake.

Even if the Eagles turn it around this year and become the team I think they could be, I will likely feel the same way. They need a motivator...someone to get in their faces. They need to tell McNabb stop with his cavalier attitude....to be a little harder on himself when he throws three interceptions and then says "things like that will happen in this league and in this offense." They need urgency. They need to come out and play every week, and they don't. (disclaimer: I like McNabb!)

This is not a rant. I just think heads have to roll. It's time for big change. It's not the players...they have a talented QB and backs and an improving recieving corps. They need leadership...a slave driver if you will that will elmininate the mental mistakes. That man is not the laid back gentle giant that is Andy Reid.

Your Thoughts....
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post #2 of 51
I don't believe that. Andy Reid is not the problem, player personnel is.

Their receivers are mediocre, the tight end is one of the worst at his position, and teams simply just focus their plan on Westbrook every week.

Also, the Eagles' defense is second to last in the league in TOP. It's hard to win many games when your defense is on the field the majority of the game.

And it's really not that bad SDW. For how shitty the Eagles offensive players are they still put up decent numbers despite their lack of stars. When mediocre players can put up better than average numbers obviously the system is correct. And unfortunately, because of the Eagles' current offensive roster, the west coast offense is really the only kind of offense they can run. To fire Andy Reid would be shooting themselves in the foot, as it would be hard to replace him with a coach with a entirely different system. There aren't too many available WCO coaches right now.

But hey, if you want to call Jim Fassel up, be my guest. I'd stick with Andy Reid...
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post #3 of 51
I think what the Eagles need most is a quality back-up running back. Their offense (beyond McNab) revolves around Westbrook, and he simply gets hurt too much.
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post #4 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

I don't believe that. Andy Reid is not the problem, player personnel is.

Their receivers are mediocre, the tight end is one of the worst at his position, and teams simply just focus their plan on Westbrook every week.

Also, the Eagles' defense is second to last in the league in TOP. It's hard to win many games when your defense is on the field the majority of the game.

And it's really not that bad SDW. For how shitty the Eagles offensive players are they still put up decent numbers despite their lack of stars. When mediocre players can put up better than average numbers obviously the system is correct. And unfortunately, because of the Eagles' current offensive roster, the west coast offense is really the only kind of offense they can run. To fire Andy Reid would be shooting themselves in the foot, as it would be hard to replace him with a coach with a entirely different system. There aren't too many available WCO coaches right now.

But hey, if you want to call Jim Fassel up, be my guest. I'd stick with Andy Reid...

I don't agree that player personnel is the problem. McNabb has the potential to be a hall of fame quaterback. He just needs better coaching. I might agree with you on tight end and running backs. They need a power back...period. The recieivers have real potential...I blame their performance on age and coaching.

The defense is a problem, mostly due to TOP and passing defense. I think Jim Johnson needs to go ballistic on these guys in the secondary, young or not.

But what I'm talking about IS Andy Reid. Mental mistakes. False starts. Poor clock management. Not getting the play in fast enough. Not having the team emotionally ready...week after week, year after year. Shitty play calling and mea culpas every press conference. He knows it's his fault if you listen to him. I'm not saying fire him...I think he should resign at the end of the year. Thsi has been going on for years. He simply doesn't create emotion in the team. I remember when they started 0-2 a few years ago...it was the same thing. They are doing things poorly at a fundamental level, things that college coaches wouldn't put up with. If this was the first or second year for this kind of stuff, I might feel differently. But how many times should we go through this? Fool me once. Fool me twice. Fool me three and four times? Mea culpa or not....at some point the line must be drawn.
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post #5 of 51
SDW2001, let me ask you this. Should the Steeler's have fired Bill Cowher 4 or 5 years ago (I'm not sure when exactly it was, but they had a couple down years in a row and there were calls for his firing)? There's something to be said for sticking with a guy.
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post #6 of 51
Wait a minute! I forgot. We're talking to a Philly fan here.

There's no point trying to appease SDW. It's embedded in their blood to be pissed off about something on their sports teams...

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post #7 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder

SDW2001, let me ask you this. Should the Steeler's have fired Bill Cowher 4 or 5 years ago (I'm not sure when exactly it was, but they had a couple down years in a row and there were calls for his firing)? There's something to be said for sticking with a guy.

Different situation. I agree with you in principle. But we're seeing the same mistakes again and again...unaccpetable and preventable mistakes. I'm not talking about some down years. I'm talking coaching specific things, like clock management, play calling, preparation, etc.
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post #8 of 51
As a lifelong Redskins fan, I know exactly how you feel, but I think the ultimate problem is with the state of football as a whole, and it's that the NFL has a monopoly. They carefully orchestrate the schedules, the salary cap, and the transfer/draft programs in order to maximize dollars that go to the league AT THE COST of the fans and players.

The NCAA is in it too, perhaps even worse. I refuse to patronize football until either the salary cap is ended or until the cartel with the NCAA is terminated. More Americans need to at least do some research into how the world's soccer leagues are constructed: ultra-competition in all regards, relegation/promotion, very few regulations. The competition is so cut-throat that the fans win tremendously. The only way I can see to do this with American football is to eliminate the salary cap and the ruse that NCAA is not a professional league. Fuck the draft. Set up two, three, or possibly even four minor leagues instead of using the university system. It's not like these players are at school to learn, anyhow.

Getting back, Andy Reid is a better coach than most. The problem with the Eagles is that they play in the NFL, and at that they play in the NFC East -- the most competitive market by a longshot. The NFL's current policies screw-over major markets the most. If the Colts played in the NFC East, they'd be lucky to make it to the playoffs. But Peyton is too marketable for the NFL to even consider scheduling any away games at cold or otherwise hostile, outdoor stadiums (other than the mandatory meeting in Foxboro).
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post #9 of 51
Splinemodel, do you realize, that except for 2 games a year based on how you finished in your division, that the NFL has a very rigid and set schedule rotation? I mean, don't you think the NFL would love to have Manning vs. Manning every freaking year? It's not scheduled to happen again for eight years, and payton will probably be retired by then.
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post #10 of 51
Yes, of course I realize how the scheduling works, and I think it's bullshit. The rigidity in the scheduling is just another tool the NFL uses to manipulate its markets. In order to maintain the guise of fairness, the scheduling has to have some rules, but it's easy enough to draw the division lines to affect the scheduling as such.

It all stinks. If you can't smell it, then watch non-monopolized sports to see the kind of dynamics we're missing in football.
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post #11 of 51
What do you mean draw the division lines? The divisions are based largely on geography, with the exception of maintaining some old rivalries (such as Dallas being in the NFC East). Where the good teams are in the NFL ebs and flows, and I think calling the NFC East "by far" the toughest division a highly suspect claim.

Edit - going back to your original comment, how are they screwing over the major markets? The current system makes everyone lots of money, which is why, once the requisite bitching and moaning was over, the major market teams agreed on a new revenue sharing agreement. If they hadn't, the salary cap would have been out the door in the near future, and then you can kiss the green bay packers goodbye.
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post #12 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder

What do you mean draw the division lines?

Basing divisions on geography seems like a good idea, but population density makes for major markets, and when only limited amount of major market teams are allowed to go through to the playoffs, it screws over a lot more fans than it would if the bulk of the midwest never went to the playoffs. Instead, the NFC East contains the bulk of the pre-cap glory teams, and certainly all of the major markets, which is ridiculous because the small markets seem to care more about NCAA ball anyway. The NFL wants to dilute talent and promote volatility (salary cap, heavy emphasis on divisional play) in order to bring more money out of otherwise small markets.

So I get back to talent dilution. Football games are a shadow of what they used to be. There are never any big matches anymore. The Superbowl and the playoffs aren't spectacular. At all. Again, fans getting screwed.

Anyway, I don't expect for any changes to be made because the league and the teams, and the D1 Universities are making tons of money by exploiting the current system. But it makes for a shitty sport, which is why I have given up on football. I'm happy to watch soccer and baseball instead.
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post #13 of 51
So the big cities should go to the playoffs, because they're big cities and have more people? That makes zero sense to me. There have bee a virtual orge of close, last second games in the last two weeks.

Edit: Also, superbowls are hit and miss because it's just one game, and it's always been that way. All thos superbowls where the NFC rolled over the AFC in the late 80's were pre-salary cap era.

Recently, we've had such spectacular superbowls at St. Louis / Tennessee in 2000 and New England / St. Louis in 2002. In the 7 superbowls this century, there have been 2 classics (mentioned above) two good games (The other two New England victories) and three duds (Baltimore / NY, Tampa / Oakland, and Pittsburgh / Seattle). The quality of playoff games (beyond superbowls) has been overall excellent. You just haven't been watching.
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post #14 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder

Recently, we've had such spectacular superbowls at St. Louis / Tennessee in 2000 and New England / St. Louis in 2002. In the 7 superbowls this century, there have been 2 classics (mentioned above) two good games (The other two New England victories) and three duds (Baltimore / NY, Tampa / Oakland, and Pittsburgh / Seattle). The quality of playoff games (beyond superbowls) has been overall excellent. You just haven't been watching.

It has been NOTHING in comparision to the 80's/90's. Big, brutal games. You just don't see that anymore, since there's never enough talent density on any two single teams to make that happen. (It wasn't until this season that I stopped watching football).

Minor leagues are there to represent second-tier markets. That's always how it has been until recently, when the league has regulated itself. There are several major markets outside of the northeast. In fact, I think there are quite a few. The league would be a little smaller, but the games would be much better. The uppermost minor league would probably still be quite good -- Certainly much better than NCAA, which is the league that most non-major-markets are so attached to anyway. What aside from the amount of support (money, buzz, etc) a market can give to its team should decide whether that market deserves an NFL team? Please tell me, because that seems to me like the only equitable way to conduct a league.

But, as I said, it's going to take some kind of major falling-out in order for this more natural, more competitive league model to materialize. In the meantime, I'm not going to watch football. Simple enough. I'm not requiring you to do the same.
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post #15 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel

It has been NOTHING in comparision to the 80's/90's.

Big brutal games? Which ones? Most of them were blowouts...

http://www.superbowl.com/history/recaps

I guess I just don't buy the argument teams from the past were more talented than teams now. It's an age-old argument that has been argued for decades and in all professional sports.

I'm sure Art Monk and Joe Theismann were good in their respective days. But I'd put their teams against the salary capped 2006 Bears defense any day of the week. (Well, actually only on Sundays or Monday nights...)
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post #16 of 51
What the heck are you talking about? The 80's and 90's featured many huge blowouts which weren't compelling games at all. It did also produce a few excellent games, but as I've pointed out, that has also happened recently.

If you look back through superbowl history, roughly half of the games aren't competetive, and it's been that way since Superbowl I. You're romanticizing the past.
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post #17 of 51
I think now I can say that it's clear that we look for different things: you look for drama, I look for compelling performances. These days, when you have both, you're not watching football.
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post #18 of 51
What about talent?
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post #19 of 51
I'm sorry, but I strenuously feel there IS both.
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post #20 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

Wait a minute! I forgot. We're talking to a Philly fan here.

There's no point trying to appease SDW. It's embedded in their blood to be pissed off about something on their sports teams...


hahaha. True. But really, I think I'm being pretty reasoned here. If you obectively look at the mistakes that have been made over the years, it becomes clear.

And I say again: I like Andy Reid. He's a great guy. He knows a lot about football to say the least.

But think about the mistakes that shouldn't be happening. Consecutive false starts? Absurdly shitty clock management? Over conservative play calling? Maybe half a dozen games over 3 years where the team just didn't "show up?" Blown leads? I think a lot of this comes back to Reid. If you're willing to just let him go and keep hoping things get better, maybe you're the "philly sports fan" type!
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post #21 of 51
Haha, I'm a Sacramento Kings fan. I know all about being pissed off.

The thing about being in California, most fans here are very forgiving. Midwest and East Coast fans aren't like that. They're for the most part extremely knowledgable (sometimes too knowledgable), and will be the first to point out imperfections rather than positive contributions. But then again, when you're cooped up in cold weather for half the year, there's nothing to do other than boil over at your teams...
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post #22 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

Haha, I'm a Sacramento Kings fan. I know all about being pissed off.

The thing about being in California, most fans here are very forgiving. Midwest and East Coast fans aren't like that. They're for the most part extremely knowledgable (sometimes too knowledgable), and will be the first to point out imperfections rather than positive contributions. But then again, when you're cooped up in cold weather for half the year, there's nothing to do other than boil over at your teams...

I'm actually not even mad in all seriousness. I'm just coming to a conclusion based on the facts I see.
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post #23 of 51
Well, fuck, I am.

Goddamn Kings, SF Giants, and Niners...
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post #24 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

Well, fuck, I am.

Goddamn Kings, SF Giants, and Niners...

Yeah, not so good!
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post #25 of 51
Raiders, Warriors..... (just to rub it in)
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post #26 of 51
Thread Starter 
Anyone watching the game? Reid isn't calling plays...again...and they're down to the fucking Titans 24-6. McNabb is out with a knee injury and no update.

Despite last week's win, I repeat my call for Reid to go. It's not bittnerness or anger or freaking out. They suck. Penalities, dropped balls, missed tackles, the head coach as relinquished play calling. It's unacceptable in the NFL, especially with all the talent this team actually has.
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post #27 of 51
How Bout 'dem Niners????!?!?!?!

Woooooo!!!!!
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post #28 of 51
eh, I think the Eagles talent on defense is over-rated. They're aging, have had injuries and free agency losses and it shows.
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post #29 of 51
Thread Starter 
Well...another week, another pathetic loss. They gave up 200 yds rushing for christ's sake.

Reid must go. Now.
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post #30 of 51
Your whole team must go...
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post #31 of 51
#1 - A run stuffing DT or two. These lightweight guys may be athletic and good at rushing the passer, but they are getting eaten alive by the opponent's OL week after week.

#2 - A power back who can close games and punch it in from short yardage. Passing on 1st and Goal from the 2? Please! Westbrook is one of the better all purpose backs in the NFL right now, but he can't keep the chains moving and the clock running when opponents are expecting the run.

#3 - Somebody who can teach the defense how to tackle!!

As for getting rid of Reid, I can't decide if this year's woes are a result of poor coaching, key injuries (McNabb, The Freak, etc.) or a tired team with 'worn out' players. Reid has been one of the few consistent winning coaches so far this decade, it'd be hard for management to boot him without back to back poor seasons, with McNabb in the lineup.

In the Colts game, I was glad the offense kept it respectable until the defense folded for good that last Colt drive and that lucky strip of Garcia. At least they were able to move the ball well and score with Garcia running the O, which was something I was worried about.
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post #32 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster

#1 - A run stuffing DT or two. These lightweight guys may be athletic and good at rushing the passer, but they are getting eaten alive by the opponent's OL week after week.

#2 - A power back who can close games and punch it in from short yardage. Passing on 1st and Goal from the 2? Please! Westbrook is one of the better all purpose backs in the NFL right now, but he can't keep the chains moving and the clock running when opponents are expecting the run.

#3 - Somebody who can teach the defense how to tackle!!

As for getting rid of Reid, I can't decide if this year's woes are a result of poor coaching, key injuries (McNabb, The Freak, etc.) or a tired team with 'worn out' players. Reid has been one of the few consistent winning coaches so far this decade, it'd be hard for management to boot him without back to back poor seasons, with McNabb in the lineup.

In the Colts game, I was glad the offense kept it respectable until the defense folded for good that last Colt drive and that lucky strip of Garcia. At least they were able to move the ball well and score with Garcia running the O, which was something I was worried about.


Look, I like the guy too...but really. Remember 4 years ago when they started 0-2 ? Remember three losses in the NFC championship? The Super Bowl that they should have won? Consecutive false starts? Dropped passes and missed tackles? Not being emotionally ready to play?

If this was only the second year of this stuff, I'd agree with you. But even when the team has been better, this stuff has still been happening. Think about the clock management in the Super Bowl. That was ALL Andy Reid. Now look at the Garcia decision. Why in the hell would he be put in? He's old and certainly won't be the guy for camp next year, so why play him? Put the younger guy in and let him develop a bit.

As for what they need:

1. A new head coach and defensive coodinator
2. A healthy MNabb
3. A power back
4. Bigger D-line
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post #33 of 51
SDW, isn't the third guy in line AJ Feely, a former Eagle retread? There's nothing to develop, IMO.
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post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001

Look, I like the guy too...but really. Remember 4 years ago when they started 0-2 ? Remember three losses in the NFC championship? The Super Bowl that they should have won? Consecutive false starts? Dropped passes and missed tackles? Not being emotionally ready to play?

If this was only the second year of this stuff, I'd agree with you. But even when the team has been better, this stuff has still been happening. Think about the clock management in the Super Bowl. That was ALL Andy Reid. Now look at the Garcia decision. Why in the hell would he be put in? He's old and certainly won't be the guy for camp next year, so why play him? Put the younger guy in and let him develop a bit.

I agree with you on the inconsistencies of the team, but what I meant was that until he starts consistently having losing seasons with otherwise healthy teams, or never makes it back to the Big Show, it will be hard for the management to admit they were wrong and fire him.

As for the QB's, behind Garcia is A. J. Feeley (meh) and some rookie that was a walk on, IIRC.
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post #35 of 51
You've been kinda quiet SDW since you've gone on a little winning streak. Has your approval rating gone up in the last few weeks? He's been calling some pretty good game plans as of late...
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post #36 of 51
ZOMG when they run the ball they win games!

 

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post #37 of 51
Coaching Coaching Coaching.

Just look at the New Orleans Saints. Sean Payton came in an cleaned house with staff and players. 90% of the team is average at best, especially defense.

However, I strongly believe that coaching makes the difference. Those guys believe in the coaching staff and put it on the line for them when they play and it shows.

No different in Philly. Reid is a good guy, but I dont see the team going out there and willing to die for this guy. And I don't see him motivating them in any way on the sidelines either. \

Dallas, well they just enjoy loosing right now. I don't see Philly going deep in the playoffs anytime soon.
post #38 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by trailmaster308 View Post

Coaching Coaching Coaching.

Just look at the New Orleans Saints. Sean Payton came in an cleaned house with staff and players. 90% of the team is average at best, especially defense.

However, I strongly believe that coaching makes the difference. Those guys believe in the coaching staff and put it on the line for them when they play and it shows.

No different in Philly. Reid is a good guy, but I dont see the team going out there and willing to die for this guy. And I don't see him motivating them in any way on the sidelines either. \

Dallas, well they just enjoy loosing right now. I don't see Philly going deep in the playoffs anytime soon.

I think Payton has shown himself to be a real good coach thus far, but I think you're perhaps giving him a bit too much credit. Talent matters, and the Saints added LOTS of talent during the off-season. The upgrade of Brees over Brooks simply cannot be overstated. Brooks started out promising but regressed into a god awful quarterback. Reggie Bush, although it took a good half a season before you started seeing him make some big plays, dictates the defense on almost every play he's out there. AND they struck gold nabbing what may be the best receiver from the '06 draft in the seventh round. On defense, they revamped their terrible linebacker group with not anything special, but competent players. I've got to say, the NO coaching staff has done an excellent job getting the most out of a defensive group that isn't particularly talented.

This is not a knock on Payton at all. I'm just saying that their offensive talent is most definitely a fair amount above average. You've seen time and time again over the history of the league how the addition of one or two elite players (Bush in this case) combined with a couple upper echelon players (Brees and Colston) and not having any glaring liabilities (covered up fairly well on defense) can completely turn a franchise around. Favre in 92 and White in 94 to the packers comes to mind.

Does Payton have GM duties as well, or do they have a separate GM? If he's the GM too, well he does deserve a ton of credit.

Sideline motivation by a coach is way over-rated IMO. Big rah rah coaches (Tom Coughlin for example) invariably wind up losing control over their teams.
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post #39 of 51
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Originally Posted by trailmaster308 View Post

Coaching Coaching Coaching.

Just look at the New Orleans Saints. Sean Payton came in an cleaned house with staff and players. 90% of the team is average at best, especially defense.

However, I strongly believe that coaching makes the difference. Those guys believe in the coaching staff and put it on the line for them when they play and it shows.

No different in Philly. Reid is a good guy, but I dont see the team going out there and willing to die for this guy. And I don't see him motivating them in any way on the sidelines either. \

Dallas, well they just enjoy loosing right now. I don't see Philly going deep in the playoffs anytime soon.

Come on...

This is coming from a guy who lives in Lousiana. You are a bit too bias. Of course the Saints defense is average. They win because they have the #1 offense in the NFL. If they didn't have Brees they wouldn't have over 5 or 6 wins. Payton's cleaning house was not the difference. Drew Brees was. Quarterbacks are key, not coaches. Ask Nick Saban. The Dolphins would be a completely different team with a healthy Dante Culpepper. As for Saints, they have played an easy schedule, and it shows because if you look at their wins, the only two quality wins have come against Dallas and Philly. I wouldn't even call the Philly win quality because 9 weeks ago they were fuckin' terrible. Just read above or ask S-Dee-Dub.

The Saints record is deceiving. It's a feel good story, yes, but it probably won't be a happy ending. They do have a chance to get to the Superbowl since the NFC is so weak. But any team could fuckin' make it there. Arizona would have a goddamn chance if they were allowed into the playoffs. Now, back to the topic.

I'm sorry, but if the Eagles make the Superbowl again, I don't want to hear a goddamn word about Andy Reid. I'm sick of hearing how much of a boob he is when year after year his team is in the playoffs, much less usually in the NFC Championship game. I can think of 24 other teams that would love to be in the position where the Eagles are. If it takes poor clock management, the Garcia decision, consecutive false starts, to make it the playoffs every year, where the fuck do I sign up?

EDIT: Damnit Flounder you beat me to it!
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post #40 of 51
Everybody knows Philly ain't winning any championship 'cause of Billy Penn.
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