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iPod Shuffle (gen2): bent clip! - Page 2

post #41 of 107
Why are so many of you douche bags? To anyone who isn't a complete moron it's obviously a flaw in the design. If they used something like titanium for the clip parts we wouldn't be having this one-sided ignoramus discussion.
post #42 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecking

If it really bends that easily then the new shuffle is f**ed up, it should be designed to handle every day usage which includes human movement. No one should defend apple on this. Cell phones and all kinds of other small gadgets are meant to take regular abuse so why shouldn't an ipod?

amen.

i always drop my cell phones and they look and work great.

ipods are just too delicate and need to withstand more regular abuse. it's not stupidity or obesity. it's a design flaw. it's just fragile.

and the dock... apple should have included a mini usb port. now his ipod is useless unless he fixes the clip or he gets a new synching solution.
post #43 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewmmc

If you carried a knife, pen, pencil, whatever in your pocket, something might go wrong if you sit down!!!!

The other objects you mentioned are long and thin. A tiny, nearly square object shouldn't have the same level of forces. I would understand the comparison if you were referring to the 1st Gen shuffle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iconsumer

i'm skinny and i know that when i sit with my keys in my front jeans pocket...they bend too

You've bent keys in your pocket? How does that happen? I've never seen or heard of that. It's certainly not happened to me in the fifteen years I've been carrying keys in my pocket. Keys are thicker, but they are longer too.

I'll grant that this may be staged thing though, given where it was bent, if you try to force the clip open too far, that's probably where it would bend. I'm trying to figure out how I can sit down with a clipped shuffle and have the clip open too far.
post #44 of 107
Aluminium is a soft metal. It might not have been a good choice for making a clip. Maybe they should have made the edges curl over to give the clip more ridgidity.
post #45 of 107
I'd still want one because I could wear it in other places, and it's the best small mp3 player that I know of. But I think Apple could of done it more different (in a better way.)
post #46 of 107
Some of you all would stick up for apple and jobs if there was video tape of steve clearly beating a baby to death with a hammer.

This is a bad design if that happens when someone sits down. And if that does happen then Apple should have NEVER put someone wearing it like that in their advertising campaign. Just shows that not enough quality control went into the product before it's release. If you think that everyone is going to treat their ipod like it is an egg, then you are un-realistic. Sh*t like this is just going to give apple products a bad name... something they don't need with Microsoft looking over their shoulder in the portable digital music player department.
post #47 of 107




2G iPod shuffle drawing

Based on these figures (dimensions) and my calculations (sigma = 20 ksi) it takes about 3 pounds of force applied normal to the end of the clip to initiate (yield) bending as shown by the affected shuffle owner (assuming the clip bottoms out in it's maximum opened position via bearing against the top of the shuffle body). That would be a uniform force across the entire width, if non-uniform, the force necessary to initiate bending would be less than this!

THREE POUNDS!

Apple made the clip very thin (~0.75 mm), yet have two huge "snaggleteeth" of aluminum, that could have been used more effectively to stiffen the clip plate, regardless, a design that creates an unintended mechanical advantage, allows the plate to "bottom out" is a very poor design, IMHO.

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #48 of 107
could it be there is coin(s) in ur pocket? just a thought...

post #49 of 107
No coin needed. My pager does the same thing as above. It gets snagged on stuff and gets over bent.
post #50 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by praseodym

Sure, aluminum bends. But isn't it a bit of a design flaw that it's possible to do that under normal usage conditions (I'm very cautious with my stuff and this was the first time it fell down)? A possible solution would've been to allow the clip to open more, so that the hinge 'absorbs' the energy which would otherwise be put in bending the clip.

And to reply to others, I wasn't wearing a belt and I'm certainly not overweight (and don't live in the USA either).

Besides that, any suggestions in repairing it nicely? The hinge seems to be very fragile as well and applying any pressure to the whole shuffle, e.g. by using a vice, will make the round part (where the headphone jack is located) lose its shape.

I firmly believe it is a) due to poor design, b) a poor example of use (in the ad), and c) poor judgement by the user.

I ran my own company manufacturing infra-red heat processing systems for industrial processes, before retiring, and always used aluminium in various forms - for reflectors or various other heat dissipation uses.

Aluminium is a good dissipator of heat and is the reason it is used in heat sinks for cooling electronics or components, but it has poor mechanical strength. If the body had instead been made of steel, it would have to have been made considerably larger to achieve sufficient cooling efficiency. Alternatively, if the clip itself had been made of steel, to have greater resistance to bending, it is not a good idea to use dissimilar metals together in this way.

Although aluminium has very poor structural strength, there are a number of very hard grades that could be used instead. I believe the simplest solution is for Apple to increase the thickness of the clip, combined with the hardest possible aluminium specification, with possibly a lateral indentation for extra stiffness. Increasing the thickness of the clip would not really be detrimental to the appearance of the Shuffle.

As for clipping the Shuffle to the change pocket as shown in the example by Apple, to most people with manufacturing experience, common sense would tell you this is a bad idea, as the combination of the weak aluminium and the mechanical forces when bending or sitting down are likely to cause damage. On the other hand, many users would not think of the possible consequences when they see an advert by Apple showing it worn this way. Finally, although it may be possible to straighten the clip to a certain extent, it is unlikely to become completely staright again, and the straightening forces are likely to create permanent stress cracking in the bend area. IMHO I believe Apple should redesign it and replace your Shuffle and anyone else's which gets bent, it's definitely a design fault.
post #51 of 107
It's also funny that Steve Jobs clipped his shuffle onto his jeans and sat down to do his iTunes demos at the 'Show Time' event.
post #52 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by deanbar

I firmly believe it is a) due to poor design, b) a poor example of use (in the ad), and c) poor judgement by the user.

I ran my own company manufacturing infra-red heat processing systems for industrial processes, before retiring, and always used aluminium in various forms - for reflectors or various other heat dissipation uses.

Aluminium is a good dissipator of heat and is the reason it is used in heat sinks for cooling electronics or components, but it has poor mechanical strength. If the body had instead been made of steel, it would have to have been made considerably larger to achieve sufficient cooling efficiency. Alternatively, if the clip itself had been made of steel, to have greater resistance to bending, it is not a good idea to use dissimilar metals together in this way.

Although aluminium has very poor structural strength, there are a number of very hard grades that could be used instead. I believe the simplest solution is for Apple to increase the thickness of the clip, combined with the hardest possible aluminium specification, with possibly a lateral indentation for extra stiffness. Increasing the thickness of the clip would not really be detrimental to the appearance of the Shuffle.

As for clipping the Shuffle to the change pocket as shown in the example by Apple, to most people with manufacturing experience, common sense would tell you this is a bad idea, as the combination of the weak aluminium and the mechanical forces when bending or sitting down are likely to cause damage. On the other hand, many users would not think of the possible consequences when they see an advert by Apple showing it worn this way. Finally, although it may be possible to straighten the clip to a certain extent, it is unlikely to become completely staright again, and the straightening forces are likely to create permanent stress cracking in the bend area. IMHO I believe Apple should redesign it and replace your Shuffle and anyone else's which gets bent, it's definitely a design fault.



I don't think so!

6000 series (35 ksi yield), 7000 series (60-100 ksi yield).

7000 series (typically 80 ksi yield) is widely used in the aircraft industry, 5000 series (35 ksi yield) is widely used in the marine industry, any application where weight AND cost are important, in those situations it's tough to beat aluminum! Not by high strength titanium, not by high strength SS, and not by high strength FRP. Strength per dollar and strength per pound. It's important to remember that it's the specific strength (strength divided by density) and specific modulus (modulus divided by density) of any material, if weight is a central issue. After that it's a matter of cost.

Stress cracking isn't an issue provided it hasn't exceeded it's plastic limit. I'm guessing Apple used something similar to 3003 aluminum (but if it was made in China, who knows), that's usually cheaper than other aluminums.

A redesign would seem to be in order, if this situation occurs with any reasonable frequency of occurrence.

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
post #53 of 107
Yes, sorry to hear about your unfortune, (misfortune I mean) Nobody would like the clip to have bent so easily.... Seems so unlikely...!!

...But this gives me another reason not to get a Shuffle or Nano. They're too small to be usable now - including the nano... I'm going to go for a run soon and I'm confident my SonyEricsson (32MB [yes, that's only 32MB]) v600i is not going to bend as it sits/rubs around a bit in my shorts. Plus if I nearly collapse from a lung failure or two I might have enough strength to dial 911 and mutter a few words on where to find me.
post #54 of 107
How are people sitting down these days? Do they just fling themselves down on furniture? Or is it another case of obesity prevalence in America? I've put my nano in my change pocket for over a year now with no incidences and since the new shuffle is smaller, you'd think that there would be less room for bending. I could be wrong, but I would have to agree that this is another incident that can be attributed to operator error. If you are bending your body and the iPod is placed right where you bend, you might want to move it or protect it. This is technology, not a toy made from Mattel.
post #55 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by zedrac

I don't understand how it bent in that direction. Did you have the clip facing the same direction as in the ad? If that's the case, it should've bent the other way.


.... and my nano does not give off that neon glow from its wheel
post #56 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM


You've bent keys in your pocket? How does that happen? I've never seen or heard of that. It's certainly not happened to me in the fifteen years I've been carrying keys in my pocket. Keys are thicker, but they are longer too.

yes longer so easier to apply pressure and bend them, i have a stack of keys, the flat type, and maybe my jeans are a bit tight?? but thats only after lunch
post #57 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthbullet

could it be there is coin(s) in ur pocket? just a thought...

Fifthbullet

Nice illustrations. And it is possible that a coin lodged in the clip and caused the problem.

However, also picture the following. And since I don't have the time to draw them out, perhaps you could.

1. The user was wearing low-rise jeans. Thus the Shuffle wasn't sitting above the bend as per your illustration, but perhaps right in the middle of it.

2. Perhaps he wasn't wearing low-rise jeans, but he wore them low anyway. Same possibility.

3. The wearer just didn't sit down, but leaned forward, causing even more pressure on the clip as the angle decreased.

4. Compound the above recognizing that most jeans are worn very tight. Most people never use the watch pocket. Most people that put things in their watch pocket can't get them out again. Ask their spouses or mothers. And when they do get whatever they put in there, it is usually unrecognizable afterwards.

5. Compound the above picture using a 250 lb beer bellier stuffed in a size 32 crack-up-the-back levis, jamming a matchbook in his watch pocket and leaning over to tie his shoes.

I personally lean (no pun intended) toward the picture of man clipping his Shuffle into the watch pocket of a very tight fitting pair of jeans, which when he sat down put pressure on the the Shuffle in an upward direction. However, because of the tightness of the pocket, the Shuffle couldn't move in the direction in which it was being forced. And if he was like most of us, he compounded the scenario whenever he leaned forward.

And for those of you who can't abide with my postulation, put on your favorite jeans. While standing, stuff two fingers, three if you can, in you watch pocket and sit down, preferably quickly. Oh! And don't forget to lean forward. Better yet, stuff your fingers in someone else's pocket.
post #58 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core

Fifthbullet
And for those of you who can't abide with my postulation, put on your favorite jeans. While standing, stuff two fingers, three if you can, in you watch pocket and sit down, preferably quickly. Oh! And don't forget to lean forward. Better yet, stuff your fingers in someone else's pocket.

I certainly can't "abide" by such a silly comparison unless you have micro-fingers. The comparison you try to make here is outright flawed because you aren't comparing objects of a similar size or shape.
post #59 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by iconsumer

.... and my nano does not give off that neon glow from its wheel

ROFLMAO!! Damn... I thought it would do that in the dark... and I was so looking to take my Nano to the next rave. Maybe I'll see the neon streaks if I drop acid or somethin'
post #60 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

I certainly can't "abide" by such a silly comparison unless you have micro-fingers. The comparison you try to make here is outright flawed because you aren't comparing objects of a similar size or shape.

He just wants you to stuff your fingers down your pants... Or someone elses pants. Awwww yeah.................
post #61 of 107
good, apple needs to learn to stop ripping the customer off. We all have fallen that apple is this hip, down to earth guys, but they are just as bad as microsoft. I rather buy some cheapy china made mp3 player that does the same crap as a ipod of like half the price like them on http://www.mp4nation.com or a archos, now thats a multimedia machine.

Hope iPods go iBust.
post #62 of 107
This doesn't make sense. It would seem the clip would bend the other way. I think it must have been in his back pocket, and it opened up as he sat down to get it bent this way.

Here's what I mean by the clip would've bent the other way:

post #63 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton

Here's what I mean by the clip would've bent the other way:


Man that is some awesome Modern Art. The guy in it looks kinda fat or something. With a belly like that you'd be bending a whole lot of things in your pocket. The nano wouldn't last a day.
post #64 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by mortthewiz

good, apple needs to learn to stop ripping the customer off. We all have fallen that apple is this hip, down to earth guys, but they are just as bad as microsoft. I rather buy some cheapy china made mp3 player that does the same crap as a ipod of like half the price like them on http://www.mp4nation.com or a archos, now thats a multimedia machine....Hope iPods go iBust.

Yeah like a Creative Zen or Archos. Whatever floats your boat, I guess... This clip-bending is weird though. I smell a class-action lawsuit brewing.
post #65 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman

Yeah like a Creative Zen or Archos. Whatever floats your boat, I guess... This clip-bending is weird though. I smell a class-action lawsuit brewing.

That's his first post, he probably just joined to say that.

I've two previos iPods, and have had no problems with them.
post #66 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman

He just wants you to stuff your fingers down your pants... Or someone elses pants. Awwww yeah.................

Stuffing fingers down someone else's pants. Mmmmm, lawsuit.
post #67 of 107
OK, for all those people who say it's a design flaw and should be made stronger:

Think about this. What if it were stronger? What if it didn't bend? What would happen?

If it didn't bend, it would remain stiff, and dig into whatever was putting pressure on it, i.e., the guy's flesh.

So instead of bending (giving way) it would force itself into the guy's flesh and cause who knows what kind of damage. I think having it bend is a safety issue; it's designed well.
post #68 of 107
Thread Starter 
It's almost certain the iPod fell because the clip bent (over-opened), and had no reason to stay clipped to my pocket. If the hinge was made so that the clip could be opened all the way, it'd have just fallen out and not put any strength on the clip - which means no damage to anything (except for impact on the ground, which it resisted pretty well).
post #69 of 107
Why is this a story - so you broke your shuffle - big deal. Plenty of people break valuable equipment that they own every day - but surely we don' t have to suffer another round of why didn't they think of this that and the other.

Bottom line look after your stuff better. I find it hard to believe the clip bent as easily as you say it bent and it wont bend back.
post #70 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by psilopsyche

Why are so many of you douche bags? To anyone who isn't a complete moron it's obviously a flaw in the design. If they used something like titanium for the clip parts we wouldn't be having this one-sided ignoramus discussion.

Really? It just looks like he's over bent it. ie. user error. Stick something in your pocket, sit down, and you'll bend it as you bend. It's not rocket science.

The problem here comes because they've used a material which is easy taken past the point where plastic deformation occurs.

Steel would be a better choice for the clip than titanium. Titanium is only about twice as stiff as Aluminium and it deforms too easily still. Steel on the other hand is twice as stiff as Titanium (ie 4 times as stiff as aluminium) and easier to machine plus has a wide elastic range so springs back into shape well.

Both would be heavier and more expensive of course since you can't extrude Titanium or Steel as easily as aluminium or hydroform them.

Some plastics would actually be better than aluminium too but of course Apple would be accused as being cheap and then you'd get the 'I scratched my iPod' whingers instead.

A stainless steel shuffle would be quite cool though.
post #71 of 107
What ever happened to common sense?
post #72 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent


6000 series (35 ksi yield), 7000 series (60-100 ksi yield).

I'm not sure where you got those figures from but they look wrong to me coming from a bicycle materials background. There's not much difference between 6061-T6 and 7005-T6 for instance, the two most commonly used aluminium alloys used in bicycles which both have around 40-42 kpsi. The choice usually comes down to manufacturing processes and geography rather than a materials choice. USA = 6061, Taiwan = 7005 since 6061 is more labour intensive and requires more post welding work.

There's also some nice 6000 series alloys. For instance 6069 has a 55-71 kpsi yield after T6 and still offers 20-25% elongation as opposed to 10-13% for other aluminiums. It's almost approaching Titanium levels but without the weight penalty.

That'd probably be more apt for Apple here as the clip would have bent and sprung back into shape instead of permanently deforming.

The other nice alloy is 2014-T6 which beats most of the 6 and 7 series alloys but is a bitch to work with. Typically, it's only used for handlebars as making a bike out of it is brutal.

And then there's the Scandium alloys. Mmmm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent

7000 series (typically 80 ksi yield) is widely used in the aircraft industry, 5000 series (35 ksi yield) is widely used in the marine industry, any application where weight AND cost are important, in those situations it's tough to beat aluminum! Not by high strength titanium, not by high strength SS, and not by high strength FRP. Strength per dollar and strength per pound. It's important to remember that it's the specific strength (strength divided by density) and specific modulus (modulus divided by density) of any material, if weight is a central issue. After that it's a matter of cost.

Yup. There's much more to it than just material strength and the choice here is obviously manufacturing. There's some some aluminium sausage machine in China squeezing out n shuffles a second out of it's die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent

Stress cracking isn't an issue provided it hasn't exceeded it's plastic limit. I'm guessing Apple used something similar to 3003 aluminum (but if it was made in China, who knows), that's usually cheaper than other aluminums.

China is almost entirely 7005. I wonder though if Apple heat treats the clip though as there's quite a difference between unheat treated and treated and with some alloys you've also got to age the alloy post processing. ie. it gets stronger if you leave it a month.


Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent

A redesign would seem to be in order, if this situation occurs with any reasonable frequency of occurrence.


A nice steel spring clip perhaps then they could have done away with the hinge entirely though it may not have looked so pretty.

Or people could just be more careful, or is that not so obvious?
post #73 of 107
Are you suggesting that I'm going to have to be personally responsible for taking care of my toys? Will I be unable to blame Apple for my mistakes?

What will I do? How will I survive?

sjt
post #74 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjtryon

What will I do? How will I survive?


There's always bubble wrap.
post #75 of 107
Well since you can't dock it any more, you may want to check out this.
post #76 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign

Titanium is only about twice as stiff as Aluminium and it deforms too easily still. Steel on the other hand is twice as stiff as Titanium (ie 4 times as stiff as aluminium) and easier to machine plus has a wide elastic range so springs back into shape well.

Actually... It's much much stiffer than even T6 aluminum. The Shuffle's probably made from T0, not very tough. A tougher aluminum like T3 would be better. The higher the T rating, the higher the percentage of titanium in the aluminum. Titanium is amazingly hard to bend, much harder than steel at the same thickness. (Aircraft engineer speaking)
post #77 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg

Actually... It's much much stiffer than even T6 aluminum. The Shuffle's probably made from T0, not very tough. A tougher aluminum like T3 would be better. The higher the T rating, the higher the percentage of titanium in the aluminum. Titanium is amazingly hard to bend, much harder than steel at the same thickness. (Aircraft engineer speaking)

I'm going to ask which aircraft company you work for because you're freaking me out now and I don't want to be on one of your planes.

Tn refers to the level of post processing - ie heat treatment, aging, tempering and working after a structure is produced to restore the strength lost through welding usually.

There's NO Titanium in any commercial aluminium alloys I've come across such as 6061, 7005, 7075, 2014 etc. If you know one then let me know as it sounds like a cool alloy and we'll knock up a bike frame with it.

Titanium alloy on the other hand is usually an alloy containing Aluminium and Vanadium, usually 3Al/2.5V or 6Al/4V. Commercially pure Titanium is rarely used as it's weaker than the alloys just as pure Aluminium isn't either or Pure Iron either. The n000 series numbers indicate the metals it's alloyed with such as Magnesium, Zinc, Copper...

Titanium has a Youngs Modulus that's about half that of steel - ie. it's twice as easy to bend at the same thickness. You have to use more of it to get the same stiffness. It's about 60% as dense as steel though so you can get away with using more of it but it's almost as strong as lower grade steel so often you don't need to if you don't mind a bit more flex. Often that's desirable in a bicycle frame so you can end up with something as strong as steel but weighing 40% less and nice and comfy. Bitch to weld though.
post #78 of 107
I think the Aircraft Industry uses somewhat different (and higher quality) aluminum alloys than the stuff that goes into bikes. They have to throw away aluminum that's passed it's 1~2 year expiry date, even when it's been kept in a sealed environment. I'm in the UK, maybe we use a different system for naming the types of aluminum.
post #79 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikertwin

So instead of bending (giving way) it would force itself into the guy's flesh and cause who knows what kind of damage. I think having it bend is a safety issue; it's designed well.

Unless you've stuffed a knife down your pocket I don't think hard metal things will cause serious harm to one's flesh. Uncomfortable when you have a mobile phone press against your stomach, or a bag of coins, or a big wallet with a lot of hard credit/ ATM/ other cards in it, but damaging flesh, I don't think so. You could probably implant a Shuffle under your skin around your lower belly area without causing too much damage. I'm no surgeon, but iMHO, my two cents.... said two cents pressing against my belly right now.
post #80 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikertwin

OK, for all those people who say it's a design flaw and should be made stronger:

Think about this. What if it were stronger? What if it didn't bend? What would happen?

If it didn't bend, it would remain stiff, and dig into whatever was putting pressure on it, i.e., the guy's flesh.

So instead of bending (giving way) it would force itself into the guy's flesh and cause who knows what kind of damage. I think having it bend is a safety issue; it's designed well.

If you are not being serious I think this is the best post so far.
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