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iPod Shuffle (gen2): bent clip! - Page 3

post #81 of 107
11/8/06 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg

I think the Aircraft Industry uses somewhat different (and higher quality) aluminum alloys than the stuff that goes into bikes. They have to throw away aluminum that's passed it's 1~2 year expiry date, even when it's been kept in a sealed environment. I'm in the UK, maybe we use a different system for naming the types of aluminum.

I'm in the UK too. We don't use different names for different types or the Tn treatment schemes anymore. There's a very old naming scheme but it's years old and doesn't even name some of the alloys now in use. eg. 6061 (not 6061-T6) was H20 in the UK.

And no, the aircraft industry uses the exact same alloys and often of lesser quality. They can use a lot more of it so it's less critical than in say a bicycle handlebar weighing 130g that your face depends on or a 200g seatpost that's pointing up your arse.

My favourite design of late using aluminium in a really special way was the Ibis Ripley by John Castellano - He's an aircraft engineer btw - which uses the properties of 6069 to provide a pivotless flexible suspension strut in flat plate aluminium. Like an aircraft wing, it flexes up and down which is something some materials ignoramuses just don't get.

http://www.castellanodesigns.com/tech.html


Anyway, straying off topic somewhat.
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post #82 of 107
11/8/06 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandau

crap, i hit mine with a hammer, i'm going to sue apple, its mushed and the click ring fell off. talk about bad design. I knew I should have bought the FP3 player instead!!

http://www.fisher-price.com/fp.aspx?...0&e=fp3landing

You're going to sue over a $79 shuffle? Get real. If you hit any electronic device with a hammer, you might as well put the hammer to your head next.

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post #83 of 107
11/8/06 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

You're going to sue over a $79 shuffle? Get real. If you hit any electronic device with a hammer, you might as well put the hammer to your head next.

I don't think you got the sarcasm of that post
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post #84 of 107
11/8/06 at 5:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman

I don't think you got the sarcasm of that post

Sorry, I guess you're right... (sheepish grin)

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post #85 of 107
11/8/06 at 5:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign

I'm not sure where you got those figures from but they look wrong to me coming from a bicycle materials background. There's not much difference between 6061-T6 and 7005-T6 for instance, the two most commonly used aluminium alloys used in bicycles which both have around 40-42 kpsi. The choice usually comes down to manufacturing processes and geography rather than a materials choice. USA = 6061, Taiwan = 7005 since 6061 is more labour intensive and requires more post welding work.

There's also some nice 6000 series alloys. For instance 6069 has a 55-71 kpsi yield after T6 and still offers 20-25% elongation as opposed to 10-13% for other aluminiums. It's almost approaching Titanium levels but without the weight penalty.

That'd probably be more apt for Apple here as the clip would have bent and sprung back into shape instead of permanently deforming.

The other nice alloy is 2014-T6 which beats most of the 6 and 7 series alloys but is a bitch to work with. Typically, it's only used for handlebars as making a bike out of it is brutal.

And then there's the Scandium alloys. Mmmm.



Yup. There's much more to it than just material strength and the choice here is obviously manufacturing. There's some some aluminium sausage machine in China squeezing out n shuffles a second out of it's die.



China is almost entirely 7005. I wonder though if Apple heat treats the clip though as there's quite a difference between unheat treated and treated and with some alloys you've also got to age the alloy post processing. ie. it gets stronger if you leave it a month.




A nice steel spring clip perhaps then they could have done away with the hinge entirely though it may not have looked so pretty.

Or people could just be more careful, or is that not so obvious?



I was just throwing out some numbers off the top of my head, based on some work I've done recently, comparing high strength aluminum/titanium/stainless steel/FRP. You can go to the Alcan, Alcoa, or Corus websites for datasheets on aluminum, there are many other databases, MatWeb, military databases for metals/FRP/materials, etcetera. When I stated those numbers I was thinking 6061-T6 for 6000 series, and 7075-T6 for 7000 series, and Kaiser 7068 aluminum currently tops the list at 99 ksi yield, obviously with STA and HT alloy metals there are literally hundreds/thousands of choices for design. BTW, I had to use some 7075-T6 in a recent design.

The friction stir process (or friction stir welding) allows the high strength 7000 series to be used quite effectively in situations where it is normally rivited (e. g. airplanes), since all other welding techniques weaken the material in the weld area and high strength 7000 series can't be welded via the other welding methods due to it's poor weld characteristics via these conventional weld methods, whereas FSW has a softening factor ~1 across the weld (in fatigue design), FSW is also very dimensionally stable (e. g. doesn't warp the material).

BTW, you're elongation numbers seem a bit high? SOP is to take the yield strength divided by the modulus (both in same units such as ksi), to get allowable elongation (in percent), metals are typically ~1% or less (roughly).

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #86 of 107
11/8/06 at 6:08pm
Ah, don't you looove AppleInsider? One guy complains about a bent Shuffle clip, and we go into modelling a whole range of scenarios on how it could have happened, some people go F**K APPLE TO HELL WITH IPODS, and some people go deep deep deep into hardcore intense Material Science. All alongside the "you're an idiot" posts.
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post #87 of 107
11/8/06 at 6:08pm
Less than 100 posts to 6,000. AWWW Yeahhhhh.
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post #88 of 107
11/8/06 at 6:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman

Ah, don't you looove AppleInsider? One guy complains about a bent Shuffle clip, and we go into modelling a whole range of scenarios on how it could have happened, some people go F**K APPLE TO HELL WITH IPODS, and some people go deep deep deep into hardcore intense Material Science. All alongside the "you're an idiot" posts.

Don't you mean the "Your an idiot" posts... the misspelled ones...?

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post #89 of 107
11/8/06 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

Don't you mean the "Your an idiot" posts... the misspelled ones...?

Heh.
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post #90 of 107
11/8/06 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunilraman

Ah, don't you looove AppleInsider? One guy complains about a bent Shuffle clip, and we go into modelling a whole range of scenarios on how it could have happened, some people go F**K APPLE TO HELL WITH IPODS, and some people go deep deep deep into hardcore intense Material Science. All alongside the "you're an idiot" posts.

F**K APELL TO HELL WITH Ipods!!!111ONE!!!!
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post #91 of 107
11/8/06 at 7:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich

Don't you mean the "Your an idiot" posts... the misspelled ones...?

hehe i love appleinsider.
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post #92 of 107
11/8/06 at 9:05pm
force required to open the clip all the way up to the stop is ~ 1 lb.
the failure as described in the picture requires that you apply ~ 10 lb of force. 10x times!!!

it's easy to blame design for your own stupidity and carelessness.

just accept that the clip caught onto your pocket and you stupidly tried to yank on it.

if your car is locked and you apply 10x times the normal operating force on the door handle, it'll break off. do you blame car maker calling it a poor design?? or is it your own carelessness?

you cannot get the clip to fail by dropping it on groung either. come on, get real. half an ounce falling free over a meter??? not enough punch to even cause a serious dent.

if you want to advertise your USB connector, please do so. do not mislead others...

shuffle is beautifully designed and truly amazing.
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post #93 of 107
11/8/06 at 9:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kapC

force required to open the clip all the way up to the stop is ~ 1 lb.
the failure as described in the picture requires that you apply ~ 10 lb of force. 10x times!!!

it's easy to blame design for your own stupidity and carelessness.

just accept that the clip caught onto your pocket and you stupidly tried to yank on it.

if your car is locked and you apply 10x times the normal operating force on the door handle, it'll break off. do you blame car maker calling it a poor design?? or is it your own carelessness?

you cannot get the clip to fail by dropping it on groung either. come on, get real. half an ounce falling free over a meter??? not enough punch to even cause a serious dent.

if you want to advertise your USB connector, please do so. do not mislead others...

shuffle is beautifully designed and truly amazing.



The point is that the failure point is within easy reach, ~ 5 lbs, as opposed to your example, yes you can fail anything, if enough force is applied! But in you're example, I don't think most people could fail their car door as this would take several hundred pounds of force, you don't think that car designers don't think of some allowable situations that would cause forces above what would be expected in normal usage? Point is, Apple didn't. Allowing 90 (or so) degrees of clip rotation before the stop limit would have been very easy for Apple to do, they didn't, therefore it's a design flaw!

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #94 of 107
11/8/06 at 11:15pm
Arghghghg don't make me go out and get a Shuffle just to test all your hypotheses!!!!!1111!!!!! I was supposed to NOT BUY ANYTHING APPLE these next two months..... Don't tempt me, you evil hell-sent tempters of those with good credit...!!!! arghgghhggghgghghhg

Actually, I propose a PayPal fund set up where I will buy a Shuffle and then perform various agreed-upon tests and document it fully for all to see. Excellent, I'll go work on setting up a PayPal donation thingy. Heh. 8)
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post #95 of 107
11/8/06 at 11:24pm
Edit: We'll see if I can wrangle the PayPal thing. It's so darn complicated Anyway, was just an idea.
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post #96 of 107
11/9/06 at 5:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

I certainly can't "abide" by such a silly comparison unless you have micro-fingers. The comparison you try to make here is outright flawed because you aren't comparing objects of a similar size or shape.

It wasn't a comparison. It was to help demonstrate the pressure that can be created under the conditions I had previously described.
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post #97 of 107
11/9/06 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg

I think the Aircraft Industry uses somewhat different (and higher quality) aluminum alloys than the stuff that goes into bikes. They have to throw away aluminum that's passed it's 1~2 year expiry date, even when it's been kept in a sealed environment. I'm in the UK, maybe we use a different system for naming the types of aluminum.

nar there isnt a different way of grading aluminium, but the stuff that goes into bike frames is some of the strongest you can get. high end bikes have to use good quality materials to deal with the high stresses. i mean, on the extreme end of things, 30-50 foot drops can be what these bikes are designed to eat for breakfast, no jokes.
"i find that if you keep talkin', your mouth comes up with stuff..." Karl Pilkington
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"i find that if you keep talkin', your mouth comes up with stuff..." Karl Pilkington
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post #98 of 107
11/9/06 at 5:25pm
I had a closer look at the iPod Shuffle gen2, albeit through a glass window. That clip part seems quite thin. Just a mention.
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post #99 of 107
11/9/06 at 11:36pm
well, 1st gen shuffle had no clip and it was wonderful.

what happens if you buy a 2nd gen shuffle and just remove the damn flimsy clip before it bends and makes you scream "ah damnit apple stupid cheapo ipod chihuahua!! "????

can you still sync to itunes with the dock without the clip?????
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post #100 of 107
11/9/06 at 11:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elijahg

I think the Aircraft Industry uses somewhat different (and higher quality) aluminum alloys than the stuff that goes into bikes. They have to throw away aluminum that's passed it's 1~2 year expiry date, even when it's been kept in a sealed environment. I'm in the UK, maybe we use a different system for naming the types of aluminum.

This reminds me of I conversation I once had with someone who worked in the aircraft industry.... If I remember correctly it went something like this:

Me: "What's the difference between aircraft aluminum and regular aluminum?"
Him: "Aircraft aluminum is on an Airplane."

As far as I know, there's absolutely no difference between "aircraft aluminum" and commercial aluminum.
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post #101 of 107
12/28/06 at 8:45am
I too have bent my iPod Shuffle clip in exactly the same manner. However, I have found a way to get it to fit into the dock. You can find my pictures on my blog at TychoUnder.com/blog:
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post #102 of 107
12/28/06 at 8:51am
More pictures on
Tycho Under

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post #103 of 107
12/28/06 at 3:33pm
Thread Starter 
I actually got my Shuffle back in the dock, after tooling around a bit. It still looked messy but the clip was nearly flat again. Of course I wasn't satisfied, so I called Apple. Since this happened only days after the Shuffle arrived I could return it as DOA, no further questions asked. I got my money back (I was supposed to get a replacement, but their administration messed up) and bought a Nano instead.

Of course you'll want to know what I did to get it fit in the dock. It's actually quite easy: first of all, get a flat surface (not too soft, so that the metal can't damage it). Put the Shuffle on the table, open the clip, and apply pressure on the outer sides of the clip. By opening the clip you prevent the metal around the hinge from bending (which did happen to mine when I impulsively tried to bend it back, because all the pressure you apply will go directly to the metal around the hinge).

And by the way, your pictures look really similar to mine (bent exactly the same way).
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post #104 of 107
1/23/07 at 10:06am
i just wanted to chime in because when i saw those pictures i could see that they were bent in exactly the same way as mine. Sadly i bent mine today and although it wasn't exactly my fault (i was moving out of the way to let someone past in the gym and it caught on the door) i'm not blaming Apple for this - and i certainly didn't drop it. However this doesn't help me as i can't dock my iPod (i just bought on of those iPod Bud things).

It would be nice if there was some way of repairing it - but i can't even see how you would open this thing? And if Apple did start taking repairs what are the odds you'd just get a replacement as i'm sure these things cannot be opened. Problem is at £55 would there be any repair service cheap enough to undertake this anyway?

Yes those bends pictured are obviously the result of the same stresses mine went under - and in the same direction (bend goes up straight and then veers off to the right).
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post #105 of 107
1/25/07 at 5:48am
Orson, don't try to open it up. I have some pictures of what I used to fix it. (see also tychounder.com/blog)
It involved a block of wood and a butter knife.

Set the Shuffle face up on the wood, with the bent clip sitting on the wood. Put the butter knife behind between the clip and the body of the Shuffle right over the bend. Apply pressure to the knife until the clip straightens out.

This way you are applying evenly distributed pressure just to the metal clip.

As you can see from the pictures, the clip is bent back to fit within the dock.

P.S. I bought the shuffleBud, but my laptop complains about a USB device overload if I'm not on AC power.





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post #106 of 107
10/14/08 at 7:05am
bending the clip is not easy.

that said, clip it to your hat. Just quit headbutting everything.
:-D * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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:-D * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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post #107 of 107
11/26/08 at 3:19am
Spam trash - sod off.
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