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Don't Believe In Evolution? Read This. - Page 4

post #121 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

dmz: you're being snotty again.

My point is that that the citation and bit from the abstract you provided (which appears on the Discovery Institute's talking points where you seem to have gotten your list of cites) as examples of "the controversy" within the peer-reviewed literature of the scientific community don't actually work. When you look at the actual article, the quote on DI's site is by no stretch of the imagination representative of what the article is actually about, which is proposing a new way to attempt to understand evolutionary processes.

(Edited several times to try to make this statement English)

Who said it was more -- or less -- than what it said? Ah yes, you did.

The citation 'is what it is.'

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #122 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Who said it was more -- or less -- than what it said? Ah yes, you did.

The citation 'is what it is.'

Indeed, it is. But it is not evidence of a "controversy," as DI claims.
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post #123 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

Indeed, it is. But it is not evidence of a "controversy," as DI claims.

DI posted on this thread? -- I must have missed that.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #124 of 522
Thread Starter 
...or Urine Therapy. Ecccch!

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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GOA

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post #125 of 522
Quote:
DI posted on this thread? -- I must have missed that.

That is your counter-argument? Why do you even bother posting?
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post #126 of 522
One more thing -- just in case "DI" posts again when I'm not looking.

...here is what ShawnJ posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ

Two points:

1. Speciation is macroevolution.

...

...and here is what dmz posted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

...and speciation is not macorevolution -- the jump from micro- to macro- has yet to occur (which was the point of posting those periodical citations.)

The whole topic of that jump is controversial within the ...

...now, as to what is a "controversy" I'll leave for others -- perhaps this "DI" poster can fill you in. Nevertheless, to say that "micro- is macro-" is just not accurate, and to insinuate that the matter of how to jump micro- to macro- is in any way settled is misinformed.

(and maybe even snotty)

edit:

just saw your post, groverat -- hmm... I can say that one of the reasons I post isn't for heaving tired, content-deprived, attempts to get a rise out of people. (unless it's laughter)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #127 of 522
Do you actually have any kind of argument or insight to offer in this discussion?
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post #128 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz


...and a little cutting and pasting of my own:

And here's your sourcefrom the Discovery Institute: "The Scientific Controversy Over Whether Microevolution Can Account for Macroevolution." (PDF)

Again, as I have pointed out, this PDF grossly misrepresents the subject of the very first article on the list.
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post #129 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

And here's your source—from the Discovery Institute: "The Scientific Controversy Over Whether Microevolution Can Account for Macroevolution." (PDF)

Again, as I have pointed out, this PDF grossly misrepresents the subject of the very first article on the list.

When you want to be a big boy, and acknowledge the point that ShawnJ and I were talking about, let me know, and we can carry this further.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #130 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

When you want to be a big boy, and admit the point that ShawnJ and I were talking about, let me know, and we can carry this further.

Jeez you get cranky when it's late. And no, thank you, I'm wholly uninterested in engaging in a discussion about micro vs macro-evolution with a bunch of people who use the Merriam-Webster dictionary to define their terms and who, so far as I can tell, are neither biologists nor experts in evolutionary theory. There is no point, really, once you admit that no one engaged in the discussion actually knows anything about what they're talking.

I'd be surprised, actually, if anyone other than me here has read On the Origin of Species cover to cover.

My point is simply that you tossed off a bunch of citations that looked all impressive and seemed to imply controversy, and then, when I Google your source and then check the actual articles, they grossly misrepresent the sources.
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post #131 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

...of people who use the Merriam-Webster dictionary to define their terms...

I'd be surprised, actually, if anyone other than me here has read On the Origin of Species cover to cover.

My point is simply that you tossed off a bunch of citations that looked all impressive and seemed to imply controversy, and then, when I Google your source and then check the actual articles, they grossly misrepresent the sources.

The definition in the MW dictionary is Ernst Mayr's

...ready any time you are.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #132 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

...ready any time you are.

For what? More cutting and pasting from websites that misrepresent the contents of articles? More squabbling over definitions? No thanks.

I had one point. I made it . . . although I'm curious to hear how you respond to it.
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post #133 of 522
Using Merriam-Webster as a definition source for scientific terminology with actual scientific sources are available is fairly amusing, it is an overt effort to keep the discussion at a very low intellectual level.

I've read On the Origin of Species.
I've also read: Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe, What Evolution Is by Ernst Mayr, The Blind Watchmaker & The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. I've listened to lectures on biological evolution produced by The Teaching Company (recorded lectures from universities). I've also read many other science books that deal, in part, with evolution.

I am no master, but neither am I a complete fool or ignorant of the basic principles. It is insulting to the intelligence of those involved to assume that no one has any idea what they are talking about.

I would actually love some discussion of content and merit. However, dmz pulls quotes out of context and makes half-assed assertions with absolutely no backup or logic, and when his logic is challenged he ignores the meat and focuses on semantic gripes and side issues.
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post #134 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

Using Merriam-Webster as a definition source for scientific terminology with actual scientific sources are available is fairly amusing, it is an overt effort to keep the discussion at a very low intellectual level.

Which is a problem when you are dealing with a complex subject.

Quote:
I've read On the Origin of Species.
I've also read: Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe, What Evolution Is by Ernst Mayr, The Blind Watchmaker & The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. I've listened to lectures on biological evolution produced by The Teaching Company (recorded lectures from universities). I've also read many other science books that deal, in part, with evolution.

Great! Ain't Darwin's Origin utterly weird?! Every time I read it, I can't help but peg him as a stepping stone between English Romantics communing with God through nature and the Victorians who desired progress as any costs.

Quote:
I am no master, but neither am I a complete fool or ignorant of the basic principles. It is insulting to the intelligence of those involved to assume that no one has any idea what they are talking about.

Then my sincere apologies if I have offended. But I wonder whether you are the exception, and not the rule with regard to my point.

Quote:
I would actually love some discussion of content and merit. However, dmz pulls quotes out of context and makes half-assed assertions with absolutely no backup or logic, and when his logic is challenged he ignores the meat and focuses on semantic gripes and side issues.

Indeed, I'd like to hear dmz's response to my question above.
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post #135 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

For what? More cutting and pasting from websites that misrepresent the contents of articles? More squabbling over definitions? No thanks.

I had one point. I made it . . . although I'm curious to hear how you respond to it.

No you didn't, you are, one more time, simply ignoring what you don't want in the discussion. I posted above, in my own words, what the reasons were for posting those quotes. The citations clearly show the differences when micro and macro evolution are discussed. Clearly.

You ignored the post and harped about DI 'grossly misrepresenting'. A criticism that is as irrelevant as it is false.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #136 of 522
Do you have any kind of argument that stems from this semantic quibble, dmz, or are you merely throwing up more chaff as the air-to-air missiles continue to chase you?

midwinter:

Darwin's writings are actually amazing in their intuitiveness given the circumstances he found himself in. Very very weird, though, yes.
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post #137 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

No you didn't, you are, one more time, simply ignoring what you don't want in the discussion. I posted above, in my own words, what the reasons were for posting those quotes. The citations clearly show the differences when micro and macro evolution are discussed. Clearly.

You ignored the post and harped about DI 'grossly misrepresenting'. A criticism that is as irrelevant as it is false.

Why are my claims about DI's characterization (and by extension, yours) of Stern's argument "false"?
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post #138 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

midwinter:

Darwin's writings are actually amazing in their intuitiveness given the circumstances he found himself in. Very very weird, though, yes.

Well, I keep thinking that that intuitiveness is in many ways a by-product of his moment in history. What gets me when I read him is that Romantic notion of Nature as a kind of caretaker. Sure, he admits that Nature will sometimes kill individuals off, but it always has the best interests on the species at heart. Nature, for him, is this active participant, a kind of nanny looking over her charges and not some passive observer like the Deists had imagined God to be.
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post #139 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

Why are my claims about DI's characterization (and by extension, yours) of Stern's argument "false"?

Like I said, when you're ready to acknowledge why I posted the citations, we can carry this forward.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #140 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Like I said, when you're ready to acknowledge why I posted the citations, we can carry this forward.

That's a good question, dmz. Why did you post those citations? All you said was "a little cutting and pasting of my own."

Not much to go on there. I mean, look. You're perfectly free to get upset with me for not being able to read your mind and all, but you might consider that, when you consistently find yourself getting mad at me for not being able to somehow intuit what your point is when you don't or simply won't articulate it, maybe the fault isn't mine.

So why did you post those citations? And how do you respond to my charge that, when you read the first article they list, the DI misrepresents the point of the article?
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post #141 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Then, unfortunately, you're a bigot.

Fortunately, no he isn't.
post #142 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

That's a good question, dmz. Why did you post those citations? All you said was "a little cutting and pasting of my own."

Not much to go on there. I mean, look. You're perfectly free to get upset with me for not being able to read your mind and all, but you might consider that, when you consistently find yourself getting mad at me for not being able to somehow intuit what your point is when you don't or simply won't articulate it, maybe the fault isn't mine.

So why did you post those citations? And how do you respond to my charge that, when you read the first article they list, the DI misrepresents the point of the article?

I already told you why in posts #126 & #135.


....any time you're ready.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #143 of 522
This is ultimately the dumbest conversation one can have on any message board.

NO ONE is going to change their minds reading arguments on this or any other fora. Why? Because to change their minds some need god to tell them evolution explains speciation and the others need god to tell them that evolution doesn't happen. god ain't talkin' so give up.
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post #144 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

The citations clearly show the differences when micro and macro evolution are discussed. Clearly.

Quote:
=dmz]Nevertheless, to say that "micro- is macro-" is just not accurate, and to insinuate that the matter of how to jump micro- to macro- is in any way settled is misinformed.

These two? OK. It seems to be a debate between a few camps of scientists about what mechanisms are responsible for it, not whether it happens or not.
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post #145 of 522
one point that is possibly lost on dmz...

macro and microevolution depend on the definition of species as the crux of their separation. as species is a human made designation (and one derived solely from phenomenological, as opposed to biological, descriptors), the difference between the two is irrelevant...
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post #146 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

These two? OK. It seems to be a debate between a few camps of scientists about what mechanisms are responsible for it, not whether it happens or not.

Thank you.

**tilts head sideways**

Now was that so hard?!


From the frelling paper/article/whatever -- the paragraph following the citations...
Quote:
It should be noted that all of the scientists quoted above are believers in
Darwinian evolution, and that all of them think the controversy will eventually
be resolved within the framework of that theory. Stern, for example, believes
that new developmental studies of gene function will provide "the current
missing link." (p. 1079)
The important point here is that the controversy has not
yet been resolved, precisely because the evidence needed to resolve it is still
lacking. It is important for students to know what the evidence does or does not
show -- not just what some scientists hope the evidence will eventually show.
Only then can students be expected to "analyze, review, and critique scientific
explanations, including hypotheses and theories, as to their strengths and
weaknesses using scientific evidence and information." (TEKS §112.43c(3)A).

**puts on boots and runs to find cat**

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #147 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Thank you.

**tilts head sideways**

Now was that so hard?!

Yeah. Apparently it was.
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post #148 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Thank you.

**tilts head sideways**

Now was that so hard?!


From the frelling paper/article/whatever -- the paragraph following the citations...

And my point is that the only "controversy" is being made up by DI and people who quote from that page without reading the articles they're citing.

It's sort of like if I came home to my four cats and found a picture frame broken on the floor. If I said "I don't know how it got there, but probably a cat," DI would call that a controversy because I haven't established which cat it was.
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post #149 of 522
Fuck the cats!

It was the masked ninja that follows you around, always out of sight.
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post #150 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar

Fuck the cats!

It was the masked ninja that follows you around, always out of sight.

You always need to be on the lookout for ninjas. They can be very dangerous.
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post #151 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

And my point is that the only "controversy" is being made up by DI and people who quote from that page without reading the articles they're citing.

It's sort of like if I came home to my four cats and found a picture frame broken on the floor. If I said "I don't know how it got there, but probably a cat," DI would call that a controversy because I haven't established which cat it was.

That is a 'whole 'nother kitty pogrom.

The only thing I'm concerned about is running the two terms together, willy nilly. That's it. No more. Yes, they argue about how [some], no they don't disagree that it happened.

**goes for the extra point**

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #152 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

The only thing I'm concerned about is running the two terms together, willy nilly. That's it. No more. Yes, they argue about how [some], no they don't disagree that it happened.

OK.

So you agree that scientists typically agree that evolution happens.

You agree that scientists typically agree that micro/macro evolution happens somehow.

You agree that the science is trying to figure out how that bit of the puzzle happens.

You agree that that this discussion is not a "controversy" within the scientific community, despite what DI says.

You agree, also, that DI mischaracterized the discussion about micro/macro as a "controversy" when, in fact, there is not one.

Do I have that right?

Quote:
**goes for the extra point**

Steve Kerr you ain't.
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post #153 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

OK.

So you agree that scientists typically agree that evolution happens.

You agree that scientists typically agree that micro/macro evolution happens somehow.

You agree that the science is trying to figure out how that bit of the puzzle happens.

You agree that that this discussion is not a "controversy" within the scientific community, despite what DI says.

You agree, also, that DI mischaracterized the discussion about micro/macro as a "controversy" when, in fact, there is not one.

Do I have that right?



Steve Kerr you ain't.

Well, I would imagine they will argue about how to get from A to B -- and they probably will for some time. Does that constitute the great Achilles' heel? No. Is ID misrepresenting that? Ummmm... it wouldn't suprise me, but I don't think that is where they're headed.

(And even for Kerr the cats would still stick in the net.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #154 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Well, I would imagine they will argue about how to get from A to B -- and they probably will for some time. Does that constitutes the great Achilles' heel? No.

(And even for Kerr the cats would still stick in the net.)

Zeno's paradox notwithstanding, if you have agreed with everything I just wrote, what, precisely, is your argument here? Is it simply, as you said, you don't like for macro and micro to be confused?
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post #155 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

Zeno's paradox notwithstanding, if you have agreed with everything I just wrote, what, precisely, is your argument here? Is it simply, as you said, you don't like for macro and micro to be confused?

I think there is a significant technical hurdle going between micro and macro -- to demonstrate how that it could be done. But any way you look at it, there's a big difference.

Here is the thing: there is a huge difference in how plausible each side thinks this is. One one side, there is a belief that tide and time is all that is needed, on the other, it's all about 'ze information. So in a way each side is at sixes and sevens with how the other understands the world, philosophically speaking.

Like Iraq, I think being dismissive of the other side's philosophy, is a wrecking offense.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #156 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

I think there is a significant technical hurdle going between micro and macro -- to demonstrate how that it could be done. But any way you look at it, there's a big difference.

Considering that there is active discussion in the scientific community about this, no one would seem to disagree.

[qote]Here is the thing: there is a huge difference in how plausible each side thinks this is. One one side, there is a belief that tide and time is all that is needed, on the other, it's all about 'ze information. So in a way each side is at sixes and sevens with how the other understands the world, philosophically speaking.[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand the difference between these two camps you're describing, nor am I sure that I agree with this characterization of the state of things.

Quote:
Like Iraq, I think being dismissive of the other side's philosophy, is a wrecking offense.

Well, if the other side's philosophy is insane or patently wrong, that's not true. As someone who called into Diane Rehm the other day when Frum was on asked, (I paraphrase) "Frum has been so entirely wrong on everything he's ever espoused in terms of public policy that I wonder why it is I'm supposed to take anything he says on this show seriously."
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post #157 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

Considering that there is active discussion in the scientific community about this, no one would seem to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Here is the thing: there is a huge difference in how plausible each side thinks this is. One one side, there is a belief that tide and time is all that is needed, on the other, it's all about 'ze information. So in a way each side is at sixes and sevens with how the other understands the world, philosophically speaking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

I'm not sure I understand the difference between these two camps you're describing, nor am I sure that I agree with this characterization of the state of things.

Well, if the other side's philosophy is insane or patently wrong, that's not true. As someone who called into Diane Rehm the other day when Frum was on asked, (I paraphrase) "Frum has been so entirely wrong on everything he's ever espoused in terms of public policy that I wonder why it is I'm supposed to take anything he says on this show seriously."

No, not at all, philosophically speaking, even if the other guy is nuts, hold your friends close, and your enemies closer.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #158 of 522
Wait... I'm lost.

So you believe in evolution then dmz?
post #159 of 522
no- he's just talking to talk.
post #160 of 522
What I don't understand about people who believe micro-evolution happens but macro does not is if micro-evolution happens enough, the cumulative effects of micro- would end up being an instance of macro-evolution. I mean a land-animal introduced to a more aquatic ecosystem by some reason will start to micro-evolve features that better adapt them for that new system. After many generations offspring with more webbing between their digits will fare better at swimming and therefore escaping predators or finding food better than their less adapted kin. This adaptation never stops. There is no limit, unless IDers think that there is a limit being imposed by the supernatural.

I haven't read OotS but I have read other books on evolution by Stephen J Gould and Andrew Knoll among others that delved into all periods from the theories on the initial causes of life 4 billion years ago to how speciation occurs and how genetic mutations and natural selection are the vehicle driving life on Earth forward.
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