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Don't Believe In Evolution? Read This. - Page 12

post #441 of 522
1/4/07 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

That's because there are more things in heaven and earth, midwinter, than are dreampt of in your philosophy.

Yeah. Maybe you oughta read that "to be or not to be" speech again.
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post #442 of 522
1/4/07 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Well, if you are going to start channeling Stalin... at least get it right!

This is sort of like saying that since Hitler recognized the value of delivering an emotionally stirring speech, that deciding to use an emotionally stirring speech to further your goals makes you just like Hitler!!!11!1!!

Quote:
-what a minute, was the quote from a Smithsonian Institution email, or was it actually Stalin........

**checks**

..no, I was right, it's from Stalin.

That seems very disrespectful, mocking, and possibly even spiteful of you to say that. But I keep forgetting, such rhetorical methods are allowed for you, not for me.
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #443 of 522
1/4/07 at 10:08am
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Well of course they are, silly... you're a sinning heathen, he's one of the invisible unicorn's chosen ones. Jeez, get it right, will you?
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post #444 of 522
1/4/07 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

This is sort of like saying that since Hitler recognized the value of delivering an emotionally stirring speech, that deciding to use an emotionally stirring speech to further your goals makes you just like Hitler!!!11!1!!


That seems very disrespectful, mocking, and possibly even spiteful of you to say that. But I keep forgetting, such rhetorical methods are allowed for you, not for me.

...and I keep telling myself that the internet really can be used for subtlety, making points with a little ribbing, etc. ........did you miss the emoticon? (I know it says "tongue" but I'm not coming on to you.) It actually means to tease, chaff, fool, fun, jest, jive, joke, jolly, josh, kid, rag, razz, or even rib.

Now get out of here, and go crucify some nuns at the Party meeting, comrade.








laugh, dammit

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #445 of 522
1/5/07 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

laugh, dammit

at you or with you?
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post #446 of 522
1/5/07 at 3:36pm
dmz:

Quote:
But when poor groverat wants to take the Western prototypical God, and throw rocks at it -- as such? It's lousy form, if not protesting too much.

Is "lousy form" some kind of philosophical or theological code I am unfamiliar with, or are you just whining about how mean it is for me to make fun of your beliefs?

Quote:
But continually ripping someone who isn't supposed to exist is, well, 'kinda dumb.

The need to beat the hell out of god is evident, is it not? Our world is overrun by delusional people attempting to make law out of varied interpretations of Bronze Age voodoo books. We have Muslims blowing themselves and each other up. We have Christians keeping condoms away from Africans. Life is being lost in the name of these insane belief systems.

Respect for the religious beliefs of Muslims threatens many lives within the otherwise-englightened borders of Western Europe. And the beliefs also fuel regional feuds that take tens of thousands of lives every year in Africa and the Middle East.

Respect for the religious beliefs of Christians restricts the rights of law-abiding citizens in the United States and obligates school children to pledge allegiance to the Christian god.

You do not have to take any of these threats seriously, but the hundreds of thousands who die as a result of religious dogma every single year might feel differently as they either waste away from disease or are ripped apart by bomb blasts.

So tell me more about how it is rude of me to ridicule your delusional, childlike belief systems, dmz, the starving, diseased hordes of Africa cannot wait for your amusing wordplay.

Feel free to be cute, dmz, because it is all the worth your beliefs can provide anyone.
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post #447 of 522
1/5/07 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post

at you or with you?

I'm up for anything!

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #448 of 522
1/5/07 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

dmz:



Is "lousy form" some kind of philosophical or theological code I am unfamiliar with, or are you just whining about how mean it is for me to make fun of your beliefs?

I think it has more to do with not joining the 60% of Americans who hold internally inconsistent beliefs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

The need to beat the hell out of god is evident, is it not? Our world is overrun by delusional people attempting to make law out of varied interpretations of Bronze Age voodoo books. We have Muslims blowing themselves and each other up. We have Christians keeping condoms away from Africans. Life is being lost in the name of these insane belief systems.

Respect for the religious beliefs of Muslims threatens many lives within the otherwise-englightened borders of Western Europe. And the beliefs also fuel regional feuds that take tens of thousands of lives every year in Africa and the Middle East.

Respect for the religious beliefs of Christians restricts the rights of law-abiding citizens in the United States and obligates school children to pledge allegiance to the Christian god.

You do not have to take any of these threats seriously, but the hundreds of thousands who die as a result of religious dogma every single year might feel differently as they either waste away from disease or are ripped apart by bomb blasts.

So tell me more about how it is rude of me to ridicule your delusional, childlike belief systems, dmz, the starving, diseased hordes of Africa cannot wait for your amusing wordplay.

Feel free to be cute, dmz, because it is all the worth your beliefs can provide anyone.

You are equating suicide bombings with saying the pledge of allegiance; unless you are truly intolerant, those two things don't equate on any level. And you had to tell two mistruths to "make" your point.

Fact: "Africa" is not trouble because of anything the Roman Catholic church stands for -- "Africa" is in trouble because pagan cultures don't scale well (to say the least). Fact: anyone who wants to opt out of the pledge of allegiance can -- and many have -- since it was started (Ask the Jehovah's Witnesses.) Fact: Muslims have, as their highest example of personal behavior, a man who spent a good deal of his life dithering between calling people heretics and figuring out ways of killing/conquering/dominating them.

You are all over the road on this, there is no rational path, except to chisel an easy guilt-by-association justification for your "position?" I can't just take your word for it based on badly repeated myths and slurs. (That may fly with the underread, but not with me.)

Why don't you get you facts straight and take another pass at it? That shouldn't be too hard if your point is valid.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #449 of 522
1/5/07 at 5:36pm
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I"Africa" is in trouble because pagan cultures don't scale well (to say the least).

China seems to have scaled pretty well... What counts as pagan? Just Africa?

Africa is screwed as a direct result of colonialism, which was done by Christian powers.
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post #450 of 522
1/5/07 at 5:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

China seems to have scaled pretty well... What counts as pagan? Just Africa?

If you don't count the bodies, I guess it has. At present, they aren't borrowing ideologically from their past for their success. Also, how was China any differnet from any other ancient civilization, until it absorbed Western ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Africa is screwed as a direct result of colonialism, which was done by Christian powers.

That is a stretch, but still guilt-by-association. (a logical fallacy)

As an aside, how does colonialism have anything to to do with fertility rites, and rampant sexual promiscuity?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #451 of 522
1/5/07 at 6:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post


As an aside, how does colonialism have anything to to do with fertility rites, and rampant sexual promiscuity?

Ask the heavily Catholic areas of central and south America.
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post #452 of 522
1/5/07 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Ask the heavily Catholic areas of central and south America.

about fertility rites?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #453 of 522
1/5/07 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

about fertility rites?

Sure. And while you're at it, ask them about the relationship between colonialism and population growth. You might also ask them about AIDS.
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post #454 of 522
1/5/07 at 6:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Sure. And while you're at it, ask them about the relationship between colonialism and population growth. You might also ask them about AIDS.

You're not making very much sense. Edit: How does colonialism have anything to to do with fertility rites, and rampant sexual promiscuity?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #455 of 522
1/5/07 at 8:21pm
dmz:

Quote:
You are equating suicide bombings with saying the pledge of allegiance; unless you are truly intolerant, those two things don't equate on any level. And you had to tell two mistruths to "make" your point.

In what sense did I "equate" them?

They are both things that are wrong. There are varied degrees of morality, of course, but they are two things that is wrong.

Quote:
Fact: "Africa" is not trouble because of anything the Roman Catholic church stands for -- "Africa" is in trouble because pagan cultures don't scale well (to say the least).

So the Catholic doctrine of theological conquest has nothing to do with the spread of Catholicism within those nations currently dying in droves from preventable diseases?

I really do not understand how one fails to make the connection. Even the Catholic church itself is making the connection and re-thinking their policies.

Ignoring the connection between abstinence-only education and the spread of sexually-transmitted diseases goes beyond the reach of credulous skepticism.

Quote:
Fact: anyone who wants to opt out of the pledge of allegiance can -- and many have -- since it was started (Ask the Jehovah's Witnesses.)

I teach 8th graders. I had an 8th grader say that she didn't believe in god and she was harassed for weeks about it.

Quote:
Fact: Muslims have, as their highest example of personal behavior, a man who spent a good deal of his life dithering between calling people heretics and figuring out ways of killing/conquering/dominating them.

I am aware. I think you do not understand what I am arguing.

Quote:
You are all over the road on this, there is no rational path, except to chisel an easy guilt-by-association justification for your "position?" I can't just take your word for it based on badly repeated myths and slurs. (That may fly with the underread, but not with me.)

What is more rational than connecting the belief that eternal heaven awaits those who kill for their god to the actual act of killing for that god? What is irrational about it?

Quote:
How does colonialism have anything to to do with fertility rites, and rampant sexual promiscuity?

Are you aware of the Catholic church's sexual and reproduction policies.

1) Fertility "rites"
If there is one thing the Catholic church is known for it is fertility policy. Only very recently were women taught that they had an inherent right to not have children in massive numbers. I am not the smartest man in the history of the world, but I think there just might be a connection between telling women to breed as often as possible and the rise of population. I think babies come from pregnant mothers and that babies grow into adults who can then reproduce some more. There is math somewhere in there.

2) Sexual promiscuity
I have no information that sexual promiscuity is more rampant in African or Central/South America. I see no evidence from you aside from your desire to tap into some assumed sense of cultural superiority. We can only know what we are taught, and for those nations who are both devoid of modern progressive sexual education and inundated with the repressed sexual teachings of the Catholic would seem, logically, to be those most at risk for STD and population booms.
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post #456 of 522
1/5/07 at 8:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Edit: How does colonialism have anything to to do with fertility rites, and rampant sexual promiscuity?

You mean other than defining what is a "rite" (versus just normal innocuous behavior) and what is "promiscuous" (versus normal behavior)?
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post #457 of 522
1/5/07 at 8:38pm
To which I should add: this should be helpful.
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post #458 of 522
1/5/07 at 9:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

So the Catholic doctrine of theological conquest has nothing to do with the spread of Catholicism within those nations currently dying in droves from preventable diseases?

I really do not understand how one fails to make the connection. Even the Catholic church itself is making the connection and re-thinking their policies.

No groverat -- so the reason some countries are at a 33% HIV infection rate is that 33% of the population is Roman Catholic, and fornicating, all against Roman Catholic teachings? I thought the Pope exercised universal mind control on the dark continent.

Are you kidding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

We can only know what we are taught...

Well, then no one is guilty of any thing. Not Columbus, not Hitler, not Mother Theresa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

...and for those nations who are both devoid of modern progressive sexual education and inundated with the repressed sexual teachings of the Catholic would seem, logically, to be those most at risk for STD and population booms.

The UN has been more than a little busy, and so have the individual governments -- it's a local cultural problem. UNAIDS has the story.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #459 of 522
1/5/07 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

You mean other than defining what is a "rite" (versus just normal innocuous behavior) and what is "promiscuous" (versus normal behavior)?

It's a local cultural problem, and it's on a scale where infection resulting from 'innocuous behavior' is causing a humanitarian crisis -- if you have large enough number of sexual partners, eventually the odds get even.

I have to say I'm surprised when the "science" crowd can't do the math on this -- and invokes pop psychology -- blaming Columbus -- a joke of a line of reasoning. For heaven's sake, if you hate Christianity that bad, dispense with the "reasons" for your slurring -- just go for the easy Dawkinsesque' intellectual reelings.

The thinking Christians will be sitting back and considering untill someone finally burys all the bodies from the enlightened Athiest social experiments of the last century. Gosh, I think there might have some of that going on in Africa.








Anyway, like I said, UNAIDS has plenty to say on this. The combined efforts of the UN and the regional governments -- who are doing all they can to stop this -- aren't getting enough traction, and that doesn't involve Peter Botha commanding anyone to rampant promiscuity, or the East Indies company, or the Pope.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #460 of 522
1/5/07 at 9:35pm
It is pretty well established that "westernization" campaigns in Africa, first, and subsequently elsewhere gave rise to the HIV pandemic. Of course, the entrenched Catholic doctrine of no to all forms of contraception certainly lubricated the pole that much more...

So yes colonization of both Africa and central america are certainly to blame for much of the social cues that led to the current crisis...

There is a reason why HIV rates are lower in countries where the Church's doctrines are openly questioned...
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post #461 of 522
1/5/07 at 9:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

It is pretty well established that "westernization" campaigns in Africa, first, and subsequently elsewhere gave rise to the HIV pandemic. Of course, the entrenched Catholic doctrine of no to all forms of contraception certainly lubricated the pole that much more...

So yes colonization of both Africa and central america are certainly to blame for much of the social cues that led to the current crisis...

There is a reason why HIV rates are lower in countries where the Church's doctrines are openly questioned...

...wellll then, why don't you 'establish it' here in mauve and white?

I simply must see the anthropological magic act that can nullify thousands of years of cultural underpinnings. It's got to be good.

Hurry.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #462 of 522
1/5/07 at 10:03pm
dmz:

The connection between Catholicism's dogmas and their impact on the real world are quite interesting, actually.

The hundreds of millions of years of biological evolution that have led to this current state of existence has embedded within all of us a desire to mate. A very strong desire to mate. One might argue that this desire is the foundation of our entire civilization, of our entire economy. The desire to mate has certainly been used to forge alliances via arranged marriages, and to establish dominance via genocide and rape-repopulation. Sex is a tool we use to curry favor, to form family connections, to form interpersonal connections.

Therefore, sex drive is not something we are taught, it is something inherent to our condition. It cannot be easily driven (pardon the pun) out of us.

So strong is our inherent desire to mate, that even wearing a condom does not reduce sex drive (even though the explicit intellectual purpose of the condom is to prevent the normal process associated with sex).

Condoms, however, are an invention of man; a creation. Thus, we have no inherent understanding of condoms. We do not go through periods of great hormonal change because of condoms. We do not even know, for the most part, what condoms are even made of. Therefore, instruction as to the nature of condoms is highly convincing.

So, we have an inherent desire that is not easily impacted by any outside intellectual teaching. Then we have a man-made device whose nature is completely dependent on understandings provided by intellectual teaching. The result is alarmingly simple: The natural drive thrives and the teaching is accepted. In this case: Sex continues and condoms (or any other contraceptive) go completely unused. This is the perfect breeding ground for booming STD rates and populations.

And even more amazing, even the Catholic church has acknowledged this and is completely re-thinking their policy on contraceptives and sex education in those nations who have been so powerfully impacted by their religious dogmas.

Quote:
The UN has been more than a little busy, and so have the individual governments -- it's a local cultural problem. UNAIDS has the story.

What is the "local culture", pray tell?

Further, do you have any evidence at all that these cultures are more sexually promiscuous.

Quote:
For heaven's sake, if you hate Christianity that bad, dispense with the "reasons" for your slurring -- just go for the easy Dawkinsesque' intellectual reelings.

You have turned from the dancing monkey on the organ grinder's shoulder to the whining child, sniveling at his desk about how mean the other students are to him.

You generally have people pat you on the head and respect your delusional beliefs, but the rise of religious fundamentalism and the resulting rise in human suffering has awakened some of the sane to the dangers of willful ignorance and devotion to exclusive religious worldviews.

The good things to be had from religious beliefs can be had with secular moral philosophy. The bad things (and they are numerous) are not worth keeping around.

Your beliefs are an embarrassing joke in the modern world. You strap the Bronze Age to your back and expect respect for it, and a very small (but growing) number of people are simply unwilling to comply with that request.
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post #463 of 522
1/5/07 at 10:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

...wellll then, why don't you 'establish it' here in mauve and white?

I simply must see the anthropological magic act that can nullify thousands of years of cultural underpinnings. It's got to be good.

Hurry.

Sites like http://www.thuto.org/ubh/bw/bhp13.htm (search for spread, keeping going... there trucking routes) attest enough to the evidence that the development of roads and building projects in Africa (and subsequently elsewhere) increased the spread of HIV due to the centralization of a large and diverse migratory populations (the spread goes hand in hand with unprotected sex with prostitutes or other similar sex workers (hence the need for condoms -- verboten by Catholics), however in this case the roads and projects proceeded the sex act...) for completion of the projects.

Regardless, this is THE WAY HIV spread in africa and subsequently elsewhere. While rich westerners with condoms were flying around the world fucking like bunnies and slowly spreading HIV, poor africans and poor central americans were fucking like bunnies WITHOUT condoms since that there Catholic church didn't much like it and rapidly, devastatingly spreading HIV...

Given Fucking like bunnies as a natural inclination of entities that are animals -- the Catholic stance of no contraception... well you see...
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post #464 of 522
1/5/07 at 10:21pm
And we certainly aren't talking about an old mistaken policy of the catholic church:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3176982.stm


2003. Still fucking with people's lives for the sake of their religion.
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post #465 of 522
1/5/07 at 10:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

dmz:

The connection between Catholicism's dogmas and their impact on the real world are quite interesting, actually.

The hundreds of millions of years of biological evolution that have led to this current state of existence has embedded within all of us a desire to mate. A very strong desire to mate. One might argue that this desire is the foundation of our entire civilization, of our entire economy. The desire to mate has certainly been used to forge alliances via arranged marriages, and to establish dominance via genocide and rape-repopulation. Sex is a tool we use to curry favor, to form family connections, to form interpersonal connections.

Therefore, sex drive is not something we are taught, it is something inherent to our condition. It cannot be easily driven (pardon the pun) out of us.

So strong is our inherent desire to mate, that even wearing a condom does not reduce sex drive (even though the explicit intellectual purpose of the condom is to prevent the normal process associated with sex).

Condoms, however, are an invention of man; a creation. Thus, we have no inherent understanding of condoms. We do not go through periods of great hormonal change because of condoms. We do not even know, for the most part, what condoms are even made of. Therefore, instruction as to the nature of condoms is highly convincing.

So, we have an inherent desire that is not easily impacted by any outside intellectual teaching. Then we have a man-made device whose nature is completely dependent on understandings provided by intellectual teaching. The result is alarmingly simple: The natural drive thrives and the teaching is accepted. In this case: Sex continues and condoms (or any other contraceptive) go completely unused. This is the perfect breeding ground for booming STD rates and populations.

And even more amazing, even the Catholic church has acknowledged this and is completely re-thinking their policy on contraceptives and sex education in those nations who have been so powerfully impacted by their religious dogmas.



What is the "local culture", pray tell?

Further, do you have any evidence at all that these cultures are more sexually promiscuous.



You have turned from the dancing monkey on the organ grinder's shoulder to the whining child, sniveling at his desk about how mean the other students are to him.

You generally have people pat you on the head and respect your delusional beliefs, but the rise of religious fundamentalism and the resulting rise in human suffering has awakened some of the sane to the dangers of willful ignorance and devotion to exclusive religious worldviews.

The good things to be had from religious beliefs can be had with secular moral philosophy. The bad things (and they are numerous) are not worth keeping around.

Your beliefs are an embarrassing joke in the modern world. You strap the Bronze Age to your back and expect respect for it, and a very small (but growing) number of people are simply unwilling to comply with that request.

Until you can defend your original statement, that the Roman Catholic Church is notably culpable/complicit for the AIDS epidemic in Africa, I'd hang it up until you can.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #466 of 522
1/5/07 at 11:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Sites like http://www.thuto.org/ubh/bw/bhp13.htm (search for spread, keeping going... there trucking routes) attest enough to the evidence that the development of roads and building projects in Africa (and subsequently elsewhere) increased the spread of HIV due to the centralization of a large and diverse migratory populations (the spread goes hand in hand with unprotected sex with prostitutes or other similar sex workers (hence the need for condoms -- verboten by Catholics), however in this case the roads and projects proceeded the sex act...) for completion of the projects.

Regardless, this is THE WAY HIV spread in africa and subsequently elsewhere. While rich westerners with condoms were flying around the world fucking like bunnies and slowly spreading HIV, poor africans and poor central americans were fucking like bunnies WITHOUT condoms since that there Catholic church didn't much like it and rapidly, devastatingly spreading HIV...

Given Fucking like bunnies as a natural inclination of entities that are animals -- the Catholic stance of no contraception... well you see...

Don't bother posting links to make your argument for you -- at least summarize your point here.

Fornication is forbidden, as is prostitution, by the Catholic Church; which either has mind control or it doesn't. As for how building roads figures in this -- you're groping.

Then you wrap it up with...
Quote:
how westerners with condoms were flying around the world fucking like bunnies

...once again, you guys in the "science" crowd need to stop and do the math on what levels of fornication it takes to infect 33% of a population. (hint: it's more than in the West)

You need to get your facts straight.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #467 of 522
1/6/07 at 1:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

(hint: it's more than in the West)

No, in fact it isn't... dmz, ignoring intravenous drug use (which is rampant in urban areas):

30 years of epidemic.
25% infection at worst on national level in some countries in Africa.
10-13 years of potential infection before you die if it is untreated. Lets say 10.
We will ignore transmittance to children since they likely die young anyway.
Let's assume for simplicity that 70% of partners get infected (this folds in increasingly likely encounters with people who already have HIV -- although it does this poorly).

Lets say that there are 100 million people of whom 25% have HIV...
We start the ball rolling with 1 person who is infected.

Infected people= 1*exp((.7* number of partners each year-1/10)*30))
(the above is a standard model used by epidemiologists)
So on average using this rough model, each infected person is suspected to have had less than 1 partner a year (about 1) for the course of their life while infected (10 years)...

So dmz, are they really having more sex than westerners?

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/News...=156921&page=1

Nope.

Take your bullshit and shove it.
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post #468 of 522
1/6/07 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

No, in fact it isn't... dmz, ignoring intravenous drug use (which is rampant in urban areas):

30 years of epidemic.
25% infection at worst on national level in some countries in Africa.
10-13 years of potential infection before you die if it is untreated. Lets say 10.
We will ignore transmittance to children since they likely die young anyway.
Let's assume for simplicity that 70% of partners get infected (this folds in increasingly likely encounters with people who already have HIV -- although it does this poorly).

Lets say that there are 100 million people of whom 25% have HIV...
We start the ball rolling with 1 person who is infected.

Infected people= 1*exp((.7* number of partners each year-1/10)*30))
(the above is a standard model used by epidemiologists)
So on average using this rough model, each infected person is suspected to have had less than 1 partner a year (about 1) for the course of their life while infected (10 years)...

So dmz, are they really having more sex than westerners?

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/News...=156921&page=1

Nope.

Take your bullshit and shove it.

Sorry, hardeeharhar, we're going to have to stick to the facts. Imagining "each infected person is suspected to have had less than 1 partner a year" is not representative of Africa's culture at the moment. Nowhere near.

(Disclaimer: some of this list will use the 'Judges Jones' technique of argument)
  • In many African countries, adultery is considered a "female crime".
  • In Botswana the tribal courts treat adultery as a female crime only, suggesting that men can continue to have multiple partners, thereby increasing HIV risk for women.
  • Condom use is often associated with promiscuity. It is thus difficult for a woman to suggest to a man that he wears a condom because she might not trust the partner or it may be interpreted that she does not trust the partner.
  • In many parts of Africa, there are no effective legal provisions for women to inherit land and assets from their deceased husbands, often leaving widows destitute. This exacerbates the downward spiral into poverty that makes women and children even more vulnerable to infection.
  • Remember the rumor of the "virgin cure" that sent male AIDS patients in South Africa on the hunt for younger and younger girls to rape? It had (or has) the highest rate of rape in the World.
  • Let's not forget the prevalence of war in Africa, and the patterns of promiscuity and rape among soldiers.
  • Swaziland’s HIV infection rate is at 33%
  • There are many, many, many, other social factors that make HIV in Africa a hideous problem.
Fact: polygamy, promiscuity, adultery, etc., are institutionalized in many African countries.
Fact: Women's rights are abysmal in many African countries.
Fact: This is not the case in the west. Nowhere near the case.




Fact: None of this has anything to do with what the Roman Catholic Church stands for.

So hardeeharhar, like I told midwinter, (and this goes for groverat, too): If you hate the Church (Christians, whatever) that badly, why don't you dispense with your "reasons" for hating, and just be a forthright bigot?

Who do you think you're fooling?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #469 of 522
1/6/07 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Sorry, hardeeharhar, we're going to have to stick to the facts. Imagining "each infected person is suspected to have had less than 1 partner a year" is not representative of Africa's culture at the moment. Nowhere near.

No, dmz. I calculated using the rate of spread of HIV from one individual to 25 million (the total currently infected in sub-Saharan africa) over 30 years the number of partners Africans are expected to have for this to occur.

I proved, mathematically that you are wrong.

Do you understand this?

Can you understand this?

I feel sorry for your children if you don't and can't because you are going to be unable to teach them math.

You asked me to do the math, I did the math and the number is 1 partner/year.

Addendum:

I found some more numbers to plug into the equation to get a better model... Transmission rate with single contacts average about 1% and the epidemic in africa has been ongoing for 50 years...

This gives 24 sexual contacts per year (note this is NOT partners, these new data only allow me to consider contacts -- oral, anal, vaginal, aural all considered together...).

Note also that transmission with needles is significantly higher... However, 24 contacts/partner on average seems about right...
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post #470 of 522
1/6/07 at 10:43am
I'm particularly fond of the way this thread talks about "Africa's culture."
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #471 of 522
1/6/07 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

You asked me to do the math, I did the math and the number is 1 partner/year.

Well, whatever you do, don't tell the folks over at UNAIDS. They're under the impression that promiscuity and institutionalized adultery might be a problem.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #472 of 522
1/6/07 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

I'm particularly fond of the way this thread talks about "Africa's culture."

I think we've been pretty good at keeping Africa in quotes, and using the adjective 'many' when referring to countries. Let's not overgeneralize.

(Except when talking about the Roman Catholics -- we all know what they're up to, and why.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #473 of 522
1/6/07 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Well, whatever you do, don't tell the folks over at UNAIDS. They're under the impression that promiscuity and institutionalized adultery might be a problem.

No, dmz.

UNAIDS, like any organization that has studied the spread of HIV in depth, realizes there are a few ways of slowing the pandemic. Reducing unprotected sexual contract is THE way regardless of where. In the US we have succeeded in slowing the progression by encouraging condom use...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #474 of 522
1/6/07 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

No, dmz.

UNAIDS, like any organization that has studied the spread of HIV in depth, realizes there are a few ways of slowing the pandemic. Reducing unprotected sexual contract is THE way regardless of where. In the US we have succeeded in slowing the progression by encouraging condom use...

You need to spin that on someone who can't tell the difference between a culture with institutionalized adultery, and a culture without that feature. In any event, you do get points for consistently and completely denying the problem's moral component, and substituting a political [read technical] solution; after all we're just highly conditioned machines.

Amazing.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #475 of 522
1/6/07 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

You need to spin that on someone who can't tell the difference between a culture with institutionalized adultery, and a culture without that feature. In any event, you do get points for consistently and completely denying the problem's moral component, and substituting a political [read technical] solution; after all we're just highly conditioned machines.

Amazing.

dmz, prove that institutionalized adultery is a cultural aspect of all sub-saharan africa.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #476 of 522
1/6/07 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

dmz, prove that institutionalized adultery is a cultural aspect of all sub-saharan africa.

That's the kind of answer that has made this profoundly fascinating.

(and the following goes for all you lovely lefties)
Rather than declare institutionalized adultery 'wrong' you're willing philosophically cut off your nose to spite your face. Willing to accept the body count of only mitigating the behavior rather than to working at all to stigmatize it, human rights be damned. And then -- the pièce de résistance -- lash out at the Roman Catholics when they attempt, in their own way, to do both. All because of a hatred for a moral universe.

You guys are blowing my mind on this one. Truly, absolutely, positively, astonishing.












More on Monday, if sanity permits. Ciao.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #477 of 522
1/6/07 at 12:11pm
so when I ask you to justify your assertion you come out and more or less directly say you are lying to stigmatize a disease.

good job, dmz. You have lobotomized your rational centers.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #478 of 522
1/6/07 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

so when I ask you to justify your assertion you come out and more or less directly say you are lying to stigmatize a disease.

good job, dmz. You have lobotomized your rational centers.

i realized that a long time ago, the first point actually.

Much of what passes for moral Christianity is based on lying for the greater perceived good.

Sometimes we sit here and really rip into some people's beliefs, because we actually believe that they really believe them. But they don't really, and that is why I have not ripped into dmz for quite some time.

On the surface, you, me, dmz all hold values that at first glance seem to be diametrically opposed to eachother, unreconsilable infact.

But its not true. You, me, dmz, all hold values that are pretty much coincident, what we differ on is how we express and implement those values. That we differ is only because there isn't this moral framework he claims there is, but he's claiming it, not because he believes it, but because he believes in it. There is a subtle but fundamental difference.

I've realised that Christianity (certainly dmz's form) is not about believing it, but believing in it. I know Jesus is the sun, so does dmz, I wouldn't be suprised if some of our other annoying posters know it too, however we'll still disagree, and dmz will have to claim that Jesus is real. He knows he's not, but thats moot, dmz believes in it. To believe in it, means that you might have to tell lies, knowing that you're lying and more importantly, knowing why you are lying. To believe it, just means you are lying and dont know you are lying.

Its really all about intent of heart. I think dmz is the second smartest poster here with a good heart. I often think that what he says is obnoxious, completely wrong, and highy damaging, but as we all know, you, dmz, me, there is no God, so judgement is purely relative to experience. Even if to maintain face, we often have to lie about it.

And as a plus, when Im in a bad mood, I can rip him, and he understands me, and tomorrow all is forgotten.
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post #479 of 522
1/6/07 at 4:34pm
Well, we're way off topic. But fortunately we're on, well, my subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

That's the kind of answer that has made this profoundly fascinating.

(and the following goes for all you lovely lefties)
Rather than declare institutionalized adultery 'wrong' you're willing philosophically cut off your nose to spite your face. Willing to accept the body count of only mitigating the behavior rather than to working at all to stigmatize it, human rights be damned. And then -- the pièce de résistance -- lash out at the Roman Catholics when they attempt, in their own way, to do both. All because of a hatred for a moral universe.
[/I]

Abnegation of responsibility, no, fuck it, culpability, on a continental scale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

All because of a hatred for a moral universe.
[/I]

The Dutch Reform Church of South Africa admitted black people into its congregations some forty years ago after a long debate about whether or not they actually had souls.

Colonialism and Christianisation in Africa were to all intents and purposes indistinguishable.

This isn't just some internet shite, or some something I pulled out of my arse, it's a truth that anyone who's been to Africa or studied recent African history cannot possibly deny.

Africa is fucked. It is fucked because the Christian British, Dutch, Portuguese and French fucked it. 'Paganism doesn't scale.' HIV doesn't care about the religion of its host. Get rid of the poverty, get rid of the HIV.

Arg. I'm going to bed.
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post #480 of 522
1/6/07 at 4:37pm
I think Africa was also fucked because of the end of the Cold War.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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