or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Don't Believe In Evolution? Read This.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Don't Believe In Evolution? Read This. - Page 13

post #481 of 522
Of course we all know that there is no promiscuity problem in Christian America.

dmz, the thing you have failed to comment on is that the point that the RCC is actively discouraging condom use in Africa.

Do you disagree that discouraging condom use helps to spread AIDS? A simple yes or no will suffice (though I expect some long tirade about promiscuity, which this question is NOT about).

Do you think that encouraging condom use in Africa might help to prevent the spread of AIDS? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Do you think the Catholic Church might be doing something wrong? A simple yes or no will suffice.
post #482 of 522
But Tonton, don't you see that dmz has cleverly avoided this issue by trying to couch this in entirely moral terms: "adultery" and "promiscuity"? If it's a moral issue, you don't need to talk about AIDS and condoms and politics. You just need to get the folks in Kenya to stop having so much sex! And if people describe it in political terms? Make fun of them and then drop out of the discussion! dmz SOP. I must admit, though, that I'm upset that we didn't get to talk about Locke.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #483 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

I'm upset that we didn't get to talk about Locke.

Yeah, he never should have opened that damned hatch.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #484 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Yeah, he never should have opened that damned hatch.

RIGHT NOW I'm assembling my notes for a paper on LOST. You just freaked me out.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #485 of 522
The last time I checked in here the topic was Evolution. How did it get to condom use in Africa?

Anyway Tonton, I'll bite.

I don't believe encouraging condom use for unmarried couples in Africa (or anywhere else) stops, or significantly slows the spread of AIDS.

It would work if human beings regularly had sex just once, and then moved on to other pursuits.
I don't know anyone who does that. Once you're sexually active, you're sexually active.

Given the need for the correct use of condoms and the general failure rate, a condom will not protect anyone who is regularly having sex with an infected person over the medium to long term.

A condom is better than nothing. But if rich westerners only want to travel all the way to Africa to give advice that is slightly better than nothing, they should just stay home.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #486 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I don't believe encouraging condom use for unmarried couples in Africa (or anywhere else) stops, or significantly slows the spread of AIDS.

That belief would be wrong. First because AIDS doesn't spread -- HIV does.

Secondly, there is evidence directly to the contrary:

Search for condom

Interestingly, I found a link that directly counter dmz's claim of Africans having more partners than elsewhere:
link of goodness
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
Reply
post #487 of 522
dmz:

What does "notably culpable" even mean?

Quote:
...once again, you guys in the "science" crowd need to stop and do the math on what levels of fornication it takes to infect 33% of a population. (hint: it's more than in the West)

Absolute statements without a hint of logic, much less actual scientific justification.

Quote:
Condom use is often associated with promiscuity. It is thus difficult for a woman to suggest to a man that he wears a condom because she might not trust the partner or it may be interpreted that she does not trust the partner.

And then: None of this has anything to do with what the Roman Catholic Church stands for.

Do I sincerely need to point out the flaw in your logic?

Quote:
If you hate the Church (Christians, whatever) that badly, why don't you dispense with your "reasons" for hating, and just be a forthright bigot?

Why can you not engage in a simple cause/effect discussion? I think your religious beliefs are an embarrassing, harmful joke, but I do not "hate" Christians or the church.

Quote:
Well, whatever you do, don't tell the folks over at UNAIDS. They're under the impression that promiscuity and institutionalized adultery might be a problem.

UNAIDS also has this to say:
Conclusive evidence from extensive research shows that correct and consistent condom use significantly reduces the risk of HIV transmission.* The male latex condom is the single, most efficient, available technology to reduce the sexual transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.
...
Condoms must be promoted in ways that help overcome sexual and personal obstacles to their use.* Complex gender and cultural factors can be a challenge for HIV prevention education and condom promotion.* Due to gender norms and inequalities, many women find it hard or impossible to negotiate with their partners to use condoms.* According to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), only 4.9% of married women of reproductive age use condoms.


Tell me, dmz, what massive religious organization promotes the ideas that (1) condoms are poor protection against STDs (2) women are to be subservient to men as the church is to Christ?

Quote:
That's the kind of answer that has made this profoundly fascinating.

Being asked to prove your racist accusations is "fascinating"?

Quote:
All because of a hatred for a moral universe.

So now it is not just a matter of hating Christians, but hating the Universe?

Psych101 represent!

midwinter:

No joke. The astounding racism dmz assume we all accept (as he apparently does) is completely appalling. Not to mention the uniformity "those people" are supposed to display.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #488 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Anyway Tonton, I'll bite.

Maybe that's why you think condoms fail so much -- you do run the risk of puncturing them if you bite. Please, not only for health reasons, but for the pleasure of your partner, no teeth! Lips and tongue only.

Quote:
Given the need for the correct use of condoms and the general failure rate, a condom will not protect anyone who is regularly having sex with an infected person over the medium to long term.

Most people don't seem to realize that if someone says that the failure rate of condoms is 1% or 10% or 50% that that's an absolutely meaningless, useless number stated that way. A failure rate cannot be stated as nothing but a percentage.

Only a failure rate specified for a given number of uses, or given span of time (with an assumed average number of uses during that time) has any useful meaning whatsoever.

It's not just religious conservatives who misunderstand these statistics -- our entire culture is pathetically innumerate when it comes to this stuff -- but religious conservatives, not surprisingly, always misunderstand these statistics to mean condoms are as horribly unreliable as they can misunderstand them to mean.

Here are some positive sounding statistics from the Red Cross, but even these are lacking the vital time-period information to make them truly useful:
Quote:
Used correctly and consistently, latex (or polyurethane if allergic to latex) condoms greatly reduce the risk of transmission of HIV (the virus that causes AIDS) and some other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).* One study of latex condom effectiveness observed couples in which only one partner was living with HIV, comparing the couples using condoms consistently with those that did not. Of the 123 couples using condoms consistently, no uninfected partner became infected during the study. Of the 122 couples not using condoms consistently, 12 partners became infected with HIV.

I would guess that the span of this study was at least one year, but I can only guess. If the time period were a year, the failure rate is something less than 1% per year -- how much less is impossible to tell.

What people who deliberately misunderstand statistics like this will do is assume that any given failure rate is a per use failure rate. They'll state crazy failure rates like 10%, and act as if that means the one out of ten times you have sex using a condom that pregnancy or disease transmission will result, which is of course absolutely bogus. The above statistics are clearly for some time period covering a good bit more than a single sex act on average. Even if that time period were merely a month, the disease transmission rate with no condom at all would be around 10% for the whole time period, not much higher than 2% per sex act if the couples averaged one sex act per week.

Since the study period is almost certainly at least one year, even unprotected sex with a known HIV infected partner is well under 1% per sex act. With a condom, even allowing for condom failure, the per-act risk of infection becomes almost vanishingly small.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #489 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

Well, we're way off topic. But fortunately we're on, well, my subject.


Abnegation of responsibility, no, fuck it, culpability, on a continental scale.

The Dutch Reform Church of South Africa admitted black people into its congregations some forty years ago after a long debate about whether or not they actually had souls.

Colonialism and Christianisation in Africa were to all intents and purposes indistinguishable.

This isn't just some internet shite, or some something I pulled out of my arse, it's a truth that anyone who's been to Africa or studied recent African history cannot possibly deny.

Africa is fucked. It is fucked because the Christian British, Dutch, Portuguese and French fucked it. 'Paganism doesn't scale.' HIV doesn't care about the religion of its host. Get rid of the poverty, get rid of the HIV.

Arg. I'm going to bed.

Yes, go ahead and give the culture a complete pass; apparently institutionalized adultery, etc., was secretly instituted by Christian whitey. Oh, wait, it's road systems' fault for increasing travel -- let's blame the civil engineers.

No

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #490 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Make fun of them and then drop out of the discussion!

mmm.... it's Monday and I'm back, which is what I noted in my post when I 'dropped out'.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #491 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

dmz, the thing you have failed to comment on is that the point that the RCC is actively discouraging condom use in Africa.

Do you disagree that discouraging condom use helps to spread AIDS? A simple yes or no will suffice (though I expect some long tirade about promiscuity, which this question is NOT about).

Do you think that encouraging condom use in Africa might help to prevent the spread of AIDS? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Do you think the Catholic Church might be doing something wrong? A simple yes or no will suffice.

tonton, I can't comprehend this line of reasoning. Let's run though this: The RCC [thank you for the acronym] says that 'there are no condoms to be used between married couples.'

Agreed?

Riddle me this: If 'they' aren't listening to the teachings on sex, why whould 'they' listen to the teachings on condoms?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #492 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

UNAIDS also has this to say:
Conclusive evidence from extensive research shows that correct and consistent condom use significantly reduces the risk of HIV transmission.* The male latex condom is the single, most efficient, available technology to reduce the sexual transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.
...
Condoms must be promoted in ways that help overcome sexual and personal obstacles to their use.* Complex gender and cultural factors can be a challenge for HIV prevention education and condom promotion.* Due to gender norms and inequalities, many women find it hard or impossible to negotiate with their partners to use condoms.* According to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), only 4.9% of married women of reproductive age use condoms.

Tell me, dmz, what massive religious organization promotes the ideas that (1) condoms are poor protection against STDs (2) women are to be subservient to men as the church is to Christ?

You need to get your facts together as to what is meant by 'gender norms' and 'cultural factors' in many African countries. The RCC teachings don't include those 'gender norms' and 'cultural factors'.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #493 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Yes, go ahead and give the culture a complete pass; apparently institutionalized adultery, etc., was secretly instituted by Christian whitey. Oh, wait, it's road systems' fault for increasing travel -- let's blame the civil engineers.

No

Oh you dick, there was no such thing as 'institutionalised adultery' before colonialism in most sub-Sahran siNtu cultures. Christians didn't invent courtship, marriage rites and monogamy. But you people did manage to fuck it up for everyone with your racism and hypocrisy and theft, which has left a legacy of poverty, violence and destroyed social structures everywhere.

The total contempt you people had for the beautiful cultures they found in Africa led you to actively try and destroy them, with method, and as a point of policy. You did a bang-up job, congrats.

South Africa and Swaziland are largely Christian. While you're clearly imagining savages going 'ooger booger' and fucking each at the drop of a hat, the townships and slums have colossal churches in them, and guess what: HIV doesn't give a fuck if you've accepted Christ into your life or not.

I won't give the culture 'a pass' if you don't give the arrogance hypocrisy, violence and contempt of the missionaries and the other colonialists 'a pass'.
post #494 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

Oh you dick, there was no such thing as 'institutionalised adultery' before colonialism in most sub-Sahran siNtu cultures. Christians didn't invent courtship, marriage rites and monogamy. But you people did manage to fuck it up for everyone with your racism and hypocrisy and theft, which has left a legacy of poverty, violence and destroyed social structures everywhere.

The total contempt you people had for the beautiful cultures they found in Africa led you to actively try and destroy them, with method, and as a point of policy. You did a bang-up job, congrats.

South Africa and Swaziland are largely Christian. While you're clearly imagining savages going 'ooger booger' and fucking each at the drop of a hat, the townships and slums have colossal churches in them, and guess what: HIV doesn't give a fuck if you've accepted Christ into your life or not.

I won't give the culture 'a pass' if you don't give the arrogance hypocrisy, violence and contempt of the missionaries and the other colonialists 'a pass'.

You're just repeating vacuous rhetoric. Why not just admit the problem for you is that the RCC wont get down and rut in the gutter with the materialists? Perhaps you could give me an extemporaneous speech on how the RCC disrupted the beautiful culture of San Fransico -- and irrevocably damaged the gay community's sense of risk-averse behavior? Do tell.

Ohhhhh no, 'gotta have the dogma of free luvin' no matter how many people have to die.








Settle down, and address what cultural factors are causing the spread of AIDS, in Africa. Be specific how whitey has done this. Then when you're done, tie this to RCC teachings.

(and hurry up about it)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #495 of 522
I'd like to try to cut through the clutter of all of this arguing about the alleged promiscuity of sub-Saharan "culture" -- as if it were all one single "culture" to begin with.

Apart from the too-broad brush strokes being applied to most of a large continent here, what I think dmz is saying is this: "If these people would only live the perfect moral sexual lives the Catholic Church teaches, with no sex before marriage, and sex with no one but your spouse after you marry, then they wouldn't need any of these silly condoms which the Catholic Church tells them not to use. Recognizing and respecting the 'moral universe' would take care of everything!"

This is as true as it worthless, however.

In the real world, no moral or ethical or legal or political system should ever be judged by imagining how well it would work if only everyone would follow all of the rules exactly. Systems which work well if everyone does everything exactly the way the system itself proscribes are a dime a dozen. Communism, for example, would have worked amazingly well if everyone in a communist society had decided to act like a good little communist.

A really good system is one which functions well with less than perfect compliance to the rules of the system, one that functions well with real people acting like real people really do.

The Catholic Church's animosity towards condoms and birth control causes harm because it only works well in an idealized and unrealistic situation. You might as well say, "If only everyone would cut off their right hand right now, a perfect world would spring into being, where not only would all of those severed hands be restored, but crime and poverty and starvation and war would end, and we'd all live together in perfect harmony" -- and then, when of course no one listens to your crazy idea, you smugly assert that you were right, and that everyone who wouldn't believe you is at fault for the miserable lack of paradise we have to deal with.

In the real world, condoms are far more effective than imagined theoretical compliance to some idealized moral system.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #496 of 522
dmz:

I would be more than happy to sign on and indict Africas culture just as soon as I get some kind of cohesive, logical indictment to judge.

I do not subscribe to the notion that Africa was utopia until the evil Western horde came stomping in, but I also do not subscribe to the equally-idiotic notion that the evil African horde simply refuses to listen to the Utopia-wielding West. The problems that exist are a mix of pre-Catholic culture and Catholic culture, and both sides must acknowledge their role and not hold themselves blameless.

Quote:
You need to get your facts together as to what is meant by 'gender norms' and 'cultural factors' in many African countries. The RCC teachings don't include those 'gender norms' and 'cultural factors'.

It is your contention that religion does not influence cultural norms?

If you believe that religion cannot influence cultural norms, why would you advocate the Catholic churchs efforts to help by changing cultural norms?
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #497 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

I'd like to try to cut through the clutter of all of this arguing about the alleged promiscuity of sub-Saharan "culture" -- as if it were all one single "culture" to begin with.

Apart from the too-broad brush strokes being applied to most of a large continent here, what I think dmz is saying is this: "If these people would only live the perfect moral sexual lives the Catholic Church teaches, with no sex before marriage, and sex with no one but your spouse after you marry, then they wouldn't need any of these silly condoms which the Catholic Church tells them not to use. Recognizing and respecting the 'moral universe' would take care of everything!"

This is as true as it worthless, however.

In the real world, no moral or ethical or legal or political system should ever be judged by imagining how well it would work if only everyone would follow all of the rules exactly. Systems which work well if everyone does everything exactly the way the system itself proscribes are a dime a dozen. Communism, for example, would have worked amazingly well if everyone in a communist society had decided to act like a good little communist.

A really good system is one which functions well with less than perfect compliance to the rules of the system, one that functions well with real people acting like real people really do.

The Catholic Church's animosity towards condoms and birth control causes harm because it only works well in an idealized and unrealistic situation. You might as well say, "If only everyone would cut off their right hand right now, a perfect world would spring into being, where not only would all of those severed hands be restored, but crime and poverty and starvation and war would end, and we'd all live together in perfect harmony" -- and then, when of course no one listens to your crazy idea, you smugly assert that you were right, and that everyone who wouldn't believe you is at fault for the miserable lack of paradise we have to deal with.

In the real world, condoms are far more effective than imagined theoretical compliance to some idealized moral system.

Even allowing for a moment the presumption of a 'real world,' the problem of blaming the RCC for AIDS deaths lies in the question I put to tonton: if 'they' don't follow the RCC teaching on sex, why would 'they' follow the teaching on condoms?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #498 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

It is your contention that religion does not influence cultural norms?

No, just that the UNAIDS isn't fighting entrenched RCC teaching to get at the root of the problem. That the root of the problem is essentially, in an overgeneralized nutshell, the treatment of women as sex objects/chattel.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #499 of 522
I cant remember who said something about Higgs boson, what they said or what thread it was in, but I remember someone saying something about finding it, well it just got a bit easier

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...t-lighter.html
post #500 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Even allowing for a moment the presumption of a 'real world,' the problem of blaming the RCC for AIDS deaths lies in the question I put to tonton: if 'they' don't follow the RCC teaching on sex, why would 'they' follow the teaching on condoms?

You aren't actually baffled by that, are you? Why would someone down a triple cheeseburger, fries, and a banana split, but still convince himself he's "on a diet" because he washes it all down with a Diet Coke?

Not using condoms is easy. Not too many people who do use them like using them, they simply tolerate them because they smartly decide that a little inconvenience and slightly diminished pleasure is a reasonable price for protection against disease and unwanted pregnancy.

People who don't rationally consider consequences (i.e., most human beings), but who simply subscribe to unexamined lists of rules about what's right and what's wrong, will simply break the big rules that are tough to follow and pray for forgiveness, and hope to earn a few points for following the little rules which are easy to follow.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #501 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

, the treatment of women as sex objects/chattel.

but its good for them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4646010.stm
post #502 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

You aren't actually baffled by that, are you? Why would someone down a triple cheeseburger, fries, and a banana split, but still convince himself he's "on a diet" because he washes it all down with a Diet Coke?

Not using condoms is easy. Not too many people who do use them like using them, they simply tolerate them because they smartly decide that a little inconvenience and slightly diminished pleasure is a reasonable price for protection against disease and unwanted pregnancy.

People who don't rationally consider consequences (i.e., most human beings), but who simply subscribe to unexamined lists of rules about what's right and what's wrong, will simply break the big rules that are tough to follow and pray for forgiveness, and hope to earn a few points for following the little rules which are easy to follow.

Yes, but that is speculation, you can't blame the RCC church for AIDS deaths based on speculation. You can depend on a 'devout' community deviating at some known rate. It doesn't make sense to turn around and blame the people 'making up' the rules for the deviation.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #503 of 522
dmz:

Quote:
No, just that the UNAIDS isn't fighting entrenched RCC teaching to get at the root of the problem. That the root of the problem is essentially, in an overgeneralized nutshell, the treatment of women as sex objects/chattel.

One must not cure a disease to alleviate its devastating symptoms.

I also think it is naïve to attempt to extricate the church from its role in establishing (or at least reinforcing) the cultural norms that are proving problematic: (1) the failure of people to use protection and (2) the ill treatment of women.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #504 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

dmz:



One must not cure a disease to alleviate its devastating symptoms.

I also think it is naïve to attempt to extricate the church from its role in establishing (or at least reinforcing) the cultural norms that are proving problematic: (1) the failure of people to use protection and (2) the ill treatment of women.

not in a million years... if the RCC has one problem, it's that they cannot strengthen the husband-wife relationships to the point where adultery goes down to even Newt Gingrich/Bill O’Reilly levels.


...and let's not forget: if people learned from experience, Las Vegas would not exist.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #505 of 522
What do you mean by not in a million years?

Quote:
if the RCC has one problem, it's that they cannot strengthen the husband-wife relationships to the point where adultery goes down to even Newt Gingrich/Bill OReilly levels.

So they cannot achieve their objective, and in the meantime they actively campaign to sabotage others in their attempts to help.

So tell me, what good is the Catholic church doing?
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #506 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Yes, but that is speculation, you can't blame the RCC church for AIDS deaths based on speculation. You can depend on a 'devout' community deviating at some known rate. It doesn't make sense to turn around and blame the people 'making up' the rules for the deviation.

What speculation? You're either an observant student of human nature or you aren't -- I know how people rationalize stupid and inconsistent behavior, and I know it happens a lot. I'm pretty sure you know the same things about people too, and can only deny this as "speculation" as a convenient evasion.

As for blame... yes, I can blame them. There's plenty of blame to go around, not all of it belongs to the RCC, but they deserve a share. If stubborn denial of reality in favor of unrealistic ideals predictably results in disaster, that stubborn denial is a culpable act as far as I'm concerned.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #507 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

What do you mean by “not in a million years”?



So they cannot achieve their objective, and in the meantime they actively campaign to sabotage others in their attempts to help.

So tell me, what good is the Catholic church doing?

They can 'actively campaign to sabotage others in their attempts to help' it's pretty clear that no one is listening, (except possibly in some wierd, schizophrenic kind of way -- which is just another problem.)

Look, if your reasoning was sound, San Fransico would not have an AIDS problem. But once you leave the path of moral/rational risk-averse (sin-averse) behaviour, your guess is as bad as mine.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #508 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

You're just repeating vacuous rhetoric. Why not just admit the problem for you is that the RCC wont get down and rut in the gutter with the materialists? Perhaps you could give me an extemporaneous speech on how the RCC disrupted the beautiful culture of San Fransico -- and irrevocably damaged the gay community's sense of risk-averse behavior? Do tell.

Ohhhhh no, 'gotta have the dogma of free luvin' no matter how many people have to die.


Settle down, and address what cultural factors are causing the spread of AIDS, in Africa. Be specific how whitey has done this. Then when you're done, tie this to RCC teachings.

(and hurry up about it)

I blame colonialism for the poverty and ignorance that makes AIDS all the rage in Africa.

I don't know enough about gay culture in San Francisco to comment on it, but I don't think it's to do with the colonialism of the indigenous gay people of North America by European Christians, so your comparison is utterly fucking bizarre to me.
post #509 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

What speculation? You're either an observant student of human nature or you aren't -- I know how people rationalize stupid and inconsistent behavior, and I know it happens a lot. I'm pretty sure you know the same things about people too, and can only deny this as "speculation" as a convenient evasion.

As for blame... yes, I can blame them. There's plenty of blame to go around, not all of it belongs to the RCC, but they deserve a share. If stubborn denial of reality in favor of unrealistic ideals predictably results in disaster, that stubborn denial is a culpable act as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, blame them for making a rule that few too many are following. That makes a lot of sense.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #510 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Yes, blame them for making a rule that few too many are following. That makes a lot of sense.

It's not a single rule, but a combination of rules -- one set of sex-limiting rules, which history has shown are very seldom followed strictly in any time and culture, and which go very much against natural human sexuality -- compounded by rules against condoms and other birth control which are much easier to follow, but a disaster if followed when the first rules aren't followed.

I blame the RCC for being pig-headedly stupid about human nature, denying obvious facts of human behavior, and for setting up a system that makes a bigger mess when partially followed in exactly the kind of stupid partial-following people are prone to, because too many people will stupidly try to earn a few extra "holiness points" by following the easy-to-follow rules while breaking the harder-to-follow rules.

The much smarter thing would be to ignore the RCC completely, think clearly about consequences for health and personal relationships, and do what comes naturally, but with a modicum of care, caution, and restraint. But just because I can see smarter choices individuals could make for themselves doesn't mean the RCC's stance still doesn't have a predictably bad outcome for which they own a share of the blame.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #511 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

...and for setting up a system that makes a bigger mess when partially followed...

What system wouldn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

in exactly the kind of stupid partial-following people are prone to, because too many people will stupidly try to earn a few extra "holiness points" by following the easy-to-follow rules while breaking the harder-to-follow rules.

That's not what's happening though, even if they we're all RCs, they're breaking the easy-to-follow rules (cheating) and then ignoring the details (big surprise there). In any case the local culture is trumping any of this before it comes into play.

Although, if we had this discussion about Central America I might have to agree with you.








(this is getting very close to the 'is not!'/'is too!' stage.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #512 of 522
dmz:

Quote:
They can 'actively campaign to sabotage others in their attempts to help' it's pretty clear that no one is listening, (except possibly in some wierd, schizophrenic kind of way -- which is just another problem.)

People are obviously listening to the misinformation about condom use.

The rules of the Catholic church are not something that are either followed in total or completely ignored. What you have is the worst case scenario: The preaching of abstinence is ignored (just like it is ignored everyone because of hundreds of millions of years of evolutionary imperative) while the misinformation about condoms is accepted. Every other iteration would be better than what is happening now.

Quote:
Look, if your reasoning was sound, San Fransico would not have an AIDS problem. But once you leave the path of moral/rational risk-averse (sin-averse) behaviour, your guess is as bad as mine.

Relative to the areas of Africa we are discussing, San Francisco does not have an AIDS problem.

Quote:
What system wouldn't?

This idealogy:
One should remain celibate until engaged in a strong, long-term relationship, and one should always use condoms, which are very effective in preventing unwanted pregnancies and STDs.

Quote:
That's not what's happening though, even if they we're all RCs, they're breaking the easy-to-follow rules (cheating) and then ignoring the details (big surprise there). In any case the local culture is trumping any of this before it comes into play.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
How can the church pretend to enact change in a culture and, at the same time, claim no influence at all in the culture?
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #513 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

What system wouldn't?

Consider a plan of diet and exercise. For the most part, it's a simply matter that the more you comply, the more benefit you get, the less you comply, the less benefit you get. It's very unlikely that giving it all up is better than doing nothing at all, and very unlikely that following only half of it is way, way, way worse than either all or nothing.

Plus, as long as no one treats the diet and exercise plan as a set of Absolute Moral Rules handed down to unworthy mankind by God Himself, the plan could easily be amended to warn you against problems of partial compliance: "We recommend that you don't eat X, but if you do eat X, also skip eating Y and performing exercise B."

The RCC, however, believing in an abstract morality, believing themselves to be relaying the rules of God Himself, can't bring themselves to say, "Don't have premarital sex or use condoms, but if you do have premarital sex anyway, use a condom too."

Quote:
That's not what's happening though, even if they we're all RCs, they're breaking the easy-to-follow rules (cheating)

Not cheating, and especially not having pre-marital sex, are clearly not easy-to-follow rules. People obviously have and have had all throughout history a great deal of trouble following such rules. The best system is the system that deals best with partial compliance, not the one that exacerbates problems of partial compliance (perhaps in some sick hope of deliberately cultivating excess misery to which one can point and say, "There's the price you pay for being naughty!")

Quote:
In any case the local culture is trumping any of this before it comes into play.

I don't give a damn about "local culture". The RCC rules are stupid and irresponsibly in any human culture. Even if you're right (in great broad sweeping strokes about an incredible variety of individual cultures you treat as one single caricature) about "local culture", all that means is the Africa is an especially stupid place to apply the already stupid and irresponsible RCC rules.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #514 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

San Francisco does not have an AIDS problem.

Right, or an HIV problem, and gay men don't either. I don't have any patience for this, sorry.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #515 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Not cheating, and especially not having pre-marital sex, are clearly not easy-to-follow rules.

Really? San Fransico has no AIDS problem, and being faithful to your wife is a problem. Got it.

Maybe we can drift this discussion back towards reality; until then, all of a sudden I'm out of time here.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #516 of 522
dmz:

Is your intellectual and personal dishonesty so profound that you feel the need to cut sentences in half and respond only to the half you desire? I think you need to take a serious look at where your mind is and the results it produces when you put information in.

You are completely out to lunch and you need Jesus (or someone) to come in and rewire your logic board (as it were, MWSF is coming and I am a bit distracted).
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #517 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

dmz:

Is your intellectual and personal dishonesty so profound that you feel the need to cut sentences in half and respond only to the half you desire? I think you need to take a serious look at where your mind is and the results it produces when you put information in.

You are completely out to lunch and you need Jesus (or someone) to come in and rewire your logic board (as it were, MWSF is coming and I am a bit distracted).

I'm just distracted in general.

I think where this is going is essentially:
Quote:
who are we to tell the Africans they can't fool around?

with a great big heaping 'pile' of:
Quote:
... and anyone who doesn't actively facilitate that end, by helping them fool around as safely as possible, is guilty of killing babies, kittens, and grandmothers. edit: that is, responsible for their actions/misadventure

....and that is screwball logic. And I am out of time. And we will have to agree to disagree. And I have whizzed away enough valuable time today. And I will be working late because of it!

so there!

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #518 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

And I have whizzed away enough valuable time today. And I will be working late because of it!

so there!

dont forget to pick up the teddies before you leave
post #519 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post

dont forget to pick up the teddies before you leave

frog blast the vent core!

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #520 of 522
Evolution-theories are nothing new, even in ancient times evolution-theories were formulated.

There were even muslim philosophers, zooists and scientists that formulated evolution-theories explaining life as coming from water or minerals and evolving slowly into plants, and then into animals and then into humans.
They identified the difference between life and non-life as being movement and a need for food, and identified the reasons for evolution as being environment and the fight for survival.

That was well before Darwin, namely during the 8th-11th century.


Nonetheless they were convinced that without God nothing of it would be possible, ie. that evolution is creation.

Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
Reply
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Don't Believe In Evolution? Read This.