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Res. independence?

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 
I understand when one Zooms in on the screen in the final version of Leopard there will be practically unnoticeable pixilation. Things will get bigger, but not fuzzy. However I've been told that if you Zoom in on the screen with the Mighty mouse+ctrl combo in the current build it's the same as Tiger is today.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #2 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland

I understand when one Zooms in on the screen in the final version of Leopard there will be practically unnoticeable pixilation. Things will get bigger, but not fuzzy. However I've been told that if you Zoom in on the screen with the Mighty mouse+ctrl combo in the current build it's the same as Tiger is today.

To me, it seems Leopard is so unfinished that there's either: a) a super secret build at 1 Infinite Loop, b) there are no super secret builds and Leopard will not be released for another 6 months.

January will be the month where we find out if Jobs has been hiding a secret build from everyone.

Last minute changes to the GUI, unfinished resolution independence support in the current builds (when considering this stuff has been in the works since 10.4) and late changes to the Finder don't strike me as awesome moves by Apple.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet Leopard will be 3 times buggier than Tiger was at launch. There's a 0% chance Apple will ship this Spring lest there be a TON of bugs in 10.5.

I secretly hope Apple's been feeding the developers some 3-month old builds but, knowing Apple, this probably isn't the case.
post #3 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I understand when one Zooms in on the screen in the final version of Leopard there will be practically unnoticeable pixilation. Things will get bigger, but not fuzzy. However I've been told that if you Zoom in on the screen with the Mighty mouse+ctrl combo in the current build it's the same as Tiger is today.

I think it's unlikely that resolution independence will be a preference for end users in the first 10.5 versions since Apple at WWDC told developers that they had until 2008 to get their apps ready for resolution independence.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #4 of 32
Resolution independence *is* there in Leopard builds, but it still has some glitches.

See here. Note that report was several months ago -- from August.

The one thing that easiest to add or remove from a build is interface. Apple can easily have a new UI -- anything from a small to a major refresh -- being worked by a separate, secret team (much like Aqua was) and fold it in with minimal disruption. Again, just like Aqua -- MS never saw IE in Aqua before it was demonstrated to them publicly.

kks, what's with the pessimism? You been burned too often hoping for UI changes that never came? I'm hoping Leopard is less buggy than Tiger too, but it's my theory (supplanted with a sliver of inside info, FWIW) that Tiger's release date was rushed because time was needed to prepare for a big release to compete with Vista.

They'll had almost two years for Leopard (interesting -- wasn't the original Aqua design also a two-year project?) when it's released this spring. That's why it's not unreasonable to expect some interesting changes, and something good.
post #5 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes

kks, what's with the pessimism? You been burned too often hoping for UI changes that never came? I'm hoping Leopard is less buggy than Tiger too, but it's my theory (supplanted with a sliver of inside info, FWIW) that Tiger's release date was rushed because time was needed to prepare for a big release to compete with Vista.

They'll had almost two years for Leopard (interesting -- wasn't the original Aqua design also a two-year project?) when it's released this spring. That's why it's not unreasonable to expect some interesting changes, and something good.

Well...a pessimist can never be disappointed.
post #6 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I understand when one Zooms in on the screen in the final version of Leopard there will be practically unnoticeable pixilation. Things will get bigger, but not fuzzy. However I've been told that if you Zoom in on the screen with the Mighty mouse+ctrl combo in the current build it's the same as Tiger is today.

This makes sense to me because the ctrl-zoom feature will just be zooming in on the image that has been pushed out of the quartz compositor onto the GPU. Resolution independent calculations would have to be done before this image is made. For a zoom feature, I think it would be too slow to recalculate the elements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol

To me, it seems Leopard is so unfinished that there's either: a) a super secret build at 1 Infinite Loop, b) there are no super secret builds and Leopard will not be released for another 6 months.

January will be the month where we find out if Jobs has been hiding a secret build from everyone.

Last minute changes to the GUI, unfinished resolution independence support in the current builds (when considering this stuff has been in the works since 10.4) and late changes to the Finder don't strike me as awesome moves by Apple.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet Leopard will be 3 times buggier than Tiger was at launch. There's a 0% chance Apple will ship this Spring lest there be a TON of bugs in 10.5.

I secretly hope Apple's been feeding the developers some 3-month old builds but, knowing Apple, this probably isn't the case.

I have to say I have the same opinion. People are all saying Leopard is going to be great but I haven't seen any evidence yet beyond the ZFS stuff, which is going to be in Solaris anyway. Most of the things like Spaces, Time machine, Web clip etc are either just gimmicks or repackaged technology we've seen already.

I'm liking the idea of application scripting with Python and Ruby but I don't really need to script programs that much so for features that I'm really needing, speed and reliability come out on top and early reports suggest these goals are not being met. Heck one guy (can't remember if it was Steve) had to switch to a backup because an app crashed during the keynote and wouldn't force quit.

I want a system that fits on one DVD including the developer tools and ilife. I want them all to run as fast as my hardware can push them, no unnecessary delays and very little beachballing.
post #7 of 32
I'm ok with waiting a bit into 2007. In fact I'm loving what I'm hearing.

ZFS if further along than I had thought previously.
iSCSI support is supposedly native to Leopard.

UI changes likely coming and other surprises. He'll I'd wait until June gladly if that meant having a relatively bug free OS ship.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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post #8 of 32
Quote:
I'm ok with waiting a bit into 2007. In fact I'm loving what I'm hearing.

ZFS if further along than I had thought previously.
iSCSI support is supposedly native to Leopard.

UI changes likely coming and other surprises. He'll I'd wait until June gladly if that meant having a relatively bug free OS ship.

Personally, I think any of the features of Leopard are worth the price of entry. 64 bit. Time Machine (amazing!), video and presentation features folded into iChat (incredible...), Core Animation (which is set to up end how programs are presented and interacted with...), the 'drag and drop' email themes for Mail, improved Spotlight, X-Code 3, improved Automator. Dash board widget generator/maker. Mini web pages on your desktop...( the mind boggles.)

And we get ZFS. Which, previously on Ars and on these boards, wasn't expected until 10.6?

And we get the roped in features. Photobooth. Bootcamp (revolutionary from an Apple point of veiw... Just a year or so ago you'd have been laughed at and pitchfork chased off these very same boards if you would have dared mention a dual Windows/Apple box from none other than Apple themselves!?!? A ploy that is tonking Apple sales to 2million?)

Eh. Secret features or not? This is a release to top Tiger and Vista easily.

In short? We've never had it this good!!! Yeesh, we must be seriously jaded and complacent and spoiled to be this blah-zay about a ground breaking release. Erh...what more do you want???!??

Add in some surprise last minute top secret features: A GUI to end all GUIs. 'iPhone' support, iTV support, Front Row (neXt gen...), iLife 07(!) and...and...what ever else?!??!



Pff. Yer hard please some of you...

Lemon Bon Bon 8)

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

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You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #9 of 32
And...new mega voice, sounding more natural than ever before...

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #10 of 32
...and there'll be Creative Suite 3.0 native Intel support for it...

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #11 of 32
...and Open GL 2.

And the fact it will be released on re-designed Intel Macs prob' by that point...

...with more cores...and faster cores...and better GPUS which will leave the current generation for dead...

Teh Snappy?

Lemon Bon Bon

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #12 of 32
I bet there's many a Mac user who would take any of those as price of entry and raise you five.

Lemon Bon Bon

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #13 of 32
Hear hear!!

Now stop whining and be happy with teh Leopard, which will only be, what,
the greatest OS ever.
post #14 of 32
Just to be clear, I'm disappointed by the feature-set. I'm disappointed to see the state in which the feature-set is in.

According to a lot of people, most of these features are extremely buggy right now.

We don't know for sure ZFS will be in 10.5. It could suffer the same fate as Quartz 2D Extreme. I'm almost scared resolution independence will be a feature that will be dropped just so Apple can ship Leopard come Spring.

I have yet to see a screenshot of iChat's new feature in action (video presentation and bluescreen features in particular).

The GUI right now seems unrefined...this could be because a new theme is about to be unveiled but even so...it's getting pretty late to unleash a new theme onto developers even if the excuse is that Apple was scared that Microsoft would make some last-minute-photocopying.
post #15 of 32
Of course, we all remember what our forefathers said about this Resolution of Independence.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #16 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Of course, we all remember what our forefathers said about this Resolution of Independence.

For that one, Mr. Sandwich, I believe you deserve what the Norse called a "Blood Eagle:"
MacBook Pro C2D 2.4GHz and a battle-scarred PowerBook G4 1.33GHz

"When you gaze long into a dead pixel, the dead pixes gazes also into you"
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MacBook Pro C2D 2.4GHz and a battle-scarred PowerBook G4 1.33GHz

"When you gaze long into a dead pixel, the dead pixes gazes also into you"
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post #17 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by wirc View Post

For that one, Mr. Sandwich, I believe you deserve what the Norse called a "Blood Eagle:"

Bwahahahaha!

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #18 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

Just to be clear, I'm disappointed by the feature-set. I'm disappointed to see the state in which the feature-set is in.

Spaces, time machine, core animation, improved 64 bitness, numerous small improvements, What missing features did you expect? You want it to make you sandwiches in the morning But seriously, in 2.5 years that's more improvement than microsoft has made in, what, 10 years??

Quote:
According to a lot of people, most of these features are extremely buggy right now.

It's a beta....

Quote:
We don't know for sure ZFS will be in 10.5. It could suffer the same fate as Quartz 2D Extreme.

Don't know much about ZFS, but i believe it is totally irrelevant to any non-geek osX user anyway...

Quote:
I have yet to see a screenshot of iChat's new feature in action (video presentation and bluescreen features in particular).

Uhmmm....


Quote:
I'm almost scared resolution independence will be a feature that will be dropped just so Apple can ship Leopard come Spring.

Quote:
The GUI right now seems unrefined...this could be because a new theme is about to be unveiled but even so...it's getting pretty late to unleash a new theme onto developers even if the excuse is that Apple was scared that Microsoft would make some last-minute-photocopying.

I expect the main 'top secret' feature is a completely restyled UI featuring RI and impressive use of core animation. I don't believe app developers need early access as all relevant UI elements will change automatically as they are provided by osX anyway (think scrollbar styles etc.).
I think apple is smarter than you seem to believe and that current Leopard builds contain all necessary -under-the-hood- changes developers need to update their apps. Then as apple introduces the new UI, the changed application-level elements are just automatically applied to all apps, no intervention needed.
post #19 of 32
more info here
post #20 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutch pear View Post

Spaces, time machine, core animation, improved 64 bitness, numerous small improvements, What missing features did you expect? You want it to make you sandwiches in the morning But seriously, in 2.5 years that's more improvement than microsoft has made in, what, 10 years??

What part of "I'm not disappointed in the feature-set" did you not get?

Quote:
It's a beta....

True, but you'd expect some of the key features to be stable this late in the game.

Quote:
Don't know much about ZFS, but i believe it is totally irrelevant to any non-geek osX user anyway...

You'd like to think so.


Quote:

Oh, you're so smart. Where are the "developer-submitted" screenshots or movies of iChat in action? There aren't very many because iChat is far from being complete. If you thought the videos at Apple weren't touched up or mocked up, you're living in Wonderland.
post #21 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

What part of "I'm not disappointed in the feature-set" did you not get?

Well, you wrote:
Quote:
I'm disappointed by the feature-set.

I guess you forgot the "not"

Quote:
Oh, you're so smart. Where are the "developer-submitted" screenshots or movies of iChat in action? There aren't very many because iChat is far from being complete. If you thought the videos at Apple weren't touched up or mocked up, you're living in Wonderland.

ok, fair enough, I still believe you're way to pessimistic about Leopard, but then again you won't be disappointed! Anyway, we'll find out in 19 days
post #22 of 32
Quote:
ok, fair enough, I still believe you're way to pessimistic about Leopard, but then again you won't be disappointed! Anyway, we'll find out in 19 days

Lemon Bon Bon 8)

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #23 of 32
resolution independence is real, and will be in everything in leopard. Not offering it will make your app the same as having a PowerPC app running on Intel. People will have little badges on their site that says "resolution independent" or something like that.

Apple is very, very serious, there is a whole new method of doing graphics, combining animations, icns files, and graphics as a whole. Apple is very serious about complete resolution independence in the shipping build of Leopard.
post #24 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Heck one guy (can't remember if it was Steve) had to switch to a backup because an app crashed during the keynote and wouldn't force quit.

Scott Forestal I think. If my memory serves me correctly; "I wish I could go back in time before that happened".
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #25 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

To me, it seems Leopard is so unfinished that there's either: a) a super secret build at 1 Infinite Loop, b) there are no super secret builds and Leopard will not be released for another 6 months.

Very interesting stuff there.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
Reply
post #26 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

Add in some surprise last minute top secret features: A GUI to end all GUIs. 'iPhone' support, iTV support, Front Row (neXt gen...), iLife 07(!) and...and...what ever else?!??!

I'm convinced now beyond a shadow of a doubt, that aqua will be swept out the door. There's three color scrollbars coming in Leopard. Sleek blue/gray (iTunes 7), black (iTunes 7), and white (Mail, and I'm guessing other places too).

Apple had specific job postings for this, after Tiger was released. Well over a year ago.

You'd be a fool to think brushed metal wont disappear completely. Be gone ya witch! So far the most used app that's useful, is Safari. Add another one or two features to Safari, revamp the UI, and without a shadow of a doubt you've got the worlds best browser there.

..by the way I hope you're right about iTV support, otherwise we're fucked!
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #27 of 32
I wish they'd use Myriad as the system font. They're already using it in the iPods etc...
OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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post #28 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


I have to say I have the same opinion. People are all saying Leopard is going to be great but I haven't seen any evidence yet beyond the ZFS stuff, which is going to be in Solaris anyway. Most of the things like Spaces, Time machine, Web clip etc are either just gimmicks or repackaged technology we've seen already.

I hope that QE2D is working. There is a small writeup of it at Ars from what was said, it makes a huge differenece in speed in some areas.

- Mark
post #29 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post


It could suffer the same fate as Quartz 2D Extreme.

What happened to Q2DE?? I thought it was going to be in 10.5?

- Mark
post #30 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutch pear View Post

I don't believe app developers need early access as all relevant UI elements will change automatically as they are provided by osX anyway (think scrollbar styles etc.).
I think apple is smarter than you seem to believe and that current Leopard builds contain all necessary -under-the-hood- changes developers need to update their apps. Then as apple introduces the new UI, the changed application-level elements are just automatically applied to all apps, no intervention needed.

I sincerely hope Apple don't think that, since it'll make a lot of mad developers!

Yes, widget changes are applied automatically, but what you (and many others) are forgetting is that apps contain a whole load of original artwork... all created to fit in with the GUI and maintain consistency of style. Redoing it all would require a lot of faffing about deciding on how best to do the art in the new style, co-ordinating designers... just finding out a list of everything that needs changing would take a while!

This would be just after Apple has asked us to redo all our art for resolution independence. They've just got developers to make new artwork at four times the resolution - if they ship an OS that makes that artwork useless before it's seen the light of day, there will be an outcry!

Amorya
post #31 of 32
Would resolution independence finally mean that 100% MEANS 100%?

I'm sick fed up of layout packages like Quark, Illustrator and InDesign where viewing a page at 100% doesn't even remotely equate to the size of a layout in real life.

There doesn't seem any point to having a perecentage system if it doesn't actualy equate to anything!
OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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post #32 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

Would resolution independence finally mean that 100% MEANS 100%?

I'm sick fed up of layout packages like Quark, Illustrator and InDesign where viewing a page at 100% doesn't even remotely equate to the size of a layout in real life.

There doesn't seem any point to having a perecentage system if it doesn't actualy equate to anything!

The percentage system relates to the output device. The screen and print will vary with varying dimesions of screen and print.
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