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Global warming vs our economy - Page 2

post #41 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Perhaps you can explain why we had so few storms this year, hmmm?



RETURN OF EL NIÑO YIELDS NEAR NORMAL 2006 ATLANTIC HURRICANE SEASON

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post #42 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Cuilla View Post

Don't you think that we'd already be going to these things if the cost/benefit trade-offs supported doing so?



Possibly.



I love it. People aren't making the choices I want them to make so let me try and force them to do it through government policy.



You have a lot to learn about economics and how effective your little plan would be.

What's more amazing is how he reaches for the tried and true "tax 'em" mentality before he considers other options. How about tax incentives? How about government funded research on these technologies so that people have choices to make?

The moment I can get the same convenience, performance and price out of an electric or biofuel car, I'll sign on the dotted line. But now...who can blame me for making a choice to use a conventional vehicle? Hybrids cost much more. Biofuels are just beginning to be deployed into the market. Electric cars are a joke in terms of performance. You've got to give people a real choice. When you do, they'll do the right thing for the environment.
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post #43 of 135
Thread Starter 
But the damage happens in the time it hits- which ...


Wait! Semantics my friend.... Why argue them?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Cuilla View Post

When was the last time everyone in the path of a hurricane didn't have about a week's notice that a) it was happening, b) it was going to hit, and c) an amazingly accurate prediction of where it was going to hit?
post #44 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

But the damage happens in the time it hits- which ...


Wait! Semantics my friend.... Why argue them?

I guess I didn't think I was arguing semantics. You seemed to be suggesting that hurricanes can develop instantly. Maybe I missed your point.
post #45 of 135
Thread Starter 
All of which goes out the window as Spline is nailing boards to his windows as another cat 5 hurricane is barreling at him.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Well you just said it yourself. There are factors beyond water temperature. Yes, existing hurricanes tend to feed on warm water. But there are other variables that may cancel out that "given."
post #46 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

All of which goes out the window as Spline is nailing boards to his windows as another cat 5 hurricane is barreling at him.

What?
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post #47 of 135
Thread Starter 
California has great incentives to put solar panels on yur home- but it still costs about 9k out of pocket.... but hey- it's a start.

Biofuel cars, electric cars.... man, compare the model T to today's nissan maxima. Tech will get better... . It's at the early stages, but it's coming along...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

What's more amazing is how he reaches for the tried and true "tax 'em" mentality before he considers other options. How about tax incentives? How about government funded research on these technologies so that people have choices to make?

The moment I can get the same convenience, performance and price out of an electric or biofuel car, I'll sign on the dotted line. But now...who can blame me for making a choice to use a conventional vehicle? Hybrids cost much more. Biofuels are just beginning to be deployed into the market. Electric cars are a joke in terms of performance. You've got to give people a real choice. When you do, they'll do the right thing for the environment.
post #48 of 135
Thread Starter 
Anything we say, purport, rationalize, surmise about weather won't mean much as the next hurricane hits FL and spline is in it's path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

What?
post #49 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

1) true. It would have to encompass many facets of reduction of green house gases. So you selling at some point?

2) Hurricanes sucka! They can happen overnight- especially the ones ramped up and supercharged by warmer waters. I am sure you've been in FL long enough to know that's not a B movie type of plot.

Are you interested in buying? I have a nice condo, built of steel and concrete, right on the lagoon, and it can probably resist a nuclear blast, much less a hurricane. It has hurricane shutters, so no need to nail up boards. My town (melbourne) actually got a direct hit from Frances in 2004. This was inconvenient, because I'm from the Northeast and had just moved down that summer. But I had plenty of time to evacuate. In fact, I waited until the last moment. Hurricanes go like 15mph. My car (of the time) could go much faster, especially when I-95 was empty.

Hurricanes are something Floridians know all about. There's a known, documented 27 year cycle. (I think it's 27 years, or about that). The only thing that upsets me about Katrina is that the government is so inefficient about fixing anything. They knew it was coming, they lived in reclaimed land. . . you have to expect that sometimes things aren't going to go your way.
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post #50 of 135
And JupiterOne...
post #51 of 135
Thread Starter 
Well, whatever helps you sleep at night. I am glad you have the best building materials to mitigate your risks and stay safe.

I live in California, so I hear ya about living with risks. We just had a 3.7 yesterday!

It will suck when we have a 7.0+ for sure.
post #52 of 135
Meh, by the time that severe hurricanes might become byproducts of global warming (if that actually occurs, hurricanes are caused by temp gradients, which may well be reduced by global warming) I'll probably be living closer to you, in NoCal.

And yes, I have given myself license to use the frowned-upon term, "NoCal."
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post #53 of 135
Thread Starter 
Nice- it's great here. The water sucks tho- not clear blue and warm like you're probably used to!

Also- it's NorCal- not NoCal .
post #54 of 135


Most of the storms stronger than normal occured in the Pacific this year but they are called Taifoons. Vietnam was hit badly lots of damage there, Japan had several huge storms. The US is not the world. Take of your blind fold maybe that'll help.
post #55 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

California has great incentives to put solar panels on yur home- but it still costs about 9k out of pocket.... but hey- it's a start.

Biofuel cars, electric cars.... man, compare the model T to today's nissan maxima. Tech will get better... . It's at the early stages, but it's coming along...

I have solar panels and a hybrid car. cost for 2.6kW system consiting of 18 BP solar panels 14,000.-(21,000.- invoice) installation included. I make 14 - 21 kwH/day. The panels have a 25 year warranty. (it is not known how long they last, the first ones from the 60s are still operating)
If I put 14,000 into a savings account @ 5% I only get 700/annum. My panels make me about 1,400/annum or about 10% return, completely inflation proof. When energy prices go up my divident goes up as well.

1 kwH solar saves about 1 pound of CO2 emission.
post #56 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

I have solar panels and a hybrid car. cost for 2.6kW system consiting of 18 BP solar panels 14,000.-(21,000.- invoice) installation included. I make 14 - 21 kwH/day. The panels have a 25 year warranty. (it is not known how long they last, the first ones from the 60s are still operating)
If I put 14,000 into a savings account @ 5% I only get 700/annum. My panels make me about 1,400/annum or about 10% return, completely inflation proof. When energy prices go up my divident goes up as well.

1 kwH solar saves about 1 pound of CO2 emission.

Nice. I think my dad is looking to install some solar panels, but the sunshine and the incentives in Maryland are less appealing.
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post #57 of 135


*Sits and waits for this technology to mature*

Seriously though, the home solar panel tech is looking better and better. Unfortunately I don't remotely have the money to install it any time soon. Would be interesting to have solar panels on a house built in 1912 though, talk about advancing technology! The roof faces east/west, would that be a negative factor? I know solar hot water panels benefit greatly from a southern alignment.
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post #58 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

Most of the storms stronger than normal occured in the Pacific this year but they are called Taifoons. Vietnam was hit badly lots of damage there, Japan had several huge storms. The US is not the world. Take of your blind fold maybe that'll help.


T-Y-P-H-O-O-N

Learn how to come even close to spelling it and maybe I'll take you seriously.
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post #59 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

California has great incentives to put solar panels on yur home- but it still costs about 9k out of pocket.... but hey- it's a start.

Biofuel cars, electric cars.... man, compare the model T to today's nissan maxima. Tech will get better... . It's at the early stages, but it's coming along...

That's my point...it's not even close to being "there" yet.
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post #60 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

Most of the storms stronger than normal occured in the Pacific this year but they are called Taifoons. Vietnam was hit badly lots of damage there, Japan had several huge storms. The US is not the world. Take of your blind fold maybe that'll help.



Are you talking to me specifically, or the original poster I replied to? I am well aware of tropical storms, or tropical cyclones, or Typhoons, seeing as I am a coastal engineer (or Research Hydraulic Engineer) for the last 20+ years or so! Also know a fair amount about ENSO, and it's potential consequences, ocean buoys used to measure ENSO (the only current surefire way to predict occurence and intensity of ENSO's BTW).

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #61 of 135
Thread Starter 
Ah- so you can resell your extra energy to the grid...

nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

I have solar panels and a hybrid car. cost for 2.6kW system consiting of 18 BP solar panels 14,000.-(21,000.- invoice) installation included. I make 14 - 21 kwH/day. The panels have a 25 year warranty. (it is not known how long they last, the first ones from the 60s are still operating)
If I put 14,000 into a savings account @ 5% I only get 700/annum. My panels make me about 1,400/annum or about 10% return, completely inflation proof. When energy prices go up my divident goes up as well.

1 kwH solar saves about 1 pound of CO2 emission.
post #62 of 135
Thread Starter 
But my point- you have to start somewhere.....


and it's definitely close- it's becoming not only more attractive- but more viable. I see hybrids all day out here in Cali. They made it so you can drive in the car pool lane as well.

It's all about incentive sin the mean time- but soon enough it will be the norm and incentives won't be necessary.





Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

That's my point...it's not even close to being "there" yet.
post #63 of 135
Thread Starter 
LOL.. he is right though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

T-Y-P-H-O-O-N

Learn how to come even close to spelling it and maybe I'll take you seriously.
post #64 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamac View Post

I have solar panels and a hybrid car. cost for 2.6kW system consiting of 18 BP solar panels 14,000.-(21,000.- invoice) installation included. I make 14 - 21 kwH/day. The panels have a 25 year warranty. (it is not known how long they last, the first ones from the 60s are still operating)
If I put 14,000 into a savings account @ 5% I only get 700/annum. My panels make me about 1,400/annum or about 10% return, completely inflation proof. When energy prices go up my divident goes up as well.

1 kwH solar saves about 1 pound of CO2 emission.

Electricity costs 0.07 / kWH, so your calculations are off

17.5 kWh/day = 6392 kWh/year = $447/year (3.2%/year, even after a government subsidy that gets added to your tax bill).
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post #65 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRR View Post

LOL.. he is right though.



It basically means "big wind." There are numerous spellings, "taifoon" is neither usual or unusual, but can be tai'fun or tai'foon, and a whole bunch of other miscellaneous asian origin spellings for "big wind." Of course, typhoon will get you tens of millions of hits on google versus hundreds for the other forms, AFAIK.

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post #66 of 135
Build more nuclear power plants. There is absolutly no co2 emissions from a nuclear reactor. The new design light water reactors will be much cheaper to build and maintain.
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post #67 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

Build more nuclear power plants. There is absolutly no co2 emissions from a nuclear reactor. The new design light water reactors will be much cheaper to build and maintain.

But there are CO2 emissions from the extraction and processing of fuel prior to use in a reactor, there are CO2 emissions from the perpetual need to store the waste products afterwards. Nuclear is even less sustainable than coal...
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post #68 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

But there are CO2 emissions from the extraction and processing of fuel prior to use in a reactor, there are CO2 emissions from the perpetual need to store the waste products afterwards. Nuclear is even less sustainable than coal...

Here is a little more info before you all start bashing me.

•\tTwo 1MWe power stations, one nuclear, one coal
•\tStations need 27 tons of uranium fuel (200 tons of U3O8), 3.3 million tons of black coal annually
•\tNuclear waste is 3% of the 27 tons, treated by the supplier at its cost
•\tCoal waste is 7 million tons of CO2, 200,000 tons SO2, plus toxins in ash
•\tNuclear industry saves 2.4 billion tons of coal waste pa. Coal plants still emit 7 billion tons pa
SAFETY: Coal plant deaths 6,400; Hydro 4,000; Natural Gas 1,400; Nuclear 31 in 13,000 reactor-years

And I forgt something. Just think of thousands of high paying jobs that would be created. Talk about a boost for the economic future of the country and the world for that matter.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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post #69 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

Here is a little more info before you all start bashing me.

\tTwo 1MWe power stations, one nuclear, one coal
\tStations need 27 tons of uranium fuel (200 tons of U3O8), 3.3 million tons of black coal annually
\tNuclear waste is 3% of the 27 tons, treated by the supplier at its cost
\tCoal waste is 7 million tons of CO2, 200,000 tons SO2, plus toxins in ash
\tNuclear industry saves 2.4 billion tons of coal waste pa. Coal plants still emit 7 billion tons pa
SAFETY: Coal plant deaths 6,400; Hydro 4,000; Natural Gas 1,400; Nuclear 31 in 13,000 reactor-years

And I forgt something. Just think of thousands of high paying jobs that would be created. Talk about a boost for the economic future of the country and the world for that matter.

All this is moot. There is not enough nuclear fuel to last us past our current fossil fuel deposites...
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post #70 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

All this is moot. There is not enough nuclear fuel to last us past our current fossil fuel deposites...

Plutonium which is a by product of nuclear fission could be used as fuel for reactors.
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post #71 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

All this is moot. There is not enough nuclear fuel to last us past our current fossil fuel deposites...



Welcome to the fossil fuel club!

In that case all alternatives are moot, since those fossil will always exist until used. The point is to reduce rates of CO2 emissions, by substituting lower CO2 emission fuels, nuclear is one option towards that path. Nuclear is available to us today, and if plant construction/operations are standardized, is the next cheapest alternative to fossil fuels.

If you are serious about attempting to solve the global warming problem, all options must be on the table.

Remember that it took nature several hundred million years to build up that stored carbon, that potential energy, man wants to consume that in a span of several hundred years, that's six orders of magnitude faster than it was deposited!

We can't stop that, but perhaps we can slow it down!

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post #72 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

All this is moot. There is not enough nuclear fuel to last us past our current fossil fuel deposites...

Here is some info on the worlds supply of uranium.

http://www.uic.com.au/nip75.htm
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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post #73 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

All this is moot. There is not enough nuclear fuel to last us past our current fossil fuel deposites...

Only because we aren't using breeder reactors yet, which would reduce our uranium consumption by 60 times. Nuclear fission is the way to go.
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post #74 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Only because we aren't using breeder reactors yet, which would reduce our uranium consumption by 60 times. Nuclear fission is the way to go.

As I recall, breeder reactors were the up and coming next generation of the nuclear industry in the late seventies, but they were deemed to dangerous because the fissel material is excellent weapons grade material. Our nuclear phyisist president Jimmy Carter put the kabosh on them.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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post #75 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Only because we aren't using breeder reactors yet, which would reduce our uranium consumption by 60 times. Nuclear fission is the way to go.

We are still pushing up to a wall... at least fossil fuels have the chance of being regenerated in 4 M years...

Solar is the way to go, be it wind, direct photovaltic current, etc....
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post #76 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

We are still pushing up to a wall... at least fossil fuels have the chance of being regenerated in 4 M years...

Solar is the way to go, be it wind, direct photovaltic current, etc....

These technologies you speak of may be economically feasable for residential consumers of electricity, but I do not believe they are for heavy industry. Maybe in seventy years when we will have exhausted the known supplies of uranium.
The ammount of wind mills and solar panels that would be needed to make the ammount of energy produced at one 500 mwe nuclear plant would be way too many.
I really don't know enough about photovaltic current to commet on that.

I know that GE makes wind generators that produce drom 1.5 to 3.6 mwe, but where are we going to put all of these wind mills. You need a lot of acerage for a wind farm. And lots of people do not like the eyesore that they are. I believe it to be the same for solar panels
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post #77 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

These technologies you speak of may be economically feasable for residential consumers of electricity, but I do not believe they are for heavy industry. Maybe in seventy years when we will have exhausted the known supplies of uranium.
The ammount of wind mills and solar panels that would be needed to make the ammount of energy produced at one 500 mwe nuclear plant would be way too many.
I really don't know enough about photovaltic current to commet on that.

I know that GE makes wind generators that produce drom 1.5 to 3.6 mwe, but where are we going to put all of these wind mills. You need a lot of acerage for a wind farm. And lots of people do not like the eyesore that they are. I believe it to be the same for solar panels

Do people like the eye sores of Nuclear power plants? or the large areas that are made uninhabitable by their presence?

That is a retarded argument.

Put wind farms on the US highways, for example.
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post #78 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Do people like the eye sores of Nuclear power plants? or the large areas that are made uninhabitable by their presence?

That is a retarded argument.

Put wind farms on the US highways, for example.

All I am saying is, it going to take one hell of a lot of wind mills to make almost 97,000mwe which is produced in the USA by nuclear now.
Is wind power reliable? I don't know.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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post #79 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post

All I am saying is, it going to take one hell of a lot of wind mills to make almost 97,000mwe which is produced in the USA by nuclear now.
Is wind power reliable? I don't know.

The weakest link would not be the generation stations...

All I am saying is that Nuclear is not THE answer. There isn't even An answer...
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post #80 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

The weakest link would not be the generation stations...

All I am saying is that Nuclear is not THE answer. There isn't even An answer...

I think nuclear is the answer for the short term, because of the jobs and the additional tax base that will be created.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. Thomas Jefferson
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