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Blu-ray vs. HD DVD (2007) - Page 5

post #161 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

BD has more capacity. I don't think that automatically makes it "better" technology. Is there anything else you think is better about BD besides potential capacity?

Even with its special protective spin coat, the vulnerability of the shallow data layer of a BD bothers me. Apart from a BD disc becoming permanently damaged, BD playback is more susceptible to failure due to dust, fingerprints, vibration, and disc warpage. I appreciate the more conservative, more forgiving engineering of HD DVD, which also better leverages the capabilities of existing DVD pressing facilities.

And while the studios might love it, as a consumer I certainly don't consider BD's greater effort (whether it eventually pays off or not) at DRM a plus.

I purchased a Toshiba HD DVD player a couple of weeks ago, and a few HD DVD discs, not because I felt certain that HD DVD would win, but because I preferred the technology, I felt things were leaning a little in favor of HD DVD, I wanted a new toy, and because -- as has turned out to be correct with LG's announcement today -- I was beginning to feel that the format war was going to drag on long enough to encourage the production of universal HD players.

Now my worries about building a library of HD discs in a dead-end format are greatly reduced. If LG does a decent job with their first universal player, I'll probably buy one right away, sell my Toshiba on eBay, and then start buying discs in either format, with a preference toward HD DVD, at least in the near term, for titles available in both formats.

Are you sure your concerns about the "vulnerability" of the data are actually an issue? That sounds pretty theoretical to me. I'm asking because I really don't know.
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post #162 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I checked that tracking site and I frankly don't find it credible. It lists like 6 stores with it in stock. I will bet real money that it's the bundled version.

Please.... once and for all..... PS3 is readilly available. You don't need to bet anything here... I'll save you the trouble and give you a link where you can buy one now.

No bunndle:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....prd65900050007

Bundles:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....prd65900050000

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....prd65900050006

It was also available from amazon, both 20GB & 60GB.

I'm sure other retails and other online shops will have them as well. Only thing scarce is the Wii.
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post #163 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Are you sure your concerns about the "vulnerability" of the data are actually an issue? That sounds pretty theoretical to me. I'm asking because I really don't know.



I think the whole hardcoat scratching issue argument against Blu-Ray is pretty bogus, IMHO. In fact that would be an inherent advantage given that DVD's typically have a mean rental cylce of 10-15 (on average, see wiki) before they become unplayable. You could get all boogity boogity boo about the 0.1mm (0.004") hardcoat, but think about the size (i. e. depth) of scratches on DVD's, they are typically one to two orders of magnitude less than the aforementioned hardcoat thickness. Try searching for user data/complaints on scratched unplayable Blu-Ray in the MSM, on the Blu-Ray.com forums, etcetera, I have yet to find any widespread issues with said hardcoat and playability issues. If anyone has seen such data please provide some links.

And since HD-DVD's use the exact same PC as standard DVD's, which format do you think will have a higher failure rate due to 100 micron size deep scratches? Once you get a scratch deeper than the hardcoat thickness, regardless of format, the disk will be unplayable. And since it takes much more pressure to penetrate Blu-Ray's hardcoat than DVD's PC, which do you think will last longer in "normal" (i. e. rugrat) usage?

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post #164 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

BD has more capacity. I don't think that automatically makes it "better" technology. Is there anything else you think is better about BD besides potential capacity?

Even with its special protective spin coat, the vulnerability of the shallow data layer of a BD bothers me. Apart from a BD disc becoming permanently damaged, BD playback is more susceptible to failure due to dust, fingerprints, vibration, and disc warpage. I appreciate the more conservative, more forgiving engineering of HD DVD, which also better leverages the capabilities of existing DVD pressing facilities.

Incorrect. It is HD DVD discs that incorporate the SAME exact protection of DVDs to HD DVD when there is that much more data to damage. DVD disc protection is certainly NOT forgiving. On the contrary to your earlier statement, BD is better at protecting your disc from dust, fingerprints, and scratches...

http://www.durabis.com/en/tec00100.htm

Although not all BD discs have Durabis, most movies incorporate some sort of Durabis equivalent.

So yeah, I would consider durability yet another advantage of Blu-ray on the tech side along with capacity, copyright protection, and throughput. All in all, it is well known that BD has the better tech.
post #165 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin C View Post

Yes, but it was still widely available for 9 months longer than the PS3.

Stating that the 360 has more titles than the PS3 is no way to back up an argument.

huh? what are you talking? how does that have anything to do with what i posted?


SDW- you're the one looking like a fanboy. people are posting you articles, and links to places that HAVE THEM IN FOR ONLINE ORDER. you can walk into my best buy right now and pick yourself up a ps3, and i dont live in a some remote town, try west palm beach, fl. is it because supply can meet the demand ? who knows for sure, but if you go by word of mouth (which is a pretty strong indicator for this industry) you'll see poor showing for the ps3.

also, stop with your pathetic attempt at calling me a wiiboy, i dont even like the damn console. the only console i own and prob will own is a 360, but it doesn't mean i cant recognize the positive launch nintendo has had
post #166 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixir View Post

huh? what are you talking? how does that have anything to do with what i posted?


SDW- you're the one looking like a fanboy. people are posting you articles, and links to places that HAVE THEM IN FOR ONLINE ORDER. you can walk into my best buy right now and pick yourself up a ps3, and i dont live in a some remote town, try west palm beach, fl. is it because supply can meet the demand ? who knows for sure, but if you go by word of mouth (which is a pretty strong indicator for this industry) you'll see poor showing for the ps3.

also, stop with your pathetic attempt at calling me a wiiboy, i dont even like the damn console. the only console i own and prob will own is a 360, but it doesn't mean i cant recognize the positive launch nintendo has had



Not to belabor the point, but this problem falls more appropriately within queueing theory, where all we know anecdotally, is the length of the queue (i. e. in storage/on the shelf). We don't know the queue's throughput, (i. e. we don't know what's going into/out of the queue). We also know that this is the post-holiday buying season (arguably a low point in consumer purchases), and that the PS3 has the highest price point of the three consoles, with the Wii being the lowest, I would also assume that per title cost is higher for the PS3 than the Wii (but please correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't think we can, at this time, judge the relative success of the 3 consoles, until we are out of this buying lull, or we see some hard data, perhaps by the end of this quarter, you all can declare a winner in the console wars!

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post #167 of 4651
not sure how valid this article is, but it makes sense for Sony to react in such way to save itself, and doomed on BD?..

To me, only thing it's helping with PS3 sales right now is the BD capability, since many of the HT folks have their eye on it as a cheapest BD player on the market. Maybe, Sony sees that and have been indentified as a bigger threat on Sony's balance sheet than they had realized? If 200K to 300K units are being used as BD player out of 2 to 3 million PS3 units, it's not that significant...but 200K to 300K units out of 800K total units is a big chunk and a bad news for Sony.

What do you guys think?..

http://www.gadgetnutz.com/modules/ne...?storyid=00264


Quote:
GadgetNutz's storybreaking reporter, The Bandito, has uncovered a developing story concerning Sony via his network of industry insiders.

On the heels of various industry reports of the lackluster sales of Sony's new Playstation 3 console up to, during, and through the Christmas season, it's no wonder that Sony feels internal pressure to reverse it's course to more profitable waters. Obviously, the number one deficit of the new electronic entertainment device is the sheer number of newly introduced technologies, each with it's own seemingly continuous chain of production pitfalls. This same collection of newly deployed technologies directly impacts the pricing, further straining the retail sales of the Playstation 3. Considering that HDDVD technology is moving towards a broader market of consumers, Blu Ray is taking a considerable hit regardless of the Playstation branding.


One doesn't have to pay close attenion, or even take a second glance, to see that Sony, as a large corporation, has dropped the ball in it's own court. It has been reported time and time again that Sony has been facing financial difficulties, having to lay off workers, close plants, and refocus parts of their business. What only a few expected, Playstation 3 sales failed to match even the reduced supply during this holiday season. The affect of this has rippled through the major electronics retailers, creating a need to ship stock from store to store, and further impacting what profit margins retailers expected to see from the launch of a major new platform. The slick new Nintendo Wii and the powerhouse Microsoft XBox 360 managed to dominate the market, taking full advantage of the price differential, supply problems, and even the imagination of the consumer market. The season, in reality, isn't even over, and there is already a new captain at the helm, an almost unprecedented event indicating changes to come.

At a cost of over two hundred dollars per drive, the Blu Ray is the force behind the massive cost of the Sony Playstation 3. It is speculated that Sony is bleeding some three hundred bucks per unit, and continues the wild trend of manufacturers losing cash on the console in expectations to get their money back on the software. However, with a scant dozen titles or so, Sony holds little hope of a quick turn around in their fortunes. From it's core, the powerful Cell processor,with it's poor production yields, has added pitfalls to it's on rollout that is compounded by the difficulty in mass producing the Blu Ray in the Playstation 3. The tremendous cost of product, let alone support and delivery costs, may have been a factor in the recent executive level staff changes, but that change (of executives) has pushed the importance of other changes up the ladder of importance.

Sony is rumored to be making drastic changes to recapture the market before losing even more of it's command share to the likes of Nintendo (the success story of the holiday season) or the XBox 360 (still suffering in the land of the rising sun, but gaining momentum everywhere else). In a move that is "aimed at family pricing," Sony is rumored to be working on a Playstation 3 that does not include the Blu Ray drive. Whether this will result in the current low-end model having a change, or a newer "entry level" Playstation 3, remains to be seen. However, this is in stark contrast to their previous, egocentric, statements regarding "what kind of consumer"* will be looking at the Playstation 3.

To further fuel the fire, Toshiba has been reported to be getting ready to announce at CES (The Consumer Electronics Show) a new HDDVD player in the sub-two hundred dollar range. If these reports hold to be true, Sony's Blu Ray hopes may be dashed in even more markets than just that of the video-game arena. The steep pricing of Blu Ray players already make the Playstation 3 the entry level model, and Toshiba may have just put the nail in the coffin of this format. This holiday season was Sony's chance to leap ahead of the HDDVD format, establishing Blu Ray in the consumer market.

Supply problems alone would have likely created problems with Sony's hopes about Blu Ray, but with lackluster sales it is nearly a forgone conclusion. This puts Sony in a terrible position of not only trying to turn their ship around, but if they aren't careful--it could very well sink. A Playstation 3 without Blu Ray technology may save the Playstation from the fate previously seen by Sega's Saturn, but it will be the death nail in the Blu Ray coffin.
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post #168 of 4651
bite- if that article is true, holy crapbag i'll start head hunting in here!
i'll pull out a pen, piece of paper, and start backtracking the older thread for some names

but we'll see
post #169 of 4651
it would make no sense for Sony to release a Blu-Ray free PS3? how would you play the games? they would still have to include an HD if they wanted to get sales from the sony online games, so while they MIGHT save some money they would also be denying themselves revenue from BD bames... makes no sense

They HAVE to stick it out no matter what.

if the consoles are as numerous in stores as reports are saying then they need to launch in europe ASAP to gain some more Hardware sales.
post #170 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

How do those publications have anything to do with current PS3 stock? Go check Wal-Mart and Target and Amazon and Circuit City and Best Buy and you'll see what I'm talking about. As of now, there is very little stock out there. When a shipment comes in, its gone in short order.

You made a highly dubious claim that you can't back up. You made it because you go to bed and pray every night that the PS3 fails and the Wii succeeds. I've personally got better things to do with my time, but whatever floats your boat.

I know you're not responding to me in this post, but I believe it's relevant to repost that my local WalMart has had two on the shelf for 8 days now. I still haven't been able to lay eyes on a Wii.

I have no doubt that PS3s are hard to come by in bigger cities, but here in my chunk of small town America it's not a problem. It was with the PS2 and 360 and is with the Wii however.

Quote:
Just don't come in here and start making stupid and outrageous claims and then tell others they're wrong.
post #171 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixir View Post

huh? what are you talking? how does that have anything to do with what i posted?


SDW- you're the one looking like a fanboy. people are posting you articles, and links to places that HAVE THEM IN FOR ONLINE ORDER. you can walk into my best buy right now and pick yourself up a ps3, and i dont live in a some remote town, try west palm beach, fl. is it because supply can meet the demand ? who knows for sure, but if you go by word of mouth (which is a pretty strong indicator for this industry) you'll see poor showing for the ps3.

also, stop with your pathetic attempt at calling me a wiiboy, i dont even like the damn console. the only console i own and prob will own is a 360, but it doesn't mean i cant recognize the positive launch nintendo has had


OK, one...you CANNOT walk into Best Buy and get one. It says "not available for in-store pickup." So that says NOTHING about stock.

Two, I posted several links that you promptly IGNORED. I'll tell you again: Go to Walmart.com, Target.com, Amazon.com, CircuitCity.com, etc. Tell me how many are just "sitting around" not bundled.

Quote:
yes, clearly i'm a Wii cheerleader, welcome to the argument bud. everyone in here knows i'm pro hd-dvd/360.

You certainly sound like a Wii cheerleader, I'll tell you that.
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post #172 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

I know you're not responding to me in this post, but I believe it's relevant to repost that my local WalMart has had two on the shelf for 8 days now. I still haven't been able to lay eyes on a Wii.

I have no doubt that PS3s are hard to come by in bigger cities, but here in my chunk of small town America it's not a problem. It was with the PS2 and 360 and is with the Wii however.

OK, that's a good example and I appreciate it. Elixir hasn't offered anything like that though. I live in suburban Philadelphia, so clearly it's different. Are you sure you saw single units?
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post #173 of 4651
Beyond that stupid console bickering, we should get back to the topic at hand.

Reasons HD-DVD Could "Win."

1. The "HD-DVD" name (I think that's big for consumers)
2. Potentially better durability
3. Lower player prices
4. Manufacturers can use existing facilities for pressing.

Reasons Blu-Ray Could "Win."

1. Better capacity
2. PS3 native Blu-Ray installed base
3. Larger consortium of support, inlcuding content providers
4. Mind share is arguably higher than HD-DVD at present

Others?
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post #174 of 4651
single units, not bundles. One 20 gig and one 60.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Beyond that stupid console bickering, we should get back to the topic at hand.

here here!


Quote:
Reasons HD-DVD Could "Win."

1. The "HD-DVD" name (I think that's big for consumers)
2. Potentially better durability
3. Lower player prices
4. Manufacturers can use existing facilities for pressing.

Reasons Blu-Ray Could "Win."

1. Better capacity
2. PS3 native Blu-Ray installed base
3. Larger consortium of support, inlcuding content providers
4. Mind share is arguably higher than HD-DVD at present

Others?


Lurking in these threads I've gotten a bit confused.. (imagine that) Can BluRay players play DVD or not? Or is it an option that the manufacturer decides whether or not to include? I think I've heard/read it both ways. If not then there's a pretty big "could win" for HD.

When I go HD I'll start buying HD, but there are plenty of my current titles that aren't worth re-buying, especially if my new player is any good at upscaling.
post #175 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Are you sure your concerns about the "vulnerability" of the data are actually an issue? That sounds pretty theoretical to me. I'm asking because I really don't know.

I've googled for hard data on field-use error rates, but haven't found anything yet, so this is largely a theoretical argument, but I think the reasons for concern are sound. Here's a reasonably good description of the two technologies from Sound and Vision Magazine, albeit from May 2005:

Inside Tech: Blu-ray & HD DVD

What I get from reading the above article is that the way the Blu-Ray laser has to focus on data so very close to the disc surface is that it's much harder for the laser to "see around" small scratches and surface contamination than is the case for HD-DVD. Even if the hard coat helps prevent scratches, and perhaps is somewhat resistant to dust and dirt, it's not like all dust and dirt will be magically repelled by this coating.

One thing that's got me a little confused is that I've heard some people say that not all Blu-Ray discs are being hard coated. Is this true? If so, and there's no protective cartridge for the discs as had been considered at one time, that sounds positively disastrous.
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post #176 of 4651
Quote:
Two, I posted several links that you promptly IGNORED. I'll tell you again: Go to Walmart.com, Target.com, Amazon.com, CircuitCity.com, etc. Tell me how many are just "sitting around" not bundled.

Actually, Amazon.com had 20gb models up for order a good portion of yesterday. Sold out by this morning, but they were there.
post #177 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

Can BluRay players play DVD or not? Or is it an option that the manufacturer decides whether or not to include? I think I've heard/read it both ways. If not then there's a pretty big "could win" for HD.

As far as I know, all of the current Blu-Ray players play standard DVDs, it's just more of a challenge (and hence probably more expensive) to build the optics to handle both formats. Both HD DVD and standard DVD have a data layer which is 0.6 mm below the disc surface. Blu-Ray's data layer is only 0.1 mm below the disc surface. It's trickier to build optics which will focus as close as 0.1 mm, then switch to 0.6 mm for standard DVDs and 1.2 mm for CDs.

Quote:
When I go HD I'll start buying HD, but there are plenty of my current titles that aren't worth re-buying, especially if my new player is any good at upscaling.

My Toshiba A2 does a pretty good job of upscaling standard DVD, but as impressive as it is to get such a good picture from a regular DVD, HD DVD still looks a lot better. I've got a 70" 1920x1080 TV, however -- the difference might not seem so great on smaller displays.
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post #178 of 4651
Backward compatibility: Blu-ray is fully backward compatible in that it can play Blu-ray discs, DVDs, AND CDs. I've yet to see anything "too challenging" about Blu-ray optics as most of the players have full backward compatiblility except for two which decided that CD playback wasn't important for some reason--the Sony and the Pionner standalones. Otherwise, the PS3, the Philips, the Samsung, and the Panasonic all play CDs and are fully backward compatible.

Blu-ray Hardcoat/Durability: The hardcoat is used on all Blu-ray discs. Nothing to worry about here, the hardcoat is part of the Blu-ray spec....

http://www.tdk.com/professional/marketing/brd3.html

Quote:
DURABIS protects the disc surface against scratches and resists smudges from fingerprints, providing error-free Blu-ray Disc performance. Hard coating technology pioneered by TDK is part of the Blu-ray specification, but only TDK has DURABIS, the most advanced hard coating formulation for Blu-ray Disc media.

In addition, if one knows that HD DVD incorporates existing DVD protection and this holds to be true...

http://www.durabis.com/en/tec00200.htm[/QUOTE]

Quote:
In comparison to conventional DVD media, discs incorporating DURABIS technology boast approximately 100 times greater scratch resistance.

A reasonable individual can conclude that the durability is indeed in Blu-ray's favor.

So, in summation, Blu-ray IS backward compatible and boasts better durability--along with the other superiorities in tech specs such as capacity and throughput.
post #179 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Beyond that stupid console bickering, we should get back to the topic at hand.

Agreed.

Quote:
Reasons HD-DVD Could "Win."

1. The "HD-DVD" name (I think that's big for consumers)
2. Potentially better durability
3. Lower player prices
4. Manufacturers can use existing facilities for pressing.

I can see some logic in #1, however SACD and other formats adding letters did nothing in terms of extending the success of a name. Plus, IMO, Blu-ray not only sounds cooler, but also rolls off the tongue a lot easier than H-D-D-V-D.

#2 doesn't hold any potential IMO. Clearly, Blu-ray has the better durability.

#3 isn't quite true either. You can get a Blu-ray player at $499 and an HD DVD player. Price is the same.

#4 makes no difference as the price to the consumer for discs is the SAME as well.

Quote:
Reasons Blu-Ray Could "Win."

1. Better capacity
2. PS3 native Blu-Ray installed base
3. Larger consortium of support, inlcuding content providers
4. Mind share is arguably higher than HD-DVD at present

Others?

I would go ahead and add better durability, and equal pricing (for both players and discs) to the Blu-ray list. Obviously, Blu-ray has the most going for it, it is just a matter of getting their other players down in price and out in mass.
post #180 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

I've googled for hard data on field-use error rates, but haven't found anything yet, so this is largely a theoretical argument, but I think the reasons for concern are sound. Here's a reasonably good description of the two technologies from Sound and Vision Magazine, albeit from May 2005:

Inside Tech: Blu-ray & HD DVD

What I get from reading the above article is that the way the Blu-Ray laser has to focus on data so very close to the disc surface is that it's much harder for the laser to "see around" small scratches and surface contamination than is the case for HD-DVD. Even if the hard coat helps prevent scratches, and perhaps is somewhat resistant to dust and dirt, it's not like all dust and dirt will be magically repelled by this coating.

One thing that's got me a little confused is that I've heard some people say that not all Blu-Ray discs are being hard coated. Is this true? If so, and there's no protective cartridge for the discs as had been considered at one time, that sounds positively disastrous.

Here is the part I find relevant:

Quote:
Bringing the data layer closer to the disc surface also increases Blu-ray's sensitivit y to surface defects like scratches, dust, and fingerprints. With CDs, DVDs, and HD DVDs, the defects are out of focus by the time the laser spot hits the data layer inside the disc, minimizing interference. The first Blu-ray prototype discs had disc cartridges to guard against surface contamination, but recent prototypes have had a hard-coat layer (which TDK uses on some of its recordable DVDs) that reduces data-corrupting disc damage. Nonetheless, for reliable operation, it'll probably be important to keep BDs as clean and scratch-free as possible (not a bad idea for any optical format).

It seems like the author is reaching there, speculating about durability. No?
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post #181 of 4651


Not to belabor the whole console thing but;



The second Xbox 360 revealed: codename Zephyr

Quote:
Ever wonder why Microsoft hasn't released an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360, or whether the AV port was really capable of digital out? Well, here's your answer: we landed pictures of what appears to be the second Xbox 360 -- the Xbox 360 v2, if you will -- codenamed Zephyr. (The original Xbox 360, if you recall, was codenamed Xenon.) The long rumored about and awaited update to the console won't just feature a new, cooler 65nm processor, it's also finally added an HDMI port for full digital 1080p pleasure, as well as a 120GB drive, just what the doctor ordered.

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post #182 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

A reasonable individual can conclude that the durability is indeed in Blu-ray's favor.

Which is more durable? A wooden crate full of ceramic coffee mugs or a steel crate full of crystal wine glasses? You let yourself get all impressed by how magnificently protective this hard coat is supposed to be, forgetting that Blu-Ray needs that kind of protection much more than HD DVD does.

Besides, durability and reliability are not always the same thing. As I'd said before, no one has made it clear how well the hard coat "resists smudges from fingerprints", or resists clinging dust. Surface defects -- be they permanent scratches or temporary contamination -- are going to be much harder for a Blu-Ray player to overcome. It's easier for smaller defects to corrupt proper reading of the raw data on a Blu-Ray disc, throwing you back on the need to rely on error correction.
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post #183 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It seems like the author is reaching there, speculating about durability. No?

This is more about reliability than durability, which, as I pointed out in the last post I just made, are related but not the same. Nothing beats hard data, which is in short supply, but the physics of what's being discussed is pretty straight forward -- surface defects, be they permanent damage or just temporary glop, will certainly be a greater obstacle for Blu-Ray than for HD DVD. How well Blu-Ray error correction compensates for this, and how well this works out in real-world disc handling and usage, is yet to be seen.
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post #184 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Beyond that stupid console bickering, we should get back to the topic at hand.



I tend to think that the "console wars" are very relevant to the HD "format wars."

Three consoles;

Wii ($250 MSRP, no HD (Hi-Def player))
Xbox 360 ($300 MSRP, $200 addon HD-DVD)
PS3 ($500 MSRP, HD Blu-Ray included)

Of the three, the Wii (cheapest) is "flying of the shelves," perhaps it's the price?
Of the three, Xbox 360 got the head start and now has an installed base (and significantly more titles) of ~6M units (September 2006), and estimated at ~10M now(?).
Of the three, PS3 is the most expensive and MAY be having slow sales, perhaps it's the price?

If the $200 Toshiba HD-DVD rumor at CES next week is true, if the PS3 rumors of slow sales are true, then the PS3 may just be "A Bridge Too Far."

Don't get me wrong, IMHO Blu-Ray has the better specifications, but the consumer is fickle, faddish, and cost consious. If the MSM plays up the PS3's poor sales angle, if the rumors have even a little credence, it could all be over rather quickly.

The whole point of discussing consoles at all, WRT the PS3, is an "economics of scale" argument, the more Blu-Ray mechs that are made, the lower their unit cost will be, the more cost competitive Blu-Ray players become WRT HD-DVD players. Selling alot pf PS3's can only help the Blu-Ray format, not selling alot of PS3's MAY hurt the Blu-Ray format.

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post #185 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Which is more durable? A wooden crate full of ceramic coffee mugs or a steel crate full of crystal wine glasses? You let yourself get all impressed by how magnificently protective this hard coat is supposed to be, forgetting that Blu-Ray needs that kind of protection much more than HD DVD does.

Besides, durability and reliability are not always the same thing. As I'd said before, no one has made it clear how well the hard coat "resists smudges from fingerprints", or resists clinging dust. Surface defects -- be they permanent scratches or temporary contamination -- are going to be much harder for a Blu-Ray player to overcome. It's easier for smaller defects to corrupt proper reading of the raw data on a Blu-Ray disc, throwing you back on the need to rely on error correction.



It's fairly trivial to remove dust and smudges/fingerprint oils, it's not fairly trivial to remove scratches. Both formats have improved ECC, both formats need improved ECC to offset the smaller pitch/size of the pits, of the two I'd take the one that was more scratch resistant.

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post #186 of 4651
Anybody here getting BluRay discs from Netflix? I've had a lot of DVDs from Netflix that looked horribly scuffed etc, but played beautifully. The only ones I had that wouldn't play right were physically cracked all the way through.

I imagine if BluRay discs can survive NetFlix they'll have good home reliability.
post #187 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

Anybody here getting BluRay discs from Netflix?

I have two HD DVDs from Netflix -- my first Netflix discs of any kind -- waiting to be viewed this weekend after showing up in the mail this week. It'll be interesting to see what shape they're in and how well they play too.
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post #188 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

It's fairly trivial to remove dust and smudges/fingerprint oils, it's not fairly trivial to remove scratches.

True, but if you find your movie viewing frequently interrupted by the need to pop a disc out and clean it because some trivial smudge or dust fleck you didn't notice when you put it in, and/or you have to ritually clean your Blu-Ray discs before every playing, like an audiophile playing vinyl, in order to avoid such interruptions, it would detract from the enjoyment of the format.
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post #189 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

True, but if you find your movie viewing frequently interrupted by the need to pop a disc out and clean it because some trivial smudge or dust fleck you didn't notice when you put it in, and/or you have to ritually clean your Blu-Ray discs before every playing, like an audiophile playing vinyl, in order to avoid such interruptions, it would detract from the enjoyment of the format.



IMHO, both formats will suffer the same dust/oil issues, both formats will need some handling care, both HD formats will have to pass the rugrat "tests."

IMHO, playability due to lack of scratching potential appears to favor Blu-Ray. In my own rugrat testing of DVD's, it's the animations that get hit hardest, and I can always remove the dust/oils, but for some reason I can't easily remove the 10's of thousands of sub-hairline scratches that occurs when draged across a carpet.

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post #190 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post


Lurking in these threads I've gotten a bit confused.. (imagine that) Can BluRay players play DVD or not? Or is it an option that the manufacturer decides whether or not to include? I think I've heard/read it both ways. If not then there's a pretty big "could win" for HD.

When I go HD I'll start buying HD, but there are plenty of my current titles that aren't worth re-buying, especially if my new player is any good at upscaling.

Any standalone BD or HD-DVD players would do a good job upscalling SD-DVD's, however, PS3 does not. The PS3 SD-DVD playback is known to be as good as PS2, which means it is terrible SD-DVD player, however xbox360 HD-DVD add on does great job upscaling SD-DVD's to 1080p via VGA.

Anyway, 2nd Gen HD-XA2 was just released and is supposed to be king of all optical players. It's equipped with HQV REON video processor under the hood and have been very well received and have had claims that it even improves HD-DVD performance as well as top notch SD-DVD upscalling playback. The MSRP is $999, but the street price is currently running around $799 to $899. Hehe.... hopefully, I can find a shelf space for this toy.
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post #191 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post



IMHO, both formats will suffer the same dust/oil issues, both formats will need some handling care, both HD formats will have to pass the rugrat "tests."

IMHO, playability due to lack of scratching potential appears to favor Blu-Ray. In my own rugrat testing of DVD's, it's the animations that get hit hardest, and I can always remove the dust/oils, but for some reason I can't easily remove the 10's of thousands of sub-hairline scratches that occurs when draged across a carpet.


Haha.... you just need a player that can play even the dirt....

I have tons of DVD's with such abuse from my little one and Oppo and $120 Pioneer DV-578A still plays them. It's funny that alot more expansive Denon won't.
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post #192 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

IMHO, both formats will suffer the same dust/oil issues, both formats will need some handling care, both HD formats will have to pass the rugrat "tests."

This is all guesswork here with a lack of hard data on real-world performance. While both formats will suffer from both issues, my guess is that Blu-Ray will suffer more from dust and smudges than HD DVD will suffer those things. HD DVD, while not as scratch resistant, will be able to shrug off light scratching, whereas if something does manage to scratch the hard coat of a Blu-Ray disc, the disc will be toast. HD DVD stands a much better chance of being salvageable by polishing out those scratches which can't immediately be shrugged off -- it should be fairly close to DVD in this regard, and on a handful of occasions I've gotten passed scratched DVD rentals with a little gentle application of toothpaste to polish out scratches.
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Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #193 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

Haha.... you just need a player that can play even the dirt....

I have tons of DVD's with such abuse from my little one and Oppo and $120 Pioneer DV-578A still plays them. It's funny that alot more expansive Denon won't.



There is definitely some truth there, I've owned 5 DVD stand alone players, and some are much better at playing "damaged" discs.

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post #194 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

This is all guesswork here with a lack of hard data on real-world performance. While both formats will suffer from both issues, my guess is that Blu-Ray will suffer more from dust and smudges than HD DVD will suffer those things. HD DVD, while not as scratch resistant, will be able to shrug off light scratching, whereas if something does manage to scratch the hard coat of a Blu-Ray disc, the disc will be toast. HD DVD stands a much better chance of being salvageable by polishing out those scratches which can't immediately be shrugged off -- it should be fairly close to DVD in this regard, and on a handful of occasions I've gotten passed scratched DVD rentals with a little gentle application of toothpaste to polish out scratches.



Changing the subject "slightly," that's one reason I'm against DRM (in general) and for the "fair use" principle, make copies, give the rugrats the copy, let them have at it. Another reason that I don't like the current HD formats, I can't make copies.

PS - I've never had much success removing scratches from DVD's, coatings don't work and polishing seems to take forever, but I've never tried toothpaste, I'll give that a go the next time I have a scratch related playability issue.

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post #195 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

Anybody here getting BluRay discs from Netflix? I've had a lot of DVDs from Netflix that looked horribly scuffed etc, but played beautifully. The only ones I had that wouldn't play right were physically cracked all the way through.

I imagine if BluRay discs can survive NetFlix they'll have good home reliability.

Here are some experiences with Blu-ray discs with Netflix...

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....hlight=netflix

You'll also notice that an aquaintance of one of the posters seems to have had a lot of trouble with the playability of the HD DVD discs while the Blu-ray discs appear to all playback flawlessly.
post #196 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

This is all guesswork here with a lack of hard data on real-world performance. While both formats will suffer from both issues, my guess is that Blu-Ray will suffer more from dust and smudges than HD DVD will suffer those things. HD DVD, while not as scratch resistant, will be able to shrug off light scratching, whereas if something does manage to scratch the hard coat of a Blu-Ray disc, the disc will be toast. HD DVD stands a much better chance of being salvageable by polishing out those scratches which can't immediately be shrugged off -- it should be fairly close to DVD in this regard, and on a handful of occasions I've gotten passed scratched DVD rentals with a little gentle application of toothpaste to polish out scratches.

It's hard to say what the heck you are going to scratch your disc with worse than a screwdriver, but if Blu-ray discs can still have flawless playback after a determined attack from such, I'd say a good hypothesis is that Blu-ray stands a much better chance in terms of reliability and durability than HD DVD which again employs the same protection as DVD (so much for technical innovation)...

http://news.com.com/Try+scratching+t...3-5455621.html

Furthermore, I'd say smudges, fingerprints, dust, and in the above case, ink, don't appear to give Blu-ray any playback problems so I'd say it is the least of you worries as compared to scratches.
post #197 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post



Changing the subject "slightly," that's one reason I'm against DRM (in general) and for the "fair use" principle, make copies, give the rugrats the copy, let them have at it. Another reason that I don't like the current HD formats, I can't make copies.

Yet...hopefully Blu-ray and HD DVD will start to employ Mandatory Managed copy that would allow us to make copies for our rugrats... I think the first to incorporate this feature would definitely help their cause.
post #198 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

http://news.com.com/Try+scratching+t...3-5455621.html

Furthermore, I'd say smudges, fingerprints, dust, and in the above case, ink, don't appear to give Blu-ray any playback problems so I'd say it is the least of you worries as compared to scratches.

From what I can tell, they torture tested a DVD using the same coating that will go onto Blu-Ray disc. That's not the same as torture testing a Blu-Ray disc, however, not by far. That DVD looks far from being unmarked by the onslaught it suffered. Just because data can still be read which is 0.6 mm below that mucked-up surface doesn't mean that Blu-Ray's much smaller data pits, resting only 0.1 mm below such a mess, could be read.

The depth of the data surface for DVD (which is the same for HD DVD) allows the playback laser to be very broad where it strikes the surface of the disc, often shining around mild scratches, dust, and dirt, coming to a sharp focus on the much smaller data pits after passing surface obstacles.

With Blu-Ray's data so close to the discs surface at 0.1 mm, it's much harder for a laser to "look around" surface defects at the data layer which is so much closer to those defects.

Show me similar torture tests done to an actual Blu-Ray disc, and I'll be much more impressed.
We were once so close to heaven
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Peter came out and gave us medals
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post #199 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

Any standalone BD or HD-DVD players would do a good job upscalling SD-DVD's, however, PS3 does not. The PS3 SD-DVD playback is known to be as good as PS2, which means it is terrible SD-DVD player, however xbox360 HD-DVD add on does great job upscaling SD-DVD's to 1080p via VGA.

Anyway, 2nd Gen HD-XA2 was just released and is supposed to be king of all optical players. It's equipped with HQV REON video processor under the hood and have been very well received and have had claims that it even improves HD-DVD performance as well as top notch SD-DVD upscalling playback. The MSRP is $999, but the street price is currently running around $799 to $899. Hehe.... hopefully, I can find a shelf space for this toy.

I don't know about SDs, but PS3 is apparently supposed to have superb picture quality for Blu-Ray movies.
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post #200 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I don't know about SDs, but PS3 is apparently supposed to have superb picture quality for Blu-Ray movies.

Only when it outputs 1080i or 1080p from 1080p24 source on the BD. It does not scale well up or down. Some 768p or 720p displays have decent deinterlacer and scaler to manage 1080i, but many older sets do not and will be an issue if they can tell.
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