Blu-ray vs. HD DVD (2007) - Page 5

Originally Posted by shetline

BD has more capacity. I don't think that automatically makes it "better" technology. Is there anything else you think is better about BD besides potential capacity?

Even with its special protective spin coat, the vulnerability of the shallow data layer of a BD bothers me. Apart from a BD disc becoming permanently damaged, BD playback is more susceptible to failure due to dust, fingerprints, vibration, and disc warpage. I appreciate the more conservative, more forgiving engineering of HD DVD, which also better leverages the capabilities of existing DVD pressing facilities.

And while the studios might love it, as a consumer I certainly don't consider BD's greater effort (whether it eventually pays off or not) at DRM a plus.

I purchased a Toshiba HD DVD player a couple of weeks ago, and a few HD DVD discs, not because I felt certain that HD DVD would win, but because I preferred the technology, I felt things were leaning a little in favor of HD DVD, I wanted a new toy, and because -- as has turned out to be correct with LG's announcement today -- I was beginning to feel that the format war was going to drag on long enough to encourage the production of universal HD players.

Now my worries about building a library of HD discs in a dead-end format are greatly reduced. If LG does a decent job with their first universal player, I'll probably buy one right away, sell my Toshiba on eBay, and then start buying discs in either format, with a preference toward HD DVD, at least in the near term, for titles available in both formats.

Originally Posted by SDW2001

I checked that tracking site and I frankly don't find it credible. It lists like 6 stores with it in stock. I will bet real money that it's the bundled version.

Originally Posted by SDW2001

Are you sure your concerns about the "vulnerability" of the data are actually an issue? That sounds pretty theoretical to me. I'm asking because I really don't know.

Originally Posted by shetline

BD has more capacity. I don't think that automatically makes it "better" technology. Is there anything else you think is better about BD besides potential capacity?

Even with its special protective spin coat, the vulnerability of the shallow data layer of a BD bothers me. Apart from a BD disc becoming permanently damaged, BD playback is more susceptible to failure due to dust, fingerprints, vibration, and disc warpage. I appreciate the more conservative, more forgiving engineering of HD DVD, which also better leverages the capabilities of existing DVD pressing facilities.

Originally Posted by Martin C

Yes, but it was still widely available for 9 months longer than the PS3.

Stating that the 360 has more titles than the PS3 is no way to back up an argument.

Originally Posted by Elixir

huh? what are you talking? how does that have anything to do with what i posted?


SDW- you're the one looking like a fanboy. people are posting you articles, and links to places that HAVE THEM IN FOR ONLINE ORDER. you can walk into my best buy right now and pick yourself up a ps3, and i dont live in a some remote town, try west palm beach, fl. is it because supply can meet the demand ? who knows for sure, but if you go by word of mouth (which is a pretty strong indicator for this industry) you'll see poor showing for the ps3.

also, stop with your pathetic attempt at calling me a wiiboy, i dont even like the damn console. the only console i own and prob will own is a 360, but it doesn't mean i cant recognize the positive launch nintendo has had

GadgetNutz's storybreaking reporter, The Bandito, has uncovered a developing story concerning Sony via his network of industry insiders.

On the heels of various industry reports of the lackluster sales of Sony's new Playstation 3 console up to, during, and through the Christmas season, it's no wonder that Sony feels internal pressure to reverse it's course to more profitable waters. Obviously, the number one deficit of the new electronic entertainment device is the sheer number of newly introduced technologies, each with it's own seemingly continuous chain of production pitfalls. This same collection of newly deployed technologies directly impacts the pricing, further straining the retail sales of the Playstation 3. Considering that HDDVD technology is moving towards a broader market of consumers, Blu Ray is taking a considerable hit regardless of the Playstation branding.


One doesn't have to pay close attenion, or even take a second glance, to see that Sony, as a large corporation, has dropped the ball in it's own court. It has been reported time and time again that Sony has been facing financial difficulties, having to lay off workers, close plants, and refocus parts of their business. What only a few expected, Playstation 3 sales failed to match even the reduced supply during this holiday season. The affect of this has rippled through the major electronics retailers, creating a need to ship stock from store to store, and further impacting what profit margins retailers expected to see from the launch of a major new platform. The slick new Nintendo Wii and the powerhouse Microsoft XBox 360 managed to dominate the market, taking full advantage of the price differential, supply problems, and even the imagination of the consumer market. The season, in reality, isn't even over, and there is already a new captain at the helm, an almost unprecedented event indicating changes to come.

At a cost of over two hundred dollars per drive, the Blu Ray is the force behind the massive cost of the Sony Playstation 3. It is speculated that Sony is bleeding some three hundred bucks per unit, and continues the wild trend of manufacturers losing cash on the console in expectations to get their money back on the software. However, with a scant dozen titles or so, Sony holds little hope of a quick turn around in their fortunes. From it's core, the powerful Cell processor,with it's poor production yields, has added pitfalls to it's on rollout that is compounded by the difficulty in mass producing the Blu Ray in the Playstation 3. The tremendous cost of product, let alone support and delivery costs, may have been a factor in the recent executive level staff changes, but that change (of executives) has pushed the importance of other changes up the ladder of importance.

Sony is rumored to be making drastic changes to recapture the market before losing even more of it's command share to the likes of Nintendo (the success story of the holiday season) or the XBox 360 (still suffering in the land of the rising sun, but gaining momentum everywhere else). In a move that is "aimed at family pricing," Sony is rumored to be working on a Playstation 3 that does not include the Blu Ray drive. Whether this will result in the current low-end model having a change, or a newer "entry level" Playstation 3, remains to be seen. However, this is in stark contrast to their previous, egocentric, statements regarding "what kind of consumer"* will be looking at the Playstation 3.

To further fuel the fire, Toshiba has been reported to be getting ready to announce at CES (The Consumer Electronics Show) a new HDDVD player in the sub-two hundred dollar range. If these reports hold to be true, Sony's Blu Ray hopes may be dashed in even more markets than just that of the video-game arena. The steep pricing of Blu Ray players already make the Playstation 3 the entry level model, and Toshiba may have just put the nail in the coffin of this format. This holiday season was Sony's chance to leap ahead of the HDDVD format, establishing Blu Ray in the consumer market.

Supply problems alone would have likely created problems with Sony's hopes about Blu Ray, but with lackluster sales it is nearly a forgone conclusion. This puts Sony in a terrible position of not only trying to turn their ship around, but if they aren't careful--it could very well sink. A Playstation 3 without Blu Ray technology may save the Playstation from the fate previously seen by Sega's Saturn, but it will be the death nail in the Blu Ray coffin.

Originally Posted by SDW2001

How do those publications have anything to do with current PS3 stock? Go check Wal-Mart and Target and Amazon and Circuit City and Best Buy and you'll see what I'm talking about. As of now, there is very little stock out there. When a shipment comes in, its gone in short order.

You made a highly dubious claim that you can't back up. You made it because you go to bed and pray every night that the PS3 fails and the Wii succeeds. I've personally got better things to do with my time, but whatever floats your boat.

Just don't come in here and start making stupid and outrageous claims and then tell others they're wrong.

Originally Posted by Elixir

huh? what are you talking? how does that have anything to do with what i posted?


SDW- you're the one looking like a fanboy. people are posting you articles, and links to places that HAVE THEM IN FOR ONLINE ORDER. you can walk into my best buy right now and pick yourself up a ps3, and i dont live in a some remote town, try west palm beach, fl. is it because supply can meet the demand ? who knows for sure, but if you go by word of mouth (which is a pretty strong indicator for this industry) you'll see poor showing for the ps3.

also, stop with your pathetic attempt at calling me a wiiboy, i dont even like the damn console. the only console i own and prob will own is a 360, but it doesn't mean i cant recognize the positive launch nintendo has had

yes, clearly i'm a Wii cheerleader, welcome to the argument bud. everyone in here knows i'm pro hd-dvd/360.

Originally Posted by Guartho

I know you're not responding to me in this post, but I believe it's relevant to repost that my local WalMart has had two on the shelf for 8 days now. I still haven't been able to lay eyes on a Wii.

I have no doubt that PS3s are hard to come by in bigger cities, but here in my chunk of small town America it's not a problem. It was with the PS2 and 360 and is with the Wii however.

Originally Posted by SDW2001

Beyond that stupid console bickering, we should get back to the topic at hand.

Reasons HD-DVD Could "Win."

1. The "HD-DVD" name (I think that's big for consumers)
2. Potentially better durability
3. Lower player prices
4. Manufacturers can use existing facilities for pressing.

Reasons Blu-Ray Could "Win."

1. Better capacity
2. PS3 native Blu-Ray installed base
3. Larger consortium of support, inlcuding content providers
4. Mind share is arguably higher than HD-DVD at present

Others?

Originally Posted by SDW2001

Are you sure your concerns about the "vulnerability" of the data are actually an issue? That sounds pretty theoretical to me. I'm asking because I really don't know.

Two, I posted several links that you promptly IGNORED. I'll tell you again: Go to Walmart.com, Target.com, Amazon.com, CircuitCity.com, etc. Tell me how many are just "sitting around" not bundled.

Originally Posted by Guartho

Can BluRay players play DVD or not? Or is it an option that the manufacturer decides whether or not to include? I think I've heard/read it both ways. If not then there's a pretty big "could win" for HD.

When I go HD I'll start buying HD, but there are plenty of my current titles that aren't worth re-buying, especially if my new player is any good at upscaling.

DURABIS protects the disc surface against scratches and resists smudges from fingerprints, providing error-free Blu-ray Disc performance. Hard coating technology pioneered by TDK is part of the Blu-ray specification, but only TDK has DURABIS, the most advanced hard coating formulation for Blu-ray Disc media.

In comparison to conventional DVD media, discs incorporating DURABIS technology boast approximately 100 times greater scratch resistance.

Originally Posted by SDW2001

Beyond that stupid console bickering, we should get back to the topic at hand.

Reasons HD-DVD Could "Win."

1. The "HD-DVD" name (I think that's big for consumers)
2. Potentially better durability
3. Lower player prices
4. Manufacturers can use existing facilities for pressing.

Reasons Blu-Ray Could "Win."

1. Better capacity
2. PS3 native Blu-Ray installed base
3. Larger consortium of support, inlcuding content providers
4. Mind share is arguably higher than HD-DVD at present

Others?

Originally Posted by shetline

I've googled for hard data on field-use error rates, but haven't found anything yet, so this is largely a theoretical argument, but I think the reasons for concern are sound. Here's a reasonably good description of the two technologies from Sound and Vision Magazine, albeit from May 2005:

Inside Tech: Blu-ray & HD DVD

What I get from reading the above article is that the way the Blu-Ray laser has to focus on data so very close to the disc surface is that it's much harder for the laser to "see around" small scratches and surface contamination than is the case for HD-DVD. Even if the hard coat helps prevent scratches, and perhaps is somewhat resistant to dust and dirt, it's not like all dust and dirt will be magically repelled by this coating.

One thing that's got me a little confused is that I've heard some people say that not all Blu-Ray discs are being hard coated. Is this true? If so, and there's no protective cartridge for the discs as had been considered at one time, that sounds positively disastrous.

Bringing the data layer closer to the disc surface also increases Blu-ray's sensitivit y to surface defects like scratches, dust, and fingerprints. With CDs, DVDs, and HD DVDs, the defects are out of focus by the time the laser spot hits the data layer inside the disc, minimizing interference. The first Blu-ray prototype discs had disc cartridges to guard against surface contamination, but recent prototypes have had a hard-coat layer (which TDK uses on some of its recordable DVDs) that reduces data-corrupting disc damage. Nonetheless, for reliable operation, it'll probably be important to keep BDs as clean and scratch-free as possible (not a bad idea for any optical format).

Ever wonder why Microsoft hasn't released an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360, or whether the AV port was really capable of digital out? Well, here's your answer: we landed pictures of what appears to be the second Xbox 360 -- the Xbox 360 v2, if you will -- codenamed Zephyr. (The original Xbox 360, if you recall, was codenamed Xenon.) The long rumored about and awaited update to the console won't just feature a new, cooler 65nm processor, it's also finally added an HDMI port for full digital 1080p pleasure, as well as a 120GB drive, just what the doctor ordered.

Originally Posted by marzetta7

A reasonable individual can conclude that the durability is indeed in Blu-ray's favor.

Originally Posted by SDW2001

It seems like the author is reaching there, speculating about durability. No?

Originally Posted by SDW2001

Beyond that stupid console bickering, we should get back to the topic at hand.

Originally Posted by shetline

Which is more durable? A wooden crate full of ceramic coffee mugs or a steel crate full of crystal wine glasses? You let yourself get all impressed by how magnificently protective this hard coat is supposed to be, forgetting that Blu-Ray needs that kind of protection much more than HD DVD does.

Besides, durability and reliability are not always the same thing. As I'd said before, no one has made it clear how well the hard coat "resists smudges from fingerprints", or resists clinging dust. Surface defects -- be they permanent scratches or temporary contamination -- are going to be much harder for a Blu-Ray player to overcome. It's easier for smaller defects to corrupt proper reading of the raw data on a Blu-Ray disc, throwing you back on the need to rely on error correction.

Originally Posted by Guartho

Anybody here getting BluRay discs from Netflix?

Originally Posted by franksargent

It's fairly trivial to remove dust and smudges/fingerprint oils, it's not fairly trivial to remove scratches.

Originally Posted by shetline

True, but if you find your movie viewing frequently interrupted by the need to pop a disc out and clean it because some trivial smudge or dust fleck you didn't notice when you put it in, and/or you have to ritually clean your Blu-Ray discs before every playing, like an audiophile playing vinyl, in order to avoid such interruptions, it would detract from the enjoyment of the format.

Originally Posted by Guartho


Lurking in these threads I've gotten a bit confused.. (imagine that) Can BluRay players play DVD or not? Or is it an option that the manufacturer decides whether or not to include? I think I've heard/read it both ways. If not then there's a pretty big "could win" for HD.

When I go HD I'll start buying HD, but there are plenty of my current titles that aren't worth re-buying, especially if my new player is any good at upscaling.

Originally Posted by franksargent



IMHO, both formats will suffer the same dust/oil issues, both formats will need some handling care, both HD formats will have to pass the rugrat "tests."

IMHO, playability due to lack of scratching potential appears to favor Blu-Ray. In my own rugrat testing of DVD's, it's the animations that get hit hardest, and I can always remove the dust/oils, but for some reason I can't easily remove the 10's of thousands of sub-hairline scratches that occurs when draged across a carpet.

Originally Posted by franksargent

IMHO, both formats will suffer the same dust/oil issues, both formats will need some handling care, both HD formats will have to pass the rugrat "tests."

Originally Posted by bitemymac

Haha.... you just need a player that can play even the dirt....

I have tons of DVD's with such abuse from my little one and Oppo and $120 Pioneer DV-578A still plays them. It's funny that alot more expansive Denon won't.

Originally Posted by shetline

This is all guesswork here with a lack of hard data on real-world performance. While both formats will suffer from both issues, my guess is that Blu-Ray will suffer more from dust and smudges than HD DVD will suffer those things. HD DVD, while not as scratch resistant, will be able to shrug off light scratching, whereas if something does manage to scratch the hard coat of a Blu-Ray disc, the disc will be toast. HD DVD stands a much better chance of being salvageable by polishing out those scratches which can't immediately be shrugged off -- it should be fairly close to DVD in this regard, and on a handful of occasions I've gotten passed scratched DVD rentals with a little gentle application of toothpaste to polish out scratches.

Originally Posted by Guartho

Anybody here getting BluRay discs from Netflix? I've had a lot of DVDs from Netflix that looked horribly scuffed etc, but played beautifully. The only ones I had that wouldn't play right were physically cracked all the way through.

I imagine if BluRay discs can survive NetFlix they'll have good home reliability.

Originally Posted by shetline

This is all guesswork here with a lack of hard data on real-world performance. While both formats will suffer from both issues, my guess is that Blu-Ray will suffer more from dust and smudges than HD DVD will suffer those things. HD DVD, while not as scratch resistant, will be able to shrug off light scratching, whereas if something does manage to scratch the hard coat of a Blu-Ray disc, the disc will be toast. HD DVD stands a much better chance of being salvageable by polishing out those scratches which can't immediately be shrugged off -- it should be fairly close to DVD in this regard, and on a handful of occasions I've gotten passed scratched DVD rentals with a little gentle application of toothpaste to polish out scratches.

Originally Posted by franksargent



Changing the subject "slightly," that's one reason I'm against DRM (in general) and for the "fair use" principle, make copies, give the rugrats the copy, let them have at it. Another reason that I don't like the current HD formats, I can't make copies.

Originally Posted by marzetta7

http://news.com.com/Try+scratching+t...3-5455621.html

Furthermore, I'd say smudges, fingerprints, dust, and in the above case, ink, don't appear to give Blu-ray any playback problems so I'd say it is the least of you worries as compared to scratches.

Originally Posted by bitemymac

Any standalone BD or HD-DVD players would do a good job upscalling SD-DVD's, however, PS3 does not. The PS3 SD-DVD playback is known to be as good as PS2, which means it is terrible SD-DVD player, however xbox360 HD-DVD add on does great job upscaling SD-DVD's to 1080p via VGA.

Anyway, 2nd Gen HD-XA2 was just released and is supposed to be king of all optical players. It's equipped with HQV REON video processor under the hood and have been very well received and have had claims that it even improves HD-DVD performance as well as top notch SD-DVD upscalling playback. The MSRP is $999, but the street price is currently running around $799 to $899. Hehe.... hopefully, I can find a shelf space for this toy.

Originally Posted by SDW2001

I don't know about SDs, but PS3 is apparently supposed to have superb picture quality for Blu-Ray movies.