Blu-ray vs. HD DVD (2007) - Page 6

Netflix is magic. You'll like it.

Hey everyone. I've been lurking in this post and felt like it was time for me to get a few things off my chest about the state of these hi-def formats and to address some of the misinformation being spread about the consoles or add fuel to the fire, however you see it is fine.

My setup is not great but I'm pretty proud of it. I purchased a Samsung HPR4272 plasma tv last year and got both the XBOX 360 and the PS3 at launch(well two weeks after).

I work in the VG industry and have a vested as well as personal interest in seeing both of these consoles do well (although I'm partial to the PS3 since it's my newest toy). I'll try to shed some unbiased light on the situation with the consoles and how that relates to HD-DVD vs Blu-ray.

First and foremost, the PS3 and the 360 are both awesome machines and will serve their owners well. As far as the hardware and the manufacturers' commitments to making these consoles the centerpiece of your Entertainment Center go they are leaps and bounds above their predecessors. Software is just starting to come into its own, which is why the Wii can even come out right now.

Contrary to the information that is being spread around here, the 360 is not kicking the PS3's ass. In reality, these two are both being bested by the Wii - an almost perfect parallel to the Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD vs SD-DVD race that is currently going on. When the XBOX 360 launched in 2005, with no "next-gen" competition, it sold only 607,000 units in North America. The PS3 has been estimated to sell 750,000 units in North America in about the same time period and in the midst of a 3-way race no less.

Yes, it is possible to find PS3s on store shelves now. Please, please keep mentioning this. Most consumers aren't thinking of it in the same way that the Blu-ray/HD-DVD proponents are. They remember last year and feel like they won't have a chance to get a PS3 until March and don't want to needlessly go into a store "yet again" only to be treated like an idiot for inquiring about its availability. I also think that it is going over some peoples' heads that Sony was able to turn less than 200,000 available units at launch into 750,000 in a month and a half with supply still coming in every 1-2 weeks.

Unfortunately for Sony I wouldn't recommend the PS3 just yet to anyone that does not have or is not planning on purchasing an HDTV as large or larger than 50" or one that can accept 1080p inputs. The 360 games are looking better and better but have a lot less going on than the PS3 Games (RFOM or MotorStorm particularly). At screen sizes under 50" (and without 1080p), it's hard to say that one looks better than the other and the large number of dynamic objects as well as higher resolutions aren't as impressive. With the price factor, the larger community, and larger game selection the 360 is a no brainer for most HDTV owners. However as Sony's exclusives come into play, I'm sure it won't be as cut and dry in the future.

This problem also carries itself over to HD movies. Without 1080p or a large screen, there is not a big enough jump between a current movie on Blu-ray and a good upconverted DVD (this is not to say that new releases won't increase the gap). The same can be said for HD-DVD on the 360. I'm not sure if everyone here is an AV enthusiast, but I can tell you that more than half of my office was annoyed that most of the movies will "feature" black bars because the 16:9 aspect ratio of HDTVs does not match up with the aspect ratios the movies were recorded in. I foresee it taking some time to get most of America used to only using 2/3 of their 27"-36" TV when watching a movie.

Something else I thought should be mentioned is that M$ is definitely in the HD-DVD camp, but they are beholden only to themselves. They may be offering an HD-DVD drive, but they care more about their digital download service where they charge their subscribers for downloading SD and HD movies. So, while people may want to include the HD-DVD drive as an HD-DVD player keep in mind that it really was just another bulletpoint for them to match up with the PS3. They want people to download movies they don't want them to buy/rent hard copies of them.

I'm finding it hard to believe you work in the field you say you do and never mentioned that on launch there was only one high def game on the PS3, and it's highest resolution is 720p, and I think that still holds true, whilst mentioning that "The 360 games are looking better and better" without mentioning resolutions of any games. You seem somewhat uninformed. And frankly I'm not really buying much of anything else you said either.

haha.... tough crowd....

it's only his 2nd post, let him unload a little more. Anyway, thanks for sharing your personal view of things. When I read that you are working in the business, I thought you're going to spill out some trade secrets for the upcoming CES...... I guess that was my wishful thinking. Eitherway, I do respect everyone's view as long as they can back it up with facts or factual hypothesis..... Welcome to the debate......

With any luck, TOTALHD will put this whole saga to an end.

TotalHD is a hybrid disc with Bluray on one side, HD DVD on the other. Keeps everyone happy.

Sorry to disappoint. It was my 2nd post and I didn't feel that detailing the launch lineups of either console was productive to the adoption of Blu-ray Vs. HD-DVD. I was wrong. I guess there is an interest and a way to correlate them.

Umm, one high def game on the PS3 and it's highest resolution is 720p!?!? I only mentioned the two I did because they were good ways to guage the difference between the awesome texture/animation route of the 360 and the dynamic worlds and numerous moving objects on the PS3. I guess you are talking about Resistance: Fall of Man - great game by the way. May I ask why you felt the need to cast aside the following 1080p capable games?

Marvel: Ultimate Alliance
Tony Hawk's Project 8
NBA 07
NBA 2K7
Genji
Full Auto 2

Got off topic on my earlier post so will try to reign it in here. The reason I mentioned 1080p and gave my nod to the 360 is because at this time an HD movie is not going to be worth the 50%+ price increase to most people without it or a large TV, especially if they don't have a surround sound system. So if you are a gamer with a nice setup and/or an AV enthusiast looking to get into HD movies then a PS3 is a great investment and will be better for you in the long run. Most people don't fall into this category and will be recommended by almost everyone to either get a 360 or wait (and get the TV first).

Retailers know this, publishers know this, and console manufacturers knows this. Sony made a "future-proof" machine because they didn't and still don't expect the PS2 to become obsolete yet. Most analysts and reviewers have berated them for including the Blu-ray drive because it drove the cost of the machine up but Sony is looking at it as a way to drive the cost of a Blu-ray player down and gather adoption rates much higher than a stand-alone product would allow. They are pumping the supply lines and keeping the stock available (unprecendented for the Playstation Brand which usually drags its feet in North America) because they know that's the only way that AV enthusiasts are going to buy it. If you spent 3k+ on your newest TV and have a setup that is comparable or higher, chances are you do not want to wait in line with college kids willing to camp out a week before a system launches. They are catering to the AV guys because they know they have to appease the studios and make Blu-ray work first in order to force all of the game publishers to write to Blu-ray instead of DVD.

When it comes to games, everyone will tell you dealing with Sony is like pulling teeth and dealing with Microsoft is a walk in the park in comparison. Most publishers (except EA - although it's debatable now) were forced to deal with Sony on Sony's terms and it was rubbed in at every chance. You couldn't catch a break. Microsoft being the new guy and the underdog with big pockets would go out on a limb and provide customer support and relations that were above and beyond Sony even when you were working on a Sony "system-seller".

The next-gen was a clean slate for everyone and pretty much demanded that Sony get on their knees and beg for forgiveness. Sony knew where they stood with publishers but they still wouldn't change their tune. They still gave us the, "FU we're Sony you'll follow us because you can't afford not to". They let go of a lot of exclusives (that some would argue helped make them), they poorly promoted the system at game events, and they launched with a mere fraction of the units they promised to. Some would see this as Sony dropping the ball. Others, like myself, would see this as Sony stating their true agenda - HDMI in both configs, no component cable in package, an FPS as their premier launch game, etc... - Sony wanted the American home theaters first and gamers second.

Damn, I did it again. Anyway, I said all that to say this. Sony is so committed to making Blu-ray work that they teamed up with international rivals, they are willing to sacrifice one of their best brands, and they sold out their homeland. Microsoft is so committed to HD-DVD that they released a digital download service that doesn't require any physical media through XBOX Live and "is rumored" to be releasing a newer version of the 360 with HDMI connect and 6x more HD space. The war really boils down to Toshiba and Universal against the rest of the world, with Microsoft financing HD-DVD propoganda to buy time for their Home and Entertainment Division. HD-DVD holds out as long as Microsoft keeps promoting the war but in the long run it is set up to fail. Which with the release of the Zune, them hitting their oh so important "10 million" XBOX 360 number, and the emergence of Live Anywhere suggests that it will be coming a lot sooner than anyone expects.

Doesn't the HD-DVD viewing condition really depends on the user?.... It is so subjective to set up.... There is a THX recommended (screen diagnal size)/(viewing distance) within the allowable viewing angle..... However, it also depends on the individual eye sight.... some people can see more/less than you and I.... Either way.... for any display ranging from 40" to 50" with viewing distance of 4 to 10 feet, there's no mistake about being able to tell HD vs. SD content. Whether one has 720p or 1080p screen.

Exactly. I have Panasonic 42" 1080i set. Not 1080p. Either way you slice it, the HD content looks much better. Secondly, I bought I PS3 because, well, I like video games and I never had a PS2. The Blu-Ray drive is really a bonus for me. I'll post on how it looks tonight...I'm hooking everything up for the first time. Must get another HDMI cable first!

Yep, the 1080 part of 1080i or 1080p is what's really most important. As long as a 1080-line display device does half way decent de-interlacing, the difference between 1080i and 1080p is subtle at best.

I guess we could talk about eye charts (some people have 20:20 (normal vision), some baseball players have 20:10, and I have 20:400 (unaided)) or angular resolution, but in general it does come down to angular resolution, so the distance one is from the object determines how much detail one sees. For instance, you are usually 1-2 feet from your computer monitor, and perhaps 5 (kinda close for games) to 15 feet (kinda far for home theater) for viewing your TV. But in either case the angular resoluton is the same, stand 30 feet (or so) from a 60 inch HDTV and I doubt most people would know if the signal being fed to the TV were SD or HD because you don't have sufficient angular resolution at that distance.

The other aspect of vision (and hearing) is how you process the raw data, how observant you are. This has some relevance to this whole HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray debate in the discussion about compression artifacts, if you have trained your eyes/mind to look for the slightest artifact versus someone who has not, see what I mean. For me, if I don't have my "must see compression artifacts" knob set to it's highest setting, it's amazing what I wouldn't notice in "normal" viewing.

If you aren't looking for the details, you might not see the details, or you can't see the details, even though they are there.

Hm... If your panny is a PDP 42", I don't think there is a 1080i set model. It would accept 1080i doesn't mean it will properly display 1080i, which is 1080p. Technically, 1080i processed the wrong way would give you 540p only or bobbing (line doubling) instead of weaving which happens on current HDTV's.

On your display, 1080i from PS3 may not do justice. if PS3 would scale to your display native resolution, then things would look better/sharper. However, the PS3 does not scale and that's the limitation of the gaming console acting like a optical disc movie player.

We'll, I see how it looks. Eventually everything will run through at Denon AVR, one that can uconvert and upscale video. That's a little ways off though.

Dude, I was replying to hmurchison, and referring to how he tried to back up an argument by stating this:


Then I said:


Then you said:


Then what I said replying to that was referring to what hmurchison said in the first place about the 360 selling better than the PS3.



You walked your way right into that without even realizing that I was referring to hmurchison. Wow...

In the PS3 availability vein, I was at Meijer today and they had 8 in stock. 4 20Gb and 4 60 Gb. Individual units as far as I could tell. However, I don't know what the "bundle" referred to several times in this thread is, so I could be mistaken I guess (but I don't think so).

I agree with you both. I have a 42" TV as well and can tell the difference easily. To some degree how much of a difference does depend on the person and distance from television. The reason why I say 50"+ and/or 1080p is because most people are going to be looking for the same kind of jump that broadcast TV to HDTV gave. But it's not as apparent from DVD (especially upscaled DVDs) to HD-DVDs/ Blurays regardless of the viewing distance. IMO, with the batch of movies I've seen on both formats (upscaled through XBOX 360 DVD/PS3 Blu-ray)* if you have under 50", you can get away with watching upscaled DVDs and get over that it's not HD. However, when we tested both versions of "Blackhawk Down" on a 50" Panasonic DLP the difference was much more apparent. The added sharpness really makes a difference because the screen is almost a third larger with the same amount of pixels. At this size, everyone sees a noticeable change which makes paying extra or waiting for the HD version much more pallatable.

*"Four Brothers", "Devil Wears Prada", "Kingdom of Heaven", "Talledega Nights", "Blackhawk Down", "Mission Impossible III"

As much as it is important to have the right size of display, the right source of view material can play even bigger role. Check out King Kong and Hulk in HD-DVD on 1080p display.... there's no other source material available that can match the jaw dropping PQ, not even from any of BD titles being offered as of now. Some source material is in the class of it's own.... beyond Hi-Def.

I'll check it out. Blackhawk Down was praised by the Blu-ray guys at avsforum.com as being a top tier PQ title so I chose that one to do the comparison.

On a side note, when I got my PS3 I couldn't wait for Netflix to get the Blu-rays to my house so I went to Blockbuster and rented one of their titles. They tried to get me to sign up for their online stuff but I didn't want to waste time. Does anyone on this forum use Blockbuster's online service? I've noticed that it is cheaper than Netflix and in my case would be more convenient since my wife prefers to select stuff in a store and it's right up the street. Can anyone that uses it or knows someone that uses it offer a comparison to Netflix?

uhh the xbox 360 launched in all 3 territories and had limited supply for a long time so it really isn't a straight comparison of demand (kicking ass on either side). the 700k isn't even a definite. also its of importance to realize the ps3 is sitting on floors right now either because their supply is meeting demand or people are just lacking interest. your theory on why consoles may be available is pretty comical to be honest.

anyways, the importance really isn't about launch figures because if the 360 had a million units to sell to the NA market on launch they would have sold all of it. if sony is starting to meet demand at close to a million units right after launch (assuming this is what is going on) then thats a problem.

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/01/06/ps...uy-com-still/- SDW what more do you want from me? u want me to get a best buy representative to give you a ringa ding ding?

Bad link. You need to take that dash off the end for the link to work: http://www.joystiq.com/2007/01/06/ps...buy-com-still/

Well my set accepted 1080p. My report is mixed though.

I tried Madden and I must say, it looks incredible. I'm going to try Resistance today.

I also watched the BRD of Talledega Nights. I was less than pleased. The film had a grainy look, which I don't really understand. Have you seen this before, and if so, what is the issue? I'm connected via HDMI, by the way. I'm not sure if the grain is on the film (could be). It wasn't present all the time, which is what makes me wonder about it. Fade in and fade out were not smooth either, which I've seen occasionally with other movie. I don't know the term for it, but it's almost like the lighting was not even...like it was blocky or pixelated.

This system is a big adjustment for me as I never even owned a PS2. More later.

Edit: I am still confused on the 1080i issue. My understanding was that my set couldn't accept 1080p. I'm still missing something....

I was in Wal-Mart and Circuit City yesterday, and there were no unbundled PS3s. Wal-Mart had even sold out of controllers. CC had a few controllers. Games were well stocked.

Even if you can show Best Buy has them and you can see a few units here and there, that doesn't mean it's "sitting around." Supply is extremely limited, which is my only point.

I have Blockbuster's online service, and I've got to say I've been quite pleased with it. I've got the $14.99/mo deal where you are able to rent two movies from the online service at a time and as soon as you turn them in, you can get a new two at unlimited intervals depending how soon you can watch them. What's more even appealing now to me is the fact that you can now turn in your movies that have been sent to you in the mail to your local Blockbuster store, and you can exchange them for any movie in the store and they'll send the mail movies back for you (so essentially, you have movies to watch as your queue is cleared and new movies are sent to you). You also get a free movie rental coupon a month, and other specials available to you, like $5.99 previously viewed movies, if you don't mind used discs.

Anyhow, just a brief description. Lata.

Disney Releasing Large Slate of Blu-ray for 07...

http://www.digitalbits.com/#mytwocents


Ohhhh, Cars ought rake in the dough!

I have netflicks, and I was wondering a few things about the BB service. How long does it take for movies to arrive once they are sent, and how long does it take from your mailbox to your online que page knows they have them back?

This Ars Technica article might help, Head start: the Xbox 360 and the next generation.

It has to do with upscaling (or downscaling as the case may be), I believe this is similar to the way DVD is upscaled to HD. Xbox uses Ana (supposedly the next version would be named Hana (so says the rumor mill)) a HW upscaler, while the PS3 must use SW. Right now if your HDTV doesn't support 720p (older sets) than the PS3 downconverts to 480p (someone correct me if I'm wrong), conversely if your HDTV supports 720p than of course you can watch at that screen resolution, and (supposedly) watching a 720p on a HDTV at 1080i/1080p looks better on the Xbox due to the Ana HW upscaling (and similarly for DVD's viewed on the Xbox since they are upscaled to HD while on the PS3 will be viewed at 480p (I believe, but again someone correct me if I'm wrong)).

Make sure you have the latest PS3 firmware (v1.32), although I don't think it addresses all the scaling issues at present (and it may well never).

Hm... maybe you got a 1080p set?... I doubt it, because smallest 1080p PDP was 50" Pinoneer Elite. It's strange becasue even some early 1080p LCD's from sharp didn't accept 1080p input and if yours can, it definitely a mistry. Are you sure your PS3 is outputing 1080p or 1080i? Most times, you can look into the display info setting and observe data input. What's is your display model#?

Eitherway, the PQ with Talledega Nights is normal. It's a Sony product BD movie and all Sony's releases were similar to SD quality, even the 50GB dual layer releases. I have a BD version of The Fifth Element, which is one of the worst PQ BD movies known to man. It's almost like the Superbit verion of SD-DVD.

What's cool is that if you turn them into the store, they scan the movies and your online mailbox/queue is updated and the next movies in your queue are sent. From what I've seen it only takes a couple of hours for the info to be updated online.

Once the movies are sent, it usually takes like two to three days to get to you, but at least you have the movies that you picked up in the store to tide you over.

Callin bull-sh%$ on this one. Notice that most of the movies ol bitemymac quotes to you are ones in the initial launch of movies? Stuck in his time warp.

Actually, besides Talledega Nights, Sony has many quality (4 stars and above) BD releases in Black Hawk Down (50 GB), All King's Men, Click (50 GB), Monster House, Tears of the Sun, and it's most recent release which recently got a perfect 5 star rating called the Covenant.

Sorry, bitemymac, you're spewin crap again.

The Blu-ray onslaught at CES 2007 begins...

http://www.samsung.com/common/micros...2007_ce11.html




MSRP expects to be $799, so that's $200 less than the HD DVD XA2!!! So yo can expect to see this guy to sell even less than that!

Not sure how your opinion is as credible as someone who had both, since you're just sitting on the sideline without having to see neither in the Home Theather setup. At best, all you do is quote this and that.....but most annoyingly, your posts contain fanboyism towards Sony and nothing more. So, show me the report card of Sony production movies... including BD50 ones.... average 3.5/5 stars?

Anyway, the new Samsung BD player at $799 will be killed by PS3 as it is already killing every standalone BD player sales. Also, don't forget that LG announced HD/BD universal player at $1199 and Toshiba just added another mid-line HD-DVD player HD-A20 for $599 to answer Sammy. So... $499 (HD-A2, soon to be cheaper - $299 within 6 month), and $599 HD-A20, and the high end HD-AX2 which is getting raving reviews and people call it as the best Hif-Def format player on the market which also is best SD-DVD upconverting DVD player availabe.

All in all, I hope Sammy's new BD player doesn't have the same problem it did from the 1st gen player. The underscaning and the NR setting issue was annoying. I'm glad I returned it in time for a full refund.

Ahh, it is obvious we all have to consider how your heavy monetary investment in HD DVD is effecting your crediblility as well,...notice how whether the status of your monetary investment is a two way street there?...and not really an important factor for that matter as I've seen both quite regularly as I have family and friends to show me first hand. All I see is some one simply rationalizing and throwing out blatant lies as to try and justify his purchase. Quite pathetic IMHO. The simple fact of the matter is I called you out on your lie, and it is truly a lie. Stop acting like Sony killed your first born or something, and try to be somewhat objective in your comments rather than blatantly posting FUD.


Lets not forget that, the PS3, it is confirmed, shipped 1 million consoles in the US by the end of 2006...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...jc&refer=japan

How close is HD DVD in penetration of the market as compared to Blu-ray now?...

Don't kid yourself, Sammy's not going to be killed by the PS3, HD DVD certainly will be the main reciepient of effected sales. Also, let's not forget the other major players on Blu-ray's bandwagon as well--Sharp, Pioneer, Panasonic, and Philips. We have yet to hear from them, but it ought to be interesting. Couple this with announcements like the ones we heard from Disney today, but I'm sorry to inform you my friend, HD DVDs days are looking more grim by the minute.

What lies?....... If sharing a personal experience is considered lies...then be it. I guess everyone with an opinion or any disagreement with you would also be considered a lie to you, too..... right. By your definition, you must be living with lairs all around you. I'm just glad that's your problem. BTW, I have no need to justify my spending habits to anyone. I buy toys and I enjoy them when they work as they're claimed to be. I also bitch about them when a toy is just a paperware as how BD started in the HiDef format DVD's.

truthfully netflicks is usually faster in sending in your movies through the mail. i have the BB service but i was about to switch it until they offered this new thing where liek Merz, said you can switch your movies in at the store right away adn they'll ship them for you.

its very convenient for me because i hate making up a list and i rather jsut go in when a movie is newly released and grab it. sometimes with BB you'll que something and u wont be able to get it for a while if its popular

sorry for the double post but: xbox360 will now be a DVR/TIVO like device that you can record video on, watch tv on, switch channels on,


http://on10.net/Blogs/tina/you-heard...arbon-is-real/
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/08/x...rface-gallery/

All I've got to say is WOW! Xbox 360 2.0 with 120GB HD, HDMI, 65nm, and iPTV. Like the first link said Apple and Sony are going to be rappin' to Nelly's Hot in Herre.

I wonder who's providing content and when it will be released, probably will be announced at CES?

you might want to check the CES microsoft keynote, i believe they already announced some providers

The Xbox will double as an MS IPTV STB as far as I can se (and in a year) and it requires that you get your tv through the internet.

Hardly true. 1080i with very dynamic pictures is arguably worse than 720p...which is why ESPN is 720p. 1080p is double the bandwidth and the difference is noticable...at the right viewing distance anyway.

Vinea

Was verizon listed? Because MS really shafted Verizon on their IPTV delivery that Verizon had to run to Motorolla to fill the gap for their IPTV needs.

Meh. I'm thinking 360 for ONE game but hey if it functions as a HD DVR that would make it really worth while but 360 v2 is months away.

Vinea