Blu-ray vs. HD DVD (2007) - Page 107

I most certainly do post outside the HD discussions I start. Maybe not as often as you may like, but last time I checked, that's my prerogative. In addition, you only got me by two years there ol' wise man of the AppleInsider forums. So, spare me with the "relatively new" spiel, cause you aren't much older. I've been here for almost 4 years.


Please let me know where I haven't engaged in honest debate. Please, oh please show me. I'm venturing to say that I've been a bit too honest with the statistics and figures I've shown on these threads over the years, and you are simply running out of arguments to counter them...thus why we have personal attacks by you.

I have more than shown the capacity and willingness to engage in honest debate, as Murch and I have both bantered back and forth over the last years with point by point rebuttals, provided with facts and figures.


Yeah, I showed up four years ago simply to spew Sony propaganda, you nailed me...<insert dripping sarcasm>...*newsflash* the BDA, as I've repeated ad nauseum is much much more than Sony, get that through your head. I'm simply motivated by the proposition of having the best technology for the end consumer in regards to high-def. IMO, that's Blu-ray.

If you've read any of my previous posts, you'd think if I was a Sony employee I'd have, at the very least, inside information before it becomes public to share with you all. Have you seen any of that from me? I didn't think so. Your accusation here is simply comedic.

I wouldn't say it's hard proof of anything because I know at least 5 people that bought a PS3 for the Blu-Ray player that are not gamers. My parents actually want one now after seeing mine at thanksgiving. First it was just the movie clarity on my HDTV, but then I couldn't get them to stop playing tiger woods. They thought it was the coolest thing ever.
They probably already got one. I haven't talked to them since thanksgiving. But I did print them out the Kmart 20% off coupon.

I guess my cousin is talking about buying my ps3 back.. for $300. If he does I'm going to grab a 80gb with the best package I can get. Supposedly there are better package deals coming soon. We'll see. I was worried about ps2 compatibility and every game I checked I own works except... and this is a big one.... Gran Turismo 4. Guess it unexpectedly stops. Oh well.

Pirates 1 looks good.. except the framing issues it has. A real shame... could have been a reference IMO.

Correction. Counting PS3s, Sony has sold 2.5 million players in the United States and have sold around 6.5 million worldwide.

So what are you telling me? That Blu-ray, because they are only beating HD DVD 2:1+ in the U.S for the entire year of 2007, it is suspect because they should be winning by more? And, while I agree that a fraction of the PS3 base are unaware of their Blu-ray playback capability, I believe the strategy from day one in regards to the PS3 was for it to have a trojan horse effect...having the capability of Blu-ray always there, and once marketing efforts and knowledge of consumers caught up, the end consumer would simply have to go out and purchase movies. In other words, the statistic of PS3 owners using their PS3 as a movie player, whatever that number may be, will more than likely go up--especially when consumers see the broad support of Blu-ray in B&M stores.

Every now and then I think some people here seem like they are working for Apple in that capacity. They talk this total brainwash AIO and all this other crap that is sooo fucking tired. I mean move on Apple. Start making some real computers again. Your computers are tired relics of a old idea that was good for change, but lets get back to business. Cant you see the signs?

I'm simply informed...or at least try to be ...and admit when I'm wrong.

As far as your inquisition, the answer is no. I'm not a part of phase Hydra, or any other secret organization for Sony. In fact, I don't own a single Sony product in my home...yet.

I am an SMS Administrator for an airline. SMS, as in a product of Microsoft's. What can I say, they keep my job security with such a shotty OS.

At the very least, I take solace in knowing I can come home to my iMac and all its sweet goodness.

No offense, but I really think you should buy a blu-ray product and at least witness the stuff before you passionately defend it. Blu-ray does have it's weaknesses. There are some horrible blu-ray transfers out there. As there is with HD-DVD... but why don't you put your money where your mouth is sort-a-speak? As an end consumer I want choices. I, like you, want the best technology. IMO the very best will come with 2 products competing. Both will keep each other honest. Just like AMD forced Intel to rethink it's release strategies, perhaps HD-DVD can force Blu-ray into lowering BDE media prices? Perhaps increase read speed? Perhaps force them to add better feature support? The list is endless and beyond 1 person's thinking of the good that can come. If dual format players take off and the two can exist and pressure each other. I acclaim the recent flood of b1g1 deals is because the two media are fighting for market share. If I can continue to buy HD media at $13 a pop... that makes a happy consumer. If their technology can improve in the mean time... that makes a happy consumer.

Not necessarily, as the video industry has a part in the decision making as well. Moreover, if we are talking consumers, the majority are choosing Blu-ray.

I might as well get used to dual-format players...mmm, yeah those that make up a fraction of already the fraction Blu-ray and HD DVD take up of the video market...I see. Perhaps I should get used to it as well, considering that given the home video market, never has duality in terms of formats worked...care to explain how HD DVD plans to buck this historical elephant in the room?

Or, Paramount, given their poor decision in taking a $150 million dollar bribe, has a chance to simply miss out on all the royalties via the BDA consortium when Blu-ray wins the format war. While they certainly are getting $$$ in the short term--going with a format in HD DVD that has yet to win a week in sales (even with their added catalog)--, their decision very well may be catastrophic in the long term, from a royalty grossing perspective.

Warner themselves, have stated they are looking at the 4th quarter and are likely to make an exclusivity decision some time next year...what will it be? To go with a format the globally, has been supported and sold more via Blu-ray and appears to be the consumer's defacto standard? Or HD DVD, a format that has a 1/3rd of the market in the U.S. and considerably less everywhere else, thus practically guaranteeing that the high-def market not ever take off or be adopted by the masses. From a studio perspective, to you tend to think that selling movies as your prime objective would be helped by going HD DVD exclusive? By taking on additional costs for production by supporting both? Not likely.

Yes they are, and a big chunk (1/3) are choosing the other side.


This is the first time in history where the competing medias are actually the same physical shape. Just as DVD+R and DVD-R started working in the same burners / players, hd-dvd and blu-ray are starting to do the same. Yes the dual format players are a very small part of the market RIGHT NOW. They just came out and started selling... give it time. 2008 will be different as far as that goes. At least cheaper and more options. The difference here is the players actually DO EXIST. Dual format players didn't exist for competing formats (unless you count VHS and DVD which weren't meant to compete). I feel the argument "this has never happened before" argument is completely an invalid point. If people thought inside the box like that all the time, technology would be at a very sore spot today. And again, this is really the first time you can have a dual format player... they ACTUALLY DO EXIST .

Another reason dual-format players are so far in between, is because they are very expensive... just like the stand alone players. I don't get why stand alone players are so much more than the ps3 (blu-ray side). I've heard all the excuses, but I don't think Sony is still taking hits on these players when you can buy dual format readers from LG for a computer for 299.

This brings me to my next point, The price on dual format readers for the computer is dropping in price like mad. Just like DVD readers did... they started in the 600s and quickly dropped into the low hundreds... within a few years time. I don't think this is a Beta-max vs VHS war... I feel this is a DVD+R vs DVD-R war. My biggest complaint is a I can't burn hd-dvds.


It's not about winning weeks in sales... it's about selling a lot of media. Last week Dreamworks (owned by Paramount), had the top selling HD media... Shrek 3. They have a market cornered... and can sell a ton of hd-dvd since they exclusive.



EDIT: I was thinking of Universal... Universal transfers have been mostly crap. If you go through all the ratings in hidefdigest for Universal, you will see a lot of the reviews get a quality rating of slightly above dvd, and in same cases WORSE than dvd. I would say that Warner on the other hand has the transferring technique down to go between both formats. They do have SOME good movie transfers on both sides.

Since they have this technique down, why would they have to go exclusive.

Can you supply a url with them stating they are going to make an exclusive decision after the 4th quarter?

No offense taken, and obviously not the first time I've heard this. You obviously don't know that my father has the technology at his house (lives 15 minutes away) with a sweet arse 8ft by 4ft high def projection screen I might add. As does my neighbor (30 seconds away) with a 46in Sony Bravia, and I've been to both regularly over and over again to witness it for myself, thanks for asking. If anything, the fact I don't own a Blu-ray product personally makes me incredibly neutral now, doesn't it? About as neutral as you, huh?

As far as your other comments, I too like choices. Who in their right mind think the choices end if Blu-ray is the format victor? You still have competition through Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Sharp, Samsung, LG, Pioneer and everyone else competing for consumer dollars. What you propose here, as if somehow choice is limited with one format in the Home Video Market, is a fallacy. You know, it. I know it. The HVM had one format victor with VHS (vs. Betamax), one with DVD (vs. DIVX), and more than likely there will be one here with Blu-ray (vs. HD DVD). Why? Because consumers in the HVM want simplicity. This isn't the IT market, or the gaming console market where competing products with proprietary hardware and software are the norm. This is the HVM, where one format historically prevails and "competion" comes in the form of different studios providing movies that play on ALL players. I presume that you enter in another variable into the HVM mix, you cause confusion,...you cause a niche market...which would simply be sad.

BTW, Blu-ray has increased its read speed, not on account of HD DVD, but moreso from the advantage of its technological superiority. In regards to price, Blu-ray has come down even moreso than HD DVD for hardware prices this year, and has had the most inexpensive dics as well. Perhaps the drop in hardware prices are due to competition with HD DVD...or perhaps it is due to Blu-ray's superiority in economies of scale, which I've touted since day one, but who knows for sure? One thing I'm sure of is though, is that at a certain point, having two formats in the HVM is almost begging for a niche market. I don't think any of us here want that.

Then the 750,000 figure for HD DVD players must also be just in the United States, since the figure came from the North American HD DVD Promotional Group. In which case, we're back to where we started.


I'm telling you that Blu-Ray's players in North America (including PS3s) is 3.3 times that of HD DVD, but disc sales each weak are only twice that of HD DVD at their best, so there's obviously some truth to the notion that a large chunk of PS3 owners aren't using their Blu-Ray player.



Sony's strategy from day one has been to sacrifice their place in the console wars in order to guarantee a foothold in the format war; even the poorest selling game console is more units sold than there are videophiles in the world. However, if Toshiba plays their cards right then Blu-Ray could end up becoming "movies for PS3 owners" in the eyes of consumers; they need to take action before set top Blu-Ray players can be sold for under $199 in order for that to happen though. And yes, 40k or more PS3s will be sold every week, so Toshiba needs to make a move now.


lol. 2/3 of consumers are choosing HD DVD as their set top player; however, 2 million others bought a Blu-Ray player by accident when they bought a PS3

DVD vs DIVX was never a real fight or intended to be a fight... at least not on the levels of beta-max vs VHS.
This IS simple. Much more simple than it ever has been. Buy a dual format player and you're done. Now you don't have to even worry about this petty war.
This IS blending in with the IT market. More and more people are moving to a more advanced home theatre system. Competing gaming consoles, AppleTV (or something like it) to stream video and store video, Windows Media Center. There isn't 1 clear choice any more. My friend went as far as taking every one of his DVDs and ripping them to a 1 terabyte fw 800 drive. Then uses DVDpedia to select the movie he wants in his library with his apple remote with his macbook pro hooked up. So yah, I have to completely disagree that consumers want 1 choice in the HMV market.


I don't agree that it would be a niche market if both sides called a truce and co-developed a player that would play both. That is as un ninche as you can get. Consumer walks up to either side of the movie isle, and doesn't have to worry about the color at the top. If this war doesn't stop... and stop soon.... I guarantee you this WILL be a niche market.

The colors are funny> Makes me think of starwars. Red is the bad evil guy.

LOL.... or GI Joe ;p... Wasn't red GI Joe and Blue was Cobra? Or visa versa?

In GI Joe, Cobra was red, or at least their logo was. GI Joe isn't blue; they're red white and blue

In Transformers, the Autobot logo was red (good guys), and the Decepticon logo was purple (bad guys). But the Autobots had Blue eyes while the Decepticons had red eyes.

Generally, red is perceived as evil, except in the case of big evil corporations, in which case big and blue has always been an evil power

No my friend. That would be the smaller chunk. And it's even smaller outside the U.S.


And,...do you assume that the industry involved are going to invest $$$ in educating the public outside the box of buy a movie play a movie for the HVM? Or do you think they'll get it when they have HD DVD players, Blu-ray players, and Dual-format players all on the shelves? Not likely. The point is invalid to possibly people like you and me who have a knowledge of the competing formats and the different types of players, but to the average joe, it is most certainly valid.


Darn those companies for wanting to make a ROI on new technology and not simply fire sale it off to the public! Remember, most companies are in this to make money, in addition to winning the format war. Also, the retail chains are in it to make money, and they certainly aren't making much if anything at all on fire sale hardware sold at below cost.


So you are saying that we ought to look at this format war within the HVM with IT goggles? I'd love to, but the average consumer certainly won't.


Last time I checked more unit sales = more sold media. Call me crazy on this one. They have a market that has been losing handily cornered, yes. Is that smart? Not necessarily.


Ask yourself this...why IYO, does Warner lack in the quality department? It wouldn't have anything to do with having to lower bitrates in order to fit the movie on a HD DVD disc, would it? Or excluse losless audio due to disc space limitations? What I find interesting is that when you quantify all the ratings from HighDefDigest, Home Theatre Forum, HTS, UD, Talk, and others, here is what you get. And notice how those movies from studios utilizing Blu-ray are at the top...look who's on the bottom...yup HD DVD studios.

PQ\tSQ\tTotal\tStudio
4.18 \t 4.36 \t4.27\tBuena Vista
3.99 \t 4.16 \t4.08\tSony
3.81 \t 4.08 \t3.95\tFox
4.01 \t 3.84 \t3.93\tParamount
3.96 \t 3.66 \t3.81\tWarner
3.63 \t 3.80 \t3.72\tLions Gate
3.80 \t 3.63 \t3.71\tWeinstein
3.71 \t 3.63 \t3.67\tUniversal


From Ron Sanders...

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...ld_For_Now/965


and then this quote from...

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1123

Sorry, I meant the lasers in their guns

Samsung has their BD-UP5000 on their website now, as well as a PDF describing the product. Blu-Ray aficionados, will this thing be able to meet Blu-Ray profile 2.0 requirements when they finally get around to finishing their format?


That was debunked by Warner themselves. Twice, in fact.

No kidding, tell me something I don't know. My point wasn't if Warner was going Blu-ray exclusive. My point was that Warner was going to be looking at the 4th quarter closely as to their plans for either of the formats in the future. Even with the "debunking" link you gave me, it states this,...


...so, my statement and questions still stand...

Am I taking crazy pills, or does this quote not say they plan on continuing to remain format-neutral in 2008?

And yet you insist that "(Warner) is likely to make an exclusivity decision some time next year..." is an accurate statement.

And no, I don't think exclusively selling movies in a format whose install base is presently 80% composed of PS3 owners makes sense. Why would a neutral studio abandon HD DVD right when it reaches a price at which average consumers might actually purchase it, in favor of the format that 1.) won't reach affordable prices for another year and 2.) is still finalizing their standard? Hell, there's been over 20 million Sony PSP's sold; that's 10 times HD DVD and Blu-Ray players combined. Perhaps all of the studios should go PSP UMD exclusive in 2008? Would make about as much sense

Now you know how I feel...

Has anybody actually gone throught the lists of all the movies offered by both formats to compare which one has most of your faves? I did and while HD DVD won handily in the quantity I am pretty ticked off that the Kill Bill series will probably be Blu Ray only. Ticked off enough that I haven't purchased a HD DVD player and won't yet until there's a final winner. And to all the dual format supporters: NO I will NOT buy two players. That is absurd. Now if ONE player played both I would buy it right now but then the price would proably be a turnoff. Bottom line for me is that I refuse to be limited in the selection of the movies--I'm not a movie holic. I have my select faves that I want and refuse to compromise with that-- I want to buy so I'm not investing my hard earned money until this stupid war is resolved. I have a nice dvd player that upconverts my old dvds that I received for free with my new plasma tv and I can watch the hd movies on my DISH network or through Xbox Live rentals. Anyway here's the article with the lists I found:


http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...the_Niche/1154


For those who are about to pick one for the holidays, it really makes more sense to select the format by the amount of your favorite movies it has before any silly tech stat about the format. They both look the same.

I'm just angry that everybody isn't releasing movies in both formats.

SO TRUE!!!!


I'm selling my copy of Halo 3. I play COD4 obsessively since it came out.

That's because PS3 still doesn't have as many exclusives or overall number of games as XBox 360 yet. That's just a simple fact, not Sony console bashing. I'm not into the whole console war thing since the console fanboy war seems to be more of a "boy" thing. The grownups just pick one or both (some have 3 with Wii) and get on with the gaming. If you have to pick one do just like the HD players: go for the one that has the most games you like. (Unless you like online play the most. In that case Xbox Live wins hands down.)

+1!

A year from now I imagine you'll be able to purchase the Samsung BD-UP5000 combo player for what Blu-Ray players are selling for now. If you can afford a Blu-Ray player today, you can afford a combo player in a year


So true.

4metta... there are players that play BOTH formats in 1 drive. Price is high right now because they are relatively new to the market. BUT you can get a dual format reader and dvd burner for under $300

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827136133 (out of stock till 12/01/07).

This tells me that the actual players themselves will be under $450 soon. Or you can even get that rom now... and build a media pc. I'm kinda considering it.

Something just occurred to me. Maybe Sony and Toshiba WANT this war to continue. Why else would both companies admit a stalemate within a week of each other. Maybe there is something we aren't seeing here.

I think this Christmas will tell us the real attach rate for PS3. You get a console for the games but BR movies are cheaper than games as gifts.

I'm more likely to spring for a $25 BR movie for a Christmas gift than $60 on a PS3 game.

I hate big companies..

Which format will get the Star Wars Saga? That alone will allow me to run and purchase a Toshiba or a PS3 today.

I believe Fox has the distribution rights to these and other LucasFilm content. They will be Blu-ray exclusive, but won't see the light of day until this ridiculous format war is over.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6339508.html

More FUD. No one in the BDA admitted a stalemate. This has been discussed and "debunked"...twice.

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/no-star-...or-hd-dvd/4480

"Lucasfilm Ltd. has no plans to release any of the Star Wars movies on Blu-ray or HD DVD. Listings on Amazon.com or any other Web site are purely speculative and erroneous."

You must be.

Because in the links YOU provided, there is some eye-raising statements that lend credence to Warner making a decision in 2008 in regards to exclusivity...


Yes, "right now." And we know they'll continue with releases in 2008, but will it be for the entire year in 2008? Hmm? When you take into account Sanders and Silverberg's statements, one would tend to think not.

Also, with this quote YOU provided...


So, yeah, I'd say you're taking crazy pills, as even with the links you provided, it appears WB will be evauluating something "important for both sides." What would be important do you think? C'mon, think about it logistically...yup, the answer is there, you simply need to read. Is it important because they want to support both in 2008? To keep their production costs up by supporting both? Or make the high def market possibly niche by supporting both?

We all know that for "right now" they'll support both, but make no mistake, WB will be looking at the fourth quarter for their strategic plans come 2008.

750,000 HD-DVD players... with the assumption that they are unique owners????

but we know from this board alone that murch bought two players and i think bite has as well, or at the very least was talking about it.

so that means that the holy grail of "attach rate" starts to fall away.

--

as a side issue, how can someone say that "only xx% of PS3 owners know use them as BD players" and then crib about the free discs given away with the machine? i mean if you get free discs with the machine, you will more than likely play them in it.. right? so then if EVERYONE who buys a PS3 gets a free disc(s) then it stands to reason that ALL the PS3 owners know it plays BD discs!!

BUT as has been pointed out numerous times on this thread already THE FREE DISCS GIVEN AWAY on HD-DVD AND BLU-RAY ARE NOT COUNTED IN THE WEEKLY FIGURES.

ok

Which is what I just said. But this doesn't take away the fact of whom has been distributing movies for Lucasfilms...Fox, a Blu-ray exclusive studio. You think they'd (LucasFilms) would switch distribution companies simply to release on a format that is losing handily in the format war? Nope.

If anything, Star Wars will most likely be on Blu-ray exclusively...but not for a loooooong time. Most likely, years from Blu-ray winning the format war.

where the hell do you get your misinformation from? out of your ass?

the PS3 has sold over 5 million world wide.

the US (and I make the assumption you are from the US) is NOT the entire globe!

Your logic can't be any more clear.