Blu-ray vs. HD DVD (2007) - Page 112

Again, everything Bay thinks he knows about the two competing formats, he learned while sitting at a table with a couple of Blu-Ray fanboys. Superior format? They're two different wrappers for the same end-product; neither format has a leg up over the other that actually results in a superior film viewing. And again, consumers aren't choosing Blu-Ray; it's coming built-in to a larger multimedia system that would have sold millions of units regardless. When the Blu-Ray userbase is no longer 94 percent PS3 owners, then you can talk about consumers choosing it; until then, it's just the UMD of the PS3.

And I agree, it is short-sighted for a studio to be format-exclusive.

Quoting myself : here is the hardmac article.


The answer comes from this developer documentation.

were you there? do you know who Bay talked to? do you have access to the same contacts he has? who are these mysterious "fanboys" are the the same type of people as "THEM" and "THEY"?


They ARE different formats, neither one will play in a player designed for the other format, BD has more space, HD-DVD has an on off relationship with dual layer SD-DVD.


Currently its ONLY Toshiba pushing it proprietary format of HD-DVD, you don't seem capable of grasping that outside of the US BD is the dominant format of the two by a long way, WORLD WIDE. Possibly SOME of the Americans on this thread are just not used to being "behind" in a technology ??

Are you arguing that PS3 owners are not consumers? because thats what it sounds like.

If it wasn't bluster when you said in an earlier post that you were going to go neutral, then why all the aggressive posturing towards Blu-ray?


Well if you can start to grasp concepts like that, its possible you can begin to catch up with where the rest of the world is already.

Thanks for the links

THIS

Was very interesting, I'm expecting BD iMacs or Mac Pros at macworld now.

It's good to hear that support is there, though with the neglect iDVD's been seeing you have to wonder whether Apple cares about discs anymore.

Does anybody have component info on what Blu-Ray and HD-DVD burner currently cost OEMs?

Neither does Toshiba laptop buyers.

He said so himself. He didn't know jack about either format until he got put at a table with a couple of Blu-Ray fans who were upset about Transformers being an HD DVD-exclusive. The evening he got home from that party, he posted a disgruntled message on his forum in the wee hours of the morning about how foolish it was of Paramount/Dreamworks to be format-exclusive. The next morning, that message was removed and a day or two later there was a new message from him explaining that he had "drank the kool-aid" from a couple of Blu-Ray backers he'd been sitting with the night before. I imagine the studio pressured him to say something of the sort, but where he got everything he thinks he knows about the formats is apparent.


I'm pointing out that Blu-Ray's userbase is almost entirely PS3 owners — the vast majority of its disc buyers are merely a by-product of purchasing a next-generation gaming console. Until that changes, the Blu-Ray camp shouldn't get too excited because the format is still just movies for PS3 owners. HD DVD's userbase is obviously smaller, but every player sold was purchased with the intent of watching movies, because that's their sole purpose. One could argue that more consumers have choosen HD DVD, as they have more dedicated players, where-as PS3 buyers are inherently becoming Blu-Ray owners whether they want to or not. It's kind of like Windows' market share in that sense, only it doesn't suck.



I have nothing against Blu-Ray, and have every intent of becoming a user of it, but all of the horn-tooting from some of the Blu-Ray backers is rather deafening. A little modesty about your preferred format's current lead would go a long way. If you and Marz are so confident about Blu-Ray's inevitable victory, there's really no need to post every statistic, sales chart, and pro-blue opinion found on the web.


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Which is why they aren't tallied in anyone's HD DVD userbase figures.

Believe it or not, the concept of agency being taken away in regards to Blu-ray couldn't be further from the truth. Most videophiles have actually purchased and dare I say, chosen, the PS3 solely for movies due to no profile limitation currently and the wide number of audio formats it supports. Are we able to quantify that number? No, nor you or I can accurately quantify that number...somewhere between 1 and 6.5 million. However, even if we talk a small percentage of the PS3 userbase you'll see that even then the systems used to watch movies far outweigh the number of HD DVD systems. Otherwise, they wouldn't be dominating in sales for 50 weeks in a row.

PS3 owners chose to buy the PS3...chose. It wasn't forced into their homes, they chose to purchase the console. The fact that if someone purchased it solely for games and now can watch high-def movies with it...it's icing on the cake...part of Sony's strategy which is to get as much Blu-ray hardware into people's homes as possible and this is a direct byproduct of choice. The choice to purchase the PS3. If you are trying to claim that people didn't choose to have a Blu-ray player, then I would think the end consumer would have a choice not to buy it. Don't you think?

Moreover, even with the price disparity between the hardware in the formats, about a month or two ago, strictly standalones only fared at a 53% to 47% advantage for HD DVD. Granted this number is probably moreso in favor of HD DVD now considering their $98 fire sale, but I think you are self deluding yourself if you think Toshiba will continue to outsell the likes of Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Sharp, and Philips by themselves. Are they going to sell their players for $1? It sufficeth to say that Toshiba knows that their price advantage will soon be gone in terms of standalone hardware they've been subsidizing. Blu-ray manufacturers see this and are trying to make money back on their R&D by actually selling standalones at a profit.


And yet you defend HD DVD at every chance you get. Are you honestly leading us to believe that somehow you are really neutral? At least Walter and I are honest in our preferred format and don't attempt to design a facade of neutrality and all the while defend and support your true preferred format--HD DVD.

I post every statistic and sales chart because those are the facts. Sometimes the truth hurts, and I state the obvious because when I don't I find the thread inundated with HD DVD FUD of how Venturer is going to save the day, that Blu-ray is doomed because of price, how Sony is the BDA, that Sony is the devil, that the Paramount deal had nothing to do with the $150 million dollar bribe, that BOGO are an every week occurence, etc. Need I go on? A little honesty in the state of affairs in regards to how well HD DVD is really doing would go a long way as well. 50 straight weeks of losing in disc sales seems about as honest as you can get.


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Which is why they aren't tallied in anyone's HD DVD userbase figures.[/QUOTE]

Samsung says their dual-format player is still on track to be available this month, and they have lowered the list price from $999 to $799! Places like Amazon were already selling it for $200 below the original list price, so I wonder if they will adjust their price to be well-below the list price yet again. This is great news, as the sooner this bad boy reaches an affordable price, the sooner single-format players will become obsolete and the sooner everyone and their sister company will want to produce and sell a combo player.

and neither are the PS3 figures, your point? your point seems to be that you want to be able to cry about the fact that the PS3 can play BD movies.

I have actually cut down my posting on this thread because i can't be bothered reading it every day when its the same biased blind bully boy bull shit from people who are blind to the simple figures. I don't post figures at all, but then its easy to lump me into your perceived image of who you think I am. it suits you to lump all the "fanboys" into one grouping.

heathen PS3 owners ready to eat small children.


I'm a PS3 owner IF I now state that I have more movies for it than I have games, the cry will no doubt arise that "THERE ARE NO GAMES" which again will be utter bollocks, but a popular meme from people who can't think, or indeed count for themselves.

So I am clued in enough with reality to know that I am only a demographic of one, but I have bought plenty of movies to use the PS3 as a BD player, and I'm also clued in enough to know that I AM NOT ALONE.

You CAN'T have it both ways, the PS3 IS being used for BD playback accept that there are more of those machines around and that the BD format is selling more players and discs, has more studios supporting it, REALISE that this is not just limited to movie studios but also includes GAME STUDIOS and realise that this will lower the price of BD disc production costs, and that THAT will get reflected in the cost of BD movies.

If you intend to go neutral then surely you are FOR cheaper BD pricing? if the PS3 helps to achieve that, then why moan about the PS3 "boo hoo not fair"

If you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen and let the rest of us cook!

A little thought on why I'm not neutral.

I have been watching this thread and the previous ones for a while now, I knew about Blu-ray a few years ago, it sounded interesting an futuristic back then, if not a little out of reach.

Then I find out that the PS3 will use BD and I marvel at how far we have come since the 8-bit days and 64Kb of ram!

The BD roms are going to be reality, I've had the PS1 and then the PS2 I got seriously into DVDs BECAUSE OF the PS2, I think that the PS3 will be a mind blowing upgrade from the PS2 and the PS2 was from the PS1. {IMO}


Then I start to hear about the HD-DVD format and I think "OH BOY that will slow adoption rates" but am optimistic that everything will work out ok and BD will become the dominant standard. then I hear that M$ are going to have HD-DVD in their 360, oops no, only as an add on "big mistake M$" I think to myself you won't help the format along, you have F**ked up a big opportunity.

then I hear that HD-DVD is going to be cheaper for a player, I wonder how I might get one, I wonder how it might feel to buy into the "losing" format, be that HD-DVD or BD it causes me some confusion, I am no longer confident about buying a PS3 {mm good move M$ by backing HD-DVD you made a potential PS3 purchaser DELAY a purchase, good tactic}
I way up how long I might wait to "jump in" and I way up how I might afford to go neutral. I decide that there is more studio support for BD easy then, I will put my money there and with any luck the other studios will see sense and at least go neutral for the short term.

I buy a PS3 and almost immediately Paramount "makes a decision" {well thats as kind as I'm going to be }

Undaunted I buy a few BD movies and watch the HD-DVD player price fall.

I make a mental note that once it reaches "throw away" price in the UK then I will reconsider my position and possibly buy in.

I think about this last statement for a while and consider the facts, BD has more studio support (including game studios) is in more homes, is outselling HD-DVD 10-1 in some regions around the world, and in the states where it isn't doing quite so well, it has still outsold HD-DVD every week this year so far.

Then I think of my personal reasons why I chose BD, which basically comes down to 1 fact, it has more space, more space for movies and extras, more space for fitting TV show seasons onto one disc and more space for computer backups.

and strangely enough, computer backups were where I first discovered Blu-ray, looking up storage solutions for the future.

some posters on these threads have scoffed at 50GB as being next to useless for a backup medium, but for me it will be just great, and certainly more preferable than 30GB that HD-DVD might offer, if they actually had any burners out.

So, despite the HD-DVD players NEARLY having reached throw away pricing, I don't see the point in muddying the waters by going neutral, it is my firm belief that ONE format will benefit the end user just as DVD became a standard then either BD or HD-DVD should have been a single standard, but we have gone beyond that point, and there are two formats, the one that is struggling to even get close to keeping pace, should therefore die off or be killed off ASAP so that the industry and the consumer can unite behind one solution for hi-def movies.

and that, going by the figures alone is Blu-ray.

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Briefly on "fanboys" A fan-boy in my understanding of the term is someone who passionately believes in their chosen "team" or in this case technology, DESPITE the figures being against them.

I suppose that makes owners of Apple products "fanboys" too, which is the bit that ticks me off, when Windows people refare to Apple owners as fanboys, it is usually because they do not know their subject, have not experienced "the other side" and it is easier for them, just as it is in religions to call out the heathen assume Blasphemy and deride the "not we" the "unbeliever" etc.

So it has always been my understanding that anyone using the term "fanboy" cannot make a valid argument, because they don't understand what they are talking about, and don't want to accept the FACTS because they do not fit with what they themselves believe, meaning, to my eyes at least, that they are pretty much marking a line in the sand and saying "I'm a fanboy too"

hardly a route to reasoned argument or discussion.

but I suppose, if you don't believe me, I can always call you a fanboy

thanks for your time

WS

Much like PC buyers CHOOSE Windows? Would one argue that 90% of people prefer Windows over Mac OS X? Or is it more a matter of apathy of consumers regarding operating systems? And the fact that 9 out of 10 computers have it installed by default? It's not like you can purchase a PS3 without Blu-Ray, or opt for a PS3 with HD DVD instead. If you want a PS3, you get a Blu-Ray player. It's most certainly icing on the cake and a sweet deal, but I'd bet the farm that if Sony had offered a PS3 sans Blu-Ray for $299 at launch, the number of people who purchased a $599 Blu-Ray equipped model would be few and far between.


I don't forsee Blu-Ray suddenly becoming less expensive than HD DVD, so HD DVD should always maintain a price advantage. When Blu-Ray players are $50, HD DVD will be $25, and so on.


It's more a matter of deflating Blu-Ray's overzealous ego. Again, when Blu-Ray userbase isn't dominantly PS3 owners, then it can be touted as the format of "choice". I don't have a death wish for either format, and would like to see both live on in the form of combo players becoming standard. That way, no consumers get screwed.



And Apple's been losing the OS war for 25 years straight As I've said many times, this isn't a presidential race; the format with the lesser percentage of votes doesn't go home empty-handed.

Actually, I can back you up on this claim of PS3 being the chosen among AV enthusiasts, however, the reason is for lack of choice in BD profile compliant hardware availability. The fact is that PS3 is not BD profile compliant for the time being. It is capable by spec, but have not been announced as a future features for PS3's. Basically, AV enthusiasts chose PS3 in the hopes of firmware updates providing remedy for BD profile compatibility issues.

Besides the PS3 becoming an AV hardware, most of the AV enthusiasts using PS3 (not including "gamers" using as BD player) also owns standalone HD-DVD players as well.

Once the fully capable standalone Blu-Ray players are available, expect to see a lot more of PS3's on ebay at even lower prices. Perhaps, the resale value may drop significantly for many of the BD supporters on this thread get join the Blu-Ray bandwagon.

Haha... I guess there is not a clear difference between being a fan vs. being a fanboy based on your definition. But you may call yourself whatever you wish.

Don't worry though, you're only a borderline fanboy in my book.

Slocombe - thanks for this great post. I am happy to see that someone has rationalized the purchase of a PS3 the same way as I have.

I don't hate HD-DVD or anything. I just wish it would go away just for the simple fact that blu-ray is a better product and we need to have a single format so we can all end this silly stuff and enjoy HD optical discs at decent hardware / media prices.

HD-DVD can surely deliver great sound and picture, but how can you possibly argue with sheer storage space?

Yes, much like PC buyers CHOOSE Windows. If a consumer doesn't want Windows on their PC system, get Linux. Don't wan't Windows or Linux. Buy a Mac. Choice is still there. Even if what you say is true, that 9 out of 10 computers have it--Windows--installed by default, you as a consumer STILL have a choice.

I'd say you would have the farm on your bet, but what you propose--not including a Blu-ray player in the PS3 or with an HD DVD drive instead (which is essentially the same cost)--doesn't quite make sense from a business perspective. If you are trying to win a format war, you don't pull a Microsoft and release an add-on when add-ons are historically failures (i.e. Sega) and you certainly don't support the rival format by putting their tech into your creation at the same cost or without your tech (Blu-ray) to aid in you losing the format war.

So, I'm not sure why you are complaining about choice here as a consumer can choose to buy a PS3 or not. It wouldn't suprise me if you were the same type of guy complaining about iTunes not giving "choice" as to playback devices. It's Apple's tech, don't they deserve to profit? Likewise, the PS3 is Sony's tech, do they not deserve to profit as well, along with the 170+ companies in the BDA with royalties?


Well, if HD DVD hardware continues to use cheaper internal components only capable of 1080i and continue to subsidize the cost of their standalones and then you compare these players to more highly equipped Blu-ray players, then yeah, they may maintain the price advantage. However, when you look at a comparably equipped HD DVD standalone to an equally equipped Blu-ray standalone, there really is no price advantage for HD DVD. Even now.

And remember, in terms of price of discs, Blu-ray discs are cheaper. Chalk it up to the wonderful brain child of combo discs.


I know that duality is what you'd like, but historically I don't see HD DVD changing the Home Video Market to support two formats when one format becoming victor is more plausible due to simplicity. Historical odds and current numerical odds are against your notion, but heh, at 30% for HD DVD, you think anything can happen.


No, the format with the lesser percentage is more likely the format that dies and goes into consumer's homes and becomes a relic with no studios providing content for it. Or do you assume the industry will continue to support both, especially if the lesser percentage becomes less? I don't thinks so, business is business, and the one making a whole lot less business is the one that gets scrapped.

More "Biiig Mahrbles" talk from Bay...

http://www.shootfortheedit.com/forum...69&postcount=2


And there you have it. "Blu-ray suits my [his] films better." I can't say I disagree with him, he is the Director after all and knows his stuff.

Mixing metaphors isn't always a great idea.

Hahahaha. That was actually funny. Good one Frank. I love me some chitlins!

Woot broke the 1,000 post barrier...yee haw.

And the majority of them on this thread, right?

True, true. I'll have to work on that for you guys.

Future Hardware for the win!

So, Still no attempt at reasoned argument from you, looks like you have become not only a parody of yourself, but also the thing you seek to deride.

Well done.

Cheers, there was more, but I felt the post was already long enough

BEFORE I bought into BD with the PS3 I just wanted one format, I really didn't care which one, but BD has more Studios, more players, more actual manufacturers making machines, REAL burners in existence, with REAL blank media you can buy and, of course more disc sales in every country and world wide.

I apologize. I honestly did not know I was supposed to provide a reasoned argument with your testimonies to; why you bought a game console and why you may call yourself a Blu-Ray fanboy.

I would be more than happy to engage in a discussion/s on topic based on the facts or news. I don’t like engaging in a discussion based on personal speculations or biased opinions, unless it’s worth a debate.

For furture references, if you would like for me to answer to your particular post and your particular point of an argument, please leave me a PM. It's hard to do this from work without getting distracted too much.

Don't forget more disk space. DId you know that Midway is going to have to scale down their version of Unreal Tournament 3 for Xbox 360 because they just don't have enough disk space for the textures, and everything else? THey are not going to have some maps at all. They may not even release it for 360 if they think it will degrade their reputation. Although they have not even started the 360 version yet, but they do know it has limited potential.

I'm sorry, anything that is a reasonable argument clearly is off-topic and doesn't belong in this thread.

bite, are you going to double-dip on the Harry Potter films?

http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/06/t...l-mart-secret/

HDDVD player for $300 plus 12 free movies at walmart secret sale.

Oh snap.

Why are you posting wasted investments? HD-DVD isn't just behind, it's lost a cause so don't screw people over in here. Your like a spammer with that post.

I'm still contemplating whether I should. I had imported HPGOF last year from Amazon.UK and that leaves me with 1st three double dips and the HPOOP on my wish list.

I currently have just HPOOP on pre-order from amazon, but I may change my mind. The only issue with getting the box set now is that there will be two additional series coming out and I'm sure there will be a final box set with the 7th series. I think the current HP box set packaging looks pretty need, though.

I've seen a lot better deals. I think amazon currently has HD-A3 with 10 free movies for $199, but their pricing does change every day, sometimes few times a day.

As I've posted before. I've seen exact same deal going as low as $157 from amazon and may go even lower right around x-mass.

Blu-Ray must indeed be doing well overseas, since it's advocates clearly don't speak English well.

Blu-Ray outsells HD-DVD globally by about 3 to 1 and rising. There's really no sign that HD-DVD will ever alter the momentum and as Bay said it's now just being used as a spoiler tactic. They've tried selling the players at Wal-mart for $100, giving away the movies, and since they did all that Blu-Ray has actually increased its market share.

I'm disappointed that Apple haven't stuck Blu-Ray burners in their high end machines by now. How on earth are we meant to burn the high definition movies they are are so keen for us to make?

I have a Sony HD Camcorder and Apple HD editing software and yet I must down-convert to standard definition if anyone wants to watch this stuff.

Ridiculous.

B.Y.O.B.R.B.

BTW, you can author HiDef material on a SD-DVD writable media as well, all 8.5GB worth.

Um...they sold HD DVD players for only ONE WEEKEND at a $99 price, and sold more that weekend than the entire previous year combined. Logic would dictate that once the sub-$99 price becomes the norm instead of a 48-hour sale, they could move as many standalone players a week as Sony does PS3s. At those kinds of prices, a person looking for a replacement DVD player for his/her recently-busted one may as well pick up one that not only upconverts his/her standard-definition DVDs, but plays HD DVDs as well.


I agree. We should have had high-definition discs years ago.

According to this AppleInsider article (care of MacBidouille), at MacWorld, a Blu-ray drive will be an option in the refreshed Mac Pro machines and DVD Studio Pro will be able to manage and author Blu-ray discs.

Good God I hope so. It's about GD time!

Unfortunately, Macbidouille just updated the news about the possibility of Blue-Ray drive option. According to their sources, the problem would be a conflict between Apple and AACS LA, which is trying to impose a very strict protection scheme at the OS X kernel level. According to the Macbidouille sources, Apple refuses to do so for some reason.

I have no idea if all this makes sense or not.

AACS is part of both standards right? That means no HD-DVD either.

I don't understand this news though. Blu-Ray drives exist on the PC, and Toshiba's shipping HD-DVD drives with their laptops. Does anyone know if Redmond hard-coded the protection scheme in the Windows kernel?

It seems weird that Apple would put all that work into ensuring Leopard could read and write both sets of discs, knowing that they wouldn't be shipping them even by the time MWSF rolled around.