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Blu-ray vs. HD DVD (2007) - Page 115

post #4561 of 4651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post

Hey Marz, I'm a BD supporter and don't agree with your contention about it being all over if Warner goes Blu exclusive. Universal and Paramount may decide that it makes sense financially to split HD's 25 - 35% share of the HDM market between themselves rather than have to compete against the rest of the studios in BD.

That is incorrect. A studio doesn't compete only within the format it supports. Consumers don't think "what HD DVD (or Blu-ray) movie I should buy next?" They wonder what movie they want, and if it's not available for their player, they curse the studio. The choice of titles comes first, not allegiance to any format or studio.
post #4562 of 4651
Thread Starter 
Ignore. Double post due to failed page load.
post #4563 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post

Hey Marz, I'm a BD supporter and don't agree with your contention about it being all over if Warner goes Blu exclusive. Universal and Paramount may decide that it makes sense financially to split HD's 25 - 35% share of the HDM market between themselves rather than have to compete against the rest of the studios in BD.

Warner is in an enviable position right now probably entertaining some very lucrative bids to go one way or the other or even to stay neutral. If Paramount's decision was worth $150M, how much do you think Warner will be able to squeeze out of this from someone?

Relax OldCodger, I was joking with the picture and about the "neutral" comment. Anyhow, so you really think Universal and Paramount will try to hold on less than 20% of the market which will assuredly dwindle to less than 10% as more people realize they can get 6 out of 8 studios movies from 1 format? HD DVD has roughly 35% share now with three studios. Without Warner, this will more than likely go to about 20% or below.

And you somehow think other studios won't fall in line as they see the other format grow exponentially in install base while the other flounders?

I say I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
post #4564 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Why do you keep repeating this retarded Microsoft FUD?

Microsoft isn't the company that is betting the farm on next-gen movie downloads. That company is Apple.

Microsoft is simply interested in using downloads to help sales of its Xbox, while Apple needs that market more to sustain its iPod domination, along with their revised AppleTV strategy.

You simply do not know what you are talking about.

I don't?...I'm spreading Microsoft FUD am I?...no, it is you who doesn't know what you are talking about...

http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/06/microsoft_predi.html

Quote:
According to Microsofts program manager for Media Entertainment Convergence, Richard Doherty, who spoke recently at the annual Digital Hollywood conference in California, both disc formats will be obsolete in five to ten years' time.

The future is fast broadband and downloads. In fact, "At Microsoft, we'd rather HD wasn't on a disc," he said.

...This will be the last optical generation, if it survives," he concluded.

and straight from the horses mouth, Bill Gates...

Quote:
Understand that this is the last physical format there will ever be. Everything's going to be streamed directly or on a hard disk. So, in this way, it's even unclear how much this one counts."

But I'm sure there are other reasons why Microsoft chose HD DVD and the rest of the entire in industry chose Blu-ray.
post #4565 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post

Hey Marz, I'm a BD supporter and don't agree with your contention about it being all over if Warner goes Blu exclusive. Universal and Paramount may decide that it makes sense financially to split HD's 25 - 35% share of the HDM market between themselves rather than have to compete against the rest of the studios in BD.

Warner is in an enviable position right now probably entertaining some very lucrative bids to go one way or the other or even to stay neutral. If Paramount's decision was worth $150M, how much do you think Warner will be able to squeeze out of this from someone?


I wonder what is the point of agreeing/disagreeing with someone's fantasy?


It is not going to happen. The day PS3 beats Wii in sales will be the day PS3 will help win the HDM format war.
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post #4566 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

And you somehow think other studios won't fall in line as they see the other format grow exponentially in install base while the other flounders?

I say I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.

That will most certainly happen... if one format or the other actually sees exponential growth. I've been following this thread for quite awhile. Occasionally I skip over a page or two if I've fallen behind so I could've missed some important facts. However, off the top of my head, it seems to me that the US Blu-ray install base has floated around the 3 million mark since a few months after the PS3 came out.
post #4567 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

But I'm sure there are other reasons why Microsoft chose HD DVD and the rest of the entire in industry chose Blu-ray.

Unless the "last physical format" he's talking about is plain ol' DVD, those comments don't support your claims. And he's right; HD DVD or Blu-Ray will be the last physical format, but we still need them in the interim if we are to enjoy high-definition movies and games for the next 10 years.
post #4568 of 4651
Looks like B1G1 deal at amazon is really making people spend money on HDM. The HD-DVD current selections are not that great, but the cheaper prices are making it worth a purchase. If amazon had offered B1G1 on some decent HDM titles, it would really have taken off. But the long term indication is that the HDM prices have to settle down to SD-DVD level for HDM's to be a prefered choice over SD-DVD, since lower prices seem to be the real catalyst to HDM adoption.

Anyway for the time being, B1G1 deal is a great opportunity for HDM supporters to build up thier HDM library.

This holday season have already been great for my HDM hobby.

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post #4569 of 4651
so.. which line is which?
post #4570 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

so.. which line is which?


haha...

Does it really matter?... Both HDM formats are doing quite well at amazon with B1G1 promotion deals from both formats.

But if you must know, the blue line represents Blu-Ray and the black line is for HD-DVD.
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post #4571 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

However, off the top of my head, it seems to me that the US Blu-ray install base has floated around the 3 million mark since a few months after the PS3 came out.

Actually.... that was what Sony projected earlier this year, but it recently passed 3 million mark about a month ago, including 2.5 million PS3 + 400K Standalones.
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post #4572 of 4651
ah thanks. I must be remembering projections as actual numbers.

3 million that's about the population of Chicago. Not bad.
post #4573 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

ah thanks. I must be remembering projections as actual numbers.

3 million that's about the population of Chicago. Not bad.


Yup... that's alot of units. But the majority of the PS3 owners use the hardware only as a game console. Therefore, the actually installed base does not equal to user base as a Blu-Ray HDM application. As you know, all the PS3 games also come on Blu-Ray optical disc.

Oh, I forgot, the newer PS3 packages include Blu-Ray movie and would get limited Blu-Ray HDM play time if the user decides to watch their free Blu-Ray movie.
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post #4574 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Unless the "last physical format" he's talking about is plain ol' DVD, those comments don't support your claims. And he's right; HD DVD or Blu-Ray will be the last physical format, but we still need them in the interim if we are to enjoy high-definition movies and games for the next 10 years.

Corey, yes it does. Read it again. This time in its entirety.
post #4575 of 4651
Gamers Ripe for High-End A/V Systems, Research Shows

Nielsen Research Group and THX find that gamers use surround sound systems, high-end video products.

http://www.cepro.com/article/gamers_...arch_shows/D1/

Quote:
Im going to let you in on a little secret. Gamers like great video, but also great audio too.

Thats right, they have more multi-channel home audio rigs and HDTVs than most CE manufacturers or game developers realize.

Discussions about game rooms and the video game industry in general are not new. Quite the contrary, as the CEA and the editors of CE Pro have been discussing the importance of the $40 billion video games business, as well as their relation to the professional dealer and installer market, for quite some time.

However, until recently, there has been a lack of understanding of how important multi-channel sound, cable connections and HD video are to the average console player.

Earlier this year, Nielsen Research Group (NRG), in partnership with THX Games Director Mark Tuffy and the THX marketing team, set out to learn more about gamer habits.

Several hundred individuals, divided among Xbox 360, Wii and Playstation 3 owners, participated in the study across 20 top U.S. markets.

The criteria was simple: participants had to be at least 18 years old, own a major game console and play at least one hour per week.

...Beyond Gaming:
- 51% of PS3 users watch movies on their consoles, compared to 47% of Xbox 360 users.
- 36% of console owners say home entertainment options are the reasons for a console purchase.
- 54% of Xbox 360 consoles are located in the living room or den, compared to 55% of Wii and 44% of PS3s.



...The Nielsen study revealed that more than 54 percent of PS3 and 48 percent of Xbox 360 consoles are currently connected to multi-channel (5.1 or greater), home theater systems.

In fact, more gaming consoles are now connected to surround sound systems than traditional stereo television speakers. This indicates that surround sound has grown in importance among the gaming community and more and more console owners are making the jump to multi-channel systems.

Who are the early adopters? The research shows that PS3 owners are the first to embrace multi-channel audio systems.

PS3 owners tend to be early adopters of many new technologies, followed closely by Xbox 360 owners.


PS3 Owners Drive Adoption
- Only 27% of PS3s are connected to just TV speakers.
- 30% of PS3 owners have at least a 5.1 set-up; 24% have jumped to 7.1.
- 73% PS3 owners who do not currently have a multi-channel system indicated they would be likely to upgrade to a multi-channel set-up.



...The Nielsen data shows that PS3 owners are the most connected to HD displays, followed closely by Xbox 360 and Wii owners. Across all consoles owners, LCD is the HD display technology of choice, followed by plasma display and rear projection TVs...

The Numbers Game

What do all these numbers mean?

The console gamer represents a massive opportunity for all CE manufacturers, dealers and installers. In fact, gamers could be the next generation of audiophiles, replacing the aging vinyl and the original Star Wars crowd.

They could be the driving force behind the move to 7.1 and beyond.

The challenge for the CE industry is getting gamers to realize the impact of high quality home audio and video gear on their overall gaming experience.

Manufacturers, installers and dealers alike will need to create a step-up market from desktop systems and HTiBs to high-end in-walls and feature-rich AVRs as gaming consoles continue to make their way into living rooms.

But, before any of this can happen, the industry must get a better understanding of who and what they are dealing with.

Dont make generalizations about gamers. Do the research. Understand their behavior.

Realize that video game consoles are not just another component in the rack, but rather a hub for all entertainment content.

I think this gives us a good idea as to how many users of the PS3 watch movies...

Doing the math... 51% of roughly 2,000,000 PS3 owners watching Blu-rays + 400,000 standalones = 1,420,000 Blu-ray watchers vs 750,000 HD-DVD watchers...

Look familiar? 1.89:1 and this is only in the US. The picture is worse for HD DVD internationally.
post #4576 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Gamers Ripe for High-End A/V Systems, Research Shows

Nielsen Research Group and THX find that gamers use surround sound systems, high-end video products.

http://www.cepro.com/article/gamers_...arch_shows/D1/

I think this gives us a good idea as to how many users of the PS3 watch movies...

Doing the math... 51% of roughly 2,000,000 PS3 owners watching Blu-rays + 400,000 standalones = 1,420,000 Blu-ray watchers vs 750,000 HD-DVD watchers...

Look familiar? 1.89:1 and this is only in the US. The picture is worse for HD DVD internationally.

Well.. If I do your math on your stats....

47% of 9 million xbox360 owners = about 4+ million already in the states.... does it make sense?

The real question is how many of the 51% watch Blu-Ray HDM vs. SD-DVD and what would be the true ratio of that from the total PS3 owners including 18 yrs old and under.

Bad source and bad stats...... not a credible study at all. I'm sure Sony would dream of such data to be true and would endorse spreading such news with every penny.
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post #4577 of 4651
I just bought my PS3, and I'm already building a BR collection. Actually I know more people that bought it as a BR player than I do as a game system. Although I know many 30 somethings and above.
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post #4578 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

... Actually I know more people that bought it as a BR player than I do as a game system...

Funny you mention that... I noticed in an ad this weekend that a Sony brand stand-alone BluRay player was being sold for $399. All it will do is play movies ... why would anyone buy that unit when, for the SAME PRICE, they can buy a PS3 that is infinitely more functional? (OK, so "infinitely" might be just a bit of an exaggeration.)

That's a bit like trying to sell a basic Subaru Impreza for the same price as a WRX-STi ... who's gonna opt for the less capable version? (And yes, I know I'm preaching to the choir on this forum.)
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post #4579 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Corey, yes it does. Read it again. This time in its entirety.

Marz, wouldn't it make more sense to have a profitable business plan in place for the next 5-10 years until downloadable HD movies can become a reality, instead of spending millions simply to (allegedly) confuse the consumer and stall the adoption of HDM? Yes, yes it would. Won't the HDM players reach $99 pricetags within 1-2 years time, essentially replacing regular DVD players in all stores and leaving the consumer no choice but to go home with an HDM player whether they wanted one or not? Yes, yes they will. Since Sony is Microsoft's number one competitor in the console realm, and since Sony banked their entire share of the console market on forcing the adoption of their next video format, wouldn't it be in Microsoft's best interest NOT to aid Sony in achieving their goals? HD DVD being the anti-Sony is reason enough for Microsoft to genuinely support and bolster HD DVD. And hell, what if HD DVD won? Then what? Is Microsoft going to take everyone's players away and make them download movies on their computers instead?

Microsoft supporting Blu-Ray would be like Apple including Windows as their default OS. It's got nothing to do with delaying HDM adoption until Microsoft "perfects" movie downloads. Lord knows Microsoft couldn't perfect anything whether they had 5 or 5,000 years. The only company who should have a vested interest in delaying HDM adoption for internet-delivered high definition is Apple. You know, that company whose audio/video devices and software can actually be used by normal people.

Next you're going to try and tell me Windows Vista is just a half-hearted ploy by Microsoft to stall the adoption of Windows XP until they perfect this other super-awesome operating system they really want people to buy instead.
post #4580 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

I just bought my PS3, and I'm already building a BR collection. Actually I know more people that bought it as a BR player than I do as a game system. Although I know many 30 somethings and above.

i'm right there with you man!
i have 1 PS3 game and am going to use it primarily for blu-ray.
on the other hand i've got a wii with a ton of games!

not to rain on anyones parade, but isn't physical media a dying bread anyway?
how long do you guys project until we see the majority of movies go download only?
5 years, 10 years?
post #4581 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoami View Post

not to rain on anyones parade, but isn't physical media a dying bread anyway?

I think movie rentals are definitely going the way of on-demand streaming or DRM'd download. Netflix is already experimenting with On-Demand movies for their subscribers that use Windows. They're a far cry from HD, but it's a start.

However, I think there will always be a market for physical media movies for purchase. I know that when I buy the Star Wars trilogy for the last time (if that ever happens) I want it to be on something that I can keep. I don't want to depend on a hard disk or a single device's memory. Whether it's a Blu-ray disc or a dedicated flash chip or something else doesn't matter. I want a physical possession to own.

Of course, if that physical media is so full of DRM that I can't play it without MS's permission in triplicate anyway then the point is sort of moot.
post #4582 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Why do you keep repeating this retarded Microsoft FUD?

Microsoft isn't the company that is betting the farm on next-gen movie downloads. That company is Apple.

Microsoft is simply interested in using downloads to help sales of its Xbox, while Apple needs that market more to sustain its iPod domination, along with their revised AppleTV strategy.

You simply do not know what you are talking about.

Gosh M$ are such pretty and innocent players that they can do no wrong, and THIS on a Mac site.
I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

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post #4583 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Unless the "last physical format" he's talking about is plain ol' DVD, those comments don't support your claims. And he's right; HD DVD or Blu-Ray will be the last physical format, but we still need them in the interim if we are to enjoy high-definition movies and games for the next 10 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

If we reach broadband speeds in 4 years that make a 50GB download take a matter of minutes instead of days, it certainly won't be widespread enough for it to be the ONLY means provided of getting movies and games for the next-generation xBox.

So which is it? 10 years or 4?


What happens when the Analogue signal gets switched off next year? whats happening to the bandwidth that will be freed up? you REALLY think things wont change in regards to Data delivery?


Have Sony said they will keep the PS3 up and running for 10 years as they have done with their last TWO consoles?

Assuming somewhere between 4 to 10 years (apparently in your oppinion) before data delivery speeds are high enough for game and movie download, then Sonys "PS4" will arrive at some point during that time frame.

What I say about didgital delivery is VERY reasonable.

oh, and on HDD sizes, you REALLY think there isnt a way round that? you really think that HDD sizes will stay the same for the next 4-10 years?
I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

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post #4584 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

Gosh M$ are such pretty and innocent players that they can do no wrong, and THIS on a Mac site.

MIcrosoft does plenty wrong. I was anti-Redmond while you Sonytards thought that getting a pink Walkman in the '80's was revolutionary.

But when I bash Redmond, it's for their substantial misdeeds and not some imagined conspiratorial nonsense about wanting to rule the world of downloads.

Forcing computer makers to pay for a Windows licence for each computer whether or not they loaded it was a downright despicable thing to do to drown out any competition.

But backing the HD-DVD standard to give the Xbox a competitive advantage against the PS3 is not threatening, it's simply good business sense (for them, I mean.)

Anyone who think that Microsoft is the same giant they used to be isn't paying attention. The idea that they are spreading money around to stall the use of discs in favour of downloading is ludicrous.

Microsoft cannot hinder the use of HD media all by itself. And they are smart enough to know that. Even if the download market matured overnight, there are half a dozen companies (Apple, TIVO etc.) that would compete fiercely with Redmond and have a good chance of winning.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #4585 of 4651
Warner has once again denied claims that they've decided to go Blu-Ray exclusive. And Sony's Stringer is back to saying the format war is far from over. Seems if Warner was honestly going Blu-Ray exclusive in a few weeks, Stringer would know about it, and thusly would be far less modest about his format's lead over HD DVD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

So which is it? 10 years or 4?

It's all guesswork Walter. In major cities, it's very possible we may see 25GB downloads which can finish in an hour within four years. But that kind of bandwidth won't be widespread enough for downloadable delivery to be the ONLY option for consumers for at least 10 years. That is my guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

oh, and on HDD sizes, you REALLY think there isnt a way round that? you really think that HDD sizes will stay the same for the next 4-10 years?

Considering the current xBox 360 ships with a 20GB drive and the PS3 with an 40 or 80GB drive, I imagine a terabyte of storage will be about the maximum both companies will be able to afford to put in their next-generation consoles, which should arrive in 3-4 years too soon to abandon good ol' store-bought optical media.
post #4586 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

MIcrosoft does plenty wrong. I was anti-Redmond while you Sonytards thought that getting a pink Walkman in the '80's was revolutionary.

But when I bash Redmond, it's for their substantial misdeeds and not some imagined conspiratorial nonsense about wanting to rule the world of downloads.

Forcing computer makers to pay for a Windows licence for each computer whether or not they loaded it was a downright despicable thing to do to drown out any competition.

But backing the HD-DVD standard to give the Xbox a competitive advantage against the PS3 is not threatening, it's simply good business sense (for them, I mean.)

Anyone who think that Microsoft is the same giant they used to be isn't paying attention. The idea that they are spreading money around to stall the use of discs in favour of downloading is ludicrous.

Microsoft cannot hinder the use of HD media all by itself. And they are smart enough to know that. Even if the download market matured overnight, there are half a dozen companies (Apple, TIVO etc.) that would compete fiercely with Redmond and have a good chance of winning.

Interesting.... I can't think of any corporation doing things right for anyone but themselves. Even Apple screwed it's die hard supporters with initial PowerPC implementation in the 90's, then again when G4's ran out of steam to compete with p4/athlon.

I had created my account here with my PM6100 & PM9600, hence the bitter username.

It's easy to get caught up on ethics of this and that corporations, but the bottomline is that corporations are here to make money and that's all it's good for. And ethics and money do not mix very well.
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post #4587 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

MIcrosoft does plenty wrong. I was anti-Redmond while you Sonytards thought that getting a pink Walkman in the '80's was revolutionary.

Nice insult doesn't really add any weight to what you say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

But when I bash Redmond, it's for their substantial misdeeds and not some imagined conspiratorial nonsense about wanting to rule the world of downloads.

Even when the imagined words come out of the mouths of the highups in M$?

ok, you know best

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Forcing computer makers to pay for a Windows licence for each computer whether or not they loaded it was a downright despicable thing to do to drown out any competition.

agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

But backing the HD-DVD standard to give the Xbox a competitive advantage against the PS3 is not threatening, it's simply good business sense (for them, I mean.)

So why are they including movie downloads as part of the xbox live package? or have you made the mistake of falling for M$ own "give the customer a choice" line ie HD-DVD add-on but have movie downloads as well? I guess you have, which is great because thats just what they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Anyone who think that Microsoft is the same giant they used to be isn't paying attention. The idea that they are spreading money around to stall the use of discs in favour of downloading is ludicrous.

M$ are a joke to those who can see, but don't let the sleeping dragon fool you into getting too close, as you seem to be. It is not the last time they spend their way into a market xbox is bleeding cash, so is zune. but according to you thats something they don't do.. ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Microsoft cannot hinder the use of HD media all by itself. And they are smart enough to know that. Even if the download market matured overnight, there are half a dozen companies (Apple, TIVO etc.) that would compete fiercely with Redmond and have a good chance of winning.

THATS WHY they teamed up with Toshiba to push its proprietary disc format that no other manufacturers want to touch because they can't see how to make a profit out of it. Sound familiar?

Even if M$ didn't pay out the 150 million and it was all Toshiba's money its still a foolish way to run a business ie into the ground. at this rate NBC handing back cash to advertisers looks similarly foolish.
I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

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post #4588 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Warner has once again denied claims that they've decided to go Blu-Ray exclusive. And Sony's Stringer is back to saying the format war is far from over. Seems if Warner was honestly going Blu-Ray exclusive in a few weeks, Stringer would know about it, and thusly would be far less modest about his format's lead over HD DVD.


It's all guesswork Walter. In major cities, it's very possible we may see 25GB downloads which can finish in an hour within four years. But that kind of bandwidth won't be widespread enough for downloadable delivery to be the ONLY option for consumers for at least 10 years. That is my guess.

Considering the current xBox 360 ships with a 20GB drive and the PS3 with an 40 or 80GB drive, I imagine a terabyte of storage will be about the maximum both companies will be able to afford to put in their next-generation consoles, which should arrive in 3-4 years too soon to abandon good ol' store-bought optical media.

Once again, what do you think Warner was going to say considering that we're in the middle of a holiday shopping season?

Also, again you are off the mark with Stringer. True, I'll give you that Stringer probably needs to just shut his yap, but to give the false picture of his and/or Sony's commitement to Blu-ray is just simple FUD on your part...

Stringer: "We remain totally committed to Blu-ray"

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=745

Quote:
Once again, comments from Sir Howard Stringer, CEO of Sony, have been taken out of context and plastered across news sites as proof Sony's diminishing commitment to Blu-ray (despite actual actions by the company, of course). And once again, Scott Hettrick of HiHD is forced to set the record straight - Sony "remain[s] totally committed to Blu-ray."

At a recent media roundtable in Japan, with both the Associated Press and CNBC present, Sir Howard made it clear that Blu-ray is the best high definition format available.

"We believe Blu-ray has the best picture, more particularly the best security, the best capacity for future improvements and the amount of content we generate. And this last week we sold more hardware than HD-DVD, the total number of Blu-ray capable devices in the US is at 2.7 million in the US compared to 750,000 HD-DVD. We're selling software 2:1 on titles in the US, 3:1 in Europe, and Blu-ray recorders here in Japan stand at 98% of the market."
post #4589 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Once again, what do you think Warner was going to say considering that we're in the middle of a holiday shopping season?

Also, again you are off the mark with Stringer. True, I'll give you that Stringer probably needs to just shut his yap, but to give the false picture of his and/or Sony's commitement to Blu-ray is just simple FUD on your part...

Stringer: "We remain totally committed to Blu-ray"

Um, I never questioned or doubted Sony's commitment to Blu-Ray. I just find it interesting, and rather telling, that Sony's CEO does not consider the HDM war as in-the-bag for Blu-Ray as some Blu-Ray fans do.

And you're right about Warner; they're not going to let on ahead of time whether or not they're going format-exclusive. Most certainly, just because a company denies something doesn't mean it isn't true. We'll see how the Potter numbers fair next week, but I'd be surprised if HD DVD didn't sell enough to justify the cost of continuing to author in both formats.
post #4590 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Marz, wouldn't it make more sense to have a profitable business plan in place for the next 5-10 years until downloadable HD movies can become a reality, instead of spending millions simply to (allegedly) confuse the consumer and stall the adoption of HDM? Yes, yes it would.

Profitable? Like trying to ensure that HDi and their VC-1 codec is on next generation discs profitable? Because there's certainly no profit being made on the hardware side for Toshiba who has certainly priced out any competion in selling their players at a loss (you can look at Onkyo who recently stopped any production of HD DVD players because of this). And even then, HD DVD is more of a backup plan to the true reality that even Bill Gates talks about--that they wan't everything streamed from a hard disk...and you can bet your tuckus that their going to have their licenses, codecs, interactivity code, DRM, etc. all over it. So, yeah, it totally makes sense that they are stifling the high-def opitical market, as downloads are their ultimate goal and where they would get the most PROFIT from in that they'll sell consumers movies via their download fees.

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Won't the HDM players reach $99 pricetags within 1-2 years time, essentially replacing regular DVD players in all stores and leaving the consumer no choice but to go home with an HDM player whether they wanted one or not? Yes, yes they will.

There you go again, as if consumers are robbed of their agency. No, consumers always have a choice. And unfortunately, due to Microsoft and Toshiba taking on the rest of the industry most consumers are going to wait it out until a clear victor emerges or not buy at all making the market niche, especially if it drags on 1-2 years time. This will leave DVD as the optical format going forward (also a win for Toshiba as they have many vested royalties in the format), with...you guessed it "downloads" being offered in high def with yours truly, Microsoft waiting in the wing for those interested consumers.

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Since Sony is Microsoft's number one competitor in the console realm, and since Sony banked their entire share of the console market on forcing the adoption of their next video format, wouldn't it be in Microsoft's best interest NOT to aid Sony in achieving their goals? HD DVD being the anti-Sony is reason enough for Microsoft to genuinely support and bolster HD DVD. And hell, what if HD DVD won? Then what? Is Microsoft going to take everyone's players away and make them download movies on their computers instead?

First, Sony isn't forcing anything, again, consumers have the agency to buy or not to buy the PS3. Second, yes it is in Microsoft's best interest not to aid Sony, but is it in their best interest to also stagnate the optical market...why yes, yes it is as the amount of revenue they'll get from downoads will far outweigh the revenue from a product that has 20-30 marketshare and is going up against a format that is widely adopted by the industry as a whole. The other reason you fail to be mentioning is that Microsoft is basically supporting HD DVD because they were infuriated by not having their HDi proprietary interactivity code on Blu-ray...so, I guess it is alright for them to blow up the high-def optical market because they didn't get their way according to you huh?

Be honest with yourself. If Microsoft was REALLY interested in the HD DVD format as you claim they are, why didn't they include an internal drive in the Xbox360? You know if they're that interested in seeing HD DVD succeed? Was it because they were protecting the "choice" of the consumer....rubbish. Again, the consumer would have the choice to buy or not to buy the 360 if it had an internal HD DVD drive. They wan't to stifle the high-def optical market so as to steer consumers to digital delivery where they would profit the most. I gave you two examples of Microsoftees saying just what I'm telling you here, and yet you attempt to rationalize the main driver for Microsoft as being just to support HD DVD. Don't be naive.

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Microsoft supporting Blu-Ray would be like Apple including Windows as their default OS. It's got nothing to do with delaying HDM adoption until Microsoft "perfects" movie downloads. Lord knows Microsoft couldn't perfect anything whether they had 5 or 5,000 years. The only company who should have a vested interest in delaying HDM adoption for internet-delivered high definition is Apple. You know, that company whose audio/video devices and software can actually be used by normal people.

No, Microsoft supporting Blu-ray would be like them joining the DVD Forum and diplomatically coming to an agreement on a standard. Funny how 169 other companies came to an agreement on the standard of Blu-ray via the BDA, but somehow, Microsoft got their panties all in a wad. Moreover, your wrong again as Apple has a vested interest in Blu-ray as well, being in the patent pool for H.264 which is used on most Blu-ray discs and being a member of the BDA Board of Directors where they are getting royalties.

Where's Microsoft?...there's your answer...no HDi for you. (The BDA as a body voted for BD-J)

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Next you're going to try and tell me Windows Vista is just a half-hearted ploy by Microsoft to stall the adoption of Windows XP until they perfect this other super-awesome operating system they really want people to buy instead.

No, I would just simply tell you that Windows Vista is just a half-hearted ploy by Microsoft to gouge consumers into thinking it is any different that their previous OS and make bank. Vista sucks, plain and simple. I know because I manage over 18,000 systems in an enterprise with it and it is nothing but endless headaches, but I have job security with it that's for sure :-). The super-awesome operating system is made by their competitor, Apple...the one I can take solace in going home too.
post #4591 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Profitable? Like trying to ensure that HDi and their VC-1 codec is on next generation discs profitable?

So this is a way for Microsoft to profit off of HD DVD's success. But...
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

So, yeah, it totally makes sense that they are stifling the high-def opitical market, as downloads are their ultimate goal and where they would get the most PROFIT from in that they'll sell consumers movies via their download fees.

...They're only spending millions on the format in an attempt to deter people from buying anything at all for the next 5-10 years? \ Hey here's a crazy idea: maybe Microsoft genuinely wants HD DVD to succeed in the optical realm so they have a source of income for the next 5-10 years until the world is sufficiently wired for internet-only based delivery of high definition material?
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

There you go again, as if consumers are robbed of their agency. No, consumers always have a choice.

Show me where I can buy a 46" television today that isn't High Definition. Like HDTV, HDM players will find their way in to most consumer's homes simply because when their old DVD player dies and they go to the store to pick up a new one, HDM players will either be the only thing lining the shelves or the additional cost to be able to play both DVDs and next-generation DVDs will be insignificant enough that they may as well pay the extra couple bucks. This is what I mean by "have no choice".
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

First, Sony isn't forcing anything, again, consumers have the agency to buy or not to buy the PS3.

A consumer can't purchase a PS3 sans Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray is the reason the PS3 started at hundreds of dollars more than the xBox 360. Sony knew this would negatively impact sales, but they did it anyway. Even if the PS3 sold 1/4th as many consoles as the PS2, that's still a buttload of unintentionally purchased Blu-Ray players. It's the Internet Explorer affect. As I've said before, if Sony had offered a PS3 without Blu-Ray for hundreds of dollars less at launch time, I'd bet the farm that most buyers would choose to opt out of Blu-Ray.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Be honest with yourself. If Microsoft was REALLY interested in the HD DVD format as you claim they are, why didn't they include an internal drive in the Xbox360?

For a multitude of possible reasons, all of which have been pointed out just recently in this thread. Maybe they didn't want to try and sell $600 consoles at a $300 loss like Sony. Maybe the format wasn't readily available at the time they needed to start manufacturing both systems and games. HD DVD didn't begin shipping until March 2006, and the xBox 360 was available for the 2005 Christmas shopping season. If you remember, when the xBox 360 shipped everyone was still under the impression that the PS3 would be arriving in the spring for the same or less than an xBox 360 cost. Getting a leg up on Sony in the console market, and having a semi-affordable console, was obviously more important to Microsoft's gaming division than shilling a new disc format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

so, I guess it is alright for them to blow up the high-def optical market because they didn't get their way according to you huh?

lol, you heard it here first folks: HD DVD is ruining the high-def optical market HD DVD is the reason you get a BOGO on Blu-Ray discs every other week for the past three months, and why you can pick up a Blu-Ray player for $280 already. Competition's been good to you.
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So... Did anyone get their Harry Potter in HiDef?..

I had received my HD-DVD copy of HPOOTP from Amazon yesterday and watched it with my wife. It definitely was better than my local theater experience for sure.

The video quality and the audio in TrueHD is just top notch!.

Now, I can not wait to get my Bourne series and Stardust in HD-DVD. I can already see Stardust being a popular replay material for guests. Decent fairytale movies for family are hard to find these days.
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post #4593 of 4651
It's been top of my Netflix queue for awhile, but I apparently didn't have it there early enough.
post #4594 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

So... Did anyone get their Harry Potter in HiDef?..

I had received my HD-DVD copy of HPOOTP from Amazon yesterday and watched it with my wife. It definitely was better than my local theater experience for sure.

The video quality and the audio in TrueHD is just top notch!.

Now, I can not wait to get my Bourne series and Stardust in HD-DVD. I can already see Stardust being a popular replay material for guests. Decent fairytale movies for family are hard to find these days.

I bought and watched the BD Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. It both looked and sounded really good. That was the first time I had seen it and the movie did a good job of getting me totally involved.

I also watched the SD-DVD of The Bourne Ultimatum. The movie itself left me seriously underwhelmed as it was so derivative and seemed tb be a by-the-numbers repeat of the previous two. In my mind, it was Franka Potente that really made the first movie shine. Once she was killed in Bourne 2 the movie and series seemed to loose its soul.

My Amazon order for Pirates 3 and Cast Away seems to be somewhere in USPS never-neverland. Hopefully it'll show up tomorrow. In the meantime I have Mr. Brooks and The Legend of Zorro courtesy of Netflix to watch.
post #4595 of 4651
Ratatouille = single best HD release thus far.
post #4596 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post

I bought and watched the BD Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. It both looked and sounded really good. That was the first time I had seen it and the movie did a good job of getting me totally involved.

My local theater was quite blur with below average audio system, it was distracting viewing at the theater. I actually enjoyed it more viewing at home for the second time. The last three HP series have been quite good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post

I also watched the SD-DVD of The Bourne Ultimatum. The movie itself left me seriously underwhelmed as it was so derivative and seemed tb be a by-the-numbers repeat of the previous two. In my mind, it was Franka Potente that really made the first movie shine. Once she was killed in Bourne 2 the movie and series seemed to loose its soul.

Hey... don't spoil it, yet. I've yet to see the whole series other than patchie viewing from directv. This one is almost like a blind buy for me. At least my in-law wanted me to get it in HD-DVD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post

My Amazon order for Pirates 3 and Cast Away seems to be somewhere in USPS never-neverland. Hopefully it'll show up tomorrow. In the meantime I have Mr. Brooks and The Legend of Zorro courtesy of Netflix to watch.

I've been pretty lucky with USPS delivery time. Most of my Amazon orders get shipped from about 40 miles from where I live and usually get the package within 2 days after shipping. I've had very few shipping from seatle or northern cal that took more than a week, though.
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post #4597 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

So this is a way for Microsoft to profit off of HD DVD's success. But...

If by profitable you mean having the hardware company (Toshiba) sell players at a loss and have your movies with your codecs and proprietary interactivity software outsold by the competition 3:1...sure, I guess you could call it profitable...but I guess a kid with a lemonade stand can be pretty profitable too, huh...

Quote:
...They're only spending millions on the format in an attempt to deter people from buying anything at all for the next 5-10 years? \ Hey here's a crazy idea: maybe Microsoft genuinely wants HD DVD to succeed in the optical realm so they have a source of income for the next 5-10 years until the world is sufficiently wired for internet-only based delivery of high definition material?

Whoa, whoa, whoa...who has said anything about "in an attempt to deter people from buying anything at all for the next 5-10 years?" That's not at all what I'm claiming. You're simply trying to change what I've been stating. I'm claiming that they are stagnating the optical market, that is making a victor less plausible, and sure they may make some lemonade money along the way, but their goal is to keep the market relatively niche since they don't have their proprietary software (HDi) on Blu-ray movies that look to be the inevitable victor of the war. If they can keep high-def optical from catching on, they profit more from downloads in the future...really...quite...basic.

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Show me where I can buy a 46" television today that isn't High Definition. Like HDTV, HDM players will find their way in to most consumer's homes simply because when their old DVD player dies and they go to the store to pick up a new one, HDM players will either be the only thing lining the shelves or the additional cost to be able to play both DVDs and next-generation DVDs will be insignificant enough that they may as well pay the extra couple bucks. This is what I mean by "have no choice".

They will certainly not be lining the shelves if the HDM market remains niche...exactly what Microsoft wants. And it will happen if there are two formats in the HDM.

Quote:
A consumer can't purchase a PS3 sans Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray is the reason the PS3 started at hundreds of dollars more than the xBox 360. Sony knew this would negatively impact sales, but they did it anyway. Even if the PS3 sold 1/4th as many consoles as the PS2, that's still a buttload of unintentionally purchased Blu-Ray players. It's the Internet Explorer affect. As I've said before, if Sony had offered a PS3 without Blu-Ray for hundreds of dollars less at launch time, I'd bet the farm that most buyers would choose to opt out of Blu-Ray.

Well following your logic, when I buy Wii, I ought to be able to buy it sans the drive they chose. Or the DVD drive the 360 chose. Maybe I ought to choose the type of drive I get in every device?...perhaps hey Walter, put me up for a VHS drive will ya! Maybe Apple should have consulted with Microsoft before they sold the iPod + iTunes, you know because people don't have the "choice" to play their iTunes music on their other mp3 players other than their iPod. Perhaps we can all turn French for you there Corey, and socialize our capatilistic endeavors so that when any company comes up with one of their bright ideas, they will be forced to either not include it or just share it with every other competitor.

And funny, the only "unintentionally purchased" complainers I hear are from the HD DVD side...most PS3 purchasers are quite satisfied with the extra functionality of the system. Wonder why that is?

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For a multitude of possible reasons, all of which have been pointed out just recently in this thread. Maybe they didn't want to try and sell $600 consoles at a $300 loss like Sony. Maybe the format wasn't readily available at the time they needed to start manufacturing both systems and games. HD DVD didn't begin shipping until March 2006, and the xBox 360 was available for the 2005 Christmas shopping season. If you remember, when the xBox 360 shipped everyone was still under the impression that the PS3 would be arriving in the spring for the same or less than an xBox 360 cost. Getting a leg up on Sony in the console market, and having a semi-affordable console, was obviously more important to Microsoft's gaming division than shilling a new disc format.

Or just MAYBE their end goal is to do exactly what they STATED. Imagine that...

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"The future is fast broadband and downloads. In fact, "At Microsoft, we'd rather HD wasn't on a disc."

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lol, you heard it here first folks: HD DVD is ruining the high-def optical market HD DVD is the reason you get a BOGO on Blu-Ray discs every other week for the past three months, and why you can pick up a Blu-Ray player for $280 already. Competition's been good to you.

LOL, you heard it here about 500 times folks, competition in the Home Video Market doesn't end with one format...VHS and DVD saw the same competition between vendors competing for your dollar. Some here obviously attempt to give HD DVD a bit more credit than they deserve with their paltry marketshare. No, you get BOGO because of the BDA and the holidays, the timing of the BOGOs is simply to prove that HD DVD is the next DIVX. Moreover, for those following the thread for the past couple of years, those of us in the Blu-ray camp have been stating for a while that prices would come down due to economies of scale, just like DVD. I know you're wanting to give HD DVD credit for things, but the one for sure thing you can give them credit for is confusing the consumer.
post #4598 of 4651
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Whoa, whoa, whoa...who has said anything about "in an attempt to deter people from buying anything at all for the next 5-10 years?" That's not at all what I'm claiming. You're simply trying to change what I've been stating. I'm claiming that they are stagnating the optical market, that is making a victor less plausible, and sure they may make some lemonade money along the way, but their goal is to keep the market relatively niche since they don't have their proprietary software (HDi) on Blu-ray movies that look to be the inevitable victor of the war. If they can keep high-def optical from catching on, they profit more from downloads in the future...really...quite...basic.

Isn't "deterring people from buying anything" the same thing as "keep the high-def optical market from catching on"? And why would Microsoft presume that if optical HDM doesn't catch on, people would automatically opt to purchase online movies from them, not Apple?
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

They will certainly not be lining the shelves if the HDM market remains niche...exactly what Microsoft wants. And it will happen if there are two formats in the HDM.

HD DVD has already reached $199, and Blu-Ray $280. In another year I imagine they'll be $99 and $150, respectively. Who's going to buy a regular DVD player at those prices? Hell, I imagine a lot of player manufacturer's will begin to cease production or non-HDM players by that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Well following your logic, when I buy Wii, I ought to be able to buy it sans the drive they chose. Or the DVD drive the 360 chose. Maybe I ought to choose the type of drive I get in every device?...perhaps hey Walter, put me up for a VHS drive will ya! Maybe Apple should have consulted with Microsoft before they sold the iPod + iTunes, you know because people don't have the "choice" to play their iTunes music on their other mp3 players other than their iPod. Perhaps we can all turn French for you there Corey, and socialize our capatilistic endeavors so that when any company comes up with one of their bright ideas, they will be forced to either not include it or just share it with every other competitor.

Hey, if it wasn't for the fact that PS3 games come on Blu-Ray discs, Toshiba would have a strong case against Sony in the European market for monopolistic practices, much in the same way Microsoft is now forced to sell Windows without Internet Explorer on that continent. How's an up-and-comer supposed to get a break when someone like Sony uses their lead in the game console market to push out competing formats
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Or just MAYBE their end goal is to do exactly what they STATED. Imagine that...

Hey look, here's more of Microsoft trying to kill optical media in favor of HD movies nobody can download or store for another 4-10 years
post #4599 of 4651
Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers ending December 9th

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...1607/index.php

WE: BD-76% HDD-24% YTD: BD-65% HDD-35% SI: BD-62% HDD-38%

HD DVD just can't catch a break I tell ya. But that's good from a wanting to end the format war as quickly as possible perspective.
post #4600 of 4651
C'mon Bluray, hurry up and win this thing already!
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