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Blu-ray vs. HD DVD (2007) - Page 3

post #81 of 4651
12/31/06 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

As marzetta7 just pointed out, there is now the $499 Samsung option. Even then, I never said I thought BD was unfairly priced higher -- I was wondering if for technical reasons it costs more to make the basic BD playback mechanism. BD movies cost more for technical reasons -- more changes need to be made to adapt a disc pressing plant to make BD than for HD DVD, and BD requires a special spin-coat process to protect its otherwise dangerously fragile construction.

The officially reduced price on Samsung BD player is $799, where recently released 2nd generation HD-DVD player is $499. However, the street price may be even lower, but at $499 Sammy is probably a refurb item which is readily available online. The brand new HD-A2 can be had for around $399 and will likely hit lower prices in next 6 months.

Anyway, when a product is priced higher but does not deliver at the level quality of the cheaper counter part, then the product is unfairly priced. Consumer pays for the new technology, but the new technology has no benefit in the field of application, then it's just waste of resources and cost.
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post #82 of 4651
12/31/06 at 1:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

If you think the BD players are unfairly priced and higher, then buying BD movies would shock you once more. In average, BD movie titles cost more than the average HD-DVD movies. Of course, if you're buying a combo HD-DVD(which I hate supporting), which has DVD layer plus the HD-DVD layer on the flip side, would cost about the same as the BD movie prices, but most HD-DVD (dual layer) movies are cheaper.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing this. A quick perusal of the respective sections at Amazon shows most Blu-ray movies are $30 or $40 retail, just like most HD DVD movies (non-combo). And both formats are 30% off at Amazon.
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post #83 of 4651
12/31/06 at 1:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post


And you're right about Hi-Def format popularity only in the enthusiast community at this time, however, the potential of reaching the key price point to lure in consumers is more feasible with HD-DVD than BD. You can find standalone DVD players as low as $399, and will get even cheaper in the $299 within next 6 months. ,,,Eitherway, HD-DVD has won the Hi-Def format war in 2006, even with the great trojan horse from Sony.

At this time the pricepoint doesn't matter to the average consumer as they don't have a HD TV. You are right though about 2006. But that's like saying in a mile race one contest broke from the starting gate first. It's starting to look like whichever format backers go bankrupt last will be less the looser. HDTV prices have dropped but must drop even more dramatically before there's a critical mass of sets out there for consumers to embrace a HD DVD format.
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post #84 of 4651
12/31/06 at 4:29pm


Well I was at Wal-Mart last night, the had two PS3's in stock, almost bought one! But at $600+tax (7%) that's $642! Came to my senses, and walked away, why you ask? Price for one, then I'd have to invest in Bly-Ray movies and (some) games (more money, at one time I had over 500 DVD's, so that's like $10K), and finally I do have a HDTV but it's only 1366Hx768V (I believe), so if I want the full 1080p (1920x1080), I'd need to invest in a new HDTV (more money, and I'd like something in the 42" to 46" range, so that's like an additional $2K).

Seriously, I do think HD movies will be slow to catch on!

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post #85 of 4651
1/1/07 at 11:16am
Plus Frank you'll probably find that for best sound your receiver needs HDMI inputs, so for most people that's a potential upgrade cost.

For the average family with two to three kids, one or two car payments and, if they're lucky, house payments otherwise rent, the cost is pretty steep right now.
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post #86 of 4651
1/1/07 at 11:49am
Ah, 2007! The year of the triumph of HD DVD.
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post #87 of 4651
1/1/07 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Ah, 2007! The year of the triumph of HD DVD.

Considering that DVD just triumphed over VHS about a month ago, I think you're going to have to wait until around 2016 for that to happen.
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post #88 of 4651
1/1/07 at 1:00pm
Triumph is not even close, for either of these formats. AACS was just cracked on the Doom9 forums for HDDVD. Bluray also uses AACS, so that will come crumbling down soon. It was bound to happen, this was just earlier than anyone expected. Until the common consumer is given a REAL reason to use these new formats, I see no reason why DVD could not live happily for another 5 years.
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post #89 of 4651
1/1/07 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvb View Post

Triumph is not even close, for either of these formats. AACS was just cracked on the Doom9 forums for HDDVD. Bluray also uses AACS, so that will come crumbling down soon. It was bound to happen, this was just earlier than anyone expected. Until the common consumer is given a REAL reason to use these new formats, I see no reason why DVD could not live happily for another 5 years.



OK, so now that it's actually 2007 this thread is now official?

I think shetline was being sarcastic?

But cracking the HD DRM schemes may be a critical element in HD media sales (for both formats). Blu-Ray has additional DRM schemes that HD-DVD doesn't have, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

To take one scenario, suppose HD DRM is cracked and HD storage (burners and media) become the norm, then a fraction of HD users would rent and copy, instead of purchase HD media (similar to what some DVD users do today). This would have some impact on total HD ROM media sold.

Or take another scenario, HD DRM isn't cracked, and HD OTAB isn't DRM'ed (like what alot of it is today, or it's cracked) and HD storage becomes the norm, then a fraction of users may just record and rip HD OTAB and forego HD ROM purchases. 720P or 1080i still looks pretty good WRT SD DVD's.

The other scenarios like HD library costs (given most users investments in DVD libraries, given existing DVD's rent, recompress, and rip status, cheap SL DVD blank media prices), HD HW costs, two HD formats, and that OTAB won't be the norm until 2009, suggests that HD ROM market penetration will be a tough road ahead.

So basically, I'm guessing HD DVD's (both formats together or whichever format "wins") won't outsell SD DVD's until something like 2015.

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post #90 of 4651
1/1/07 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I think shetline was being sarcastic?

A combination of sarcasm and wishful thinking, since I just bought an HD DVD player... and even then, my flip remark was about the idea of HD DVD triumphing over Blu-Ray, not over standard DVD, as a bunch of people seem to have taken it. Any HD format beating standard DVD is obviously a long way off.
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post #91 of 4651
1/1/07 at 7:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloss View Post

As far as that goes, the Wii is blowing them all away. So...yes, I've seen a console as popular as the PS3.

People who own PS2s are not guaranteed purchasers for the PS3. The PS2 offered DVD, which was a technology that showed immediate advantages even on older televisions. Blu-Ray is only advantageous if you've got a large HDTV to view it on, which means that the vast majority of consumers won't care.

Keep in mind that the PS2 also launched at half the price of the PS3, $299.

There's nothing guaranteed about Blu-Ray at this point. HD-DVD is simply at a better market position, with more affordable hardware and equivilant picture quality.

edit: spelling and corrections.

1. Which console has been that popular? Why will the Wii "blow them all away?"
2. No, but it makes it more likely.
3. And a standalone HD-DVD player for $1000 will be advantageous? They both have the same problem.
4. Your last point is totally unsupported. Why is it in a better market position?. You offer no evidence of that whatsoever.

bytemymac:

Quote:
Well... I'm not sure how closely you've been following the gaming console market, but Wii has been kicking PS3's butt since day one and the demand has gone up even higher. People have to wake up and smell the coffee, because PS3 isn't PS2. A simple reason is that PS2 wasn't selling at $499/$599 tag, and it doesn't matter what HiDef dvd format PS3 can play..... Basically, PS3 is too expensive as a gaming console, but a cheap BD player. What demographics of consumers can this product be matched to? Only those enthusiasts.... and they are numbered and so is PS3 sales.

Probably closer than you have. You also apparently cannot understand the point that you can't yet judge the PS3's sales because of limited supply. You also go on to make the common mistake of claiming "it's too expensive." At this point, that market says otherwise. It turns out there are lots of people willing to pay that price. One anecdotal point on that topic: When the Intellivsion came out in the 1980 it cost $300.00. That equates to $762.00 today. It sold well until the video game market crashed completely, and even though the Atari 2600 was less than half the price.
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post #92 of 4651
1/1/07 at 7:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

That's the hype of Sony marketing. The Playstation 2 was a killer product. I'll admit that it make the Xbox look like the rookie product it was. However Microsoft has made much more improvements IMO opinion from this generation than Sony has thus far. Of course they had a headstart so I'm willing to give the PS3 time.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=158897930&play=1#


Wii - 1.8million
PS3 - 750k
360 - 2million

NPD numbers. Not wholly accurate but close enough to see a trend. The Wii and Xbox 360 are taking advantage of the fact that they aren't trying to stuff a Cell proc and Blue laser into a box.

I just spoke with a friend that bough a 42" LCD and Xbox 360 for Xmas. She said that she wants to order and Xbox HD DVD add on because its so cheap.



Actually i've seen bunches of reports stating that people are walking into stores and finding PS3 available. The demand is no longer there for ebay which means Sony has pretty much saturated the "gotta have it" maket. The PS3 is going to be important to the battle but this is a war that cannot be won and will not be won. Universal players will rule the day in a couple of years. What HD DVD fans are fighting for now is getting some studio support parity for the players that are delivered that won't be Universal.

I don't know of anyone that can find them in stores right now, except for bundled versions. I also repeat...you can't see any "trend" at all because of the lack of supply. Check out http://ps3finder.com/ and tell me that's it's available in quantity. Yes, the ebay market has tanked. But that's because people flooded it with the systems. You may be right about Universal players, but my feeling is that one format or the other will win. I think the early advantage is Blu-Ray.
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post #93 of 4651
1/1/07 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixir View Post

this guy is off by so much its not even funny.

did you just wake up recently? who cares what the ps2 did because if you mess up this console's generation bad enough people aren't going to hop on board. no gaming machine has been number 1 three generations in a row to let you know since you're so keen on history repeating.

the xbox was microsofts first attempt at producing a machine, you shouldn't' forget that. this gen is isn't like last time, publishers didn't really know what to expect from microsoft, leaving the xbox lacking games but this time almost every one has hopped on board (GTA, virtue fighter 5) just to name two huge titles that were once exlcusive to the Playstation brand.


Fourth: the xbox360 sold a lot more during its launch. if the ps3 continues to have manufacturing issues they may sell a lot less next year than the 360 did. remember the 360 launched in europe, japan, and the U.S all at the same time, sony hasn't even launched the ps3 in europe yet!

"This guy" has been a member of of AI since January of 2000. Just FYI.

Secondly, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing. Are you 13 years old, perhaps? You seem to be focusing on availability of games as the sole driving factor in a console's success. The reality is both consoles will have comparable game availability. So, I know you're wacking off to the thought of "virtue fighter" [sic] on xBox 360, but try and take it easy. Lastly, you cannot compare sales of the 360 to the PS3 yet. There's no reason to assume the PS3 won't ramp up in terms of production. That is, unless you and your Mom know differently.
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post #94 of 4651
1/1/07 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Well stated. As you can see from the post above mine, some people here think the format war is all but over, but in reality, it has just begun.

Just to add to your sound logic, not only does the BDA have the bigge consortium, but also have the EXCLUSIVE power of Fox, Disney, MGM, and Lionsgate. Blu-ray definitely has a better chance in the studio side, the CE side, and the IT side. In summation, the industry in NOT on HD DVD's side.

Exactly. HD-DVD does have some advantages right now, including price. But, just about every other variable tilts in favor of Blu-Ray right now: The studios, storage capacity, PS3, and seemingly, mindshare in the general public. In my opinion, the movie availability is the most important. Unlike video games, there will be a real difference in that area.
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post #95 of 4651
1/1/07 at 9:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=158897930&play=1#


Wii - 1.8million
PS3 - 750k
360 - 2million

NPD numbers. Not wholly accurate but close enough to see a trend. The Wii and Xbox 360 are taking advantage of the fact that they aren't trying to stuff a Cell proc and Blue laser into a box .

That makes the PS3 sound like it's doing pretty good. Out for 1/13th of the time of the 360 and already sold 1/3 of the number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I just spoke with a friend that bough a 42" LCD and Xbox 360 for Xmas. She said that she wants to order and Xbox HD DVD add on because its so cheap.

Sounds to me like someone who failed Economics 101. How can something be "so cheap" when she needed to buy the 360 to begin with and the combination costs as much as the "expensive" PS3?
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post #96 of 4651
1/1/07 at 10:26pm
Why compare PS3 sales to Wii (a proprietary irrelevant format) or the Xbox 360 (DVD)? The sales of the PS3 should be compared to those of the HD-DVD add-on of the 360; which doesn't seem to be doing so well.

In volume, the PS3 may be behind the sales of the other consoles, but the demand is still there clearly. Though the PS3 is much harder to find, according to sales reports (the most recent I could find) the PS3 is beating the add-on by a margin of 5 to 1.

The PS3 will be a big factor in the format wars for two reasons:

1) Economies of scale - the PS3 will help bring down prices of Blu-ray drive components and Blu-ray media alike by increasing product of the media (even if we're talking games) and obviously the component usage. It's basic business that this will work to Blu-ray's advantage without any spin.

2) Easier to try the media - if there are Blu-ray players [PS3s] in someone's household, they are far more likely to pick it as the HD format just because they've already bought it in some form and it is already there.

I personally don't have a side decided as I don't really see the point of putting faith in one side, but looking at the technical specs of Blu-ray it looks superior, and from a business standpoint has an edge. Early to market has always been a false security to many formats or products in the past (see Dreamcast or Betamax),

I'll welcome either champion of the future, but right now Blu-ray looks like the safer investment and I personally will be buying/renting Blu-ray when my PS3 arrives in the next few days.
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post #97 of 4651
1/1/07 at 11:31pm
OK, that clenches it. Now that SDW2001 has come out for Blu-Ray, HD-DVD can't miss.
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post #98 of 4651
1/2/07 at 6:14am
Ps3's are sitting on shelves, floors across the country.

i dont even have to post links to stories or reports, you can easily find them if you desire to. best buy had a new years eve relaunch of ample amounts of ps3's and as of today most stores still have them available.

the Wii is selling like hottcakes in japan and are still hard to find even here in the states. go check your local store if you dont believe it.
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post #99 of 4651
1/2/07 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixir View Post

Ps3's are sitting on shelves, floors across the country.

i dont even have to post links to stories or reports, you can easily find them if you desire to. best buy had a new years eve relaunch of ample amounts of ps3's and as of today most stores still have them available.

the Wii is selling like hottcakes in japan and are still hard to find even here in the states. go check your local store if you dont believe it.

And yet you continue to compare the Wii to the PS3? There's no format war unless sony intends to make that mini-disc the next generation of HD. I don't think anyone expects the PS3 to outsell the Wii (at least in the short term), but I don't really think the Wii is that Next-Gen besides a new controller -- it's like cheering the Barbie dress-up laptop is outselling the MacBook.

As for PS3 demand, there's still the perception of lack of supply; when a promotion occurs like Futureshop [in Canada] announcing 1000 PS3s available online, they sold out in 1.5 hours [to Canadian residents only -- we've actually had better availability than most of the states]. When they start promoting PS3 is in stock, they sell. I'm sure the 20 foot high pyramid of Xbox 360s in every Best Buy helps show the dominance of HD DVD.
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post #100 of 4651
1/2/07 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst View Post

I don't think anyone expects the PS3 to outsell the Wii (at least in the short term), but I don't really think the Wii is that Next-Gen besides a new controller -- it's like cheering the Barbie dress-up laptop is outselling the MacBook.

...I'm sure the 20 foot high pyramid of Xbox 360s in every Best Buy helps show the dominance of HD DVD.

Hahahaha. LOL! I like, I like it.
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post #101 of 4651
1/2/07 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

That makes the PS3 sound like it's doing pretty good. Out for 1/13th of the time of the 360 and already sold 1/3 of the number.


Sounds to me like someone who failed Economics 101. How can something be "so cheap" when she needed to buy the 360 to begin with and the combination costs as much as the "expensive" PS3?


Because she had no idea that she could add HD movie playback for so cheap. The cost of the Xbox was free as it came with her 42" screen in a promo. Thus to her it's simply a $189 cost to get the latest in HD tech. We're both ordering when these buggers come back in stock.
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post #102 of 4651
1/2/07 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

OK, that clenches it. Now that SDW2001 has come out for Blu-Ray, HD-DVD can't miss.


First, fuck off, mmmk? Second, I haven't come out for anything. I'm saying it looks like it has the early edge, and there are number of advantages it seems to hold. HD-DVD might well win, or both may succeed with universal players. Who knows.
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post #103 of 4651
1/2/07 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixir View Post

Ps3's are sitting on shelves, floors across the country.

i dont even have to post links to stories or reports, you can easily find them if you desire to. best buy had a new years eve relaunch of ample amounts of ps3's and as of today most stores still have them available.

the Wii is selling like hottcakes in japan and are still hard to find even here in the states. go check your local store if you dont believe it.


I think you have plenty of time, it's just that you're totally wrong. Show one, just ONE major store that has them in stock (single units, not bundles). Amazon, Circuit City, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, EB...no one has them except in bundle format, and then they only have a few.

It's clear you're nothing but a Wii cheerleader. I'm glad you like it, but it's likely destined to fail. It has a proprietary format and no movie capabilities. The controller is unique but likely won't be adopted by the masses. Just watch.

Edit: Let me add to the chorus of voices saying that this thread is about Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD. It's not about console wars. I only went into that because of the PS3's Blu-Ray capability. The Wii shouldn't even enter the discussion.
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post #104 of 4651
1/2/07 at 10:35am
Easy, easy, guys. Let's all chill out a bit, and realize the inevitable win for Blu-ray Ok.

I wanted to share this with you all, especially the HD DVD zealots here who claim MPEG2 is the cause of poor quality on Blu-ray...

The Covenant Gets 5-star Rating

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/covenant.html

Quote:
Perhaps due the poor reputation of the film and its cheesy nature, I wasn't expecting much in the way of reference video from 'The Covenant.' I was quite wrong. This Blu-ray release really is fantastic, and a superior effort from Sony.

Presented in 2.35:1 widescreen and 1080p/MPEG-2 video, the presentation is flawless. Though I have no information from Sony to confirm, I suspect this is a true digital-to-digital telecine given how utterly pristine and glossy the image appears. Blacks and contrast are fantastic. Colors are skewed heavily towards blue/cyan, but fleshtones remain as accurate as could be expected given the overt stylization. Depth and detail remain excellent, and natural-hued scenes are even better, with the kind of eye-popping three-dimensional look that blew me away.

The only oddity is a scene about a third of the way through, when the Caleb character takes a drive out to a house in the country. Af first I thought a couple of shots appeared to suffer from bad video noise, until I realized it was actually raining. Oddly, it is not raining in the rest of the scene, so I'll just have to assume this is a flub. Otherwise, I'm giving 'The Covenant' a five-star video rating simply because I can't find a single thing wrong with it.

Doth my eyes decieve me!!! Did that just state we have excellent picture quality with the MPEG2 codec!! Much like Tears of the Sun, Invincible, Transporter, Transporter 2, Enemy of the State, Kingdom of Heaven, Ice Age 2, Black Hawk Down, and many, many more!

I think it is time for those claiming poor quality on Blu-ray due to MPEG2 or anything for that matter to wrap up the FUD, or their just purchased HD DVD player, and buy into the format that is continually putting out quality releases with more studio support and more industry support. Let's put the format war to an even quicker end.
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post #105 of 4651
1/2/07 at 10:38am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst View Post

As for PS3 demand, there's still the perception of lack of supply; when a promotion occurs like Futureshop [in Canada] announcing 1000 PS3s available online, they sold out in 1.5 hours [to Canadian residents only -- we've actually had better availability than most of the states].

Woot posted PS3s for one of their daily features a couple of weeks ago. Only 20GB models rather than the 60GB models most people want. Sold them for the $499 retail price plus $5 shipping. The 80 units they had were sold out within 1-2 minutes, during which their servers were hammered, and a lot of people left disappointed that night.
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post #106 of 4651
1/2/07 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Easy, easy, guys. Let's all chill out a bit, and realize the inevitable win for Blu-ray Ok.

I wanted to share this with you all, especially the HD DVD zealots here who claim MPEG2 is the cause of poor quality on Blu-ray...

The Covenant Gets 5-star Rating

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/covenant.html



Doth my eyes decieve me!!! Did that just state we have excellent picture quality with the MPEG2 codec!! Much like Tears of the Sun, Invincible, Transporter, Transporter 2, Enemy of the State, Kingdom of Heaven, Ice Age 2, Black Hawk Down, and many, many more!

I think it is time for those claiming poor quality on Blu-ray due to MPEG2 or anything for that matter to wrap up the FUD, or their just purchased HD DVD player, and buy into the format that is continually putting out quality releases with more studio support and more industry support. Let's put the format war to an even quicker end.


I must admit I am impressed that Sony is getting great quality from MPEG2 and PCM on a 25GB disc. I'm anxiously awaiting the full release of titles for Jan/Feb at CES from both platforms. The new stuff seems to be coming together very nicely on both formats.
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post #107 of 4651
1/2/07 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

What we AV enthusiasts are keen on...

Sooo..you've bought a HD display device? No?

Do you actually sit close enough to your display to really notice the difference? Do you have an idea of what this viewing distance might be?

But yes, the videophiles on AVS seem to favor HD-DVD today. But they are a fickle bunch really apt to turnover equipment and technology fairly quickly for even meager gains. The "cost advantage" of HD-DVD is in the noise factor for many posters on that forum. Heck, my entire system is in the noise factor for many posters in that forum and my gear is Denon, Von Schweikert and Sharp (yea and verily I live in the cheapest sections of the forum).

Dominance this early in the game is almost meaningless.

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post #108 of 4651
1/2/07 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Easy, easy, guys. Let's all chill out a bit, and realize the inevitable win for Blu-ray Ok.

I wanted to share this with you all, especially the HD DVD zealots here who claim MPEG2 is the cause of poor quality on Blu-ray...

The Covenant Gets 5-star Rating

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/covenant.html



Doth my eyes decieve me!!! Did that just state we have excellent picture quality with the MPEG2 codec!! Much like Tears of the Sun, Invincible, Transporter, Transporter 2, Enemy of the State, Kingdom of Heaven, Ice Age 2, Black Hawk Down, and many, many more!

I think it is time for those claiming poor quality on Blu-ray due to MPEG2 or anything for that matter to wrap up the FUD, or their just purchased HD DVD player, and buy into the format that is continually putting out quality releases with more studio support and more industry support. Let's put the format war to an even quicker end.

No one doubted capability of MPEG2, but MPEG2 on 25GB disc was limiting in storage which PQ was sacrified on near 2 hours long movies. Also, many had criticized Sony for using MPEG2 on even 50GB dual layer disc instead of AVC or VC-1, since it bares no benefit of 50GB capacity over VC-1 or AVC on 25/30GB capacity. Anyway, the reviewer is comparing the PQ among BD collections and we all know that it has been sub par on average. There were some BD movies like "Total Recall" originally release as MPEG2 on 25GB BD disc which was released on HD-DVD as VC-1 codec in Europe showing vast PQ improvements over the BD release. This is just one example, but if and when the initial BD releases were to be re-released on AVC or VC-1, it's more likely to see noticeable improvements over the MPEG2 versions.

Eitherway, the winner of the HiDef format would be the format that will deliver the best PQ at the cheapest cost and when the cost is nearing the cost of the SD-DVD. Well, the HDTV booming has started, so there soon be no concern about the added cost of HD display to joining in the new HD experience. Anyway, I'd have to restate that the cost will be the main driving factor for this format war, but the cost has to be $199 - $299 to be an effective hardware entry cost, but not at $399 or $499 even for BD. Most consumers would however compromise on the PQ but would not likely to compromise on the cost, and this is why the cost is the main driver. Hence, the benefit lies on the HD-DVD to win since it will get cheaper faster than the BD. There's a rumor that Toshiba will slash the price tag on the 2nd gen HD-DVD players at the CES and that would be one step closer to becoming a winner.
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post #109 of 4651
1/2/07 at 2:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I think you have plenty of time, it's just that you're totally wrong. Show one, just ONE major store that has them in stock (single units, not bundles). Amazon, Circuit City, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, EB...no one has them except in bundle format, and then they only have a few.

It's clear you're nothing but a Wii cheerleader. I'm glad you like it, but it's likely destined to fail. It has a proprietary format and no movie capabilities. The controller is unique but likely won't be adopted by the masses. Just watch.

Edit: Let me add to the chorus of voices saying that this thread is about Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD. It's not about console wars. I only went into that because of the PS3's Blu-Ray capability. The Wii shouldn't even enter the discussion.

yes, clearly i'm a Wii cheerleader, welcome to the argument bud. everyone in here knows i'm pro hd-dvd/360.

i personally find the Wii to be too expensive but it doesn't deny the fact that it has COMPLETELY demolished sony's hype. the wii60 combo is for real, and it could prove too much for sony to handle.

i guess the gazzillion stories online are a big fabricated hoax, yup, ps3's are not available, its all fanboy hyperbole. get real bud, i've seeen ps3's sitting around for days.


also: the box of 360's doesn't mean anything considering microsoft doesn't have a manufacturing problem, ps3's are limited and yet they still sit there. thats a problem.
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post #110 of 4651
1/2/07 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

No one doubted capability of MPEG2, but MPEG2 on 25GB disc was limiting in storage which PQ was sacrified on near 2 hours long movies. Also, many had criticized Sony for using MPEG2 on even 50GB dual layer disc instead of AVC or VC-1, since it bares no benefit of 50GB capacity over VC-1 or AVC on 25/30GB capacity. Anyway, the reviewer is comparing the PQ among BD collections and we all know that it has been sub par on average. There were some BD movies like "Total Recall" originally release as MPEG2 on 25GB BD disc which was released on HD-DVD as VC-1 codec in Europe showing vast PQ improvements over the BD release. This is just one example, but if and when the initial BD releases were to be re-released on AVC or VC-1, it's more likely to see noticeable improvements over the MPEG2 versions.

Eitherway, the winner of the HiDef format would be the format that will deliver the best PQ at the cheapest cost and when the cost is nearing the cost of the SD-DVD. Well, the HDTV booming has started, so there soon be no concern about the added cost of HD display to joining in the new HD experience. Anyway, I'd have to restate that the cost will be the main driving factor for this format war, but the cost has to be $199 - $299 to be an effective hardware entry cost, but not at $399 or $499 even for BD. Most consumers would however compromise on the PQ but would not likely to compromise on the cost, and this is why the cost is the main driver. Hence, the benefit lies on the HD-DVD to win since it will get cheaper faster than the BD. There's a rumor that Toshiba will slash the price tag on the 2nd gen HD-DVD players at the CES and that would be one step closer to becoming a winner.



IMHO, the MPEG2 versus VC-1/AVC has been way overblown, I've seen plenty of 1080i MPEG2 TS (OTAB) that looked quite good. You also have to consider that at 2.35:1 (or 2.40:1) you're only using ~75% of the HDTV's pixels, consider also 3:2 pulldown from 24FPS to 60FPS, and that the VC-1/AVC codecs have the most advantage for low bitrates. I really don't see what all the codec debate is all about.

Also consider that when DVD's first came out (first 2-3 years), that those MPEG2 data streams were often subpar versus later efforts. There is definitely a certain art to codec settings, and undoubtedly some of that art must be relearned in going from SD to HD content.

Finally, IMHO Blu-Ray may have ecomonics of scale on its side, given that each PS3 has a Blu-Ray player included while XBOX 360 does not. So that even if a single PS3 never is used for HD media content, the number of Blu-Ray players (in total) sold may be significantly greater than HD-DVD players sold. Plant fab costs go down, investment costs recouped faster.

I too, am anxious to see what CES has to offer, I'd expect 2G players (and 3G later this year) and lower prices for either HD format.

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post #111 of 4651
1/2/07 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixir View Post

yes, clearly i'm a Wii cheerleader, welcome to the argument bud. everyone in here knows i'm pro hd-dvd/360.

i personally find the Wii to be too expensive but it doesn't deny the fact that it has COMPLETELY demolished sony's hype. the wii60 combo is for real, and it could prove too much for sony to handle.

i guess the gazzillion stories online are a big fabricated hoax, yup, ps3's are not available, its all fanboy hyperbole. get real bud, i've seeen ps3's sitting around for days.


also: the box of 360's doesn't mean anything considering microsoft doesn't have a manufacturing problem, ps3's are limited and yet they still sit there. thats a problem.

You post the most unsubstantiated, ridiculous anecdotal-at-best crap. I'm trying really hard not to call you names here. But there are just so many fitting ones.
You want to know the PS3 stock situation? Look at this link http://ps3finder.com/

Or, look at this link. http://www.ps3preorders.com/ Only Wal-Mart and a few others have some bundles for around $1000.

Except for Wal-Mart and auctions, no one has them. I would like to know WHERE you saw these PS3's "lying around" because frankly, I think you're full of shit.
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post #112 of 4651
1/2/07 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You post the most unsubstantiated, ridiculous anecdotal-at-best crap. I'm trying really hard not to call you names here. But there are just so many fitting ones.
You want to know the PS3 stock situation? Look at this link http://ps3finder.com/

Or, look at this link. http://www.ps3preorders.com/ Only Wal-Mart and a few others have some bundles for around $1000.

Except for Wal-Mart and auctions, no one has them. I would like to know WHERE you saw these PS3's "lying around" because frankly, I think you're full of shit.



I could have sworn that the two PS3's I saw in the local Wal-Mart (Vicksburg, MS) were just the unit itself, not bundled, but what do I know, I never had them scan it at the counter.

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post #113 of 4651
1/2/07 at 6:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post



I could have sworn that the two PS3's I saw in the local Wal-Mart (Vicksburg, MS) were just the unit itself, not bundled, but what do I know, I never had them scan it at the counter.


I don't know...I've not heard of anyone just being able to "find" one. There might be a few units, but nothing in terms of overall stock.
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post #114 of 4651
1/2/07 at 6:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I don't know...I've not heard of anyone just being able to "find" one. There might be a few units, but nothing in terms of overall stock.


i've heard of many, and i've talked to many people, and i've witnesed a few occasions of being in a store the store having a few ps3's just sitting there.

if you check the other blueray/hddvd thread you'll see i didn't believe it either when someone started saying they had ps3's at their local electronics store.
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post #115 of 4651
1/2/07 at 6:26pm
I also saw stacks of them at local BB on last Sunday Morning and that was in LA area, Simi Valley BB to be specific. I'm not sure whether it is still there, but the manager had told me they got about 30 units the night before. I had to convince myself to not go near it. Still not ready to go neutral on the format. Anyway, the PS3 isn't as scarce as the Wii. I've still yet to see one even when I'm looking to buy one.
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post #116 of 4651
1/2/07 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elixir View Post

i've heard of many, and i've talked to many people, and i've witnesed a few occasions of being in a store the store having a few ps3's just sitting there.

if you check the other blueray/hddvd thread you'll see i didn't believe it either when someone started saying they had ps3's at their local electronics store.

If it were so easy to get, there wouldn't be so many long running high-traffic forums dedicated to reporting PS3 stock before it disappears. I find it hard to believe there would be so many people looking for PS3s in such mass, if they were so readily available.

Besides, as I've said in early posts, true or not, the PS3 is outselling the only product relevant to this thread; the HD DVD add-on for the 360 by a margin of five to one. There's no reason to question the success of Blu-ray as it seems to be gaining much ground already.
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post #117 of 4651
1/2/07 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

Well... I'm not sure how closely you've been following the gaming console market, but Wii has been kicking PS3's butt since day one and the demand has gone up even higher. People have to wake up and smell the coffee, because PS3 isn't PS2. A simple reason is that PS2 wasn't selling at $499/$599 tag, and it doesn't matter what HiDef dvd format PS3 can play..... Basically, PS3 is too expensive as a gaming console, but a cheap BD player. What demographics of consumers can this product be matched to? Only those enthusiasts.... and they are numbered and so is PS3 sales.

So I completely prove this invalid and false. I have a PS3. I'm not an enthusiast. I bought the PS3 because:

1. It has an incredible hardware platform with proven performance.
2. It is an OPEN (for a console) system - and yes, I do have Linux installed on my PS3
3. I have had a 1080p HD display since June of 2005
4. I like the idea of Blu-Ray because:
a. Microsoft picked HD-DVD and generally hate Microsoft (even as I type this post on an XP pro laptop)
b. Rewritable drives are available today at prices similar to what I paid for a Yamaha CDR-400t back when CD-R were over $1/each (I'll likely wait before getting one - $300 is an acceptable pricepoint for the technology)
c. There is space to grow content with DL BDROMs
5. $600 is relatively meaningless to me

That said, I might get an Xbox 360 also if I can buy a cable card decoder for my media center PC and MS replaces the internal DVD drive with an internal HD-DVD drive. The 360 would be used primarily as an HD extender.
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post #118 of 4651
1/2/07 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cruisereg View Post

So I completely prove this invalid and false. I have a PS3. I'm not an enthusiast. I bought the PS3 because:

1. It has an incredible hardware platform with proven performance.
2. It is an OPEN (for a console) system - and yes, I do have Linux installed on my PS3
3. I have had a 1080p HD display since June of 2005
4. I like the idea of Blu-Ray because:
a. Microsoft picked HD-DVD and generally hate Microsoft (even as I type this post on an XP pro laptop)
b. Rewritable drives are available today at prices similar to what I paid for a Yamaha CDR-400t back when CD-R were over $1/each (I'll likely wait before getting one - $300 is an acceptable pricepoint for the technology)
c. There is space to grow content with DL BDROMs
5. $600 is relatively meaningless to me

That said, I might get an Xbox 360 also if I can buy a cable card decoder for my media center PC and MS replaces the internal DVD drive with an internal HD-DVD drive. The 360 would be used primarily as an HD extender.

I'm sorry, but if you're running linux on PS3, you obviously aren't a regular J6P, are you?.... you're just a hardware junkie/enthusiast. BTW, how is it running Linux on PS3?... I thought of doing something similar and having xbox360 add on to work along with it as a universal format HT console...... but I hate Sony as much as I hate M$ and I couldn't bare myself supporting both at the same time....lol. BTW, did you try running Windows on it? Few years back, there was a time that I had hoped to have PS3 running MacOS..... well...that was the rumor at time....
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post #119 of 4651
1/2/07 at 6:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cruisereg View Post

So I completely prove this invalid and false. I have a PS3. I'm not an enthusiast. I bought the PS3 because:

1. It has an incredible hardware platform with proven performance.
2. It is an OPEN (for a console) system - and yes, I do have Linux installed on my PS3
3. I have had a 1080p HD display since June of 2005
4. I like the idea of Blu-Ray because:
a. Microsoft picked HD-DVD and generally hate Microsoft (even as I type this post on an XP pro laptop)
b. Rewritable drives are available today at prices similar to what I paid for a Yamaha CDR-400t back when CD-R were over $1/each (I'll likely wait before getting one - $300 is an acceptable pricepoint for the technology)
c. There is space to grow content with DL BDROMs
5. $600 is relatively meaningless to me

That said, I might get an Xbox 360 also if I can buy a cable card decoder for my media center PC and MS replaces the internal DVD drive with an internal HD-DVD drive. The 360 would be used primarily as an HD extender.



Is that YDL 5.0 by any chance. Have you run any code (i. e. complied) or run any benchmarks. Of course, that would be an additional reason for me to get a PS3.

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post #120 of 4651
1/2/07 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst View Post

Besides, as I've said in early posts, true or not, the PS3 is outselling the only product relevant to this thread; the HD DVD add-on for the 360 by a margin of five to one. There's no reason to question the success of Blu-ray as it seems to be gaining much ground already.


But as has been pointed out in other threads, that's a pointless comparison, as clearly far from ever PS3 is being used to play Blu-Ray movies, while clearly every HD DVD 360 add-on is.
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