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New Clovertown chip an option for Apple's 8-core Mac Pro - Page 2

post #41 of 82
12/27/06 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Port Multiplication-[/B] You can fan out drives on a single controller. Thus a 8 port controller could easily support 32 or more drives. Max is 16,384 drives.

What is the limit with SATA? I've seen five-way port multipliers for them. For me, that would be enough, that would allow me to have ten external drives without buying a PCIe card and without going to Firewire.
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post #42 of 82
12/27/06 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

What is the limit with SATA? I've seen five-way port multipliers for them. For me, that would be enough, that would allow me to have ten external drives without buying a PCIe card and without going to Firewire.



There are a bunch of PCI/PCIE SATA cards (internal and/or external) out there from FirmTek, Sonnet, and HighPoint in the $100-$200 price range. Some of these already have port multipliers (Sonnet). I'm not aware of any Mac having external SATA built-in?

If you look into it, eSATA is a no brainer (FirmTek has the only (2-port) PCIE adapter that is bootable on the G5, perhaps the others will have updated firmware sometime in the future, on the Mac Pro I'm not sure, but I think none of the PCIE SATA cards are currently bootable (someone correct me if I'm wrong)).

IMHO, eSATA is the (near term) future of portable/external HD storage (and if bootable from your lappy with a RAID setup, would be way fast).

Bare Feats FirmTek Review

Arizona AMUG FirmTek Review

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post #43 of 82
12/27/06 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post


There are a bunch of PCI/PCIE SATA cards (internal and/or external) out there from FirmTek, Sonnet, and HighPoint in the $100-$200 price range. Some of these already have port multipliers (Sonnet). I'm not aware of any Mac having external SATA built-in?

If you look into it, eSATA is a no brainer (FirmTek has the only (2-port) PCIE adapter that is bootable on the G5, perhaps the others will have updated firmware sometime in the future, on the Mac Pro I'm not sure, but I think none of the PCIE SATA cards are currently bootable (someone correct me if I'm wrong)).

What I had in mind was my Mac Pro's hidden set of two unused SATA ports and an external expansion plate adapter. The bootable issue is a non-issue for those that can do this.
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post #44 of 82
12/27/06 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

What I had in mind was my Mac Pro's hidden set of two unused SATA ports and an external expansion plate adapter. The bootable issue is a non-issue for those that can do this.



Cool, didn't realize the Mac Pro had them! Are they 150 or 300 SATA? eSATA-II with SATA-II drives (perhaps SATA-I also (?)) can get about 240MB/s from a 4-drive RAID setup (see Bare Feats).

I'd like to get a Mac Pro, probably wait for MWSF07 (or later) for an octo, but I've only had my quad G5 for a year now, so I'll probably wait until this time next year.

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post #45 of 82
12/27/06 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent

Are they 150 or 300 SATA?

SATA 300.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

What I had in mind was my Mac Pro's hidden set of two unused SATA ports and an external expansion plate adapter.

Be carefull - these ports do not support dynamic hot plug.
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post #46 of 82
12/28/06 at 6:48am
look on the rigt side!

Scratch it nothing to look at,
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post #47 of 82
12/28/06 at 6:53am
no message
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post #48 of 82
12/28/06 at 7:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smalM View Post

SATA 300.

Be carefull - these ports do not support dynamic hot plug.

Good call. So my choices are, if I want bootability, I use the internal ports but never remove the drives, if I want removability, buy an add-in card but I can't boot. I think those two options might be fine with me. The Mac Pro can already have five internal hard drives without custom brackets, so booting from any of those should be fine for my use. I expect that Firmtek will be able to add bootability to one of their adapters eventually, not that I think I will need it.
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post #49 of 82
12/28/06 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Good call. So my choices are, if I want bootability, I use the internal ports but never remove the drives, if I want removability, buy an add-in card but I can't boot. I think those two options might be fine with me. The Mac Pro can already have five internal hard drives without custom brackets, so booting from any of those should be fine for my use. I expect that Firmtek will be able to add bootability to one of their adapters eventually, not that I think I will need it.

Hi Jeff - I'm buying a MacPro soon. Think I'll continue to use an external fw clone for backup in the meantime, until they sort Intel out on eSata.
Or do what you suggest - use an internal.
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post #50 of 82
12/28/06 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

I would like to see the Mac Pro support both SAS and SATA hard drives like the Xserve.



After doing a little web digging around today, I can see where SAS is actually a superset which includes SAS and SATA-II drives. Currently ATTO is the only 3rd party vendor that has a PCIE SAS host adapter ($1,100 MSRP (Ouch!)), announced 10/31/06 (but I don't know if it's shipping yet). It would be sweet if an updated Mac Pro offered SAS. With the current 4 (Or is it 5) HD bay Mac Pro, this would allow for both ES and PS.

On another note, MTBF (or AFR) links WRT SAS/SCSI versus SATA;

Seagate White Paper (PDF)

The reference paper to Figure 9 above,

Estimating Drive Reliability in Desktop Computers Consumer Electronics Systems (HTML)

A paper to be presented at the USENIX FAST07 conference (February 14-16, 2007),

Disk failures in the real world: What does an MTTF of 1,000,000 hours mean to you? (PDF)

And finally two links from wikipedia with background on probability distributions (PDF (no, not the Adobe PDF)/CDF stuff), the first link is to the commonly assumed exponential distribution used in the HD industry),

Exponential Distribution

Probability Distributions

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post #51 of 82
12/28/06 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post



After doing a little web digging around today, I can see where SAS is actually a superset which includes SAS and SATA-II drives. Currently ATTO is the only 3rd party vendor that has a PCIE SAS host adapter ($1,100 MSRP (Ouch!)), announced 10/31/06 (but I don't know if it's shipping yet). It would be sweet if an updated Mac Pro offered SAS. With the current 4 (Or is it 5) HD bay Mac Pro, this would allow for both ES and PS.

Isn't the Raptor pretty much an ES drive? It seems to be in between the two classes.

Mac Pro has four SATA bays, but the bay below the optical drive also works for one PATA, or another SATA if you are willing to snake a cable around.
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post #52 of 82
12/28/06 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Isn't the Raptor pretty much an ES drive? It seems to be in between the two classes.

Mac Pro has four SATA bays, but the bay below the optical drive also works for one PATA, or another SATA if you are willing to snake a cable around.



I guess I hit the jackpot, 1,200,000 hours MTBF at 100% duty cycle, so yes you are correct, and Western Digital claims ES level in their specifications (5 year limited warranty, 16MB cache, 10K RPM, and NCQ to boot);

WD Raptor

I recently got two of these, sweet!

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post #53 of 82
12/28/06 at 5:01pm
So when does everyone think we're gonna see 8-core Pros? Would MWSF be too early for Apple to have them in shipping quantity?

I'm curious to see if the price/performance difference will get better with 4 and 8-core systems as options in the Mac Pro. I don't really need 8-cores for what I do but I'll gladly take one if the shift to more cores continues at the same basic price point.

Some Apple resellers have deals at the moment and a Mac Pro 2.66ghz 2gb(4x512mb)/250gb/superdrive/x1900 can be had at a reasonable cost. If the new machines will be here this spring though, I can wait it out and get Leopard included with it. Tax return should be helpful too.

Just anxious to put my 1ghz Tibook out to pasture and connect my new Dell 2407FP up to something truly worthy.
2.66ghz Mac Pro - 5gb / 830gb / 7300gt 256mb
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post #54 of 82
1/3/07 at 4:45am
Quote:
http://creativebits.org/8_core_mac_pro

Well, depends on what you're doing...

For 3D, post production video effects and now with the above link it kind of looks like PShop has been M-cored. If you could get that kind of performance most of the time? You'd take it over the 3 gig quad model.

Best to wait until Leopard arrives. By the time the .1 patch on that ships, cpus will be close from Intel (probably...) that will put the quad and octo in their place.

However, if m-core programming is on the rise then a quad and octo will serve you well for a good few years. But we've only just got into the m-core thing. It's like hitting a moving target!

Octo cores will probably arrive some time in January.

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post #55 of 82
1/3/07 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

Octo cores will probably arrive some time in January.

Isn't Intel doing the same agressive pricing with these chips as it did with the CD => C2D. You get the faster, newer, better chop for the same price, which pretty much gaurantees a fast upgrade? Though, I recall Apple being one of the last OEMs to adopt the C2D. Perhaps the Pro machine dynamics will be different.
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post #56 of 82
1/3/07 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Isn't Intel doing the same agressive pricing with these chips as it did with the CD => C2D. You get the faster, newer, better chop for the same price, which pretty much gaurantees a fast upgrade? Though, I recall Apple being one of the last OEMs to adopt the C2D. Perhaps the Pro machine dynamics will be different.

It just seemed like apple was the last to adopt because they went straight for Merom. Merom shipped well after Conroe. Apple was within a week of Merom's release with the iMacs being bumped.

 

 

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post #57 of 82
1/3/07 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

It just seemed like apple was the last to adopt because they went straight for Merom. Merom shipped well after Conroe. Apple was within a week of Merom's release with the iMacs being bumped.

There is more to it than that. That was just the iMacs, they took an extra month to update the pros, and yet another month to update the consumer units.
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post #58 of 82
1/3/07 at 10:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

But that was just the iMacs, they took an extra month to update the pros, and yet another month to update the consumer units.

Yah the MBP's i'm a little curious about (perhaps because they are not a drop in replacement and they need to be soldered in). But the MacPros, at the time woodcrest was very very limited. Perhaps apple is tired of their old song and dance they had with IBM / Motorola of announcing products and them not shipping for 3 months after. But then again... look at XServe :-/

 

 

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post #59 of 82
1/3/07 at 2:56pm
Bah.

We can hardly compare the PPC lag times with the Intel ones.

Post PPC, Apple is a transformed company.

Shipping times most often immediately or a few weeks.

And get this, regular cpu updates!

We'd have been waiting some time for Dual core on PPC and getting that into the laptop line?

Tsssssssssss. Don't go there. Too hot.

If Apple keeps the 3 gig quad and have it as the mid range model, I may take that instead if it's priced much cheaper than the octo model.

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post #60 of 82
1/5/07 at 2:55pm
From today's rumor mill:

http://www.informationweek.com/news/...leID=196801549
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post #61 of 82
1/5/07 at 3:26pm
It seams the transfer speeds are very adequate. My only wish is for apple to offer 10k and 15k RPM drives for their flagship. I know they are less reliable but they sure offer some awesome performance. I noticed the XServe has them.
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post #62 of 82
1/5/07 at 3:37pm
Except Bob LeVita is mistaking on the prices of 4k-5k for a octo Mac Pro....

http://news.softpedia.com/news/INTEL...ts-42683.shtml

http://www.hkepc.com/bbs/itnews.php?...me=0&endtime=0

The quads will take over the dual's prices and the duals will drop in price.

 

 

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post #63 of 82
1/5/07 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTO View Post

It seams the transfer speeds are very adequate. My only wish is for apple to offer 10k and 15k RPM drives for their flagship. I know they are less reliable but they sure offer some awesome performance. I noticed the XServe has them.

The 10 and 15k drives are not less reliable, they are actually more reliable in general. I think Franksargeant is the one that dug up a paper that explains the differences between the server drives and the desktop drives. Someone mentioned that typical desktop drives are rated assuming 40hr/week operation, the enterprise drives are rated for non-stop operation. The Raptors do work with Mac Pro, but to get anything faster, you need SAS or SCSI. SAS for Mac Pro is a pretty hard sell.
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post #64 of 82
1/5/07 at 6:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

The quads will take over the dual's prices and the duals will drop in price.

I don't think this is possible. The Mac Pro is already pretty much the cheapest Woodcrest system on the market, and I have not read anything about Woodcrest price drops. A slow Clovertown is about the same price as a 3.0 GHz Woodcrest, so those configurations could be the same price; a fast OctoMac seems like it would certainly cost more than the fastest current Mac Pro.
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post #65 of 82
1/5/07 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmf View Post

I don't think this is possible. The Mac Pro is already pretty much the cheapest Woodcrest system on the market, and I have not read anything about Woodcrest price drops. A slow Clovertown is about the same price as a 3.0 GHz Woodcrest, so those configurations could be the same price; a fast OctoMac seems like it would certainly cost more than the fastest current Mac Pro.

Intel is being very aggressive with it's pricing. As I recall, the 4-core chips will cost the same as the 2-core chips. If you recall, Intel did the same thing with CD to C2D. They offered the C2D with a .13GHz speed increase over the CD for the same price.
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post #66 of 82
1/5/07 at 8:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Intel is being very aggressive with it's pricing. As I recall, the 4-core chips will cost the same as the 2-core chips. If you recall, Intel did the same thing with CD to C2D. They offered the C2D with a .13GHz speed increase over the CD for the same price.

Read the thread from the beginning - pricing was announced by the first poster, and the quad core chips are the same price as the dual core at the next higher clock speed. From earlier, my estimates based on new and old chip pricing:

o Two 2.0 GHz dual core [subtract $299]
o Two 2.66 GHz dual core
o Two 2.0 GHz quad core
o Two 3.0 GHz dual core [add $799]
o Two 2.33 GHz quad core [add $799]
o Two 2.66 GHz quad core [add $1999]
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post #67 of 82
1/6/07 at 5:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Read the thread from the beginning - pricing was announced by the first poster, and the quad core chips are the same price as the dual core at the next higher clock speed. From earlier, my estimates based on new and old chip pricing:

o Two 2.0 GHz dual core [subtract $299]
o Two 2.66 GHz dual core
o Two 2.0 GHz quad core
o Two 3.0 GHz dual core [add $799]
o Two 2.33 GHz quad core [add $799]
o Two 2.66 GHz quad core [add $1999]

I would expect that there be only three options, at most, maybe four. Apple has only offered three or four speed options for the towers that I remember. That said. I've only been watching Apple from the time of the original G5.
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post #68 of 82
1/6/07 at 6:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I would expect that there be only three options, at most, maybe four. Apple has only offered three or four speed options for the towers that I remember. That said. I've only been watching Apple from the time of the original G5.

I agree - Apple will only offer about four of the above, but I have no way of guessing which ones. Any removal would be missed by somebody.
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post #69 of 82
1/6/07 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I would expect that there be only three options, at most, maybe four. Apple has only offered three or four speed options for the towers that I remember. That said. I've only been watching Apple from the time of the original G5.

This may be true, but they could also list the Mac Pro with multiple base configurations, like with the Mac Mini, White MacBook and 17" iMac.


Apple has some possible options:

1) It could offer 2 base configurations for the Mac Pro. One being a Mac Pro Quad and the other a Mac Pro Octo (as listed below). This only works if Apple foresees consistent increases of multiple cores.

MAC PRO QUAD (Woodcrest):
- Two 2.00GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon ($316x2) [Mac Pro for $2200]
- Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon ($690x2) [Mac Pro for $2499]
- Two 3.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon ($851x2) [Mac Pro for $3298]


MAC PRO OCTO (Clovertown):
- Two 1.86GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon ($690x2) [Mac Pro for $2499]
- Two 2.33GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon ($851x2) [Mac Pro for $3298]
- Two 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon ($1172x2) [Mac Pro for $3998]


2) Apple could remove the Dual Core Woodcrests from the lineup. This decision depends mainly on how well the 2.33GHz Mac Pro (Woodcrest) is currently selling. If the low end Mac Pro isn't selling well, compared to the 2.66 and 3.0GHz offerings, then Apple may just pull the Woodcrest altogether in favor of Clovertown. This way, Apple could still advertise 8-cores with a better performance, all while maintaining the same initial,

pre-configuration price point for the Mac Pro.


3) If the 2.33GHz Mac Pro (Woodcrest) is a top seller of the three, then Apple may keep it in the lineup at the current price point while replacing the other two Woodcrest offerings with the Clovertown equivalent of the same price (as seen below).

MAC PRO:
- Two 2.00GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon ($316x2) [Mac Pro for $2200]
- Two 1.86GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon ($690x2) [Mac Pro for $2499]
- Two 2.33GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon ($851x2) [Mac Pro for $3298]
- Two 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon ($1172x2) [Mac Pro for $3998]


PS: Pricing from Anandtech.
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post #70 of 82
1/6/07 at 8:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

- Two 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon ($1172x2) [Mac Pro for $3998

I think that your price on the top model is a little light (by $500 or so), because you didn't add in any margin for Apple on the processors - look at the old pricing, each successive model is more costly than the previous (and this price difference is more than the difference between the processor costs).

With your pricing, Apple would make more money on the low end models than the high end (the dollar value margin would be the same, percentage margin would be lower, but Apple would be carrying more inventory value so the total profit would be less).
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post #71 of 82
1/6/07 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I think that your price on the top model is a little light (by $500 or so), because you didn't add in any margin for Apple on the processors - look at the old pricing, each successive model is more costly than the previous (and this price difference is more than the difference between the processor costs).

With your pricing, Apple would make more money on the low end models than the high end (the dollar value margin would be the same, percentage margin would be lower, but Apple would be carrying more inventory value so the total profit would be less).

I thought about that, but decided to keep it low for two reasons:
1) Wishful thinking
2) Would anyone even notice?
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post #72 of 82
1/6/07 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

...snip.....


2) Apple could remove the Dual Core Woodcrests from the lineup. This decision depends mainly on how well the 2.33GHz Mac Pro (Woodcrest) is currently selling. ..snip..]


Don't you mean: 2.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon, not 2.33GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon?
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post #73 of 82
1/6/07 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royboy View Post

Don't you mean: 2.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon, not 2.33GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon?

Yes I do. Thanks.

note: Original post edited to reflect corrections.
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post #74 of 82
1/6/07 at 10:12am


Well I've been doing some real space tripping over at Deoxy after googling "eight brains" after starting to look for an image of an octopus for this thread.

I mean if Apple does introduce an 8-core Mac Pro model, will it be branded OctoPro, OctoMac, or just a new Mac Pro model (no unique name)?

I don't know, but Mac Pro Octave has a certain ring to it!

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post #75 of 82
1/6/07 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I mean if Apple does introduce an 8-core Mac Pro model, will it be branded OctoPro, OctoMac, or just a new Mac Pro model (no unique name)?

It will probably be referred to as a Mac Pro Octo--as opposed to a Mac Pro Quad--but the machine name will certainly remain Mac Pro.
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post #76 of 82
1/6/07 at 10:54am
Mac Pro 8
Octo sounds kinda lame.
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post #77 of 82
1/6/07 at 12:35pm


Mac Pro Octane
Mac Pro Octüber

Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #78 of 82
1/6/07 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by halo1982 View Post

Mac Pro 8
Octo sounds kinda lame.

Why is that? Octo sounds pretty natural to me. After all, it does mean 8 and comes in order: quad, penta, hex, sept, oct*.


But what do we call the 16 core chips? Hextane** or Hexten?

*Yes, we root of those month names are Greek, but originally the calendar year started in March. That is why February has the shortest days and get the leap year day. I'm glad I don't have to wait until the 2nd Tuesday in March for MWSF.
** Taken from the word "Octane" which refers to the 18 hydrocarbon isomers.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #79 of 82
4/4/07 at 7:26am
  • e1618978
  • will burn in the Fiery Pit of Hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

At launch, the prices were:

3GHz $850, 2.66 GHz $700, 2.33GHz $470, 2.0GHz $330, 1.83GHz $270 and 1.6GHz $230.

http://www.theinquirer.org/default.aspx?article=29510

So I imagine that the new processor lineup will be like this:

o Two 2.0 GHz dual core [subtract $299]
o Two 2.66 GHz dual core
o Two 2.0 GHz quad core
o Two 3.0 GHz dual core [add $799]
o Two 2.33 GHz quad core [add $799]
o Two 2.66 GHz quad core [add $1999] (i.e. just low enough to make it not worth while to buy the 2.0GHz and swap processors)

Apple's prices are significantly less than I expected - they must be getting the processors for much less than the originally quoted Appleinsider price of $1172 for the 2.66GHz variant.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #80 of 82
4/4/07 at 9:22am
We've been waiting since november and all that showed up was a new super high end option with two 3ghz quad core chips. No 2.0, 2.33, or 2.66ghz quad core options. Nothing else updated.
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