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Saddam To Be Hanged in 48 Hours. - Page 3

post #81 of 93
12/30/06 at 1:59am
Well, if they've proven irresponsible with other decisions that they've made then it seems fair to take away those rights.

Just like they take away your driver's license for making poor decisions on the road.
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post #82 of 93
12/30/06 at 2:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Again, I'm no fan of the death penalty, but by that same logic couldn't you say that any penalty for a breach of the law is "revenge" of some sort?

Arguably, yes.

However, most penalties, unlike the death penalty, are for the most part undoable.
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post #83 of 93
12/30/06 at 2:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

So a lifetime of torture is better than killing?

No, if a prison amounts to torture, that prison is flawed.
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post #84 of 93
12/30/06 at 2:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Wait. So you're saying we can take away their right to be in society. We can take away their freedom of movement. We can take away when they sleep and wake and eat and shower and shit and piss. We can take away their ability to be in society. We can take away their ability to even be within the society of people who are taken away from society.

But now we let them choose?

No.

I'm rebutting your point that execution is preferable to (what you characterized life imprisonment as) a "lifetime of torture." It must suck for inmates either way, but I think most would choose to live. Am I wrong here? Are they really begging or praying to die?
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post #85 of 93
12/30/06 at 2:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^ View Post

Well, if they've proven irresponsible with other decisions that they've made then it seems fair to take away those rights.

Just like they take away your driver's license for making poor decisions on the road.

A driver's license is not a right or a freedom. When we imprison, we take away rights and freedoms.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #86 of 93
12/30/06 at 2:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker View Post

No, if a prison amounts to torture, that prison is flawed.

Oh, prison is flawed. Horribly.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #87 of 93
12/30/06 at 2:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Oh, prison is flawed. Horribly.

Yes, no doubt. But that doesn't mean death penalty is suddenly the better choice.

Prison gives (or should give) people another chance. Death penalty is saying they'll never amount to anything.
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post #88 of 93
12/30/06 at 2:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

No.

I'm rebutting your point that execution is preferable to (what you characterized life imprisonment as) a "lifetime of torture." It must suck for inmates either way, but I think most would choose to live. Am I wrong here? Are they really begging or praying to die?

I didn't say execution is preferable to anything. I implied that it is silly to draw distinctions between imprisonment and torture and then to argue that we ought to allow people who we contend have lost the ability to choose even the most basic functions of their lives whether they think they ought to be put to death. This is about the state and social contracts, not what some mass murderer thinks he or she deserves.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #89 of 93
12/30/06 at 2:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

A driver's license is not a right or a freedom. When we imprison, we take away rights and freedoms.

I'd honestly rather not get into semantics.

Yes, a drivers license is a privilege. But if it's a privilege everyone enjoys and can only be withheld by wrongdoing on your part than it might as well be a right.
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post #90 of 93
12/30/06 at 2:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker View Post

Yes, no doubt. But that doesn't mean death penalty is suddenly the better choice.

Prison gives (or should give) people another chance. Death penalty is saying they'll never amount to anything.

[rumsfeld]Well, you go to the gallows with the prison system you have, not the one you wish you had[/rumsfeld]

As an aside: your argument that the prison should be reformative is a relatively new idea, and one of the hallmarks of "our" (i.e. the Western) system is that it doesn't know whether it wants to be punitive or reformative.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #91 of 93
12/30/06 at 2:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^ View Post

I'd honestly rather not get into semantics.

Yes, a drivers license is a privilege. But if it's a privilege everyone enjoys and can only be withheld by wrongdoing on your part than it might as well be a right.

This is most definitely not semantics. If anything, it's my attempt to yank this discussion away from argument by analogy. It is NOT a privilege everyone enjoys. Choosing when and where you take a piss is. Choosing what you eat is. Choosing where you sleep is.

In short, I'd rather discuss the issue and not what the issue is similar to.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #92 of 93
12/30/06 at 2:55am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
So you can't go to the prison library and choose which book to read? You can't choose to lift weights or play basketball? If you are going to present prison as an entirely choiceless world, you really should have your facts straight first.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #93 of 93
12/30/06 at 9:09am
Prisons don't necessarily give people another chance. Many people are in for live with no chance of parole on multiple counts.

One point of prison vs. the death penalty is that its not as miserable being dead. Think of how someone like Saddam would have to live with himself sitting in a cell for the rest of his life, thinking about everything wrong he has ever done.
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