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post #81 of 124
I think this impeachment business is vindictive -- and nothing else -- except for maybe broadcasting:

"Hey! no matter how badly Iraq ends up, no matter much worse the ME is for it, we're going to get our political Jollies" (and I don't mean a big-lipped philanderette, trysexual, actress)

This entire Iraq business, from the start, has been used for political gain, no matter what the cost. If the Left had any decency they'd have gone to W and said "hey, you've got X months to get things fixed, we'll keep our mouths shut and let you do your job, but after that it's open season."

But no, it's been pissing and moaning -- for nothing more but show. Ridiculous. I've said this for years, don't argue in front of the kids. If the left isn't powerful enough to take out dubbubububububua, then shut the hell up and let him dig his hole.

If you disagree with invasion, then preach containment. Something more than 'Bush lied,' 'Michael Moore said...' Propose another way, something other than whining the Jihadis and emerging screwball ideologies to death.

But then, when Bush has to refer to all of this as the "War on terror" maybe no one is listening that can find Iraq on a map.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #82 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I think this impeachment business is vindictive

One of the things that irritates me the most about politics is how people will abandon reason in favor of emotion, caution in favor of loyalty, and honesty in favor of saving face.

Frickin annoying as hell, and firmly prevents anything constructive from being accomplished.

Or so it seems to me.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #83 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn View Post

One of the things that irritates me the most about politics is how people will abandon reason in favor of emotion, caution in favor of loyalty, and honesty in favor of saving face.

Frickin annoying as hell, and firmly prevents anything constructive from being accomplished.

Or so it seems to me.

I don't think it's ever been any different. Even with something as serious as the American Civil War, there were plenty of people willing to chisle/connive/resort to infighting.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #84 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I don't think it's ever been any different. Even with something as serious as the American Civil War, there were plenty of people willing to chisle/connive/resort to infighting.

"Come see the violence inherent in the system!!" - Monty Python
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #85 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

What you're saying is that Bush delibrately committed a crime. That's patently absurd.

I'm assuming, then, that you haven't heard of the Downing Street Memo.

Lying to Congress is certainly grounds for impeachment, especially about critical information that led them to okay a $350 trillion war.
post #86 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

I'm assuming, then, that you haven't heard of the Downing Street Memo.

I live under a rock, not having a TV or cable of any kind, but I would have expected to have heard about this before now. That this is the first i've heard of it is even more disturbing in my mind than the memo's supposed contents.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #87 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I think this impeachment business is vindictive -- and nothing else -- except for maybe broadcasting:

"Hey! no matter how badly Iraq ends up, no matter much worse the ME is for it, we're going to get our political Jollies" (and I don't mean a big-lipped philanderette, trysexual, actress)

This entire Iraq business, from the start, has been used for political gain, no matter what the cost. If the Left had any decency they'd have gone to W and said "hey, you've got X months to get things fixed, we'll keep our mouths shut and let you do your job, but after that it's open season."

Horseshit.

The war was planned and executed with incompetence, and people should be held to account. I'm sorry that they're the ones on 'your side'. They should be held to account.

Likewise, the war was instigated on controversial grounds. We are entitled to question those grounds. It was controversial at the time, and many of us protested it at the time. We were entitled to.

I'm sorry that 'your guys' were the ones who fucked up. I hope someone is held accountable. I'm not sorry if this hurts your feelings.
post #88 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

Horseshit.

The war was planned and executed with incompetence, and people should be held to account. I'm sorry that they're the ones on 'your side'. They should be held to account.

Likewise, the war was instigated on controversial grounds. We are entitled to question those grounds. It was controversial at the time, and many of us protested it at the time. We were entitled to.

I'm sorry that 'your guys' were the ones who fucked up. I hope someone is held accountable. I'm not sorry if this hurts your feelings.


Amen to that!

I'm a big beilever in karma. What you do always has a way of coming back and biting you in the ass. The war advocates had plenty of time to listen before the war and did they?

Tables always eventually turn and here we are.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #89 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

Horseshit.

The war was planned and executed with incompetence, and people should be held to account. I'm sorry that they're the ones on 'your side'. They should be held to account.

Likewise, the war was instigated on controversial grounds. We are entitled to question those grounds. It was controversial at the time, and many of us protested it at the time. We were entitled to.

I'm sorry that 'your guys' were the ones who fucked up. I hope someone is held accountable. I'm not sorry if this hurts your feelings.

No, not arguing in front of the kids is not "horseshit."

The left needs to "either shit or get off the pot." In practice, all they have done is add to the ineffectiveness of what the administration is doing. And the left have managed to do it preaching zero ideas of their own on how to deal with emerging threats, as Jihadi ideology finds its feet. Great, they managed to make things even worse -- but that's not an alternative.

As for 'questioning' -- question all you want -- but impeachment? It's not sane, and it's not constructive. Believing a decade of intrenched/invested intelligence bureaucracy is not a crime. Certainly not for someone who can 'look into' Vladimir Putin's soul, when there actually wasn't one to 'look into.'

But like I said earlier, when no one in any government, any where is willing to break those issues down intelligently -- separating Jihadi ideology from 'the muzzzlims', or something as simple as pointing to the wizard behind Ahmadinejad's curtain, or accepting that religion may actually be playing a part in not securing Iraq -- maybe the 'two sides' deserve each other.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #90 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

No, not arguing in front of the kids is not "horseshit."

The left needs to "either shit or get off the pot." In practice, all they have done is add to the ineffectiveness of what the administration is doing. And the left have managed to do it with zero ideas of their own on how to deal with emerging threats, as Jihadi ideology finds its feet. Great, they managed to make things even worse -- but that's not an alternative.

We live in democracies. The actions of our elected leaders demand scrutiny. When the actions of our elected leaders cause the deaths of thousands of our citizens for highly controversial reasons, they demand scrutiny all the more. Those leaders have to be held accountable, they have to be made to listen.

If we're not allowed to object to, and publicly discuss, the actions of our elected leaders, even with anger and force, we've lost the war. We're living in a society that's compromised the very principles we're supposed to be sending our kids to die defending.

So fuck that.

You seek to share the blame for the disaster that is this war on the people who object to it and who objected to it from the beginning. No. I vocally tried to stop it, and my government didn't listen.

George Bush has been presented with alternative policy choices by a non-partisan inquiry and he's decided to ignore them. It's not up to 'the left' to think up other alternatives.
post #91 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn View Post

Why is Iraq a stick of butter?

That's not butter. That's "I can't believe it's not butter" butter.

Sad isn't it? Look at the casualty number above that coffin.

Also, I don't know whether that impeachment statement ever went anywhere, but it is the most detailed and comprehensive one I've come across.

And as for the Downing Street Memo, here's a great place to start learning more about it.
post #92 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

We live in democracies. The actions of our elected leaders demand scrutiny. When the actions of our elected leaders cause the deaths of thousands of our citizens for highly controversial reasons, they demand scrutiny all the more. Those leaders have to be held accountable, they have to be made to listen.

If we're not allowed to object to, and publicly discuss, the actions of our elected leaders, even with anger and force, we've lost the war. We're living in a society that's compromised the very principles we're supposed to be sending our kids to die defending.

So fuck that.

You seek to share the blame for the disaster that is this war on the people who object to it and who objected to it from the beginning. No. I vocally tried to stop it, and my government didn't listen.

George Bush has been presented with alternative policy choices by a non-partisan inquiry and he's decided to ignore them. It's not up to 'the left' to think up other alternatives.

Hassan i Sabbah, I think 'scrutiny' is what happens when you involve people who haven't the foggiest idea what to do.

The ISG compounds my point, except that instead of foot dragging and whining, it came in the form of platitudes that just begged the question. 'If we could just get Iran to be nice, we could get Iran to cooperate.'

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #93 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Hassan i Sabbah, I think 'scrutiny' is what happens when you involve people who haven't the foggiest idea what to do.

I can't really respond to this because I don't understand it.

I will say that our elected representatives have been elected in order to represent us, and I'm entitled to shout at the top of my voice about this clusterfuck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

The ISG compounds my point, except that instead of foot dragging and whining, it came in the form of platitudes that just begged the question. 'If we could just get Iran to be nice, we could get Iran to cooperate.'

You demanded someone suggest alternatives to the military strategies of the current administration. You already have them and all you can do is denigrate them, even though they come from a non-partisan source.
post #94 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

I can't really respond to this because I don't understand it.

I will say that our elected representatives have been elected in order to represent us, and I'm entitled to shout at the top of my voice about this clusterfuck.


You demanded someone suggest alternatives to the military strategies of the current administration. You already have them and all you can do is denigrate them, even though they come from a non-partisan source.

Mmmmm, somewhat, but I think it's a legitimate gripe that the ISG came back and simply proposed doing things that were truisms -- that implicitly require Iraq to gain nukes, in order for them to work, And no, no matter how many different ways you ask dad to give the car keys to the 11-year-old, he's still going to say 'no.'

Iraq is essentially going to have to bought, in blood, from Iran and no one wants to hear it. The failure is Bush's and he'll have to eat it, but the problem is systemic -- from bad intel, to a dismissive attitudes of religion as it bears on the ME, to thinking that waving Maslow's hierarchy of needs in Baghdad will solve our problems, and will democracy into existence.

I think the rest is sound and fury, and preparing for 2008; Alcibiades would be proud. Maybe Sicily is closer than we thought.

Must work. Bye.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #95 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

No, not arguing in front of the kids is not "horseshit."

That would, I think, be a very mature and responsible way of handling the situation. The only thing that it requires is sufficient unity amongst the Democrats to effect it. Obstructing it is one of the most deeply rooted principles of Democrat ideology that I've ever observed: Tolerance of dissent and a hesitation to tout unity as the prime virtue of the group. Hence, Dems seem to me to tend to have much broader... um... damn. whatever the word meaning 'ideas' that would be appropriate in this context is.

On the other hand, it is, I think, bad for the citizens of the us for our rulers, who are supposed to represent us, to avoid the public forum. It's good to voice all ideas (yes, all, left, right, center, upside down, and hyper-dimensional).


Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman

Sad isn't it? Look at the casualty number above that coffin.

Ok, here's an insight from an OIF vet: The number of DEAD absolutely pales in comparison to the number who have been wounded or maimed. Technically, we refer to any injury (including death) which removes a soldier from immediate duty. This can range from a guy who got a back injury when the truck he was riding in rolled over on him and had to stay the night in the hospital, to the guy who got crushed to death by the same truck. If I recall correctly (there's a good chance I don't, so someone look this up) back in the Fall of '04, when the number dead was around 800 (I think), the best estimates of soldiers medically evacuated from Iraq (and maybe Afghanistan too) was around 6,000. Also, isn't that number on the butter low? I thought it had gone over 2,000 already....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah

...and I'm entitled to shout at the top of my voice about this clusterfuck.

Heh, clusterfuck. I love that word. I've rarely found shouting to be an effective method of convincing people of anything though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Iraq is essentially going to have to bought, in blood, from Iran and no one wants to hear it. The failure is Bush's and he'll have to eat it, but the problem is systemic -- from bad intel, to a dismissive attitudes of religion as it bears on the ME, to thinking that waving Maslow's hierarchy of needs in Baghdad will solve our problems, and will democracy into existence.

I've heard it said, and it seems accurate when I think about it, that no country has ever, or will ever, establish a stable and just government through of the involvement of other nations, and that action by the citizens of that country, usually in the form of a civil war, is necessary to effect the change.

I suspect that eventually the majority of Iraqis, who are suffering the brunt of the violence, will have to stand up as a group and take control of the extremist groups who are causing all the chaos. And I bet that they will do it largely without outside help. They need to take responsibility for their own security, and take action against the common enemy. A People United against a common foe is a force of incredible power.

The day will come, I think, when the Iraqis will see small groups of insurgents preparing to attack, and they will pull out their own weapons and attack those who would do murder.

The leader of such a united movement, I expect, will be a religious one, rather than a political one.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #96 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn View Post

That would, I think, be a very mature and responsible way of handling the situation. The only thing that it requires is sufficient unity amongst the Democrats to effect it. Obstructing it is one of the most deeply rooted principles of Democrat ideology that I've ever observed: Tolerance of dissent and a hesitation to tout unity as the prime virtue of the group. Hence, Dems seem to me to tend to have much broader... um... damn. whatever the word meaning 'ideas' that would be appropriate in this context is.

On the other hand, it is, I think, bad for the citizens of the us for our rulers, who are supposed to represent us, to avoid the public forum. It's good to voice all ideas (yes, all, left, right, center, upside down, and hyper-dimensional).




Ok, here's an insight from an OIF vet: The number of DEAD absolutely pales in comparison to the number who have been wounded or maimed. Technically, we refer to any injury (including death) which removes a soldier from immediate duty. This can range from a guy who got a back injury when the truck he was riding in rolled over on him and had to stay the night in the hospital, to the guy who got crushed to death by the same truck. If I recall correctly (there's a good chance I don't, so someone look this up) back in the Fall of '04, when the number dead was around 800 (I think), the best estimates of soldiers medically evacuated from Iraq (and maybe Afghanistan too) was around 6,000. Also, isn't that number on the butter low? I thought it had gone over 2,000 already....



Heh, clusterfuck. I love that word. I've rarely found shouting to be an effective method of convincing people of anything though.



I've heard it said, and it seems accurate when I think about it, that no country has ever, or will ever, establish a stable and just government through of the involvement of other nations, and that action by the citizens of that country, usually in the form of a civil war, is necessary to effect the change.

I suspect that eventually the majority of Iraqis, who are suffering the brunt of the violence, will have to stand up as a group and take control of the extremist groups who are causing all the chaos. And I bet that they will do it largely without outside help. They need to take responsibility for their own security, and take action against the common enemy. A People United against a common foe is a force of incredible power.

The day will come, I think, when the Iraqis will see small groups of insurgents preparing to attack, and they will pull out their own weapons and attack those who would do murder.

The leader of such a united movement, I expect, will be a religious one, rather than a political one.

I agree there, it will have to be in terms of their culture, and that means a Muslim approach. It just seems that getting the rank and file to stand up is being hampered by something -- somwhere between Islam's fatalism, and the ease that traditional Islamic defensive warfare can be invoked.

...and the historical bad East/West blood that goes all the way back to the Byzantine empire....and the fact that most people in the ME have a strong sense of culture, and real sense/memory of history, two things that nearly no American can relate to.

This could be really bad.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #97 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I agree there, it will have to be in terms of their culture, and that means a Muslim approach. It just seems that getting the rank and file to stand up is being hampered by something -- somwhere between Islam's fatalism, and the ease that traditional Islamic defensive warfare can be invoked.

...and the historical bad East/West blood that goes all the way back to the Byzantine empire....and the fact that most people in the ME have a strong sense of culture, and real sense/memory of history, two things that nearly no American can relate to.

This could be really bad.

meh... I'm not sure that there's any materially different amount of warfare and the death that comes with it at this point in time than there has been at any other time in history (aside from relatively short periods of regional peace). Overall, it seems like we're doing quite well at continuing the trend of mankind. Someone who has actually studied history would be interesting to hear from on this point.

On sense of culture: I frequently refer to myself as, "The ultimate American Mutt." My family supposedly has Irish, English Scottish, etc, etc, blood. Even a French Viking I'm told. We have effectively no family traditions, and no easily identifiable cultural heritage, aside from that of all of middle-class America. In a way, I am Pure American, in that I have no other cultural identity. Left to myself, I am inclined to think that that would be a bad thing, due to being exposed to only one perspective. However/fortunately, I've always had an interest in the rest of the world, and have had the opportunity/been forced to see a small chunk of it. Two years in South Korea, and a year in the middle east have reinforced my sense that we should always question stereotypes and should always guard against making assumptions about how others live and think.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #98 of 124
Thread Starter 
Null.
Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
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Þ & þ are called "Thorn" & þey represent þe sound you've associated "th" wiþ since þe 13þ or 14þ century. I'm bringing it back.
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post #99 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis View Post

I never really saw the point in trying to figure out my heritage. I'm told my family is essentially from Northern Europe. I don't even bother to refer to myself as American though, Human is good enough. 8)

Sebastian

Seconded.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #100 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn View Post

You know, I had given you the benefit of the doubt that you were just insulting people because you were aggravated by this discussion. I'm now beginning to suspect that you are simply a horribly rude and offensive person for whom the value of their intellect is depreciated by their personality. You are acting shamefully and you dishonor yourself and those you defend. You are doing much harm by reinforcing the "Insulting, irrational, and arrogant Republican" stereotype.

You are making a mockery of yourself and the Republican party, and you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. Your behavior is deplorably immature.

In other words, you are being a total asshole.

Unfuck yourself and come back to the discussion when you are ready to act intelligently and actually present arguments and evidence which will help to sway others to your position, rather than acting like fucking child.

First of all, don't ever tell me who I am or presume you have the moral authority to make judgements about me. Second, you clearly don't get the joke with regard to McKinney. Having some knowledge of fairly recent news and sense of humor would help you immensely. Finally, you obviously haven't been around here too long. Nothing I've said even begins to approach what others have said in these forums over the past 7 years. Calling an idea stupid is not tantamount to calling a person stupid. In any case, I certainly don't need to defend myself to the likes of you.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #101 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat View Post

I'm assuming, then, that you haven't heard of the Downing Street Memo.

Lying to Congress is certainly grounds for impeachment, especially about critical information that led them to okay a $350 trillion war.

$350 trillion! Wow, that's a lot!

Show me that he lied to Congress. Go ahead, I'm listening.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #102 of 124
Well, back on the subject (impeaching Chimpy McFlightsuit) I just read this...

The Psychology Behind the Worst Possible President

"The small pathologies of Bush the candidate have, thanks to the purposes of the neocons and the religious right, been enhanced and upgraded. We have a bona fide madman now, who thinks of himself in a grandiose way as single-handedly turning the tide of history. Some of his Frankensteins have bailed, some haven't dared to, and others still seem to believe. His actions and his orders, especially about Iran, seem to be telling us that he will stop at nothing to prove his dominance. The elder Bush(es), Scrowcroft, Baker, and their friends, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gerson, and the neocons have made the monster and in the process endangered the country, the Constitution, and the world, not to mention the sanity of wretches like Jose Padilla..."

Forget impeachment. Can we have him committed? \
post #103 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

$350 trillion! Wow, that's a lot!

Show me that he lied to Congress. Go ahead, I'm listening.

READ.
post #104 of 124
I'm assuming then, that you STILL haven't read the Downing Street Memo.

It's the leaked minutes of a meeting between several higher ups in the British Labour Party prior to the war in Iraq. Here's the most relevant section:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Downing Street Memo

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

It was pretty important in the European media, although the American media largely glossed over it. A number of congressman and pundits, however, both conservative and liberal, have been calling for a more thorough investigation.
post #105 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

First of all, don't ever tell me who I am or presume you have the moral authority to make judgements about me. Second, you clearly don't get the joke with regard to McKinney. Having some knowledge of fairly recent news and sense of humor would help you immensely. Finally, you obviously haven't been around here too long. Nothing I've said even begins to approach what others have said in these forums over the past 7 years. Calling an idea stupid is not tantamount to calling a person stupid. In any case, I certainly don't need to defend myself to the likes of you.

, he said, in his own defense.

Oh, and what precisely are, "The like of," me? Do you know anything about me, or are you simply implying that you are superior to all other beings?

You yourself show everyone who you are through your own posts, and present an image of your own morals. Are you wise enough to ensure that that image is the one you want to present?

As to moral authority to pass judgement: Don't be a hypocrite. Have you not cast judgement on others continuously throughout this thread? As a member of society, I do have, absolutely, the right and the moral obligation to evaluate YOUR ACTIONS, and those of every other person. That is a fundamental right and responsibility of EVERY member of society, and of every individual. I will continue to do so, and when I deem your actions to warrant comment, I shall comment on them. If I feel that they need to be paraphrased to emphasize the point, I shall do that too.

Obviously I haven't been around here too long. You can tell because my join date is 07-20-2006. What's your point? I have yet to find any reasonable person who accepts blaming your own misconduct on the misconduct of others as a valid excuse. Would you try to convince us that people should not be held accountable for their actions? That's a very Left-Wing position to take.

Inflammatory language is inflammatory language.

Please act like an adult, or quit pretending to be one. The farce is tiresome.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #106 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn View Post

, he said, in his own defense.

Oh, and what precisely are, "The like of," me? Do you know anything about me, or are you simply implying that you are superior to all other beings?

You yourself show everyone who you are through your own posts, and present an image of your own morals. Are you wise enough to ensure that that image is the one you want to present?

As to moral authority to pass judgement: Don't be a hypocrite. Have you not cast judgement on others continuously throughout this thread? As a member of society, I do have, absolutely, the right and the moral obligation to evaluate YOUR ACTIONS, and those of every other person. That is a fundamental right and responsibility of EVERY member of society, and of every individual. I will continue to do so, and when I deem your actions to warrant comment, I shall comment on them. If I feel that they need to be paraphrased to emphasize the point, I shall do that too.

Obviously I haven't been around here too long. You can tell because my join date is 07-20-2006. What's your point? I have yet to find any reasonable person who accepts blaming your own misconduct on the misconduct of others as a valid excuse. Would you try to convince us that people should not be held accountable for their actions? That's a very Left-Wing position to take.

Inflammatory language is inflammatory language.

Please act like an adult, or quit pretending to be one. The farce is tiresome.


I'm not going to defend myself to you. Period.
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post #107 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'm not going to defend myself to you. Period.

Thank you. That's the kind of maturity that promotes real communication and discussion. Vastly superior to the name calling we were all participating in earlier.

Many people would have been severely provoked by my last post. Your restraint is admirable.

A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #108 of 124
Chill Celemourn. If anything you've realized the futility of ever having a reasonable exchange with SDW2001. I've tried to stay away from the political forum. I guess whenever he makes his appearance I'll split. I not going to feed a pompous troll anymore.

By the way, the impeachment process has made it's first baby step...

Legislator seeks Bush impeachment

State legislator. From New Mexico. I know. But if If the state passes it, the representative of that state may introduce it in House. This is how impeachment proceedings begin. If ever. \
post #109 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Chill Celemourn. If anything you've realized the futility of ever having a reasonable exchange with SDW2001. I've tried to stay away from the political forum. I guess whenever he makes his appearance I'll split. I not going to feed a pompous troll anymore.

By the way, the impeachment process has made it's first baby step...

Legislator seeks Bush impeachment

State legislator. From New Mexico. I know. But if If the state passes it, the representative of that state may introduce it in House. This is how impeachment proceedings begin. If ever. \

Thanks for the ad hom. Funny...your definition of reasonable seems to be "a person whom I agree with."
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #110 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

... realized the futility of ever having a reasonable exchange with SDW2001...

Reasonable conversations can be had with anyone, including SDW, whenever they choose to suppress the anger reflex and stick to keeping posts constructive. I point again to the fact that SDW has restrained himself from getting into a flame war with me. He knows how to be reasonable and mature. It's not the person which is the critical element, but the technique they use to express their ideas.

IMO, ideas are good. Emotional responses which do not align with reason (yeah, there can be a response which is both emotional and reasonable), are bad.

On reasonableness: Suppose someone is presenting an argument to which, were I to present it instead of they, I would give due consideration. If I reject that argument without due consideration, then I am being unreasonable. If I consider their argument, especially if I then accept it, then I feel I am being reasonable. In other words, if I reject something just because someone else said it, and not me, then I'm being damned unreasonable.

I feel that most arguments aught to be considered, regardless of their validity. Likewise, every person should be given basic respect, and their actions should not be seen to be THEM (Yes, I violate the principle at times. Point it out and I'll work on it).

Disagreement and dissent are good things. Yelling at and insulting people are not.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #111 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn View Post

Disagreement and dissent are good things. Yelling at and insulting people are not.

How do you discuss something to someone who'll never bothers to read or reply to the evidence you give them for review? I've done this countless times with SDW but he never reads or responds to them. His ignorance is stifling.
post #112 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celemourn View Post

...whenever they choose to suppress the anger reflex and stick to keeping posts constructive...

They have to choose to be reasonable. Often, it feels more rewarding (adrenalin rush, you know) to simply fall into verbal combat. Of course, the other person may be swayed by something you said, and simply have no reply for it.

Yet some people simply enjoy acting like assholes and goading others.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #113 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

How do you discuss something to someone who'll never bothers to read or reply to the evidence you give them for review? I've done this countless times with SDW but he never reads or responds to them. His ignorance is stifling.

Yes and then he asks for links which he imediately discredits for purely subjective reasons.




I've done the countless thing also.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #114 of 124
There is a wonderful function called "add to ignore list" or something like that, and I found, after interacting with a couple of people on these boards, that it was more worth my while to use that list and get on with life than to get bogged down in meaningless discussion with people who are incapable of discussion on any level and would have flunked my 8th-grade English as a foreign language class where the students are asked to engage in model discussions. As Celemourn rightly said, some people choose to participate in a meaningful way whereas others choose not to. It is up to us to choose when to ignore the difficult ones and go on. It could be that someone has chosen a role and is playing us as his stage.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #115 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

How do you discuss something to someone who'll never bothers to read or reply to the evidence you give them for review? I've done this countless times with SDW but he never reads or responds to them. His ignorance is stifling.

"Evidence?" What evidence? It's amazing, really. Let me guess, you'll respost the Downing Street Memo again. Jesus.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #116 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

"Evidence?" What evidence? It's amazing, really. Let me guess, you'll respost the Downing Street Memo again. Jesus.

Refute it.
post #117 of 124
Yes, let's hear your response to the Downing Street Memo.
meh
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meh
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post #118 of 124
Has yet another thread been derailed?

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #119 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

There is a wonderful function called "add to ignore list" or something like that, and I found, after interacting with a couple of people on these boards, that it was more worth my while to use that list and get on with life than to get bogged down in meaningless discussion with people who are incapable of discussion on any level and would have flunked my 8th-grade English as a foreign language class where the students are asked to engage in model discussions. As Celemourn rightly said, some people choose to participate in a meaningful way whereas others choose not to. It is up to us to choose when to ignore the difficult ones and go on. It could be that someone has chosen a role and is playing us as his stage.

Very well said.
A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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A Conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking. - Lesicus Stupidicus
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post #120 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

There is a wonderful function called "add to ignore list" or something like that, and I found, after interacting with a couple of people on these boards, that it was more worth my while to use that list and get on with life than to get bogged down in meaningless discussion with people who are incapable of discussion on any level and would have flunked my 8th-grade English as a foreign language class where the students are asked to engage in model discussions. As Celemourn rightly said, some people choose to participate in a meaningful way whereas others choose not to. It is up to us to choose when to ignore the difficult ones and go on. It could be that someone has chosen a role and is playing us as his stage.


It's the internet.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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